don't see Big Booze having to serve any sort of penalty for addiction treatment, I know a lot more addicts of alcohol than whatever drug is illegal.
Jail shouldn't be a business, there shouldn't be an incentive to send people to jail. We want to prevent police, judges, prosecutors from profiting from the kickbacks they might get if they can manage to find ways to send more people to jail.
Selective empathy is a sign that you're not in a good place. Maybe you should join a program. Definitely talk to someone about wanting to hurt people. That isn't good.
UNICOR is a wholly owned government corporation not a private company. Average cost to taxpayers per incarcerated person is about $100K. So let them work for free up until that amount.
But even if it were private, how ethically is this worse than private companies making billions building weapons of mass destruction? Or platforms of mass surveillance?
Prison-for-profit, either privately-run, with slave labor, or both, creates perverse incentives to convict more people of crimes and to keep them incarcerated longer.
This is not just hypothetical. The notorious Pennsylvania 'kids-for-cash' case was particularly egregious.
Whether someone is a criminal or not doing this work is besides the point. The person is being punished for the crime through incarceration. Having to serve as a slave in that system should be illegal.
This is btw also common practice in Germany and France. Prisoners who want access to sports, more than 1 shower a week, a TV/radio, etc ... are only able to do so when taking part in prison work.
Edit: And whether one is allowed to work, and how soon, also depends on whether one gets along with the guards. Work also decides if one can afford to fuel a nicotine or caffeine addiction - if not you have to go beg the Russians, Albanians or whoever runs that racket etc to add it to your tab that you can later pay off with interest ...
Edit-2: what most don't seem to grasp is that a large percentage point of those inside are usually on the streets in cold countries and rather get locked up than freeze to death. Another sizable percentage are refugees escaping conflict zones and that fell through the cracks of a system that should have given them ptsd treatment. Not everyone inside is there because they deserve doing time.
It's a nitpick, but that's not in the bill of rights, if you're referring to the 13th amendment. ("Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted")
Of course, the fifth amendment can be construed to take away any right as long as there's due process (which is why the state can take away 2nd amendment rights from felons)
"...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."
This doesn't really make for a compelling argument, as it's an appeal to authority without substantiation ("the majority agree with me, so I must be right")
Plus, it's a "what if" statement that completely ignores our form of government (ie, the US doesn't have national referendums)
Actually, most laws aren't in the constitution, but rather, are encoded in laws as voted on by the federal or state legislatures.
Our nation doesn't have popular sovereignty; we are based on representatives to presumably propose and vote on laws in our best interests. (Otherwise we likely wouldn't have income tax or speed limits). Remember, there was a time when a large portion of our nation thought owning humans and forcing them to work under inhumane conditions was acceptable.
However for this conversation, I'd use the spirit of checks and balances as the rule of law. The legal system has a conflict of interest when it has discretion to incarcerate those it can profit from. I agree with another comment of yours - labor to support the system is ok (since that's fairly self-balancing); labor to profit the prison system isn't.
“Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
The US has popular sovereignty- just not pure democracy. I’m ending this conversation for the sake of my sanity.
Could you please stop breaking the site guidelines? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37146068 was particularly bad, and there are other cases). We have to ban accounts that keep doing this. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules from now on, we'd appreciate it.
I don’t think this is taking the OP in good faith. People in jail are arguably “returning” the most important thing anyone can have— their time on earth.
I see a disconnect between your pargraph 1 and 2. In 2 you describe something that actually sounds reasonable - re-socializing by establishing clear rules and giving prisoners something to do to feel that they are rehabilitating in a structured way. If I were in prison I’d take a job, paid or not.
But that wasn’t your point in 1 or the rest so I’m pretty sure you think other way around, no?
I do think work is important part to rehabilitation and also meaningful to pass time. Where I have an issue with is as you point out the for-profit nature of prisons. Even in Europe where one might not immediately consider prisons to be for-profit structures, one has inmates assembling ballpoint-pens or assembling low tech items for EUR 5,30 per day. This will ensure the inmate can purchase coffee and chocolates once a fortnight. But it doesn't change their employability after release. Once they get out it is either back to crime, or straight into another state facility (homeless shelter etc). This could be different if the inmate were actually able to save up some money while there. Sure an addict will likely sound it, or they might have a chance to put it into getting help.
There is another more meta aspect to it when considering a facility location. Many times the facility is a small town and then becomes the biggest local employer. Not just for guards but also lawyers, state attorneys, social-workers, judges etc. If that facility closes down it means these people would have to relocate. This is very hard to decouple and untangle.
I had no idea that it is this way in Europe as well (PL here). Personally, I don't have an opinion to argue for either way. If anything, the whole idea that a part of rehabilitation must include being locked in with other people in an awful place is repulsive to me.
I don’t really like that prison labor is used for consumer products.
However if prisoners would like to be part of voluntary labor units that do outdoor work like tree plants, reservoir digs, and other public good/infrastructure building that would be useful and not competitive to private firms.
I’m not sure i care at all about “prison jobs” that require them to clean dishes, prepare their own food, or wash their own clothes. That is a boohoo complaint to me.
Texas limits commercial labor to products that are sold or traded with other government entities, so it's a matter of interpretation as to whether that's unfair competition (since those entities would otherwise need to purchase those goods in the free market)
I think this might be better, for similar reasons as why the daycare that started charging a late fee ended up with more late parents (by moving from a social dynamic to a financial one).
If forced labor is just part of the sentence, we can still argue over whether that is unjust punishment or not just like we do with the death penalty. But otherwise that's just how it is. Whereas "paying" inmates tens of cents an hour (3% of minimum wage) is a slap in the face from pretending it's some kind of voluntary transaction.
That raises a sticky question of how much is enough relative to the cost of their incarceration.
From a pure problem-solving standpoint, we could and probably should raise that rate by a few dollars to be put in a trust disbursed upon release to give inmates a better chance at landing some accommodation and runway to find a proper job, such that “sell drugs” doesn’t become an immediate obvious option.
Generously, the poor rate of pay seems almost the same situation as the lagging minimum wage rate. It may have once been enough (a long long time ago.) I recall reading Alcatraz inmate autobiographies as a child and recall them leaving a 10 year bank robbery sentence with enough money to find an apartment and a down payment on transportation.
Perhaps a better implementation would be $0.25 per hour goes into a canteen fund for goodies and another $4.25 per hour goes into your release trust fund? Still below minimum wage to appease any notion of inmates getting one over on hard work at the bottom rung but a rate that would possible give a chance for a successful restart.
It's a travesty that slavery is still legal in the USA. These slaves also compete against free citizens who would otherwise be employed for these positions. UNICOR isn't just stealing from inmate slaves, it is stealing from average americans who would otherwise be employed by factories making stuff that, by law, must be purchased from a company that makes in America.
I am conflicted about prison labor. When I lived in SF I volunteered at Alcatraz and remember the things produced there in the distant past. Everyone has heard of license plates. I think labor for prisoners is a good thing if it produces something good for society.
However, in my opinion the conditions in American prisons are awful to bordering inhumane. America's penal system is grossly underfunded rendering most rehabilitation efforts meaningless. When the system is properly funded and managed I think labor will see a very meaningful component of that.
> My certifications as a flagger and forklift driver have proved incapable of outshining the glaring label of convicted felon that accompanies them on applications.
Perhaps the market is behaving irrationally by not valuing convicted felons appropriately. The places that seem to be successful look like they usually make hiring criminals part of their brand like Dave's Killer Bread.
It is as relevant as people's experience and certifications.
Societies laws are not particularly difficult to follow even if you disagree with them, if someone I work has chosen not to follow those laws to a degree that they have been imprisoned by a jury of their peer's I think it is as relevant as their previous roles + educational attainment.
59 comments
[ 5.0 ms ] story [ 129 ms ] threadJail shouldn't be a business, there shouldn't be an incentive to send people to jail. We want to prevent police, judges, prosecutors from profiting from the kickbacks they might get if they can manage to find ways to send more people to jail.
But even if it were private, how ethically is this worse than private companies making billions building weapons of mass destruction? Or platforms of mass surveillance?
I disapprove of my government using WMDs and I also disapprove of my government enslaving murderers. Whom benefits is besides the point.
Seems to he false? For Federal inmates anyway..
It was just $35k back in 2019. So it can’t be much more than half of what you’re claiming these days.
* https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/09/01/2021-18...
> how ethically is this worse than private companies making billions building weapons of mass destruction? Or platforms of mass surveillance?
Doesn’t seem to be even tangentially related?
Subsidize losses.
This is not just hypothetical. The notorious Pennsylvania 'kids-for-cash' case was particularly egregious.
https://www.npr.org/2022/08/18/1118108084/michael-conahan-ma...
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/cca-private-pri...
This is btw also common practice in Germany and France. Prisoners who want access to sports, more than 1 shower a week, a TV/radio, etc ... are only able to do so when taking part in prison work.
Edit: And whether one is allowed to work, and how soon, also depends on whether one gets along with the guards. Work also decides if one can afford to fuel a nicotine or caffeine addiction - if not you have to go beg the Russians, Albanians or whoever runs that racket etc to add it to your tab that you can later pay off with interest ...
Edit-2: what most don't seem to grasp is that a large percentage point of those inside are usually on the streets in cold countries and rather get locked up than freeze to death. Another sizable percentage are refugees escaping conflict zones and that fell through the cracks of a system that should have given them ptsd treatment. Not everyone inside is there because they deserve doing time.
Good luck with that. Legal slavery is literally codified into our bill of rights.
Of course, the fifth amendment can be construed to take away any right as long as there's due process (which is why the state can take away 2nd amendment rights from felons)
"...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."
I guess the fact that it hasn’t been amended shows everyone how expendable they truly are.
Plus, it's a "what if" statement that completely ignores our form of government (ie, the US doesn't have national referendums)
Our nation doesn't have popular sovereignty; we are based on representatives to presumably propose and vote on laws in our best interests. (Otherwise we likely wouldn't have income tax or speed limits). Remember, there was a time when a large portion of our nation thought owning humans and forcing them to work under inhumane conditions was acceptable.
However for this conversation, I'd use the spirit of checks and balances as the rule of law. The legal system has a conflict of interest when it has discretion to incarcerate those it can profit from. I agree with another comment of yours - labor to support the system is ok (since that's fairly self-balancing); labor to profit the prison system isn't.
“Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
The US has popular sovereignty- just not pure democracy. I’m ending this conversation for the sake of my sanity.
The goal of the prison system should be rehabilitation. Punishment doesn’t mean anything if you’ve got nothing waiting for you on the outside.
But that wasn’t your point in 1 or the rest so I’m pretty sure you think other way around, no?
There is another more meta aspect to it when considering a facility location. Many times the facility is a small town and then becomes the biggest local employer. Not just for guards but also lawyers, state attorneys, social-workers, judges etc. If that facility closes down it means these people would have to relocate. This is very hard to decouple and untangle.
I'm reminded of this video: https://youtu.be/cX-r5ulpoQQ
However if prisoners would like to be part of voluntary labor units that do outdoor work like tree plants, reservoir digs, and other public good/infrastructure building that would be useful and not competitive to private firms.
I’m not sure i care at all about “prison jobs” that require them to clean dishes, prepare their own food, or wash their own clothes. That is a boohoo complaint to me.
If forced labor is just part of the sentence, we can still argue over whether that is unjust punishment or not just like we do with the death penalty. But otherwise that's just how it is. Whereas "paying" inmates tens of cents an hour (3% of minimum wage) is a slap in the face from pretending it's some kind of voluntary transaction.
From a pure problem-solving standpoint, we could and probably should raise that rate by a few dollars to be put in a trust disbursed upon release to give inmates a better chance at landing some accommodation and runway to find a proper job, such that “sell drugs” doesn’t become an immediate obvious option.
Generously, the poor rate of pay seems almost the same situation as the lagging minimum wage rate. It may have once been enough (a long long time ago.) I recall reading Alcatraz inmate autobiographies as a child and recall them leaving a 10 year bank robbery sentence with enough money to find an apartment and a down payment on transportation.
Perhaps a better implementation would be $0.25 per hour goes into a canteen fund for goodies and another $4.25 per hour goes into your release trust fund? Still below minimum wage to appease any notion of inmates getting one over on hard work at the bottom rung but a rate that would possible give a chance for a successful restart.
Of course given fair wages, there would be outcry from the unincarcerated as to why they can't do those jobs for the state.
However, in my opinion the conditions in American prisons are awful to bordering inhumane. America's penal system is grossly underfunded rendering most rehabilitation efforts meaningless. When the system is properly funded and managed I think labor will see a very meaningful component of that.
Perhaps the market is behaving irrationally by not valuing convicted felons appropriately. The places that seem to be successful look like they usually make hiring criminals part of their brand like Dave's Killer Bread.
Why does the government continue to punish someone after they’ve served their sentence allowing employers to pry into their background?
Societies laws are not particularly difficult to follow even if you disagree with them, if someone I work has chosen not to follow those laws to a degree that they have been imprisoned by a jury of their peer's I think it is as relevant as their previous roles + educational attainment.