Ask HN: After 3 years of crypto trading, how to return to the normal job market?
Hello guys,
It has been a crazy ride. I'm basically an (crypto) algo trader. This was kind of a dream. Made it true. Worked well. Did it on my own.
Now would like to have a "normal" job again. Maybe in Data Science or Robotics (although no exprience, but this would be very exciting). Anyway.
What do you think. Should I mention that I was basically unemployed the last 3 years and did crypto trading?
I think from the technical part, it was very challeging. Also I was able to beat the competition for quite a long time.
On the other hand, I can't prove anything I say and there is no reference that proves that I actually was that good.
How would you handle this? I mean it is kind of weird to be honest.
40 comments
[ 4.2 ms ] story [ 304 ms ] threadI think that the desks that I worked with in the City (derivatives, credit, high speed trading), though a while ago now, would be interested in your experiences for trading many things. They'd probably have to interview you hard!
(I've only been on someone else's payroll for a short time, maybe 5% of my working life, so that is not a problem if you showcase it right, IMHO.)
But the thing is, I just would like to do something else. Trading is not that exciting anymore. It was a tough battle for the last years, resulting in incremental improvemts to speed, strategy and infrastructure. Now kind of ready for something new. Also would love to learn something new as well.
Sure could provide my tax statements, as a proof. Just think it is weird to do so. Also the numbers are kind of high - so would rather let it be private.
In this context "kind of high" might be only a couple of million in profits. Enough to not want people to know, but not enough to retire on.
After taxes and after paying for living expenses for MB and family for the last 3 years, $2M could easily be around half-a-million. Depending on where they live, that might be more like a downpayment on a house rather than a funded retirement.
We have totally different ideas about this, lol..
For sure if money would be the only metric, I should try to stick to trading. Even if my stuff doesn't work, I could try to join some prop trading shop. Could imagine doing so to be honest, but right now just want to try something new.
Consider doing a DS-flavoured degree, eg at Master's level, part-time? Maybe do something more mundane part time to pay for it?
If someone needs "proof" of something that you know is true, you don't need to work for them and it's likely some kind of "dance for my entertainment" rather than a genuine "I'll hire MB, but only if he can prove this one thing with paperwork."
I had a fairly senior hiring manager for an investment bank call me a liar to my face, basically because he couldn't understand how a consultant can have more than one client at once, and so my CV is non-linear! I dodged a bullet there.
Initially Google used to send US cheques, in USD. So I had to go to the bank to deposit those in my personal account, which required a branch manager to sign it because 1. Who is Google and 2. Why is someone getting a large-ish cheque from a company overseas (AML laws).
Anyway, at some point I've decided to incorporate a company. Trying to explain to my accountant what my company was doing (online publishing), and trying to explain to the bank this was not a money laundering operation required some effort.
People had no idea that one could make money on the Internet.
Advertising for them had to fit in a TV, billboard, radio or cinema square. Anything else was science fiction.
I then left my 17-year full-time as a mainframe developer (yep) to run my company full-time. You can't imagine the run around I had when I tried to find a home loan for our first home a year later - how do you make money? was always the question. It didn't matter that my answer was "I am the owner/director of a company". They wanted to know what my company was doing and just "online publishing" wasn't enough. Even with tax records and everything.
So I empathise with the OP on how to demonstrate skills and experience while being self-employed.
Did you get money to live from cryptocoins trading? Then you were "self employed", not "unemployed".
I would pick one or more job titles that are both relevant to the job you're applying for and to the work you did and put those on your resume, e.g.
Crypto trader/blockchain developer/investment analyst (self-employed)
- Developed trading platform with X latency
- Implemented blah blah algorithm
- (Throw in more metrics about how you were able to beat competition)
The proof is the skills you built along the way, the same as any job you put on your resume. In data science, at least, we're rarely asked for references. Don't think of yourself as unemployed during that time, and especially don't call yourself unemployed.
- real time trading system on orderbook level
- market research and visualisation
- timeseries modelling with different algorithms
- research different approaches, like reinforcement learning for trading
- database design and optimization. Currently the database has 42 billion entries
- web3 coding with solidity
- software architecture
- logging, don't lough. Huge part. Very hard to implement.
How did I beat the competition:
- was quicker than any one else.
- Also guess had more clever strategies, but it is hard to get into the details.
The more detailed you can be, the more "real" your job experience will look. For example, list the time series algorithms you used and quantity how they helped (error metrics, % return, comparison to a naive forecast, etc). I already mentioned latency. Optimizing your code and data for speed is something interesting you could get into too.
Or even within crypto, there's still plenty of big reputable firms doing it.
As for track... half the interview will revolve around technical questions and knowledge of the markets - which sounds like you have. As for track - how did you trade? On chain? You could provide wallet address. On CEX? You could make screenshots or sth. But frankly Id think evidence won't be the stumbling block.
Having done it self employed will only make it more impressive.
Like a job at faang, would be exciting (pretty sure very hard to get into it with my profile). The goal would be anyway to learn as much as possible.
PS: Even thought about applying to internships, for jobs that are a bit outside of my skill set. But guess that is a bit weird as well
Having a business is a legal way to reduce your tax bill.
And if you don't need one... sounds like you first have to figure out what you want to do :)
Good luck!
Agree it is just a normal application process in the end, had the feeling that my journey as a trader would be disadvantageous, but it seems to be okay according to the comments! So thanks again.
What the actual fuck is a blockchain for if you can't prove anything with it??
Let's say it depends highly who you are talking to. If it is someone who has never done prop trading, it would be difficult to convince him about anything. It is very easy to dismiss any gains from crypto as pure luck.
Hence I want to suggest you launch a solo small scale software consultancy, or together with a friend or two, just to keep some coin inflow. It’s hard but not entirely impossible. Don’t lose SWE skills, keep up with the new tech. Solve small problems for moderate coin and maybe fun, maybe help some friends with their IT problems, learn at your own pace.
And in your free time go seriously touch some real grass. Learn how to bake good bread, brew beer, gardening, how to play a music instrument, perfumery, woodworking, whatever physical, concrete. If you have a restless curious brain, it might find the amount of nuance in guitar building (or guitar pedal building) quite fascinating.
In other words, get real physical. When, after some time of learning and struggles, you hold in your hands something that’s awesome and that was made by you, it feels goddamn amazing. And with a fat account balance and freedom to do what you want it feels even better.
I wouldn't frame it that way. If you made enough money to cover your rent and living expenses, and weren't collecting unemployment from your local government, then you weren't unemployed. You had a non-traditonal, remote/work from home job, that others would be envious of. Just because there's no office, no boss, no timecard doesn't mean you were unemployed. I'm betting you spent many many hours in front of a computer to get your Algo edge in order to make money. That's called a job.
> On the other hand, I can't prove anything I say and there is no reference that proves that I actually was that good.
It's on the block chain. Make a transaction and sign it with the hash of "I'm Michael Baer and <secret salt>" so if anyone doubts your story, you can tell them what the secret salt is so they can follow the transactions on the chain itself if they don't believe you're the owner of the wallet you say you are.
The beauty of companies that use leetcode as their hiring bar is that a smart person who didn't get an ivy league degree and doesn't have traditional experience they can put on their resume means that you can still walk in the front door, ace the test, and get a job.
On your resume, dig into what you did as an Algo trader. What code you had to write, what data analysis you did in order to get that edge, etc.