Ask HN: Is My Career Salvagable?
A brief overview of my career:
Small Independent Company: First software job I ever got. I was hired as a contractor for a brief stint to help a very small company. The work mostly consisted of developing what was basically a small ETL tool to merge and normalize data from two different sources. The work was mostly modern PHP, but without any frameworks.
Small State Government Agency: Worked in a small team, but most projects were assigned to the different developers independently. The autonomy was nice, but the money was embarrassingly low. Most of the work I did was standing up new (albeit simple, low volume) CRUD applications. Mostly using old .NET frameworks. I left about about a year or two for better money.
Regional F500: Larger team and more collaborative environment, but I actually did very little work as bureaucracies just slowed my projects to a halt most of the time. The work I did do was mostly minor maintenance on old legacy internal business .NET applications. The company was beginning to embrace more modern technology and cloud platforms, but not the team I was on. I again left after a year or two, mostly because they RTO'd after covid and I had started to like remote work.
Small SaaS Company: My last job. Got hired on during the big hiring boom in 2021. Worked on a small team mostly doing integration work between the SaaS and various customer platforms. Tech was a little better, using newer .NET frameworks, and modern cloud technloogies, but it was all still very shallow. Things were going good for a bit, but the company ended up making some bad strategy bets, and in the midst of that post-covid market, ended up laying off half the company prior to a rebrand. This was last year and led to where I am now.
I have been searching for jobs forever now and I can't find any work. Most of the jobs require vast experience with tools or platforms I just haven't ever used professionally. Often stressing those skills above the programming skills. Many times its not even something you can just spin up yourself to do a side project with. But even jobs that seem a perfect match for my resume and history don't go anywhere anymore. There's a lot of stuff I've learned on my own or on the job, but very tangential to the actual work, and not to the extent that companies want. When I do get interviews, I mostly get ghosted and occasionally rejected, sometimes after the first round, sometimes after the final round. I thought I could at least go back to working on legacy stuff at slow non tech companies, but they don't even want me anymore. I've done some more interesting things outside of work, but they sound more impressive than they really were. I'd like to think I'm pretty good and quick at figuring things out as I go, but not being able to instantly recall things on the spot. I used to at least be able to get a lot of recruiters in my inbox, but not anymore. I've had two since August, and they mostly ghost me as well. It seems like everyone wants a specialist now, but I never got the chance to specialize.
I even have gotten a few referrals from people I know who think I would be good for a position, only to get grilled by hiring managers and recruiters for not hitting their checklist. Maybe the short tenures are killing me, but really I think going into this field of work was a mistake. Unfortunately, there's no realistic alternative except to work for barely livable wages given my lack of credentials. I started programming as a kid, and always knew I wouldn't like it make it in the industry. Now I hate it, but I need to know if it's worth even trying to salvage my career now, or if I should just cut my losses.
39 comments
[ 4.1 ms ] story [ 84.4 ms ] threadSecond, it's not you, it's the programmer labor market. There were a lot of layoffs in Big Tech in the first half of 2023, and the labor market hasn't absorbed all of that yet. It will, and then being a programmer will be a good job again.
Third, to survive in the meantime, you may have to take a crap job for a bit, if you are having trouble paying the rent. That doesn't mean you should stop programming, but you do what you have to do. If you have a cushion to survive on, great, but don't be afraid to take a low-wage, non-professional job for a year if that's what's required. By the way, lots of small to medium sized businesses, if they find out one of their line workers (whatever that is for that industry) can work with computers, will start putting them to work on that (though you would have to be willing to be a jack-of-all-trades). It's not guaranteed, but it happens.
Fourth, remind yourself frequently that this is not about you, it's about the particular place the programmer market is now. You need to have an optimistic attitude going into an interview, so make it part of your interview-readiness routine to keep focusing on positives. One case where "fake it 'til you make it" is a good idea.
Fifth, there has been a shortage of programmers for every year in the last thirty except for probably 2001, 2008, and 2023. It will pass. Just do what you have to do to keep your head above water until then.
I keep hearing this, but then I’ll see the opposite, that the market has already corrected and it’s just incompetents that joined the industry in the times of low interest rates can’t get hired now. It seems about 50/50 what I see and hear.
> Third, to survive in the meantime, you may have to take a crap job for a bit
I’m definitely trying, but even this feels difficult in spite of the constant new about how great the general job market is.
Depending on who you talk to you will get wildly different assessments of the same information. Follow the money. Most of the people telling you its an employers job market are doing so because they want to hire you at lower rates and get your expectations down.
The right company matched with the correct skills and person can make both parties happy. The fact that we've been chasing this ghost for years doesn't mean it doesn't exist... its just really fucking difficult.
We were luckier before, I don't know how else to process it currently.
One good tactic is to have a friend or former coworker look at your resume, and let you know what they think. An outside pair of eyes can help. Also, perhaps find someone who can do a practice interview with you (again, perhaps a former coworker or friend in the industry who knows how these go), they may be able to tell you if you're doing something that is off-putting, without you even realizing you're doing it.
Just keep plugging away. You only need one job interview to go well, and if you keep making enough "shots on goal", you will get one, and then the number of misses before that will not matter.
The last company I worked for definitely did this, so the layoff was no surprise, but what I don’t get is why I’m having trouble finding work at non tech companies. 3-4 years ago I could get interviews at F500 type companies no issue even from cold applications. Did they participate in over-hiring too?
What made you think that? It sounds like you might have some self esteem issues that should be addressed. Not all tech work is glamorous, but if you can solve real world business problems, you would be employable. Sometimes lack of confidence can turn a potential employer off. Not every employer will directly ask you this, but have a good answer for: “what piece of software did you write that you are most proud of?” Think about it and what you’ve learned and hopefully that will translate to improved reception.
Not really an esteem issue (though the current situation doesn’t help that), but as a hobbyist there was an appeal to the creative freedom, that would be lacking in a professional environment. I didn’t initially plan to go into programming professionally, at least not when/how I did, but my initial plans fell through and I figured my best option was to make use of that skill, in a time when it was easier to enter the field. Now it’s just hard to tell if I made it in because of the hype surrounding the field in the 2010s or because I was competent enough to.
Also the benefits were not that great from what I remember. Ima few years in private industry, I was making more than the director of the department with a better benefits packages. The only people making good money in state government there were tenured professors and football coaches.
Feel free to contact me via my phone number in my profile if you would like to bounce ideas off of me. (Nothing to sell, but when I worked for other people it was also a bad economy and I had a bunch of working strategies to find jobs quickly.)
You could need practice in the technical portion or perhaps you come off as too arrogant or not confident enough or any number of things.
I have had a very similar experience. I'm dealing with the burnout. It's like that software analogy of building a new plane to jump into as you get out of the old one. Except your plane is falling apart too fast and there aren't enough parts left to make a new plane. You are still falling at 300 feet per second and everybody you talk to about your problem can't understand why you won't just suck it up and accept your fate.
I'm super lucky that I'm in a stable but boring job. My boss is kind and understanding. The main anxiety I experience is the weird culture and pace of work, but the same fear you express about bad things happening and being left behind is still present even though my job is secure for now. It's an ok job for now but it's not where I belong long-term and that gives me the same feelings I had when I was unemployed for 1+ year / months at a time.
I can't tell you what will work, but I can tell you what I'm doing.
1. I have created a youtube channel where I film my outdoor adventures. I'm not suggesting you become a youtuber but I am suggesting you find a way to do things you enjoy and document them. I would never give myself credit for what I do (I still suck at this) but when I upload a video I can't help but give myself credit for work done even though I'm an unproductive and useless piece of shit or whatever my traumatized brain has cooked up this date
2. I am creating a website to sell fishing lures. You. mentioned the issue with getting tooling spun up that's too much for one man... I had this issue going from docker to kubernetes and I never really had the professional support to make it to K8. Eventually I realized I hated managing infrastructure and even though I'm an API guy I have been working on next.js sites to just MAKE STUFF and work on doing things even if what I'm doing at work is unproductive from a career perspective
3. Therapy. I'm in it. It's taken over a year to get some real progress, and im on my second therapist. First one was OK but didn't specialize in ADHD / Aspergers which led to a sort of impasse of progress. Find the right person who you trust. It matters so much. Therapy has gotten me to a point where I view medication as something that can help me deal with my situation vs "everyone wants to drug me into submission".
4. I quit drinking over a year ago and I think for the past 4-5 years I was functionally alcoholic as I prolonged my burnout and subsequent job struggle. Drinking wasn't the problem for performing work, the issue was that it was used on a daily basis to numb myself to the pain and suffering of what was going on. Alcohol is remarkably effective at this, and in my opinion too effective. I lost a ton of weight, i've never felt better and i never get hangovers. I won't drink alcohol ever again and the reasons I've stuck with it have changed... but its gone from a thing where I wish I could have a drink to I straight up just don't want it anymore because I like the better me I am without it.
Find ways to reconnect with what you enjoyed in the early days of programming. For me it's creating a robot that draws pictures of people. I want it to work before I share it with the world. Find a thing you can put 30mins or an hour into each day and grow into something that matters to you. Your vibe will attract your tribe. Three years ago I uploaded a video of me ice skating and now I have new friends to do activities with and my work is being taken seriously (by an advertiser) in a new career space.
I don't know if I'm ever going to get a real developer job again. I want it. I miss PRs and code review and system design and real database interactions. For whatever reason I cannot communicate my skills and experiences ...
My only recommendation is that you reach out to non-fully remote small companies/startups. Those are likely to not have automatic resume filters and they are likely to have few enough decent applicants that they'll give you a try.
- an economic slowdown (anyone with a pulse can get a job in the good times)
- lack of skills
- lack of jobs in region
- depression
- unrealistic salary expectations
- lack of motivation
...and so on.
What I can do give some basic pointers that might hold them back. For example, one time a candidate of mine got rejected because the hiring manager didn't like his mullet. I told that to him that in confidence and forgot about it. A few years later he was one of my interviewers for a job, reminded me of that, and thanked me because he started getting job offers shortly after cutting off the "party in the back" part of "business in the front, party in the back" :)
Engineer types don't readily fit into that world, but we serve them just the same.
Are you looking for work or looking for a full time w2 job situation?
Market is down all around, but you might want to explore freelance or contracting if you haven't explored those yet.
Most metro markets have multiple tech recruiter/contracting houses that have connections with regional employers. Many of those employers don't advertise much publicly, but do use recruiters to fill their positions (temp or perm).
These have been the ones that ghost me the most. I’ve gotten plenty of messages from these types of recruiters who claim they have some positions that would be a good fit for me, they call me to briefly chat about what they have, and then disappear.
If you have not yet, I would suggest proactively reaching out to them, vs responding to the ones who reach out to you. Many times by the time they are cold emailing, they're relatively desperate, and may not want to spend much time unless you are a perfect fit immediately for what's on their plate.