Ask HN: Why don't more middle-class Americans emigrate to Europe?

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Why don't you move to Europe permanently - maybe that will help answer your question?

Europa is kinda big. It would help us to point out where you saw this average European citizen. (was it in the Swedish Capital or in the south of Italy in Sardinia?).

"Quality of life" is relative, some people feel being isolated from family/established friends by being several time zones away to be a negative. Especially if a family with school aged kids are involved.

I would guess the biggest factor is cultural: the US was always viewed as the place to immigrate to if you wanted a "good life", not emigrate from. That includes the language issue - other languages were rarely encouraged since there was enough geographic diversity and opportunity that it was't necessary, people came here and learned English, not the other way around. Those US citizens that emigrated were assumed to leave because they wanted to experience a foreign culture, not necessarily because of quality of life issues.

Most people just don't see it as an option because they don't know anyone who has emigrated.

I'm a middle-class person from the US. I've even had several short stints of living in Europe. I'd love to live in one of the countries there, but being a little bit older now I really don't want to start over again. Making new friends is hard, and it gets harder the older you get. Not to mention family here in the states. I've spent a few holiday seasons alone and it sucks.

To add to your QoL statement I feel as though European countries have a different kind of QoL. Here in the states the material quality of life is high. Things here are cheap compared to the rest of the world. Whereas in say, Germany, the social QoL is higher. People are more taken care of there and overall have less stress. Cities are walk-able, trains can actually take you where you want to go in a reasonable amount of time, a sense of community still exists. I think of lot of people from the US value the type of QoL we have here over what they have in various European countries.

Define "middle class Americans"? Hard to give a precise answer otherwise.

A few (other) explanations:

* QoL is hard to be rational about, and is something that (I think) has to be experienced first-hand. European salaries are most probably lower for comparable jobs (they certainly are for high-wage workers) but pack more punch because of better social benefits and, depending on where you live, lower CoL. However it can be hard to convince yourself that 40 k€ in Spain affords you a better QoL than 80k$ in California unless you've experienced both. I mean, 40 is much less than 80, right?

* the "American Dream" is still a big part of the American (and global, for that matter) psyche. I would wager most Americans think the US is a place to emigrate to, not from. I don't know if many middle-class Americans would spontaneously envision emigrating to Europe. This is probably even more true for descendants of recent immigrants: if your family struggled to get to the US, why would you consider leaving?

* Ability to live abroad, in particular mastering a foreign language well enough to live and work in the country

* I'm not sure how well employability travels. You can work as a developer in just about any country but I think this is an exception. A medical diploma does not transfer well between countries (e.g. you probably need to start again as an intern, re-take exams, etc.), neither does a law diploma. More "middle class" jobs will have similar barriers to entry. E.g. if you're a plumber in the US and move to Europe you have to deal with different construction codes, installed base, local habits... Same thing if you're an auto mechanic: different car manufacturers, different regulations, etc.

Most Americans wouldn't be eligible for a resident visa to move to most European countries (and vice-versa); and when they would the process is long and expensive.

I don't know why people from the US often, even knowing about their own country's strict immigration requirements, assume that they themselves can just pick up and move to any country they want (e.g. Europe, Canada, Australia, etc). 9/10s of the US population aren't in high demand jobs, most countries don't want you.

From anecdotal cases here in Sweden I can say that adjusting to a more "socialist" way of life is not always easy. Few American colleagues, all young healthy and unmarried, left after a few years because they couldn't handle the high taxes and more expensive prices.

But as other have mentioned this is a very theoretical question. A software engineer will do just fine, like I did, while a restaurant worker might find it harder.

As someone who immigrated to the US, the US has a standard of living that is "different" than it is in the EU. It's not better or worse than the EU, just different.

It's not big stuff but rather a combination of a bunch of small stuff.

- Houses are typically older, smaller and most scrunched together. This might be normal for someone in Europe but it's jarring for an American who expects a house with a lawn and white picket fence.

- The cars are typically smaller, again not something that's objectively better or worse but different. American's are used to big cars and the compact car culture in the EU is also jarring.

These are just two examples but it comes down to just about everything. I am not saying the standard of living in the US is better than it is in the EU, it's just different, and that difference is why most Americans will never move to the EU.

1. Family and support systems are here, not Europe.

2. Cost. I do not thing you understand how unfathomably expensive it would be to move from North America to Europe. Heck moving around the States can be extremely expensive already.

3. Unfamiliar culture. The average American is steeped in American Culture and is ignorant of anything elsewhere.

4. No ties to Europe.

5. Desire. Americans are blasted every day about opportunities here. We constantly hear about immigrants coming here but we never hear about opportunities over there. Our news plays into this, as they only cover bad things, so if we hear about Europe it's epically bad.

As an American that has lived in Europe for nearly a decade now, I think you vastly underestimate the cultural differences between the two continents. I think the average middle class American would feel boxed in here, annoyed by the constant bureaucratic action required to get things done, and somewhat confused by the general lack of "can do" attitude.

Moving here requires the ability to be a kind of permanent outsider who nonetheless is reminded by the dominance of his culture on every corner. It's a strange feeling and not one that I think most people are prepared to deal with.

Edit, in case I was unclear: by "dominant," I mean that American culture is everywhere. McDonalds, Starbucks, Hollywood celebrities, Netflix shows, hamburgers, popular music, on and on. European youth culture is probably more influenced by American culture (via the Internet) than any other single source.

Here is a complimentary question: why don't Americans living in state X move to state Y whereby state Y would be clearly better for them?

I think it answers most of the original question.

Immigration is pretty restricted in many European countries, with things like employment and language requirements. As they should be I suppose; I am not sure these countries want an influx of millions of Americans. Not to mention, there are tax implications for American citizens that make it economically unfeasible.

> ...I'm amazed by how healthy and prosperous the average European looks.

Are you sure you're seeing the "average European?" Europe is a pretty big, diverse place. If you're spending most of your time in the wealthier parts of town in a big city, you're going to see a very different Europe than the poor section of a rural village.

You make less money and pay more taxes. It’s a slightly better quality of life but not that much in my experience. Although public healthcare is pretty darn cool.

Anyways it’s not black and white even for me, and visas aren’t that easy to get.

I like how not one of your considerations is family and familial support. I can’t move because I can’t abandon my child, and if I could somehow take my kid with me (legally, but that’s not happening since other parent would never give up her rights), I would arrive with no community or family to support me, emotionally, as a parent.

I'd guess that most of the middle class have not been on a recent vacation to Europe, if they ever have.

Vacation is different than than permanently living there. In many ways there are more freedoms in the US, easier to own property, lower taxes, better economic outlook. Of course all of this depends on which county you're talking about since they are vastly different.

Immigration requirements are often strictest in the best areas, and often exclude those who would most benefit from stronger social support systems.

I'm an American and moved from the US to Portugal a year ago, though I still spend a lot of time in the US. Here's what my biggest challenges have been:

- Family and friends are now an 8 hour flight and 6 time zones away. Staying connected is difficult, particularly given American rat race schedules. I don't have children, so this is a challenge but manageable.

- The visa -- among the easiest to get for Americans with no family ties to Europe -- took 5 months and TONS of paperwork. I had to lease an apartment for an entire year in order to APPLY for the visa. In total, it cost about $40k to get set up there. Most middle-class Americans don't have that laying around.

- The language/culture barrier is real, even in a place with lots of English speakers. I'm diligent about attending lessons and studying, but it takes time. Learning the culture is even harder and I quite regularly make a fool of myself in public.

- Above all, I've gained an appreciation for how optimized for convenience life in the US is. I dry my clothes outdoors on a line just like everyone else. This alone is a nonstarter for most Americans I know.

In my experience, Americans are often conditioned to believe that they are living in the best country in the world, and that all other countries are inferior and not safe. They were also kept busy by their system and most don't even have their passports.

I'd say impulsivity and asymmetric extra opportunity.

A European can usefully learn English before knowing what they'll use it for, pounce on whatever opportunity arises in the more impulsive US economy, possibly multiple times in different places, make some extra money for some years, and then eventually return home to a lower cost of living. Going the other way requires more planning and more specific goals for no bigger a payoff than can be found domestically, which naturally filters out many people.

- Perceptions matter. A lot of Americans think it's best here. Those that say how bad it is here, tend to not be the types that would be qualified for EU visas (i.e, you're not going to move to EU on a skilled worker visa if you're an unskilled, unhappy worker in the US) - Family matters. People leaving family usually emigrate for more money, and US -> EU isn't a more money situation most of the time. - It's not so easy to just emigrate. You need to be highly qualified or have ancestral ties. If you're highly qualified though, you can probably earn better money in the US. For the wealthy, US is subjectively "better".

I think ultimately it's just a matter of opportunity. If people are generally comfortable with their life, why would they move? They will only do it if a fantastic 10/10 opportunity presents itself; there aren't many 10/10 obvious opportunities to emigrate to Europe for.

Europe is huge and diverse - where are you visiting? I suspect East/Central Europe and the Balkans could make for decent QoL for Americans, especially in regard to property prices (West Europe is getting priced out), but I'd like to know more.

> Ask HN: Why don't more middle-class Americans emigrate to Europe?

Because:

-the capital city is in Washington D.C.

- in a case of a war, Europe will be sacrificed

In my family it's already happening. I am one of three siblings all of us late 20s early 30s, grew up middle class in SoCal. My brother went to college in Germany because it was more affordable than attending a 4 year university in our home state. He's been in Germany now for eight years. He graduated, got a job, got married. He and his wife are never coming back. His POV is that the things he needs to live (healthcare, shelter) and the things he needs to work and have a family life (childcare, mat/pat leave, safe and timely transit to jobs, more job security) are affordable/attainable whereas those things are expensive and increasingly out of reach in the USA. He jokes that our TVs and material goods are cheaper, but you can't live in a TV.

My sister and I have both weighed moving to Europe. The cut in paper salary vs. cost of living seems to be heavily in Europe's favor once you have 2-3 kids. When we get to that point, we may make the move too.

We have an advantage that my sister and I received Italian citizenship through a great grandmother in 2020, and my brother received his Italian citizenship this year so moving and staying in Europe long-term will be simpler in that respect for us.