I got to start with Victor keyboards, which was a little bit of a "silver spoon". The only thing that was ever better than a model M.
Sometime around '97 I got a bunch of real Model M's from a school; spent a while refurbishing up a bunch of them, and then used that stack for like 20 years. They lived an average of 3yr under my hands.
Since then i use unicomp "new model M". This one has been going stong for 2+yr now, expect it to start losing function soon. Tried a couple different logitech "mechanical" and beat them to death in under a year.
My stuff would last longer if i used one of those "keyboard condom" things but those are worse than using a $10 disposable "flexible" bodyless thing, anyway. the cure is worse than the disease.
I used a K552 for a while. Definitely a decent keyboard for the price. Just be warned that, like going from membrane to mechanical, once you upgrade there's no going back. I upgraded to a TKL GMMK with Kailh BOX White switches, and now the K552 feels terrible because my standards have been raised so much higher.
>Since then i use unicomp "new model M". This one has been going stong for 2+yr now, expect it to start losing function soon. Tried a couple different logitech "mechanical" and beat them to death in under a year.
I had one of those for a bit but it had constant firmware issues. usb dropouts and resets that required a full power-off. had to return it.
was an OK repro as far as the typing feel goes, though.
This person might enjoy the Keychron K1. I have used mine for many years. It's a bit less "low profile" than a mac keyboard, but the difference is not enough to require different finger movement - I get used to the different height in minutes.
Thanks for the recommendation, the keychron K1 is definitely something I've been looking at closely. I've heard some complaints about the bluetooth connectivity not being great.
They recently announced a budget friendly version the C3 Pro that's wired (USB-C) only that looks like it might actually satisfy my requirements.
I went from a low profile scissor switch keyboard to a K5 Pro and, while it's not the same, I'm also happy with the outcome.
There's still some relearning because key placement is slightly different (sometimes I hit spacebar instead of left alt/command).
Also, I think the MX Keys that he likes is flat (ortholinear?) and the K-series has a slight stagger to the keys (but I also didn't find it to be an issue).
Even after all these years it's hard to beat the Microsoft Natural Keyboard Elite. I wish someone made a mechanical version.
I'm typing this on a Keychron Q11 so maybe I'm in a similar boat as the author.
I might be biased by spending too much time watching people dive into the hobby of mechanical keyboards, but I'm impressed he found the strenght to not go too far into it.
I'm just surprised that this low level of engagement with keyboards is considered on the "unhealthy" side of the fence. I mean, this is only about 5 keyboards and not even owned at the same time.
Right. My unhealthy relationship with keyboards is that I have 5 of them which I use on a regular basis, but I haven't bothered update to the same version of my custom firmware, so they differ in subtle and maddening ways--but none more maddening than going back to a standard layout.
I'm happy for this person that they so utterly lack an awareness of what an unhealthy relationship actually looks like. Although a small evil part of me wants to send then a mountain of cocaine so they can find out.
I own seven, at the moment. One is an IBM Model M buckling spring keyboard (1983, needs a PS2-to-USB adaptor). Two others I use daily, including the Das Keyboard (Cherry MX Blues) I'm typing this on.
My latest is the Launch Heavy with Kaith Brown keys that arrived yesterday (with a new system). It's replacing a gaming keyboard I've had for more than a decade.
I'm not even "in to keyboards," I've simply been using computer equipment at home for so long that I have them around.
My dad worked in IT and used the same keyboard for like 20+ years. Part of me hopes that one day I can find a board that survives for an extended period of time, but I guess modern spending habits and build quality has changed. I have to buy a new phone every 2/3 years for the same reasons.
My current favorite keyboard is a Unicomp Mini M, and my collection includes a couple of IBM Model Ms, which I grew up typing on.
It's basically a slightly nicer mechanical tenkeyless than the original IBM SSK: lighter, slimmer, native USB, and more simultaneous keypresses, but still hefty and solid, with the same buckling spring action and wonderful curved backplate.
Unicomp's brand new Model M keyboards are also quite affordable by custom keyboard standards: $125 for a New Model M, $150 for a buckling spring Mac keyboard, and $150 for the excellent Mini M.
I have some of the more common, modular custom keyboards with the Cherry-compatible switches and all that. By and large, they're more expensive and more work to get into an agreeable actuation force range if you're used to dealing with real buckling spring switches. At the same time, the actuation force curve is never quite right because the 'tactile bump' of such a switch always involves a brief spike in actuation force instead of the regular increase and then collapsing action you get with a buckling spring.
If you've never used a buckling spring keyboard, you may find that you prefer some of the newer switches, especially the ones that don't imitate the 'clickiness' or heaviness of IBM/Unicomp buckling spring switches. But IMHO a brand new buckling spring keyboard is not just cheaper but plain better to type on them any of the more expensive, more 'modern' options.
I happily used my Unicomps for more than 15 years. They're still fine but I got a Model F reproduction a couple of years ago. It's much more expensive but the feel is even better!
It is not too hard these days to buy a complete and immediately usable keyboard on line. But it does help to know what you are looking for because there are choices to be made around format, switches, keycaps, etc.
Get an off-the-shelf Arisu layout keyboard from a reputable manufacturer. You don't have to worry about the billion options. The Arisu layout keyboards are the closest mechanical keyboards you can get to a MS Natural keyboard layout, IMHO.
Keychron has several models of different sizes that give you good options on size vs. function vs. price: V8/V10, Q8/Q10, K15 Pro, etc. They sell on Amazon, their own site and some mech kbd vendors as well. Their own site is the only one that carries the entire product line, however.
Akkogear has a model (ACR Pro Alice Plus) that's quite affordable and good build quality.
Feker Alice boards from Epomaker are another good choice.
I find it bizarre to say "Arisu layout" and "ergonomic" in the same sentence.
The layout looks cool.
The only two ergonomic things about it are that the letters are slightly split apart, and slightly at an angle. (The thumb gets to press more keys than on a standard keyboard, but not as many as on better keyboards).
The layouts tend to have weird features, stuff like: the digit for 6 is placed on the left-hand side; or that it's got pinky-finger modifiers, but not 3 on each side. Many layouts also drop the function row (indicating users are expected to use layers), but retain a nav cluster. - The layout of the alphabetical keys is also weirdly asymmetric.
Unlike the MS Natural 4000, all of these seem to lack one or more of: symmetrical meta keys, F keys, standard navigation cluster, right hand Ctrl and/or Alt, cursor keys away from the main typing area (probably necessary for symmetrical meta keys anyway), PrtSc key.
(A pause key would be nice too. I think I can survive without ScrLk.)
I like having a numeric keypad, but that can always be bought separately.
Volume controls and mute would be a nice. I like them separate, but Fn+something is acceptable.
Even if I'd never buy any of them, I do like the fact that there are all these different layouts. But it's a constant mystery to me why none of them are remotely like the very standard MS split layout that's been around for over 25 years.
MS Natural Keyboards have the opposite shape of natural in the Z-axis. Your pinky and index fingers have to travel _more_ because the curve is a mirror of the curve of your hands.
Kinesis Advantage2 are the negative shape of your hands and the split lines up with your shoulder width. Love my Kinesis Advantage2.
My all time favorite was a Northgate Omnikey. It had incredible switches and function keys on the side and across the top. It lasted about 20 years and was killed by Mt. Dew.
Second favorite is the Logitech K780. It feels a lot like the MX Keys but with round key caps.
I have a Logitech MX Keys too. Though when I got it I also had some concerns about how charging it would be a odd experience, after 1.5 years or so of usage I just have to charge it in like each 3 months - and still you get to use it while it's charging. I don't use the backlight feature so I guess for other people that time between charging can be shorter.
I haven't had the need to disassemble it for cleaning so I use a small brush to remove crumbs and stuff. Sometimes I too feel that it is large, but still the numpad is convenient. The alternative would be a 'compact' design but I don't like how they cram the Enter key in a single row and make the up and down keys half of the height of a normal key.
My complain against it is its privative nature - with Linux, you can't use the
screen brightness keys unless you install something like Logiops or Solaar. Alas I've found Logips a bit buggy so when you're running it the mouse wheel becomes really glitchy so you have to restart it.
I'd like it to have one of these wheels some keyboards have to control volume or something else, a second Meta key and that one could make it so when powering it up it started with no backlight.
A long time ago at work, I was given a Logitech K750. It is powered by solar cells which charge an internal battery. It works so well, I don't understand why there aren't more solar powered keyboards.
I ended up buying the same keyboard for home and I really enjoy typing on it. My only complaint is that it's difficult to remove the keycaps for cleaning and some dust somehow got inside and I can see it on the little solar panels.
Typing preferences are very subjective, but I've grown to really enjoy working on this keyboard. I've used it so much that the texture has pretty much worn off of most of the keys and I'm starting to lose the printed letters on the key caps. I've thought about buying a few replacements and storing them because no product is sold forever...
I owned one of these, and decided to omit it from the list (it came before my first Cherry board).
It was a really good board. But I remember it having quite a lot of flex in the plastic. My letters wore off pretty quickly and frustratingly the solar cells eventually died and the thing stopped charging all together.
At some point, I think they changed the number of rubber feet from 4 to 6 to help with the flexing. It's still too flexy though.
> the solar cells eventually died
Mine stopped charging too but in my case it was because the little rechargeable battery had wore out. There's a battery tray on the back that you slide out and replace it and it's been working ever since for me. If the solar panels themselves eventually die, then maybe that's why there aren't more of these on the market.
I really liked my K750 too, but when I switched to LED lights it stopped charging. I got by for awhile setting it in front of a window a few times a week. Once at night, without a charge and in desperation, I stupidly I set it on top of a lamp with an incandescent bulb, promptly forgot about it, and melted one of the keys.
I think I've had it for a similar amount of time and I've definitely had to start charging it up a lot more frequently recently (compared to when I first started using it).
I really don't understand the numpad-less trend of fashionable keyboards. Doing any kind of number entry beyond one or two digits is very annoying without one.
They also don't take up that much space really.
If your keyboard is a portable one you pack with you on trips, I get it. If it lives on a desk, why not splash out the small amount extra to make number entry much easier.
If the IP addresses usually have the same prefix (or two-three prefixes) you could program that prefix to a simple key combination on many mechanical keyboards.
Even with weird combinations, like holding '1' and pressing '9' to autotype '192.168.0.'.
... or you're working in an environment where it's industry norm that production-crucial devices (embedded devices, PLCs etc) have fixed IPs. In steel plant automation for example. What is "normal" may vary dramatically across industries.
Thanks very little for the unwarranted negativity. I'm not sure how you got to the conclusion that "my process" is somehow ignorant of the existence of DHCP and DNS. It most certainly is not.
I just bought a little mechanical keypad kit off alliexpress, nice alu case, bluetooth... I drag it down when I need it, which is mostly for when I'm doing CAD.
Cannot speak to the fashion side of it but my original motivator to move to a keypad less was to reduce the distance of the mouse to my typing space. I do not do any type of data entry and rarely type numbers with enough frequency to require it.
Same for me. The shorter distance seems to put substantially less strain on my wrists and shoulder. Can’t imagine sitting in front of a tenkey for hours at a time now.
While I do miss the number pads it was leading me to bad posture and messing up my back. I like how some keyboards have detached numberpad but they are rare.
Some of the fancier ones will have layers where you can turn part of they keyboard directly into a number pad if you're mostly typing just numbers. Best of both worlds.
I've used a couple different "1800 compact"-ish keyboards for more than a decade now, where you use NumLock to toggle the right-hand side keys between a numpad and arrow keys + Del/Ins/Home/etc. It gives you most of the keypadless benefit.
First one I had was a CoolerMaster Storm Quickfire TK, now I'm on a Keychron K4V2. I actually liked the TK better, but it's completely worn out and I couldn't seem to find a similar layout on a new keyboard.
Went through a lot, trackballs, 2 mice, narrow keyboards, but the left hand mouse was the one that fixed the biomechanical issues, and they haven't returned in 20+ years.
I found a Microsoft Sidewinder keyboard that let you modularly unhook the Num Pad and move it to the left as an option, and having a left side Num Pad has been a wonder for gaming, not just the closer distance between the home row and the mouse, but also a few games I have taken some small advantage from the closer distance for the left hand from "WASD position" to the Num Pad for commands/macros or even the naturalness in games that support it of using the "WASD hand" for Num Pad arrows. I'm now surprised left hand Num Pad isn't more common in keyboard form factors. Modular is particularly handy because there are still mouse-less data entry scenarios where it is nice to have it on right hand because left is busy with Tab and other accelerator keys.
I do this on my Planck, and have aligned the numbers to have both a row of digits, and intersecting 789, have the layout of a conventional number pad on the rows below. I feel like I have more flexibility and control on a keyboard with fewer keys than I have ever used before this!
Good thing I rarely enter more than a few digits :)
Having a "tenkeyless" means my mouse position is aligned with my shoulder, with a full width keyboard my arm would be rotated constantly, leading to pain.
Distance to mouse means I either have to stretch my arm in long-term unhealthy positions leading to shoulder, neck, and upper back pain, or offset the keyboard and have the non-keypad not front and center.
Typing numbers on a single row is not an issue for me, so numpad brings me little benefits and significant drawbacks.
The last time I used a numberpad was to play Civilisation in the 90s, so I don't really miss it. I hate moving my hands too far from the home row, and it's now a few inches less travel to my mouse when I need it so that's a positive. If I ever had to manually enter a bunch of numbers in a spreadsheet or something I'd either automate it or re-evaluate my life choices.
>The last time I used a numberpad was to play Civilisation in the 90s
Ay! another civ 2 fan! I agree it's painful to play that game without a numpad. I also used it with some tactical shooters to radio compass directions to my team. 'Enemy spotted south south east!' It came in handy.
It's an easy one for me; I'm a lefty, the majority of numpads are utterly useless to me because I am so much slower entering numbers on it with my right hand, than just using the number row, or a separate numpad, or a board with a left-numpad.
I'm a designer and primarily use my mouse + keyboard shortcuts. Keyboards with numpads push my mouse position further out right, which is actually quite awkward on the shoulder (it has to be twisted outwards). With a tenkeyless board, my shoulders and forearms are straight.
I would consider a separate numpad so it can be moved around if needed, but that need never really comes up for me.
It sounds bad but if you're using the mouse a lot you should try splitting the board and placing the mouse between the halves. For shoulders it's the best typing and mousing position I can imagine. Although to be honest /didn't/ imagine it, someone whom I admire recommended it and even so it only took on the second attempt. And... it hasn't made me need a numpty yet.
I have a TKL for work and and also use it to game. Having more space for mouse movement is great when playing games. I never used a numpad anyway, so I don't miss it at all.
I particularly hate number pads on laptop keyboards because they put the touch pad right where my wrist occasionally touches as I type.
I've used the old Mac 104 key aluminium wired keyboard for about 10 years now. I originally used it with Linux and now with MacOS at work and my home Windows PC. I've occasionally had minor difficulties with mapping but nothing insurmountable.
The real pro move is using a keyboard with the numpad on the left side (southpaw). This decreases distance from normal typing hand position to the mouse while also keeping a numpad and giving you the ability to control the numpad w/ the left hand while mousing around w/ the righthand for data entry in apps like excel.
As a southpaw who uses the mouse on the left side I've never realized the advantage I've had all these years with this setup. I use numpad + mouse all the time and it does save a lot of time. Almost makes up for having to change the default WASD key bindings in every game I've played.
Early in my career, I just moved the mouse to my left hand and kept everything else the same. It was super easy to get used to and easy to replicate whenever I have to use some shared workstation.
For the real luxury stuff, there aren't great options for a 95%+ layout. And they're typically more expensive without being as "high quality". The luxury keyboard world is very focused on small form factor.
The only time I miss it is gaming. Flight/Space sims, Factorio, things like that really benefit from a numpad. Otherwise, I'm not typing numbers enough to care.
I have a full size Code keyboard at home and a tenkeyless one for work. I went with the TKL because it has a much smaller desk footprint and I end up with a bunch of other stuff taking up space on my desk at work. I can also fit the keyboard in my laptop bag if I need to (admittedly, this has mattered almost never). At home I end up doing enough number entry in personal finance spreadsheets and the like that I feel like I’d miss the numpad, but it’s rarely been an issue for me at work.
Many keyboards allow you to map additional layers, so if you want a numpad, it's pretty trivial to put one in the place your hand already is, instead of moving your hand over.
Do you not know how to touch type without looking at the keyboard at all or have you just not learned where the numbers are? Shouldn't you take the time to learn to type correctly instead of relying on moving your entire hand just to type a number?
I truly do not mean to be insulting or anything, but I read comments like this a lot and they really confuse me. I don't need a numpad because I know how to touch type and don't have trouble putting in numbers with the number row without looking, I never used the numpad even when I had a keyboard that had one.
For why I got a board without it, ergonomics. My mouse is where the numpad would've been. Having a shorter keyboard reduces the distance between my hands at the points where I need to use a mouse to about shoulder width, keeping my arms aligned with my shoulders and greatly reduces shoulder impinging issues I was having.
Maybe it's because I learned to type in chat rooms and never bothered with the home row thing, but I guess I just don't type enough numbers to have muscle memory for the number row. But the numpad is stupid easy to develop muscle memory for.
For me personally, the number row is far enough away from the home row that my fingers become inaccurate. It's not unlikely that when I reach for 7 I'll hit 6 instead. That's easy enough to correct in normal operation, less so for entering lots of numbers.
Another issue is when doing data entry or 2fa codes, one hand tends to be busy holding something. The number row is basically unusable one-handed as far as I'm concerned.
And for me, mouse distance from the keyboard has never been an issue, because I use them in different scenarios. It's not often that I'm dual wielding them to the point shoulder angles are a concern. If I'm spending hours coding, the amount of mouse usage is going to be minimal.
Thinking about it after reading the responses, it makes sense a keypad is faster simply from reduced finger travel. Just for me personally, never so much faster having one would outweigh what I gain removing it.
Also possible I never needed to enter numbers often enough prior to learning to touch type with the num row to incentivize finding a more efficient method and once I was regularly typing a lot of numbers my num row method was sufficient.
Also while I don’t remember the exact timeline, because of my dad’s employer, Thinkpads were one of the main types of computers I used as a kid meaning I spent a lot of time growing up using built in laptop keyboards without numpads.
It’s interesting how random quirks during childhood can result in very different ways of looking at a certain topic later in life.
I definitely did a bad job explaining the kb + mouse thing. Writing code I rarely touch the mouse and if I do its for UI navigation that doesn’t support key strokes or is faster by mouse (usually stuff in a browser) so I’m mostly not using the keyboard at the same time (one exception being ctrl/cmd clicking links). I actually keep a trackpad to the left of my keyboard (I’m left handed) which I generally use to mouse during work with minimal arm movement.
The situation where I was getting shoulder issues was playing video games. Getting a compact keyboard let me move my normal hand position inward to be better aligned while playing without the risk my mouse hits the side of the keyboard. I’ve worked from home for almost a decade using the same desk/monitor/keyboard/mouse setup for work and play and since I never used the keypad anyway it was no big deal to just switch both contexts even if doing so was initially only related to gaming.
I'm with you on this, but wasn't until a few years ago. I used to prefer number pad and, though I'm pretty good a typing, didn't really learn to use the number row effectively. Now I see no reason to use a number pad unless I'm just doing a ton of numerical entry because I prefer leaving my hands in one place. It's actually annoying me right now that I have to use my mouse to submit this comment :)
This one of the main reasons I switched to an "ortho" keyboard. I use a left-hand modifier key to change uio jkl m,. into a number pad, meaning I can keep my hands near the home position and still crank out numbers just like I do with the number pad. I also kept the actual number pad around too, so I don't have to hit any modifier if I need one-handed number entry.
Situations where I have to type in numbers are usually those where I need one hand to touch paper or a device, so that’s why typing them on a regular keyboard is hard.
Also those keyboards without a number block seem to have bad positions for cursor and other special keys.
This seems like some weird flex about being able to type numbers as effectively on the number row as on a number pad (not sure I believe that). I would rather flex that I never have to move my hand to the mouse...
I get why my comment could come off that way but I truly was not trying to show off or talk down. I theoretically know each person and what works for them differs but it can be hard to comprehend someone else’s preferences when they are opposite of your own (which usually feel perfect).
I was being a bit ignorant but was ok looking dumb in hopes of getting a better understanding of that other perspective. Mainly expressed my own as context for where I was coming from. Like yes, I think my opinion is objectively correct (which leaked in some), but I apologized in advance cause I recognize my doing so is irrational.
To maybe balance out my coming off as superior, until moving to a country with chip and pin where it was regularly necessary, I could not touch type on a keypad. I would screw up embarrassingly often when forced to use one. Even once lost a card to an ATM after typing my pin wrong too many times. I rarely used one and thus lacked the muscle memory while typing numbers with the row is engrained from doing it so often for so long.
I will not however have my good name besmirched by the implication I use a mouse while writing code! I’m an old curmudgeon who’s completely incapable of moving off of vim, I would never soil myself in such a manner. The mouse is used if I’m on MacOS where the UI lacks good keyboard navigation as well as the main situation I was having ergonomic issues during, playing video games.
You have my empathy. Observing myself today I'm using the number row mainly, but switch to the pad for longer strings of digits. You're right, we each do what works for us.
I don't know about his keyboards, but many now have meta switches to turn the ~jkl; block area into a num pad. Then you don't have to move your right hand to input numbers. Left hand holds the meta key; right hand inputs numbers. On my Kinesis Advantage 3, I think the number 1 or 2 meta key on the left side of the board is set up this way.
Ortholinear or orthocolumnar layouts are much easier to touchtype with IME, this is also the layout of a numpad (straight rows, not a "typewriter" layout with staggered rows). I'm not sure why those are not popular, even among "keyboard enthusiasts". Heck, even among gamers: I can play from my home row comfortably, and have plenty of keys on both sides of my hand.
Anyway, I'm currently using an Ergodox EZ and it's very simple: I have a numpad "layer" activated with a key. The keyboard already has the right layout, so activating this layer with the left hand lets me quickly enter a number with my right hand (from the home row).
As a committed number pad user for years, the solution you've used (and that I have used) has done away with my need for a discreet number pad altogether. I have one layer that turns the right side into a number pad, and another layer that turns it into a VIM cursor control pad. After all these years of typing on an Ergodox in this way and dreaming of a separate number pad, it turns out I had what I wanted all along and can't leave it now.
They do take up a lot of space between the right hand and the mouse.
I sometimes try to go back to full size keyboard but I just can't take it for more than a few hours. It's just too uncomfortable. I'd love to have a keyboard with the numpad on the left side.
If I were a lefty with regards to mousing I'd use a full size keyboard and be happy.
The reason people ditch number pads is so that their mouse can be closer to them. Feel what your upper arm is doing as you rotate to get to a mouse that's next to a number pad, that is painful for a lot of people. (If you use your mouse with your left hand, then this doesn't matter.)
Personally, I just have a layer that I activate with my right thumb to turn the m,.jkluio keys into 123456789, so it's like having a number pad, but one that doesn't take up any space.
I cannot stand any keyboard less than a 100% layout. I have 30 years of muscle memory built up, and I'm not about to relearn it.
I don't really have any beef with those who want a smaller keyboard (though I don't really understand it - no way is your desk so small that saving a few inches actually makes a difference). But it is a real bummer that makers of high-end keyboards only cater to that crowd, and don't make nice keyboards that are full size. I would love to get a GMMK Pro, for example - if only it was in the form factor I want.
Incorrect! I have worked on a high quality, wooden card table for fifteen years as a professional programmer. I am right-handed and there is no way there is room for a mouse or (as I actually use) a trackpad with a number pad on the keyboard.
I've tried a couple of numberless keyboards and those crowd my mouse area. I am firmly and permanently settled on the Apple keyboard. It is tiny, silent and perfectly reliable.
(In a bizarre side note, I left one out in the rain the other day, a downpour. It still worked.)
Fair enough, I phrased my statement too strongly. Let me restate: I have never ever in my entire life seen a desk which was so small that shaving a few inches off a keyboard would actually be significant. And mind you, that includes shitty call center desks which are built to be just wide enough to cram a computer station in. While it is possible they exist, the fact that I've never encountered even one causes me to doubt that most people who say "my desk is too small" actually have a desk which is too small for a 100% keyboard.
I switched from a 100% layout to a 34-key keyboard last year. It's not about the desk space at all, it's about never having to move my hands while typing. E.g. instead of reaching for the arrow keys I use a vim navigation layer. Instead of reaching for the number keys -- or, even worse, a numpad way off to the side -- I use a numpad layer. And mod-taps are amazing.
The small size is nice for portability -- my keyboard is split and wireless, so I can easily stick it in my backpack and set it in front of my laptop on a table anywhere. But again, the main benefit of a compact layout for me is ergonomics rather than size.
It's often said that but I don't agree that removing keys (especially for F1-12 row) is for ergonomics. You can remap F keys to combination even if the keyboard has dedicated F keys. I do that because dedicated keys are sometimes useful for me and I don't care additional spaces by adding a top row. Removing it is for cost saving and portability.
As someone that prefers the number pad, I've never seen this mentioned: the enter key is extremely accessible from my (right) mouse hand, it's on the bottom right of the keyboard -- I can't miss it. In a TKL, I would have to pass over the arrow keys on my way to the return carriage key.
I really don't understand the numpad-less trend of fashionable keyboards.
OK, I've read all the answers so far, in the hope that somebody had told you before, but no!
I don't use the numpad, so it's useless to me. But does it harm? In the case of these keyboards, not so much, except for the reason others have already explained of more distance for the mouse. I can live with it, but my next keyboard will be numpad-less for sure.
If we talk about laptops, that's a different story. Numpads for those are terrible, for me anyway.
They shift the center of the hands, that is between G and H, from the center of the laptop and thus the center of the screen, so your hands are in an unnatural position.
If you center an external wide keyboard, you get the same effect. I don't, but I try to use the GH line... "try" because the push from the mouse always tend to move it to the left.
So now you know, for some of us it's not a question of fashion, but usability :)
I don't need a redundant set of numeric keys on the right side of the keyboard for the same reason I don't need a redundant set of vowels on the left side of the board.
For an accountant or someone whose keyboard usage is exceedingly numbers-centric, then sure. But as a default option, it's a space eating waste.
My solution: on all of the keyboards I've programmed (which are all ortholinear or vertical staggered ortholinear), I have a numpad layer. When I hold down F my right hand home row is vim style arrows. D and it's a number pad. S and it's a symbol pad. Common programming delimiters like <>{}() are not on a layer, instead they're hold/tap with my modifier keys on my base layer (Inspired by the space cadet keyboard).
I prefer a separate numpad. Always have. I like it with the loud clicky switches because I can hear a double tap mistake. You can also then move the main keyboard over and use one hand on the arrows and really blaze through a spreadsheet.
10/10 would recommend a separate numpad. Also good for macros in games or Photoshop or whatever.
Some people don't do number entry of any scale that would make them want to take their hands off the home row. I'm one, I have small keyboards everywhere.
My wife on the other hand has a custom keyboard with a num pad on each side so she can num pad with a mouse in her hand.
People have different needs. And different workflows. Not sure why that's news to you.
I have wide shoulders and like to spread my arms out, so I personally prefer the number pad build into the keyboard. I even like reaching far out for my mouse.
I can assume that people with narrow shoulders would prefer a narrow layout on their desk.
Quite the ratio here. Definitely agree with the masses that 1) almost no one does number entry 2) many touch typers are plenty fast enough on the number row 3) it does take up space really, especially in laptop or directly next to a mouse. I touch type 24 digit numbers at work from the num row, it's fine really.
I try to use my keyboard whenever possible, but sometimes reaching to my mouse is just easier. Moving my hand 5 inches is already bad, but having to move it 10-15 inches every time I want to use the mouse is terrible.
And all for what? For having to enter a phone number or credit card number once a month into some form? The tradeoff is not worth it for most people.
As a programmer, I don't need a numpad very often, having long strings of numbers are not very common in my field. Sure, sometimes I need to write numbers, but they are one or two character long, and having them above the keys is better experience as I don't need to move my hand so far.
There are compact designs that I find reasonable, though I'm sure not everyone will agree, which is fine! I'm using a Leopold fc-980m right now. It and it's variants are my favorite layout that I've used so far.
But I do use my tenkey pretty often and want it around.
I only use a numpad while doing CAD work. I just bought a separate keypad. Otherwise it's just making the distance from 'home' to your mouse further than it needs to be.
I don't enter that much numbers tbh, so I don't need a num pad per se. The reason I got rid of it is because I switch between keyboard and mouse a lot, or use them at the same time; the extra distance was just uncomfortable for me.
I would go for the apple magic keyboard, except for that arrow key cluster. Had a macbook with those once and hated it.
Good that the author pointed out the inability of removing keys to clean with the Logi MX. I'd have sprung for that but dislike anything that is potentially going to become garbage.
I used UV cure glue to put small dots on the little arrow keys. It totally solved the problem for me. Turns out my issue was that I couldn't be sure my fingers were on them and which one. The raised dots worked.
I recently got a Keychron Q11 split keyboard. The quality of the keyboard is so good that I think the people involved in making these keyboards must be truly keyboard lovers.
I have a Keychron Q11 as well. I don't notice any key squeaking. It's a great keyboard, no serious flaws from what I can tell so far. My biggest issue with this keyboard is it doesn't have a tenting kit from the manufacturer.
Your enthusiasm for collecting and buying keyboards isn't considered unhealthy; it's akin to periodically upgrading a car. At best, it's comparable to exclusively sticking with sedans or small compact cars.
Mechanical keyboards or building custom ones, especially those with Cherry MX keys, are where the excitement lies.
You might not have had the chance to explore them all yet; there's an abundance of various types available.
One of the 5 keyboards on your list you used all the way through university, and there's only 2 keyboards after. This feels far from an unhealthy obsession to me.
I have to admit, I was expecting something different when I saw the title.
Just one of my hand-build, custom switch, aluminium-case, custom-firmware,"artisan" keycap, mechanical keyboards would buy all of those on OPs list, probably twice over.
It's good that OP is keeping a lid on their keyboard buying habits (as with anything), but realistically, OP isn't even in the same _universe_ as the people with the _real_ unhealthy keyboard habits.
There are/were people on the mechanical keyboard sub-reddit whose keyboard collections reach into the tens of thousands of dollars.
And those look like default keycaps. If someone hasn't developed strong opinions on materials and double-shot markings, they're still at the "only on weekends when I've been drinking" stage.
I've been using a Das Keyboard 4 Ultimate (the blank one) for almost 10 years. I liked it so much that I soon got another for work. While I have looked at other keyboards, I've never wanted to replace either one.
All my best keyboards have been given to me. All my worst keyboards have been purchased by me.
My first job was very much a garage shop web hosting business so I just rummaged through the boxes and found an old IBM model M (not realizing its later cult status).
At another later job I just grabbed a full length apple keyboard with numpad that was laying around. During boring times at that job I placed in top 20 at typeracer with that keyboard.
Whenever I tried to be like other nerd friends and buy a cool nerdy clicketyclack keyboard I always ended up disappointed.
Now the last 15 years or so I mostly used Thinkpad keyboards and they're just fine.
Best keyboard I ever had was the Logitech Ultra-X. There's nothing "cool" about it, it used scissor switches was full size, but holy crap was it ever a delight to type on.
Felt a lot like you know, a ~2000s thinkpad keyboard, low profile concave caps, like how laptops felt before every laptop became a crappy macbook clone with flat keycaps. It went out of production like a decade or more ago and nothing has been close to the same ever since.
I never understood the Mac keyboards. For me a are a sensory deprivation chamber.
I am wielding a ROG Falchion Green Cherry MX Gaming Keyboard. Is a backlit keyboard with good feedback and sound. But there is a hollow sound to the keys that is not ideal.
My favorite keyboard I cannot use because is not backlit.
The CoolerMaster Storm QuickFire Rapid - Tenkeyless.
The keys are so smooth to the touch and there is a slight high pitch to the keys action sound. Very solid action. My precious.
I love it. I cannot use it in the dark. It is a discontinued model. :(
Because they are all compact keyboards so some of keys have multiple functions and not in the usual places so at night I don't want to turn of the lights.
My favorite keyboards are not backlit, and I was frustrated to have to put them aside after sunset. I ended up getting a small battery powered light and attaching it to the bottom of my desk. It shines on my lap, and lets me use non-backlit keyboards without any other lights on.
I was considering putting a light but my desk right now resembles a wall panel from the movie Brazil. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dht_3NziwSw Is hard to find the middle ground between clutter and chaos.
Found a Logitech keyboard with no missing keys next to a dumpster back in 2007. I took it home, cleaned it up, replaced the torn and tattered USB cable, been using it since then.
Whenever someone complains about their keyboard Bluetooth not connecting, or their batteries dying, I gently raise it in the air and point at it.
I was going to do the Crocodile Dundee "That's not a knife, this is a knife" routine on this one. Taeha Types, Glarses, Hipyo Tech, Switch and Click, et al, would like to have a word.
And I'm typing this on a fully custom, hand soldered, hand lubed, modded Maja V2 from KBDFans and MT3 keycaps from Drop. Easily costs more than all those boards in that post combined. And let's just say this is not my only keyboard.
Honestly, all you really need is to lube the switches. That’s biggest benefit. A lubed mechanical switch, even the cheapest generic red, out performs anything off the shelf.
Totally agree. You can take a basic mechanical keyboard from Amazon with hot swap switches, lube them. Maybe do a basic tape mod (just put masking tape on the back of the PCB) and get like 85% of the benefit of a high end keyboard. This is what I've done for the rest of my family's keyboards.
I love this. I've spent countless hours and hundreds of dollars pursuing an "Ortholinear Ms Natural 4000 with Cherry MX Blues". Custom laser cut outs. Hand wire wrapped. Custom firmware.
It was tons of fun. But at the end of the day, I keep coming back to my Ergodox. I'm just so used to it now after all these years I don't think I could give it up.
It's like those articles on gaming addiction where they're like "Anthony (27) spends up to 8 hours a week playing an online game, and his parents are worried about him!"
Now I have an Advantage 3 with Box White switches, after admittedly talking to an Upgrade Keyboards key switch sommelier, which I admit somewhat undercuts my first sentence in this comment.
The 3 is basically the same except you have real F keys and can upload settings to it via USB. Both are great keyboards. I’ve used them for well over a decade.
I went from 1's and 2's w/ custom controllers to a 360pro. It's largely the same board in terms of geometry. There are a few more keys, which are welcome, it's ZMK programmable (pro only). The writ wrests, extra, are better and don't seem to deform/wear out like the old ones. It's much less 'hollow', feels much more solid. The tenting is pretty awesome, the split is welcome. I would buy the pbt keys for extra $, the keys they ship are shit. I also pulled the DSA homerow from one of my advantages and used it here, they moved away from those special home row caps for cost reasons.
I have been using the Freestyle Pro for the last 4 years now and it has ended me thinking about keyboards. I was really looking forward to the new super fancy one, but that felt too expensive when I already have one I am happy with it. ~600 Euros in DE when I remember correctly.
Same here. I've been a Kinesis fan since 2012 and went through several Freestyles, and for the last 5 years or so I've rocked the Edge (basically a Pro with rgb lights and mech switches). I was really looking forward to the Advantage360 but the UK price is mental: £590 for the cordless version. Yes, it's a great keyboard that will likely last a decade, but I'm not convinced the gains are big enough to justify the cost.
>Aren't those like $500 a pop? Handing out that kind of dough for a keyboard sounds like the opposite of stopping being much into keyboards.
A keyboard can last 20+ years, while a computer around 5 years before it becomes obsolete, more or less. People buy other keyboards because it’s missing something. The kinesis while not perfect is the best keyboard you can buy without building your own from scratch. Nothing comes close, except datahand, but they don’t make those anymore. I stopped buying keyboards after the kinesis.
Someone owning only one car, and it being a $100k+ Mercedes, probably means they aren’t into cars as a hobby. They found a great vehicle they like and can afford, they enjoy driving it regularly, and it meets all of their needs. There is nothing wrong with that, and, in fact, it sounds awesome.
However, someone who has 5-6 sub-$10k cars in their garage is almost definitely very into cars. It is about tinkering with them, racing them, restoring, building project cars, doing car shows, collecting them, etc. Doesn’t have to be all of those at all, just any single one (including those I haven’t explicitly mentioned there) would be more than enough.
The pricing doesn’t have much to do with someone being into a hobby. My personal guess is that it is more about how much time you actively dedicate to it.
I'd almost surely have lost my career in software if it weren't for some solution (the solution of which for me was a Kinesis Advantage). I used the PS2 version for a decade, then bought a USB version, which I've used for at least 20 years at this point. I bought both used, but if I'd paid 2x the new price, it would still have been well worth it.
They are, but up until the new split version came out I used the same keyboard since ~2001. I picked up a couple more for sub 100$ when i saw them on craigslist/offerup. One for home, one for the office, a spare, and one to lend out.
Like others I credit my first kinesis with saving my career. I was starting to get RSI issues, doctor put me in braces and I showed him the kinesis site to see what he thought about their claims, if any of his other patients had tried. He thought it passed the smell test, I bought one the next day and drove out to the HQ (they are near seattle) and picked it up.
It takes a bit to get used to it, especially if you aren't a strong touch typist. The columner layout is weird at first, the wells are weird at first, the thumb clusters are weird at first. Within a month I was back up to speed and was able to shed my bracers soon after.
I recently purchased an Alice format ergonomic keyboard, the keychron k15 pro [1]. It has a split design, but otherwise it’s totally flat. How much of an improvement do you think a more ergonomically shaped keyboard l8ke a kinesis makes?
I switched to advantages more than 20 years ago, but i still keep building new mechanicals, a couple for me (playing games on an advantage is ... hilarious), some for friends. But I hear this. I went to a 360pro with browns (because I ordered it direct before the upgrade keyboards stuff went live). Maybe I'll swap them out some day (one of the used advantage 2s I picked up a few years back was the RedLF model and I thought I'd hate it, but for 50$ who can refuse, but I found myself preferring it over the brown model).
I have bought at least twice as many keyboards as this dude - build 15 from scratch plus designed my own low profile hand wired dactyls - and I don’t have a problem.
I’m not much of a writer. I do it mostly to optimize comfort while coding. I did think about posting some pics from my journey and my custom Zmk/qmk setup and key layout. But alas, there are many things to work on besides keyboards.
But if there’s something specific you have in mind I can try to answer here.
Perhaps that's normal in the enthusiast communities you frequent, and perhaps it should be normal for members in a society as dependent on typing as modern humans, but you're definitely quite a few standard deviations away from the mean.
Heck, in my engineering office (a bubble if there ever was one) there are only two other people who own more than one keyboard at home or know what a "mechanical" keyboard is, and most of us only have a couple 'special' keyboards. Most of my family and non-work friends have either one or zero, if you don't count on-screen keyboards on phones and tablets or integrated keyboards on laptops (which I don't think should count).
Yeah, it was a bit tongue in cheek. The thing is that once you try something that isn’t the 20 dollar Walmart keyboard but a good ergonomic keyboard, heck, even a half assed, ergo keyboard - you realize how much better things could be. And down the rabbit hole you go. I’m hoping it’s a phase. But it’s also a fun hobby. Albeit a costly one.
Ditto! A couple of random (not even a custom built) mechanical keyboards, plus an Apple one, plus MX Masters (the most popular keyboard, I assume). Even me, I had tried like 10 times more keyboards. And I’m not even obsessed with them, just your average computer nerd with 20+ years of experience and friends, with whom I can swap keyboards, to play with.
...two of which have near-identical layouts, and one of which I'm typing on now!
I have literally dozens of keyboards: mechanical, split, ergonomic, mobile, the list should end but it doesn't... And yet I'm typing on this split, tented, rubber dome Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic. It has tactile keys, and such an extraordinarily low profile that I can type with it on my lap with my wrists pointed down. It has function keys and I don't need a second layer or FN key to access home/end/pageup/pagedown. The spacebar is split so it doesn't bind like many single-body split keyboards. And it's wireless!
This mass-produced, reasonably inexpensive keyboard is not perfect in any way, but it's 90% to perfect in almost every single way.
Yeah I don’t think any of these folks have that much of an issue. Compare with the people spending thousands or even millions of dollars on little rectangles of printed paperboard and locking them away inside little display cases!
My keyboard journey led me to a committed ltr with a topre realforce rgb, with the dampeners added under the keys. My mouse is a left handed steelseries sensei 10.
yeah, I often have more keyboards than that on my desk at one time. (But as someone who knows Marcin Wichary and Jesse Vincent - I don't have a problem, I am the problem :)
I've built the same keyboard four times over the last three years.
Version 1 used a Teensy++ and Box Pale Blue switches.
Version 2 used a Teensy++ and Matias Click switches, and added a bodged-on OLED. This required a completely new PCB design.
Version 3 used the same PCB, and some more Matias switches from my parts box, but swapped in a nanoCH32V305 controller using a little interposer adapter board. It was mostly to work the kinks out of the custom firmware for the CH32V305.
Version 4 ended up with footprints to use either Alps or MX-footprint switches and either the Teensy or nanoCH32V305. I now have stacks of spare PCBs and plates, just waiting for a better switch than Box White v2.
The best keyboard I ever had was Velocifire VM02WS. It has mechanical brown switches, and it worked flawlessly for more than 5 years. Then the left control key broke down.
The rest of the keyboards I have used, no matter mechanical or not, failed after 1-2 years of use. Typically, it was the left control key.
Currently I’m using some gamer-targeted keyboard with ridiculous blue LEDs which had “more than 15 million cycles” label on the box. So far so good, but I liked the mechanical ones better.
Nice to see the Noppoo Choc Mini! I had the same keyboard, got me through 5 years of starcraft 2 and another 5 years of brood war remastered. Had to retire it when I stopped playing starcraft and now use a kinesis advantage360 pro when working/programming.
If you haven't used a split keyboard, I highly recommend it! It feels way more natural typing and less stressful on your wrists. I still use a kinesis freestyle 2 on my desktop pc, good enough for most games too. It feels alien at first but you quickly adapt. It's also not hard to go back and forth between the different types of keyboards.
A white noppoo choc mini was my introduction to mechanical keyboards, I still have it and it works without any issues but it now sits in my cabinet next to my desk. Got it because Reckful (RIP) had one and was doing a lot of typeracer back then and I liked the click/clack sounds it made. Nowadays I'm using a Ducky DK2108 with a set of double-shot PBT keycaps, the keyboard is indestructible and looks brand new, can't justify replacing it.
However, for a device that I use 50 hours a week -- not so expensive.
If you're a software engineer, you probably use your car a lot less than your keyboard. You _probably_ spent north of $20k for your car and you use it for ~7 hours per week, max?
Agree but "import fees to latin america, I might not like the switches and there is no market to resell, I don't have that much pain, gym also helps, I think going back and forth between Kinesis and MBP keyboard would be hard, etc" and it stays in that range of "should I".
Also I recently spent a similar value on a sit-stand table and totally regret that purchase - I mostly sit and could always walk outside instead of standing..
388 comments
[ 2.2 ms ] story [ 460 ms ] threadSometime around '97 I got a bunch of real Model M's from a school; spent a while refurbishing up a bunch of them, and then used that stack for like 20 years. They lived an average of 3yr under my hands.
Since then i use unicomp "new model M". This one has been going stong for 2+yr now, expect it to start losing function soon. Tried a couple different logitech "mechanical" and beat them to death in under a year.
My stuff would last longer if i used one of those "keyboard condom" things but those are worse than using a $10 disposable "flexible" bodyless thing, anyway. the cure is worse than the disease.
How can you destroy a Model M?
My m13 has lasted 20 years - though it needs a new cable because of flakey plastic.
I had one of those for a bit but it had constant firmware issues. usb dropouts and resets that required a full power-off. had to return it.
was an OK repro as far as the typing feel goes, though.
https://www.keychron.com/collections/all-keyboards/products/...
https://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/filco-convertible-2-tenk...
They recently announced a budget friendly version the C3 Pro that's wired (USB-C) only that looks like it might actually satisfy my requirements.
There's still some relearning because key placement is slightly different (sometimes I hit spacebar instead of left alt/command).
Also, I think the MX Keys that he likes is flat (ortholinear?) and the K-series has a slight stagger to the keys (but I also didn't find it to be an issue).
I'm happy for this person that they so utterly lack an awareness of what an unhealthy relationship actually looks like. Although a small evil part of me wants to send then a mountain of cocaine so they can find out.
My latest is the Launch Heavy with Kaith Brown keys that arrived yesterday (with a new system). It's replacing a gaming keyboard I've had for more than a decade.
I'm not even "in to keyboards," I've simply been using computer equipment at home for so long that I have them around.
My dad worked in IT and used the same keyboard for like 20+ years. Part of me hopes that one day I can find a board that survives for an extended period of time, but I guess modern spending habits and build quality has changed. I have to buy a new phone every 2/3 years for the same reasons.
It's basically a slightly nicer mechanical tenkeyless than the original IBM SSK: lighter, slimmer, native USB, and more simultaneous keypresses, but still hefty and solid, with the same buckling spring action and wonderful curved backplate.
Unicomp's brand new Model M keyboards are also quite affordable by custom keyboard standards: $125 for a New Model M, $150 for a buckling spring Mac keyboard, and $150 for the excellent Mini M.
I have some of the more common, modular custom keyboards with the Cherry-compatible switches and all that. By and large, they're more expensive and more work to get into an agreeable actuation force range if you're used to dealing with real buckling spring switches. At the same time, the actuation force curve is never quite right because the 'tactile bump' of such a switch always involves a brief spike in actuation force instead of the regular increase and then collapsing action you get with a buckling spring.
If you've never used a buckling spring keyboard, you may find that you prefer some of the newer switches, especially the ones that don't imitate the 'clickiness' or heaviness of IBM/Unicomp buckling spring switches. But IMHO a brand new buckling spring keyboard is not just cheaper but plain better to type on them any of the more expensive, more 'modern' options.
What do I have to buy to get a functioning keyboard? A shell? Switches? Other stuff? I really don't know what I'm looking at.
Anyone got a good entry point?
It is not too hard these days to buy a complete and immediately usable keyboard on line. But it does help to know what you are looking for because there are choices to be made around format, switches, keycaps, etc.
Keychron has several models of different sizes that give you good options on size vs. function vs. price: V8/V10, Q8/Q10, K15 Pro, etc. They sell on Amazon, their own site and some mech kbd vendors as well. Their own site is the only one that carries the entire product line, however.
Akkogear has a model (ACR Pro Alice Plus) that's quite affordable and good build quality.
Feker Alice boards from Epomaker are another good choice.
The layout looks cool.
The only two ergonomic things about it are that the letters are slightly split apart, and slightly at an angle. (The thumb gets to press more keys than on a standard keyboard, but not as many as on better keyboards).
The layouts tend to have weird features, stuff like: the digit for 6 is placed on the left-hand side; or that it's got pinky-finger modifiers, but not 3 on each side. Many layouts also drop the function row (indicating users are expected to use layers), but retain a nav cluster. - The layout of the alphabetical keys is also weirdly asymmetric.
(A pause key would be nice too. I think I can survive without ScrLk.)
I like having a numeric keypad, but that can always be bought separately.
Volume controls and mute would be a nice. I like them separate, but Fn+something is acceptable.
Even if I'd never buy any of them, I do like the fact that there are all these different layouts. But it's a constant mystery to me why none of them are remotely like the very standard MS split layout that's been around for over 25 years.
Kinesis Advantage2 are the negative shape of your hands and the split lines up with your shoulder width. Love my Kinesis Advantage2.
Second favorite is the Logitech K780. It feels a lot like the MX Keys but with round key caps.
I haven't had the need to disassemble it for cleaning so I use a small brush to remove crumbs and stuff. Sometimes I too feel that it is large, but still the numpad is convenient. The alternative would be a 'compact' design but I don't like how they cram the Enter key in a single row and make the up and down keys half of the height of a normal key.
My complain against it is its privative nature - with Linux, you can't use the screen brightness keys unless you install something like Logiops or Solaar. Alas I've found Logips a bit buggy so when you're running it the mouse wheel becomes really glitchy so you have to restart it.
I'd like it to have one of these wheels some keyboards have to control volume or something else, a second Meta key and that one could make it so when powering it up it started with no backlight.
I ended up buying the same keyboard for home and I really enjoy typing on it. My only complaint is that it's difficult to remove the keycaps for cleaning and some dust somehow got inside and I can see it on the little solar panels.
Typing preferences are very subjective, but I've grown to really enjoy working on this keyboard. I've used it so much that the texture has pretty much worn off of most of the keys and I'm starting to lose the printed letters on the key caps. I've thought about buying a few replacements and storing them because no product is sold forever...
It was a really good board. But I remember it having quite a lot of flex in the plastic. My letters wore off pretty quickly and frustratingly the solar cells eventually died and the thing stopped charging all together.
> the solar cells eventually died
Mine stopped charging too but in my case it was because the little rechargeable battery had wore out. There's a battery tray on the back that you slide out and replace it and it's been working ever since for me. If the solar panels themselves eventually die, then maybe that's why there aren't more of these on the market.
They also don't take up that much space really.
If your keyboard is a portable one you pack with you on trips, I get it. If it lives on a desk, why not splash out the small amount extra to make number entry much easier.
* less desk real estate needed
* many of us aren't doing much number entry at all
Even with weird combinations, like holding '1' and pressing '9' to autotype '192.168.0.'.
If you're using IPs there something wrong with your process.
Cannot speak to the fashion side of it but my original motivator to move to a keypad less was to reduce the distance of the mouse to my typing space. I do not do any type of data entry and rarely type numbers with enough frequency to require it.
First one I had was a CoolerMaster Storm Quickfire TK, now I'm on a Keychron K4V2. I actually liked the TK better, but it's completely worn out and I couldn't seem to find a similar layout on a new keyboard.
Went through a lot, trackballs, 2 mice, narrow keyboards, but the left hand mouse was the one that fixed the biomechanical issues, and they haven't returned in 20+ years.
Having a "tenkeyless" means my mouse position is aligned with my shoulder, with a full width keyboard my arm would be rotated constantly, leading to pain.
The MS Sculpt (in the article) comes with a number pad as well, I've had it for years and left the number pad in the drawer.
Typing numbers on a single row is not an issue for me, so numpad brings me little benefits and significant drawbacks.
Annoying because, yes entering numbers is a problem.
Not annoying because the mouse is closer.
Ay! another civ 2 fan! I agree it's painful to play that game without a numpad. I also used it with some tactical shooters to radio compass directions to my team. 'Enemy spotted south south east!' It came in handy.
I would consider a separate numpad so it can be moved around if needed, but that need never really comes up for me.
Also any time my hands leave the home row it feels kinda wrong.
2. I almost never do number entry, but if I do I have a dedicated number pad.
I've used the old Mac 104 key aluminium wired keyboard for about 10 years now. I originally used it with Linux and now with MacOS at work and my home Windows PC. I've occasionally had minor difficulties with mapping but nothing insurmountable.
The only time I miss it is gaming. Flight/Space sims, Factorio, things like that really benefit from a numpad. Otherwise, I'm not typing numbers enough to care.
If the board has QMK/remappable firmware, then they can add a virtual layer that does have a numpad. That's what I did for my Let's Split keyboard.
I truly do not mean to be insulting or anything, but I read comments like this a lot and they really confuse me. I don't need a numpad because I know how to touch type and don't have trouble putting in numbers with the number row without looking, I never used the numpad even when I had a keyboard that had one.
For why I got a board without it, ergonomics. My mouse is where the numpad would've been. Having a shorter keyboard reduces the distance between my hands at the points where I need to use a mouse to about shoulder width, keeping my arms aligned with my shoulders and greatly reduces shoulder impinging issues I was having.
Another issue is when doing data entry or 2fa codes, one hand tends to be busy holding something. The number row is basically unusable one-handed as far as I'm concerned.
And for me, mouse distance from the keyboard has never been an issue, because I use them in different scenarios. It's not often that I'm dual wielding them to the point shoulder angles are a concern. If I'm spending hours coding, the amount of mouse usage is going to be minimal.
Also possible I never needed to enter numbers often enough prior to learning to touch type with the num row to incentivize finding a more efficient method and once I was regularly typing a lot of numbers my num row method was sufficient.
Also while I don’t remember the exact timeline, because of my dad’s employer, Thinkpads were one of the main types of computers I used as a kid meaning I spent a lot of time growing up using built in laptop keyboards without numpads.
It’s interesting how random quirks during childhood can result in very different ways of looking at a certain topic later in life.
I definitely did a bad job explaining the kb + mouse thing. Writing code I rarely touch the mouse and if I do its for UI navigation that doesn’t support key strokes or is faster by mouse (usually stuff in a browser) so I’m mostly not using the keyboard at the same time (one exception being ctrl/cmd clicking links). I actually keep a trackpad to the left of my keyboard (I’m left handed) which I generally use to mouse during work with minimal arm movement.
The situation where I was getting shoulder issues was playing video games. Getting a compact keyboard let me move my normal hand position inward to be better aligned while playing without the risk my mouse hits the side of the keyboard. I’ve worked from home for almost a decade using the same desk/monitor/keyboard/mouse setup for work and play and since I never used the keypad anyway it was no big deal to just switch both contexts even if doing so was initially only related to gaming.
Also those keyboards without a number block seem to have bad positions for cursor and other special keys.
I was being a bit ignorant but was ok looking dumb in hopes of getting a better understanding of that other perspective. Mainly expressed my own as context for where I was coming from. Like yes, I think my opinion is objectively correct (which leaked in some), but I apologized in advance cause I recognize my doing so is irrational.
To maybe balance out my coming off as superior, until moving to a country with chip and pin where it was regularly necessary, I could not touch type on a keypad. I would screw up embarrassingly often when forced to use one. Even once lost a card to an ATM after typing my pin wrong too many times. I rarely used one and thus lacked the muscle memory while typing numbers with the row is engrained from doing it so often for so long.
I will not however have my good name besmirched by the implication I use a mouse while writing code! I’m an old curmudgeon who’s completely incapable of moving off of vim, I would never soil myself in such a manner. The mouse is used if I’m on MacOS where the UI lacks good keyboard navigation as well as the main situation I was having ergonomic issues during, playing video games.
Sincerely,
A curmudgeonly old emacs user
Anyway, I'm currently using an Ergodox EZ and it's very simple: I have a numpad "layer" activated with a key. The keyboard already has the right layout, so activating this layer with the left hand lets me quickly enter a number with my right hand (from the home row).
I sometimes try to go back to full size keyboard but I just can't take it for more than a few hours. It's just too uncomfortable. I'd love to have a keyboard with the numpad on the left side.
If I were a lefty with regards to mousing I'd use a full size keyboard and be happy.
Personally, I just have a layer that I activate with my right thumb to turn the m,.jkluio keys into 123456789, so it's like having a number pad, but one that doesn't take up any space.
I don't really have any beef with those who want a smaller keyboard (though I don't really understand it - no way is your desk so small that saving a few inches actually makes a difference). But it is a real bummer that makers of high-end keyboards only cater to that crowd, and don't make nice keyboards that are full size. I would love to get a GMMK Pro, for example - if only it was in the form factor I want.
I've tried a couple of numberless keyboards and those crowd my mouse area. I am firmly and permanently settled on the Apple keyboard. It is tiny, silent and perfectly reliable.
(In a bizarre side note, I left one out in the rain the other day, a downpour. It still worked.)
It's not about desk space, it's about ergonomics.
The small size is nice for portability -- my keyboard is split and wireless, so I can easily stick it in my backpack and set it in front of my laptop on a table anywhere. But again, the main benefit of a compact layout for me is ergonomics rather than size.
I use separate keypad for number entry (not this one exactly, but you get the idea): https://www.amazon.com/MOTOSPEED-Mechanical-Portable-Backlig...
OK, I've read all the answers so far, in the hope that somebody had told you before, but no!
I don't use the numpad, so it's useless to me. But does it harm? In the case of these keyboards, not so much, except for the reason others have already explained of more distance for the mouse. I can live with it, but my next keyboard will be numpad-less for sure.
If we talk about laptops, that's a different story. Numpads for those are terrible, for me anyway.
They shift the center of the hands, that is between G and H, from the center of the laptop and thus the center of the screen, so your hands are in an unnatural position.
If you center an external wide keyboard, you get the same effect. I don't, but I try to use the GH line... "try" because the push from the mouse always tend to move it to the left.
So now you know, for some of us it's not a question of fashion, but usability :)
For an accountant or someone whose keyboard usage is exceedingly numbers-centric, then sure. But as a default option, it's a space eating waste.
10/10 would recommend a separate numpad. Also good for macros in games or Photoshop or whatever.
My wife on the other hand has a custom keyboard with a num pad on each side so she can num pad with a mouse in her hand.
People have different needs. And different workflows. Not sure why that's news to you.
I can assume that people with narrow shoulders would prefer a narrow layout on their desk.
Because it's bad ergonomics, if you're right-handed. It puts the mouse too far to the right.
And I've been using computers for decades but can't recall a single time I ever did numeric "data entry".
That just feels like a relic of when office workers were entering amounts from stacks of printed invoices by hand.
I try to use my keyboard whenever possible, but sometimes reaching to my mouse is just easier. Moving my hand 5 inches is already bad, but having to move it 10-15 inches every time I want to use the mouse is terrible.
And all for what? For having to enter a phone number or credit card number once a month into some form? The tradeoff is not worth it for most people.
As a programmer, I don't need a numpad very often, having long strings of numbers are not very common in my field. Sure, sometimes I need to write numbers, but they are one or two character long, and having them above the keys is better experience as I don't need to move my hand so far.
But I do use my tenkey pretty often and want it around.
[1] https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku
What I hate are those tiny arrow keys on the Mac keyboard
Good that the author pointed out the inability of removing keys to clean with the Logi MX. I'd have sprung for that but dislike anything that is potentially going to become garbage.
Mechanical keyboards or building custom ones, especially those with Cherry MX keys, are where the excitement lies.
You might not have had the chance to explore them all yet; there's an abundance of various types available.
Just one of my hand-build, custom switch, aluminium-case, custom-firmware,"artisan" keycap, mechanical keyboards would buy all of those on OPs list, probably twice over.
It's good that OP is keeping a lid on their keyboard buying habits (as with anything), but realistically, OP isn't even in the same _universe_ as the people with the _real_ unhealthy keyboard habits.
There are/were people on the mechanical keyboard sub-reddit whose keyboard collections reach into the tens of thousands of dollars.
But gotta generate that clickbait headline ;)
Although if you can hold forth on how to find old keyboards on eBay, that may also qualify.
My first job was very much a garage shop web hosting business so I just rummaged through the boxes and found an old IBM model M (not realizing its later cult status).
At another later job I just grabbed a full length apple keyboard with numpad that was laying around. During boring times at that job I placed in top 20 at typeracer with that keyboard.
Whenever I tried to be like other nerd friends and buy a cool nerdy clicketyclack keyboard I always ended up disappointed.
Now the last 15 years or so I mostly used Thinkpad keyboards and they're just fine.
Felt a lot like you know, a ~2000s thinkpad keyboard, low profile concave caps, like how laptops felt before every laptop became a crappy macbook clone with flat keycaps. It went out of production like a decade or more ago and nothing has been close to the same ever since.
Currently using a Cherry Stream TKL. Probably the best keyboard I've had for years and it was dirt cheap.
Out of curiosity, why not?
I actually prefer them to most keyboards. I wish I could make the full size one tenkeyless, not a fan of the cramped smaller one.
Is that an option for you?
Whenever someone complains about their keyboard Bluetooth not connecting, or their batteries dying, I gently raise it in the air and point at it.
Not an unhealthy relationship at all!
Honestly, all you really need is to lube the switches. That’s biggest benefit. A lubed mechanical switch, even the cheapest generic red, out performs anything off the shelf.
Now I have a number of mechanicals (i love, or did..) that I side-eye as they don't have that hearty damp at the end. :/
(i consistently work at 3 desks, only have gasket on one)
The same can be said about heroin.
(A couple of Das Keyboards here and only one is even modified, but let's say I'm mechanical-curious. :P )
It was tons of fun. But at the end of the day, I keep coming back to my Ergodox. I'm just so used to it now after all these years I don't think I could give it up.
Have you seen an auto mechanic's toolbox, or carpenter's tool crib?
Using the wrong tool, or even one which is only a few percent less efficient than optimal, is a mistake.
Now I have an Advantage 3 with Box White switches, after admittedly talking to an Upgrade Keyboards key switch sommelier, which I admit somewhat undercuts my first sentence in this comment.
I genuinely hope this is someone's official job title somewhere.
"How about some cherry mx blue and caviar while we take over the world?"
Aren't those like $500 a pop? Handing out that kind of dough for a keyboard sounds like the opposite of stopping being much into keyboards.
This said, they used to be cheaper.
A keyboard can last 20+ years, while a computer around 5 years before it becomes obsolete, more or less. People buy other keyboards because it’s missing something. The kinesis while not perfect is the best keyboard you can buy without building your own from scratch. Nothing comes close, except datahand, but they don’t make those anymore. I stopped buying keyboards after the kinesis.
However, someone who has 5-6 sub-$10k cars in their garage is almost definitely very into cars. It is about tinkering with them, racing them, restoring, building project cars, doing car shows, collecting them, etc. Doesn’t have to be all of those at all, just any single one (including those I haven’t explicitly mentioned there) would be more than enough.
The pricing doesn’t have much to do with someone being into a hobby. My personal guess is that it is more about how much time you actively dedicate to it.
Do you type things 8 hours a day? Then 500 USD for a keyboard that lasts you two decades is money well spent, if it makes you happy.
Like others I credit my first kinesis with saving my career. I was starting to get RSI issues, doctor put me in braces and I showed him the kinesis site to see what he thought about their claims, if any of his other patients had tried. He thought it passed the smell test, I bought one the next day and drove out to the HQ (they are near seattle) and picked it up.
It takes a bit to get used to it, especially if you aren't a strong touch typist. The columner layout is weird at first, the wells are weird at first, the thumb clusters are weird at first. Within a month I was back up to speed and was able to shed my bracers soon after.
[1]: https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k15-pro-alice-lay...
have you used this for gaming? specifically FPSs and MMORPGs where left hand needs easy access to the right side of the split-keyboard?
But if there’s something specific you have in mind I can try to answer here.
Heck, in my engineering office (a bubble if there ever was one) there are only two other people who own more than one keyboard at home or know what a "mechanical" keyboard is, and most of us only have a couple 'special' keyboards. Most of my family and non-work friends have either one or zero, if you don't count on-screen keyboards on phones and tablets or integrated keyboards on laptops (which I don't think should count).
I have literally dozens of keyboards: mechanical, split, ergonomic, mobile, the list should end but it doesn't... And yet I'm typing on this split, tented, rubber dome Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic. It has tactile keys, and such an extraordinarily low profile that I can type with it on my lap with my wrists pointed down. It has function keys and I don't need a second layer or FN key to access home/end/pageup/pagedown. The spacebar is split so it doesn't bind like many single-body split keyboards. And it's wireless!
This mass-produced, reasonably inexpensive keyboard is not perfect in any way, but it's 90% to perfect in almost every single way.
Version 1 used a Teensy++ and Box Pale Blue switches. Version 2 used a Teensy++ and Matias Click switches, and added a bodged-on OLED. This required a completely new PCB design. Version 3 used the same PCB, and some more Matias switches from my parts box, but swapped in a nanoCH32V305 controller using a little interposer adapter board. It was mostly to work the kinks out of the custom firmware for the CH32V305. Version 4 ended up with footprints to use either Alps or MX-footprint switches and either the Teensy or nanoCH32V305. I now have stacks of spare PCBs and plates, just waiting for a better switch than Box White v2.
The rest of the keyboards I have used, no matter mechanical or not, failed after 1-2 years of use. Typically, it was the left control key.
Currently I’m using some gamer-targeted keyboard with ridiculous blue LEDs which had “more than 15 million cycles” label on the box. So far so good, but I liked the mechanical ones better.
If you haven't used a split keyboard, I highly recommend it! It feels way more natural typing and less stressful on your wrists. I still use a kinesis freestyle 2 on my desktop pc, good enough for most games too. It feels alien at first but you quickly adapt. It's also not hard to go back and forth between the different types of keyboards.
However, for a device that I use 50 hours a week -- not so expensive.
If you're a software engineer, you probably use your car a lot less than your keyboard. You _probably_ spent north of $20k for your car and you use it for ~7 hours per week, max?
$350 is nothing for a primary tool of your trade.
Also I recently spent a similar value on a sit-stand table and totally regret that purchase - I mostly sit and could always walk outside instead of standing..