This lies squarely with Google. I bought a fully functional 11 inch acer intel touchscreen Chromebook for 25 on eBay which got its last update last year. I converted it to Ubuntu which was a pain
interesting. Just how cheap are they, and how cut down can we make them, and are they easy to jailbreak? I'd love to play around with some for making into servers or even pi-like things for robotics
Chromebooks are among the better-documented and more open hardware platforms. The document above indicates how to disable firmware write protection both within and without the operating system.
It also includes this quote:
> Since the start of the project, the Chrome OS team strongly believes that when someone buys a device, they own it fully. ... To that end, we strongly believe that users must be free to fully program their device in any way they want.
Can you point to any ChromeOS devices that have violated this principle?
I have an Acer Chromebook. It dual boots into debian but in order to remove the chrome OS I think I have to unscrew some part and then short a couple of pins somewhere. This is the best I can remember. I read those instructions like 6 years ago and never bothered to try and follow them.
Oh it looks so easy now. Like I said it's been a few years since I read those instructions so things have probably changed. And I haven't actually used my chromebook since I lost the power cable in 2019.
Opening the laptop would not void any warranty in the EU, or US.
That is FUD. Manufacturers can not prevent people from "opening their devices" with threats of voiding warranty, and even putting the stickers that say that are illegal for which the FTC sent a latter to many manufacturers including Apple to tell them to knock that off.
Last time I looked into this, some models came with UEFI or BIOS booting built into the board firmware and just needed a flag set in developer mode on Chrome OS, but on other models this code was either absent or too buggy to be usable. On those models, you needed to flash an updated/modded version of the firmware, which usually required removing a specific screw that doubles as a jumper to enable/disable writing the chip.
They were always a terrible deal for schools. They were just a less terrible deal that the original status quo, at least here in the UK, of overpriced education supplier sourced PCs and unnecessary use of VMware.
Surely we can do better than this both software and hardware wise.
All laptops become e-waste, why are chromebooks different? They were made with low specs, presumably they become obsolete sooner. But then again, I doubt most laptop users have their laptop more than 3 years.
Most other laptops, even low end ones, can have new life breathed into them as laptops with a lightweight Linux distribution or even take on entirely new uses like a Plex/Kodi box or retro emulator box hooked up to the TV, power efficient file server, smart home control hub, etc — basically anything one might use a Pi for, an old laptop can do just as well or better.
This is impractical on most Chromebooks because of how locked into Chrome OS they are. They're more like cheap Android phones with locked bootloaders than they are proper laptops.
Coincidentally I'm about 2.5 years into daily-driving a ThinkPad X230 (made in 2012/2013 or so), which I bought secondhand and am running OpenBSD on. Computers could be used a lot longer than they typically are. This one's now surpassing 10 years :)
Honestly the only thing stopping me from toting around an old low value laptop is their battery life, which is generally awful. The modern web making their fans get angry and noisy also isn’t great, and barrel jack PSUs are a pain compared to USB-C PD.
It’d be cool if there were efforts to sell kits that allow users to outfit old laptops with higher-capacity (but not physically larger) batteries, quieter cooling, and USB-PD.
Yeah for sure, it's frustrating how there aren't readily-available OEM-quality aftermarket batteries available for older laptops. On the upside as for the barrel jack connectors, you can often get multi-connector AC adapters even with variable voltage output switches. My goal is to figure out a singular solar-charged power source for all my portable devices with built-in batteries, to hopefully have some kind of device-agnostic solution, longer-term... Quite the hassle to figure it all out though!
Any CPU made around or after the time of the Core 2 Duo can still be a perfectly serviceable main computer. Back in the 90s and 00s older CPUs were literally too slow but we passed the MVP threshold around the C2D and now they’re all pretty solid.
There's a difference between "this will eventually stop being usable" and "we enforced a hard cutoff for software updates, including security patches, which artificially forced a device to stop being usable". I'm typing this on a decade-old laptop that's perfectly good even though its manufacturer has long-since given up on it, precisely because it just keeps getting software updates regardless (AIUI, even Windows would still support it, so a normal user would be fine too).
My understanding is that the cutoff is determined by the component manufacturers refusing to provide firmware updates. Microsoft does not directly support all hardware configurations, and manufacturers have more incentive to support Windows/general purpose hardware long-term. ChromeOS has much lower market share so manufacturers have no incentive beyond what Google can incentivize monetarily (i.e., pay them to do it at a loss).
It's also a matter of decoupling; a machine running Windows (for example) might have ancient firmware, but at least it can run a current version of Chrome and Windows, which means that it degrades gracefully.
You're not most laptop users though. I try to take care of my hardware, even though I've been averaging 1 laptop every 3 years the past 15. I have friends with old thinkpads too, but I don't think they represent most laptop users.
So if a school buys 100 thinkpads, and 100 chromebooks, how long do you think they will last?
They will all become e-waste sooner or later, and most likely sooner in an education environment where they're being lent out to pupils.
There is a bigger problem at play here, a massive culture of consumption. I fail to see how pointing the finger at chromebooks specifically is more than a distraction.
I have relatives who run Windows and who I believe are "normal" users who tend to replace laptops on a much longer cycle than that.
> So if a school buys 100 thinkpads, and 100 chromebooks, how long do you think they will last?
As things currently stand, both will suffer hardware failures at alarming rates because children are terrifying and have very active lifestyles, but the thinkpads will only stop being useful when the hardware dies, while the Chromebooks will be artificially capped by their software, resulting in the thinkpads outliving them.
> I fail to see how pointing the finger at chromebooks specifically is more than a distraction.
Because Chromebooks force the machine to become e-waste regardless of how worn the hardware is. Everything may suck, but they suck more and on purpose.
> I fail to see how pointing the finger at chromebooks specifically is more than a distraction.
They have a built-in kill switch. After pre-set number of years (from launch and not from purchase) they become useless to schools.
Macs and PCs only die when they die, not when they hit their cut-off date. At that point the other devices have resale values and 'expired' Chromebooks don't.
> There is a bigger problem at play here, a massive culture of consumption.
Then pointing the finger at Chromebooks is extremely relevant, as enforced lifetime limits lead to (relatively) rapidly replaced devices with no future beyond landfill and more consumption.
>>I doubt most laptop users have their laptop more than 3 years.
More and more companies are moving to 4 and 5 year replacement cycle. The average today for my company is 4.5 years between replacement laptops for the average employee.
For desktops it is 7-8 with some going to 10 years for replacements.
Then they are wiped and given to employee's who continue to use them for many more years. I have given my parents one of these both are still using it, one of which was ironically reimaged from Win7 to CloudReady (now called ChomeOS Flex) and it is still going strong today more than 10 years after its manufacture date.
I tend to get new machines pretty often, but I’m also using old machines for 7-10 years. OldNew laptop becomes the bedroom/backup laptop. Bedroom laptop becomes couch surfing laptop. Or a machine gets converted to Plex duty, etc. Also I hand down machines to my kids, donate to kids at school, etc.
Chromebooks are different because they were created by Google and you are an absolute fool to think you will get long term support from them. Or any support at all. Google has never, ever been in the business of support.
I’m surprised that the mention of Google hasn’t yet tarnished a brand. They’re just a big tech incumbent.
For some with Intel or AMD X86 chips, Mr. Chromebox offers a BIOS that will allow another OS to be installed. I got a few more years out of Acer Chrombook with this BIOS and an 2.5" SSD upgrade.
This is a good point, actually I think schools should buy the leftover devices and then run linux on them so kids can be learning things like django at school.
I don't know about the good deal but the e-waste part was clear from the beginning. No surprise. It's written on the package.
For this reason, and the part where the children's privacy is sold to Google, and the part where the children are taught to rely on someone else's computer (in particular big US corps), and the part where the pupils need to agree to some private corp's ToS for what is mandatory and public, schools should never have signed for this. No, it was not a good deal.
Could not agree more. Google is nothing but assaulting the integrity of the educational system and well-being of the children and our common future. The value is not only not added, but is taken away from the educational process. I thought Microsoft was evil in the 90s, but seeing this soulless monster of a corporation anywhere near my children feels like a freaking horror movie.
I'm real confused by the comments here. Chromebooks were most definitely a good deal for schools. They are incredibly cheap; half of the appeal to me is that they are effectively disposable and don't need to be fawned over. Who cares if they can't be squeezed for the same length as a $1000 laptop? You can buy three of them.
The problem I see is that school budgets don't account for such expenses on the regular, so schools end up using hardware for years and years after EOL.
> The problem I see is that school budgets don't account for such expenses on the regular, so schools end up using hardware for years and years after EOL.
That's a meaningful distinction; most hardware can keep running current software for a long time after it's theoretically EOL, but Chromebooks stop updating their software outright when the hardware falls out of support.
Everybody should care. Producing a laptop has a high environmental and human cost. A school throwing away hundreds of computer has an impact on me, you and every other living being on this planet.
A disposable laptop is an absurd concept. The idea itself should feel appalling.
>half of the appeal to me is that they are effectively disposable and don't need to be fawned over.
Maybe there's a hidden cost to pay for making e-waste disposable hardware which is felt at the environmental level.
I'm pretty disturbed at how this waste is not considered in the rich west, as it only looks at the monetary cost of the device and not at the fact that those devices most likely end up in landfills much sooner than should be accepted.
Just becasue we can financially accept such a thing, doesn't mean we should, for the sake of the environment.
I've gone through a few Chromebooks but what is, or perhaps is not, surprising is that I haven't gone through them at a meaningfully different rate than regular laptops. Given that, it seems like a net win, at least for me. You can't seriously say that the likes of HP or Dell have not simply extorting the school system for years. My Chromebooks are just as durable.
Besides, after several years of use by kids, I have a hard time imagining these things becoming anything other than waste.
And where I live in the west, I pay an additional tax for products which create e-waste (namely consumer electronics) and I must dispose of them at appropriate facilities. E-waste is definitely a problem but it's not a relevant factor here as far as I can tell.
What's actually expiring in these machines? They are built on known technologies like BIOS, ARM, Wi-Fi. In other computers and laptops, I can update the software for 8-10+ years before stuff gets screwy. I get that they can stop updates due to minimum RAM or display resolution requirements, but this isn't that.
This isn't the case for Android because of the SOC blob and how entwined it is with the Linux kernel, but that reasoning doesn't apply here.
67 comments
[ 4.6 ms ] story [ 96.4 ms ] threadI could just install Linux but the battery is definitely worse when not on chromeOS
You probably want one that supports uefi firmware, which I think is libreboot.
Chromebooks are among the better-documented and more open hardware platforms. The document above indicates how to disable firmware write protection both within and without the operating system.
It also includes this quote:
> Since the start of the project, the Chrome OS team strongly believes that when someone buys a device, they own it fully. ... To that end, we strongly believe that users must be free to fully program their device in any way they want.
Can you point to any ChromeOS devices that have violated this principle?
If this is the case, then why doesn't Google provide an official utility to install another OS on it?
At least it was possible to hack the devices, but no such bullshit is ever necessary on any regular laptop.
Opening the laptop would not void any warranty in the EU, or US.
That is FUD. Manufacturers can not prevent people from "opening their devices" with threats of voiding warranty, and even putting the stickers that say that are illegal for which the FTC sent a latter to many manufacturers including Apple to tell them to knock that off.
Surely we can do better than this both software and hardware wise.
This is impractical on most Chromebooks because of how locked into Chrome OS they are. They're more like cheap Android phones with locked bootloaders than they are proper laptops.
Relevant: "how and why I stopped buying new laptops" https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/12/how-and-why-i-stop...
It’d be cool if there were efforts to sell kits that allow users to outfit old laptops with higher-capacity (but not physically larger) batteries, quieter cooling, and USB-PD.
It is unfortunate if you get yours eg. one year before the end of the prescribed lifecycle.
So if a school buys 100 thinkpads, and 100 chromebooks, how long do you think they will last?
They will all become e-waste sooner or later, and most likely sooner in an education environment where they're being lent out to pupils.
There is a bigger problem at play here, a massive culture of consumption. I fail to see how pointing the finger at chromebooks specifically is more than a distraction.
> So if a school buys 100 thinkpads, and 100 chromebooks, how long do you think they will last?
As things currently stand, both will suffer hardware failures at alarming rates because children are terrifying and have very active lifestyles, but the thinkpads will only stop being useful when the hardware dies, while the Chromebooks will be artificially capped by their software, resulting in the thinkpads outliving them.
> I fail to see how pointing the finger at chromebooks specifically is more than a distraction.
Because Chromebooks force the machine to become e-waste regardless of how worn the hardware is. Everything may suck, but they suck more and on purpose.
They have a built-in kill switch. After pre-set number of years (from launch and not from purchase) they become useless to schools.
Macs and PCs only die when they die, not when they hit their cut-off date. At that point the other devices have resale values and 'expired' Chromebooks don't.
> There is a bigger problem at play here, a massive culture of consumption.
Then pointing the finger at Chromebooks is extremely relevant, as enforced lifetime limits lead to (relatively) rapidly replaced devices with no future beyond landfill and more consumption.
More and more companies are moving to 4 and 5 year replacement cycle. The average today for my company is 4.5 years between replacement laptops for the average employee.
For desktops it is 7-8 with some going to 10 years for replacements.
Then they are wiped and given to employee's who continue to use them for many more years. I have given my parents one of these both are still using it, one of which was ironically reimaged from Win7 to CloudReady (now called ChomeOS Flex) and it is still going strong today more than 10 years after its manufacture date.
I’m surprised that the mention of Google hasn’t yet tarnished a brand. They’re just a big tech incumbent.
https://mrchromebox.tech/#home
One can run ChromeOS on old, used devices. They won't have quite the same security, but are a lot better than nothing.
But repeats of the same basic story make it to the frontpage multiple times per month:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36857506
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35667547
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37006174
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35649281
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36871178
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35632233
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36083380
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36857208
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36114532
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36863095
https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366
For this reason, and the part where the children's privacy is sold to Google, and the part where the children are taught to rely on someone else's computer (in particular big US corps), and the part where the pupils need to agree to some private corp's ToS for what is mandatory and public, schools should never have signed for this. No, it was not a good deal.
It's sad Google seems to be the only player in this space who really cares about security. Every other OS is a shitshow by comparison.
The problem I see is that school budgets don't account for such expenses on the regular, so schools end up using hardware for years and years after EOL.
Either way, seems like a good deal to me.
That's a meaningful distinction; most hardware can keep running current software for a long time after it's theoretically EOL, but Chromebooks stop updating their software outright when the hardware falls out of support.
A disposable laptop is an absurd concept. The idea itself should feel appalling.
Maybe there's a hidden cost to pay for making e-waste disposable hardware which is felt at the environmental level.
I'm pretty disturbed at how this waste is not considered in the rich west, as it only looks at the monetary cost of the device and not at the fact that those devices most likely end up in landfills much sooner than should be accepted.
Just becasue we can financially accept such a thing, doesn't mean we should, for the sake of the environment.
Besides, after several years of use by kids, I have a hard time imagining these things becoming anything other than waste.
And where I live in the west, I pay an additional tax for products which create e-waste (namely consumer electronics) and I must dispose of them at appropriate facilities. E-waste is definitely a problem but it's not a relevant factor here as far as I can tell.
This isn't the case for Android because of the SOC blob and how entwined it is with the Linux kernel, but that reasoning doesn't apply here.
It'll never work.
All that is needed for teaching is a teacher with a blackboard, and a student with pencil and paper. Right up through quantum mechanics.