Also worth considering is what connections in this case were on a VPN. Cloudflare is set up on a lot of websites to be difficult for VPN users, intentionally or no. Not sure about this domain in particular or if it even uses cloudflare.
Not really, WhatsApp is used in Europe, Middle East and India. Japan, Taiwan, Thailand, South Korea are on Line. China Weibo I think. Even in the West the market is fragmented with Signal, Telegram, Facebook Messenger, Instagram, Discord, etc.
This is mostly apocryphal in the US as well, according to my school-age kids. They’ve been in many peer text chains over the years in several SoCal schools, and they’re invariably multi-platform (i.e. good ol’ green SMS/MMS).
There are multiple versions of the iPhone. What’s wrong with an iPhone SE? The latest version is 430$ retail, I’m sure you can find used for probably half the price.
Honestly, its like the best iPhone. Can't understand this obsession with phablets and phones you can use as a ski hill because their cameras are so freakishly large.
To each their own. I certainly understand why the SE is a great phone for many people. For many people, the phone is their primary or only computer, and the size tradeoff makes more sense.
> because their cameras are so freakishly large
But those freakishly large cameras are what makes the tradeoff of a larger device worthwhile for me personally.
This phone’s size is nothing compared to my photography gear. The quality of photo/video I can get means I spend less time lugging the heavy stuff. It’s not a small phone by any means. But then again, I very rarely use it as a phone.
I like to think of it more like a Tricorder/universal computing device than a phone. But that’s just me.
Yeah, if its for photography obviously its a non-issue. I just take issue with the notion that the average user is a photographer for whom such a permanent physical reality is acceptable. Most people don't need their pictures to be "that good" that it justifies the several hundred extra g of weight and awkward physical format required to meet those demands.
I take issue with the notion that the average user even feels that extra weight in their pocket or finds the physical format difficult.
OK I don’t really take issue with it but still. I have a small child, I want photos of said child to be good. I care more about that than a little extra weight in my pocket.
Its not the pocket thats the issue, its the holding and using with one's hand(s) ergonomically and without causing long-term issues. Should have been more direct about that.
If Google have added, as is rumoured, a desktop mode like Samsung DEX to the upcoming Pixel 8, I will be purchasing one immediately, if not it will be a Samsung Galaxy S22. I'll probably still get an iPhone but if I end up taking to Android then the iPhone may well end up getting ditched in a few years. I'm also going to be selling my Macbook Pro soon and relying solely on the Android phone in combination with some AR glasses and a QuadLock swappable battery pack for extra juice. I'm moving over to Codespaces for all dev work, GeForce Now for gaming, and if I ever want to do anything like video editing or AI work in the future I'll just spin up a suitable cloud instance for it. I realise I'm currently in the minority with this hardware setup, but I think more and more people are going to start doing the same, particularly as 5G internet, satellite and high speed fibre continues to roll out in more places and companies perfect their cloud apps.
It seems like Apple is sleeping on this and I genuinely think it might end up contributing heavily to their downfall. They've bet it all on hardware and services and if hardware sales decline, which is looking likely through China's recent moves, I don't think the current services offering is going to cover the shortfall.
Microsoft is looking very strong atm and has made some very savvy investments. They've already got the gaming market, which is now a bigger industry than music and film combined. Between VSCode and Github they're starting to corner the dev market. I've been exploring Azure the past week and I'm quite impressed with it, seems much easier to learn than AWS. They've had the business market cornered for years. And to top it all off they've got a huge stake in the biggest AI company. I really think we might see Microsoft becoming dominant again within the next ten years.
That’s what I have my iPad for: attach it to an external monitor, add keyboard and mouse and you have something that works really well for 90% of the use cases. It’s not well suited for programming, unless you’re the type of developer that does everything remotely through ssh and vim.
Chromebooks had basically the same appeal, just different workloads. It’s nice for some, but a large percent of folks will prefer to work locally. I think you’re right more folks will move this way in the future, but I don’t think it overlaps significantly with Apple’s market share.
I also am not convinced Apple is sleeping on this - they have been investing more into removing seams in integration between devices (iPhone as MacBook camera, watch as phone, tablet as monitor, MacBook as compute/desktop for vision pro). I think their vision of the cloud is a tangible, product-driven one, and despite how effectively you could move compute to the cloud, people still love buying shiny devices, and Apple has that down to an art. I also would not doubt Apple has something interesting for cloud-like integration up their sleeve in the next few years. As with anything, they won’t be first to market, but they’ll probably be the instant premium default when they do enter.
For those watching closely, Apple has been pushing more focus on gaming in their devices (Apple Arcade, BG3 expos in WWDC/product launch keynotes, Hideo Kohima partnership for Silicon native ports, Unity partnership, etc). I think they are testing the waters here, but I would not be surprised if they open the floodgates some day soon. Historical gaming on Macs hasn’t been great, but Windows certainly is not entrenched here. The latest M processors are more than capable enough to run most modern games at fairly impressive settings, and this will only improve as more devs target builds for the platform.
It's hard to imagine the market shifting entirely to one side when it's between a quality (if pricey and controlling) product and a spyware platform that exists solely to push ads. Manufacturers allowing themselves to get fully tied to becoming Google subcontractors has absolutely destroyed them.
What choice do manufacturers have? Apple won't let them license iOS. Microsoft won't let them license Windows Phone/Windows Mobile and anyway Microsoft sabotaged that. Blackberry X wasn't licensable either. KaiOS is Android underneath and less capable on top. Samsung has gobs of money and couldn't make Tizen work. Amazon Fire Phone was a joke in the market (although the hardware was nice).
If you want to make and sell phones and you're not Apple, Android is it, take it or leave it, for better or worse.
> Microsoft won't let them license Windows Phone/Windows Mobile and anyway Microsoft sabotaged that.
Google sabotaged that by refusing to support YouTube on windows mobile and actively blocking Microsoft’s native app. Honestly surprised they didn’t get destroyed by anti-trust laws.
As for licensing, they absolutely offered to license it to vendors, they were all in bed with google already though. That’s why they bought Nokia, realizing the only way it would work was to build their own phones. I wish they had stuck it out longer or RIM hadn’t imploded, we really need a third player IMO.
> Google sabotaged that by refusing to support YouTube on windows mobile and actively blocking Microsoft’s native app.
Microsoft sabotaged it first by not letting Google (and others) leverage the native apps they built for WM 6.5 on WP7. Having a terrible browser and not letting established browsers into the store (Mozilla was interested in porting to WP, but Microsoft rebuffed them) was sabotage too.
But that's in the past anyway. Manufacturers could have licensed WP/WM, and several did, but it's not available anymore.
Windows Phone diehards liked to blame the YouTube thing for the downfall, and not Microsoft's incompetence in cobbling together something of a competent OS by the time the iPhone dropped. And even a decade later they had done 3 major reboots, never letting the platform mature. They didn't have a real potential competitor to the iPhone until the release of Windows Phone 7 in 2010, 3 years after the iPhone hit the market. Then they rebooted it again in 2014 with Windows Phone 8, and again in 2016 with Windows 10 Mobile.
They didn't even have a notification shade until Windows Phone 8.1 in 2014. And no, as cool as the live tiles were, they were not a replacement for a notifications shade which shows you only your notifications, rather than scrolling your entire list of apps and scanning your eyes around for relevant information as shit's appearing and disappearing cause all your apps are constantly animating. It was an absolutely bizarre UX.
And if we really want to talk about the YouTube thing, I have a hard time blaming Google for what they did. They didn't want to put the resources into making an app for a platform that nobody was using and likely wouldn't have broken even on resources/money spent, and they weren't going to let Microsoft handle creating and distributing a fake "official" app that represents their brand.
The iPhone has been such a good constant, high quality and reliable mobile phone throughout its years. I used to work in mobile sales during my graduate years and I attempted to jump from Apple to Microsoft (Lumia), Google Nexus 5X, Samsung S5 and the edge. I found more often than not customers who had problems with their devices were Android devices. Android problems were related to software errors and slowness, whereas Apple problems were related to more user error (backing up photos etc).
Appreciating these are older phones compared to those newer models of today but I quickly went straight back to the iPhone (3, 5, 6 plus, 7, X, 11). I now don't buy them every year, usually now only once the wheels have fallen off.
Looking back I don't even obsess over new mobile phones as they're hardly that much better year on year across any brand.
I think it's important to keep the subjectivity of your industry in mind. If you worked iPhone support at Apple wouldn't you say more often than not people had iPhone issues? You may have seen a lot of issues specific to Android because it commands more of the market globally. Or more of the market in your neighborhood. Etc.
Android being open source implies that issues are available to the public. Conversely Apple has an NDA protected internal kbase. Which operating procedure LOOKS like fewer problems? Clearly the latter. Which one actually has fewer problems is a more complex question.
He said he worked mobile sales, so I read that as he sold all models of phones to a wide variety of customers.
I think a lot of people would nod along with the idea that Android phones eventually have more issues. Certainly, between myself (iPhone user) and my wife (Android) it's her that has to change her phone every 2-3 years with escalating issues toward the end, and me that keeps using the same one for 5-6 with no issue.
Actually I'd say the same thing used to apply to Mac vs PC, especially laptops -- the Mac would be the one that keeps ticking basically forever while Windows laptops would encounter some kind of issue. But right now I'm on a 5 year old Windows laptop that works just fine (minus a few minor maintenance issues over the years), and I think that's not terribly uncommon. So it's not like Apple has some unattainable super-power, it's just the current situation in phone land.
Huh. Opposite story for my wife and I. I've been on Pixel/Nexus for many years, no issues. Her iPhones were always dying or restarting unexpectedly until she switched to Pixel.
Of course, neither of these stories mean anything in the way of what's better or more reliable.
And that was my point.
He sold a lot of phones. Did he eliminate bias through some kind of psychological training to ensure he sold a proportion of manufacturers phones in equitable rates and then did he compare those rates to returns? Probably not, right? Subjectivity is more difficult to eliminate than most people think.
Important to point out that my comment wasn't about which device was most popularly sold, but it was around those that needed support. Which wasn't just after sale service but any customer of the telco who needed help.
You make a valid point regarding the validity of both of our experiences, but it's just that, one person's experience and shouldn't be taken as gospel. I think most people understand that.
You've got part of my point. Over time, Apple is gaining market share. Meaning; previously Android had the greater share. That means that the number of old devices are disproportionately Android. Your experience is a product of the shear number of devices. So beyond the obvious point that one person's experience isn't gospel, the frame of reference isn't sound for forming any opinion on those grounds.
Whilst I largely agree, the fact that there might be more older Android devices in circulation, doesn't mean that proportionately Androids didn't have more problems either.
> If you worked iPhone support at Apple wouldn't you say more often than not people had iPhone issues? You may have seen a lot of issues specific to Android because it commands more of the market globally.
That's a fair question. In my experience, I choose to type on a mac because it sucks less than the alternative (used to be alternatives but really there's only two choices any more). On the server side linux for the same reason, but it's still, and presumably never, suitable for a lay audience without significant support.
But on the phone side I think apple has moved in recent years to "better" over "less bad". Not incredibly so, but to a significant degree. I tried using a bunch of android (Andy Rubin kept giving me phones to try) and the best of them were adequate -- I would have been satisfied using them had I not had an iphone to go back to.
Frankly though Apple has failed to meet the level of fit-for-function of the Palm Pilot. I don't at all mean it would be worth using these days! But at its time it really had a well honed and tuned experience, a testament to Jeff Hawkins' obsession with convenience and usability. Even before they had working hardware he would carry a piece of wood around and walk through the use cases, insisting that nothing should take more than three button presses to accomplish. The iphone is far from there, and getting farther away all the time.
I worked at a national telecommunications company in sales & service in a store.
It was a manufacturer agnostic telco where the overwhelming majority of phones in store weren't Apple, as naturally the store also had Sony, Samsung, LG, Nokia, Huawei etc. At the time Apple only really had two flagship phones.
Of course you can't take what I say as gospel for many of the reasons you mentioned, but it's my experience.
48 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 58.5 ms ] threadEdit: must’ve been my wifi. Switched to cellular and it’s all gravy.
Note: running pihole. Probably triggered some type of forward.
>the teenager told his father that he wanted an iPhone or no phone at all.
I knew the kids thought iPhones were more desirable, I didn't realise it was quite this bad.
> because their cameras are so freakishly large
But those freakishly large cameras are what makes the tradeoff of a larger device worthwhile for me personally.
This phone’s size is nothing compared to my photography gear. The quality of photo/video I can get means I spend less time lugging the heavy stuff. It’s not a small phone by any means. But then again, I very rarely use it as a phone.
I like to think of it more like a Tricorder/universal computing device than a phone. But that’s just me.
OK I don’t really take issue with it but still. I have a small child, I want photos of said child to be good. I care more about that than a little extra weight in my pocket.
They get whatever their parents had 1/2 years ago (and loads of people get the most expensive models)
It seems like Apple is sleeping on this and I genuinely think it might end up contributing heavily to their downfall. They've bet it all on hardware and services and if hardware sales decline, which is looking likely through China's recent moves, I don't think the current services offering is going to cover the shortfall.
Microsoft is looking very strong atm and has made some very savvy investments. They've already got the gaming market, which is now a bigger industry than music and film combined. Between VSCode and Github they're starting to corner the dev market. I've been exploring Azure the past week and I'm quite impressed with it, seems much easier to learn than AWS. They've had the business market cornered for years. And to top it all off they've got a huge stake in the biggest AI company. I really think we might see Microsoft becoming dominant again within the next ten years.
Wow. Thanks. I dont read Android news but if that is true I will definitely be getting one.
I also am not convinced Apple is sleeping on this - they have been investing more into removing seams in integration between devices (iPhone as MacBook camera, watch as phone, tablet as monitor, MacBook as compute/desktop for vision pro). I think their vision of the cloud is a tangible, product-driven one, and despite how effectively you could move compute to the cloud, people still love buying shiny devices, and Apple has that down to an art. I also would not doubt Apple has something interesting for cloud-like integration up their sleeve in the next few years. As with anything, they won’t be first to market, but they’ll probably be the instant premium default when they do enter.
For those watching closely, Apple has been pushing more focus on gaming in their devices (Apple Arcade, BG3 expos in WWDC/product launch keynotes, Hideo Kohima partnership for Silicon native ports, Unity partnership, etc). I think they are testing the waters here, but I would not be surprised if they open the floodgates some day soon. Historical gaming on Macs hasn’t been great, but Windows certainly is not entrenched here. The latest M processors are more than capable enough to run most modern games at fairly impressive settings, and this will only improve as more devs target builds for the platform.
If you want to make and sell phones and you're not Apple, Android is it, take it or leave it, for better or worse.
Google sabotaged that by refusing to support YouTube on windows mobile and actively blocking Microsoft’s native app. Honestly surprised they didn’t get destroyed by anti-trust laws.
As for licensing, they absolutely offered to license it to vendors, they were all in bed with google already though. That’s why they bought Nokia, realizing the only way it would work was to build their own phones. I wish they had stuck it out longer or RIM hadn’t imploded, we really need a third player IMO.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Windows_10_Mobile_de...
Microsoft sabotaged it first by not letting Google (and others) leverage the native apps they built for WM 6.5 on WP7. Having a terrible browser and not letting established browsers into the store (Mozilla was interested in porting to WP, but Microsoft rebuffed them) was sabotage too.
But that's in the past anyway. Manufacturers could have licensed WP/WM, and several did, but it's not available anymore.
They didn't even have a notification shade until Windows Phone 8.1 in 2014. And no, as cool as the live tiles were, they were not a replacement for a notifications shade which shows you only your notifications, rather than scrolling your entire list of apps and scanning your eyes around for relevant information as shit's appearing and disappearing cause all your apps are constantly animating. It was an absolutely bizarre UX.
And if we really want to talk about the YouTube thing, I have a hard time blaming Google for what they did. They didn't want to put the resources into making an app for a platform that nobody was using and likely wouldn't have broken even on resources/money spent, and they weren't going to let Microsoft handle creating and distributing a fake "official" app that represents their brand.
Google didn't kill Windows Phone, Microsoft did.
Appreciating these are older phones compared to those newer models of today but I quickly went straight back to the iPhone (3, 5, 6 plus, 7, X, 11). I now don't buy them every year, usually now only once the wheels have fallen off.
Looking back I don't even obsess over new mobile phones as they're hardly that much better year on year across any brand.
I think a lot of people would nod along with the idea that Android phones eventually have more issues. Certainly, between myself (iPhone user) and my wife (Android) it's her that has to change her phone every 2-3 years with escalating issues toward the end, and me that keeps using the same one for 5-6 with no issue.
Actually I'd say the same thing used to apply to Mac vs PC, especially laptops -- the Mac would be the one that keeps ticking basically forever while Windows laptops would encounter some kind of issue. But right now I'm on a 5 year old Windows laptop that works just fine (minus a few minor maintenance issues over the years), and I think that's not terribly uncommon. So it's not like Apple has some unattainable super-power, it's just the current situation in phone land.
You make a valid point regarding the validity of both of our experiences, but it's just that, one person's experience and shouldn't be taken as gospel. I think most people understand that.
It just makes it less likely.
That's a fair question. In my experience, I choose to type on a mac because it sucks less than the alternative (used to be alternatives but really there's only two choices any more). On the server side linux for the same reason, but it's still, and presumably never, suitable for a lay audience without significant support.
But on the phone side I think apple has moved in recent years to "better" over "less bad". Not incredibly so, but to a significant degree. I tried using a bunch of android (Andy Rubin kept giving me phones to try) and the best of them were adequate -- I would have been satisfied using them had I not had an iphone to go back to.
Frankly though Apple has failed to meet the level of fit-for-function of the Palm Pilot. I don't at all mean it would be worth using these days! But at its time it really had a well honed and tuned experience, a testament to Jeff Hawkins' obsession with convenience and usability. Even before they had working hardware he would carry a piece of wood around and walk through the use cases, insisting that nothing should take more than three button presses to accomplish. The iphone is far from there, and getting farther away all the time.
It was a manufacturer agnostic telco where the overwhelming majority of phones in store weren't Apple, as naturally the store also had Sony, Samsung, LG, Nokia, Huawei etc. At the time Apple only really had two flagship phones.
Of course you can't take what I say as gospel for many of the reasons you mentioned, but it's my experience.
So seemingly they can still use them as a personal device but they can't use it for work or bring it into the office.