Arc has been my default browser for a few months, and I love this as an idea. Implementation kinks will need to worked out, apparently.
5-second previews don't give me much beyond the page title and maybe a subheading.
Ask on page told me it encountered an error 3 out of the 4 times I tried it, and the one time it worked it told me the article was long, so it only read 32% (I can do that! that's why I'm asking you!). But it did answer the question I asked (then errored on the follow-up).
I've looked into Arc in the past and it feels like such a fundamental departure from how browsers are normally used. How do you use it and how does it feel better to use than your previous browser?
It takes a bit of getting used to. But after using it for a few weeks now, it feels a bit more intuitive for a power user or someone who loves their keyboard shortcuts.
Splitting tabs into half screen with option+click has been really nice, even though I use magnet and could do the same, it just takes a lot longer.
Pinning the 8 most used websites for my work / workflow is nice, and keeping them separate from personal stuff is nice too.
Clearing all my tabs with one click is nice.
Google Meet pop up window was a nice surprise.
I guess a lot of littles, and a solid enough foundation of just being a normal browser, adds up to a nice experience. + google got a little too excited with ad tracking in the latest chrome which pushed me to switch.
There are a lot of goodies like built-in notes, easels (a canvas to save stuff), and boosts (css monkeypatching), as well as UI sugar like the command bar (access all commands via cmd+T) but the killer feature for me is the ease of making profiles (sandboxed cache and cookies) and spaces (the left sidebar holding pinned and ephemeral tabs) work together.
On my work machine, for example, I have a "space" that's tied to my personal gmail account, so I can check that email if I need to, without worrying about being logged in or out of my work email (which is also a google account). Switching between spaces is just a swipe.
I also spin up a space when I'm working on something, so those proliferating research tabs don't interfere with other steady work, which stay in their own spaces. Then I just delete the space when I'm done.
I've used Arc as my main browser for a few months, and loved the Spaces feature that lets you sandbox cache and cookies. Very similar to Firefox Multi-Account Containers, but the UI is better because you can swipe to the next Space and only see the relevant tabs open.
I've switched back to Firefox for a few reasons:
1) Arc is based on Chromium, and I don't want to support Chrome
2) I just couldn't get used to the layout with the tabs on the side instead of the top. It makes the the window narrower, and I found that this worsened my experience on many websites. Yes, you can hide the sidebar, but it's a pain in the ass to always toggle it.
3) I don't think they'll be around in a few years. They're heavily VC-backed, and while they say that they want to monetize via paid team features, I don't see how they could generate enough money to justify VC-style growth. Most likely they will be sold and integrated/closed, or they will shut down.
4) They're "quirky" CEO that does all these videos and weird product updates really irks me in the wrong way. I realize that this is subjective and others might like it, but still.
As a counterpoint from someone who's been daily driving Arc since this summer:
1) Most sites are designed for Chrome these days, and our customers also use Chrome or Edge. I get not wanting to support Google itself, but Chromium has become the de-facto standard at this point, and Firefox is actively declining with 6% desktop and 3% overall share.
2) This is a preference thing for sure, I'm a fan of vertical tabs and was previously a Vivaldi user. I really like the design of pinned tabs too, it makes me actually use them. This is a workflow thing and I'd just avoid Arc if you don't like vertical tabs.
3) Who knows, Vivaldi and Brave manage to stick around. The Google integration money doesn't seem to be bad. They also don't need their engineering team to encompass developing the rendering engine, they can focus on the UI.
> I get not wanting to support Google itself, but Chromium has become the de-facto standard at this point, and Firefox is actively declining with 6% desktop and 3% overall share.
That's exactly the reason why I want to support alternative engines like Firefox's.
> They're heavily VC-backed, and while they say that they want to monetize via paid team features
This alone is a huge reason not to use it. After the OS/kernel, the browser is probably the most important and security-sentitive program on your computer. Being not free software should be an automatic nonstarter. I don't know why the W3C doesn't fund development of Servo or similar as a foss project given how absolutely essential maintaining a neutral browser (/engine) is for the health of the web.
I also think the quirks/cheeky stuff is a little too much. But I will say I have no desire to go back to any other browser. The side bar, pinning, spaces, favorites have revolutionized the way I use the internet. I think this is the most well thought out product I've seen in years, I would be very sad to not see them survive.
I'm not sure I understand concerns about not wanting to support anything based on Chromium.
Chromium is 100% open-source, and there are Chromium committers from Microsoft, Opera, Samsung, Igalia, Electron, and dozens of other companies, plus some who are affiliated.
I understand not wanting to use Google Chrome, but why throw out the whole open-source browser engine?
If the argument is that you don't want Google to benefit, then are you going to similarly boycott any other open-source technology that Google created or uses? Are you going to boycott the Linux kernel because Google heavily uses it? Are you going to boycott Kubernetes, Flutter, and Go as well? Are you going to boycott every Electron app too?
Gonna guess you weren't online in the early 2000s when we fought like hell to disrupt Microsoft Trident's 95% browser monopoly that it was using to stall the web so .Net and other MS Windows platforms could hopefully catch up and not be disrupted. We're there again with Chromium, another Trident.
True, Chromium is open source. But as others have stated: Google is the main driver and benfactor of Chromium, and we need more diversity in the browser engine game.
The examples you mentioned don't suffer from the same quasi-monopoly structure in the market.
I do all my development with Arc. The profiles make it seamless to switch between staging and production accounts, and the dev tools are the same as Chrome because it's Chromium based.
I am just a software engineer that wants to organize my tabs (documentation, repositories, pull requests, on call incidents) in a way that my brain can comprehend. I don't see how that makes me "management class"
How, as a consumer, am I supposed to justify paying $10+ /mo for different interfaces to the same AI backend? Some of this stuff is cool, but why would anyone pay for a Chat GPT shortcut directly within Arc?
Don't get me wrong, I understand these features cost Arc (or whoever) money and they can't exactly give it away for free, but why would I pay for this + ChatGPT Plus + Poe + every other app that has a small AI assistant? It's just not sustainable.
There's a few local apps that let me use an Open AI key. I'd much rather pay on demand (and directly to the source, or even better, use a local LLM) and then purchase an app one-time or have a lower recurring fee than to be paying some incremental amount for AI features that I have access to in a million different interfaces.
[1] Yes, this is free now, but unless Arc can extract some value out of you down the road, it's not cost viable for them to offer for users for free. The most user friendly way to do this would be a simple subscription.
I downloaded Arc. It wanted me to make an account. I immediately uninstalled.
No. Stop with this dumb crap please. I'd gladly buy your software if it's good enough.
Want to see it done correctly? Try Pushover. This is the smoothest, consumer friendly licensing process in the world and I imagine their conversion rate is extraordinarily high.
It says so much about the current environment when at the beginning he notes that their team has been let down by the AI hype, but that they resolved to be optimistic about it and push forward anyway.
Skepticism and optimism are importantly quite orthogonal states! So, in opposing them here, we get a little window into the SV/VC/tech-guy mind: to question or reject the idea that there is an overriding and necessary teleological direction of technology is no different from questioning or rejecting technology itself; there is only one direction, and if you disagree, well you are just luddite; there will always be new features to release and new tech to discover, and in that, there will always be profit. In this world, optimism is the opposite of skepticism, because any kind of grand skepticism simply can't be sustained lest the whole thing loses balance.
Like imagine if SVB happened and there wasn't the LLM hype boom right after that. Can we even imagine that? I don't think so... Just as the sun rises every morning, at every business quarter some new thing rises to positively change the world.
Great browser for development. The Spaces functionality, the pinned tabs, and apps. It's clearly made for someone who wanted this stuff for themselves and it shows. My only problems with it are:
- Downloads always take two clicks in the bar for me to get to them (I don't know how to use the first click)
- Bitwarden isn't pinned anywhere so to log in I need to click "Extensions > Bitwarden". The top right tiny 3 dots to pop it up is way harder than using the Extensions bar.
I just used Max and it's actually quite good for what I want. Some examples for HN threads:
I used a standard prompt: Is this comment thread worth reading? I don't like relitigation, pointless rage, ragebait, or blind requests for a source. Make sure it's worth the length.
> This comment thread touches on some ongoing debates around COVID vaccines and public health policies. While some comments express skepticism of prevailing views, most discussants remain respectful and seek to have a thoughtful exchange of perspectives, even if they disagree. There is debate worth considering if you're interested in the issues, but also comments that seem aimed more at provocation than constructive discussion. Overall it does not seem like a thread dominated by pointless rage or blind requests for sources. Some of the longer sub-threads could provide interesting fact-checking of different viewpoints. But there may be more constructive uses of your time if you wish to avoid controversy.
On this page:
> Based on the content provided, this comment thread on the Hacker News story about Arc browser's built-in AI features seems worth reading. While there are a few off-topic comments, most comments provide constructive feedback and discussion about Arc browser and its features from users who have tried it. In particular, comments from users <b>sisk</b>, <b>rswerve</b>, <b>antidnan</b>, and <b>shafyy</b> provide detailed explanations of their experiences using Arc browser and opinions on both its benefits and drawbacks. The discussion could help someone decide if they want to try Arc browser or provide feedback to its developers.
> Bitwarden isn't pinned anywhere so to log in I need to click "Extensions > Bitwarden"
I also open Bitwarden often, so I just use the keyboard shortcut shift+cmd+b, not sure if that's the default, you can change it here arc://extensions/shortcuts
Another method I use for other extensions is cmd+t, then type the first letters of the extension to open it.
It was probably a live stream. It starts early so that people can join in, then the content begins at the scheduled time. What you're watching is the recording of the full stream.
"Arc Max uses OpenAI’s API Platform and Anthropic’s Claude for commercial applications. These features are off by default in the desktop app and not available in the mobile app at this time."
which include in some cases: the whole content of website, URL, etc...
Wow, I would've thought these were run on a local model. This sounds like it could get expensive for them quickly, and if I understand correctly these features are available for free? I guess it's only a matter of time until they start charging for them.
EDIT: Per a comment in another thread, these features are only free for 90 days it seems.
Yikes, I immediately thought of exactly the same thing, sending all that data to third parties? no thank you my browser should be my safe space not leaking things itself
I kicked off Firefox's local translation project last year with my engineering partner Andre (who led Mozilla's efforts with Bergamot and the folks in Europe) and those models are about 30MB per language pair (English is a pivot language so to get from, say French to Spanish, you need two models, the FR/EN and SP/EN) and that works out OK for folks on good connections who rarely encounter a new language and can benefit from the already downloaded models.
I'm not so sure how well it'd work for users if the model was 10X or 100X that size. What do you all think?
I almost threw up watching the terribly stated video. I've been trying to get Arc to have a CMD+SHIFT+C (devtools) shortcut to work. I reported this bug to them several times.
I can see them going bankrupt when the vc money runs out.
When I first heard about it I knew it was going to be some sort of "public" AI, which makes it a no-go for me for work stuff.
I do daily drive it for work, though, and have found the tab management to be really great. I know I can emulate some of the features with other add-ons in Firefox, but it's more elegant in Arc.
Glad to see a company thinking somewhat fresh in this space.
This whole video and everything is clearly a joke right? Video is made like a parody of computer ads. But I don't see a single comment here about that and looks like everyone is taking this seriously.
Is BCNY a real channel? Have I missed something? Am I out of loop?
You're not missing anything, this is the official YouTube channel for their company. The Browser Company of New York (BCNY) generally take a more lighthearted and informal style of communication - just part of their brand identity. The video is made in the style of a shopping-channel commercial and news broadcast, but that doesn't really affect the features, which is what people are discussing.
My new model when I encounter BS on a grand scale is to smile and not clarify anything. I just wait all VC funded crap designed without real UX research to die. It is that simple for me:)
54 comments
[ 4.1 ms ] story [ 203 ms ] threadWill be available for free for at least 90 days. Video did not mention what would happen after that time—they said they'll listen to feedback.
Features:
Ask on Page - Hold down Command + F on any page to ask a question and let Max answer it for you in seconds.
5-Second Previews - Press Shift and hover over any link to generate a summary of the webpage, without a single click.
Tidy Tab Titles - Have your tabs automatically renamed with tidier, shorter titles when you Pin them.
Tidy Downloads - Keep your many files more organized with smartly renamed downloads - and make them a little easier to find later.
ChatGPT in the Command Bar - Press cmd+alt+G, start typing, and get answers in fewer clicks.
(This summary generated by me, a real human person, NOT an LLM. Yet.)
5-second previews don't give me much beyond the page title and maybe a subheading.
Ask on page told me it encountered an error 3 out of the 4 times I tried it, and the one time it worked it told me the article was long, so it only read 32% (I can do that! that's why I'm asking you!). But it did answer the question I asked (then errored on the follow-up).
Splitting tabs into half screen with option+click has been really nice, even though I use magnet and could do the same, it just takes a lot longer.
Pinning the 8 most used websites for my work / workflow is nice, and keeping them separate from personal stuff is nice too.
Clearing all my tabs with one click is nice.
Google Meet pop up window was a nice surprise.
I guess a lot of littles, and a solid enough foundation of just being a normal browser, adds up to a nice experience. + google got a little too excited with ad tracking in the latest chrome which pushed me to switch.
On my work machine, for example, I have a "space" that's tied to my personal gmail account, so I can check that email if I need to, without worrying about being logged in or out of my work email (which is also a google account). Switching between spaces is just a swipe.
I also spin up a space when I'm working on something, so those proliferating research tabs don't interfere with other steady work, which stay in their own spaces. Then I just delete the space when I'm done.
I've switched back to Firefox for a few reasons:
1) Arc is based on Chromium, and I don't want to support Chrome
2) I just couldn't get used to the layout with the tabs on the side instead of the top. It makes the the window narrower, and I found that this worsened my experience on many websites. Yes, you can hide the sidebar, but it's a pain in the ass to always toggle it.
3) I don't think they'll be around in a few years. They're heavily VC-backed, and while they say that they want to monetize via paid team features, I don't see how they could generate enough money to justify VC-style growth. Most likely they will be sold and integrated/closed, or they will shut down.
4) They're "quirky" CEO that does all these videos and weird product updates really irks me in the wrong way. I realize that this is subjective and others might like it, but still.
1) Most sites are designed for Chrome these days, and our customers also use Chrome or Edge. I get not wanting to support Google itself, but Chromium has become the de-facto standard at this point, and Firefox is actively declining with 6% desktop and 3% overall share.
2) This is a preference thing for sure, I'm a fan of vertical tabs and was previously a Vivaldi user. I really like the design of pinned tabs too, it makes me actually use them. This is a workflow thing and I'd just avoid Arc if you don't like vertical tabs.
3) Who knows, Vivaldi and Brave manage to stick around. The Google integration money doesn't seem to be bad. They also don't need their engineering team to encompass developing the rendering engine, they can focus on the UI.
It's been dying for at least a decade, and I'll put up my entire NFT stash and bet you it will be here long after Arc has been forgotten.
Remember RockMelt? Yeah, nobody else does, either.
That's exactly the reason why I want to support alternative engines like Firefox's.
This alone is a huge reason not to use it. After the OS/kernel, the browser is probably the most important and security-sentitive program on your computer. Being not free software should be an automatic nonstarter. I don't know why the W3C doesn't fund development of Servo or similar as a foss project given how absolutely essential maintaining a neutral browser (/engine) is for the health of the web.
Chromium is 100% open-source, and there are Chromium committers from Microsoft, Opera, Samsung, Igalia, Electron, and dozens of other companies, plus some who are affiliated.
I understand not wanting to use Google Chrome, but why throw out the whole open-source browser engine?
If the argument is that you don't want Google to benefit, then are you going to similarly boycott any other open-source technology that Google created or uses? Are you going to boycott the Linux kernel because Google heavily uses it? Are you going to boycott Kubernetes, Flutter, and Go as well? Are you going to boycott every Electron app too?
It's not good for the web if one organisation can dictate what works and what doesn't.
If it wasn't for Safari's popularity, Chromium based browsers would consist about 90-95% of all browser traffic.
The examples you mentioned don't suffer from the same quasi-monopoly structure in the market.
How, as a consumer, am I supposed to justify paying $10+ /mo for different interfaces to the same AI backend? Some of this stuff is cool, but why would anyone pay for a Chat GPT shortcut directly within Arc?
Don't get me wrong, I understand these features cost Arc (or whoever) money and they can't exactly give it away for free, but why would I pay for this + ChatGPT Plus + Poe + every other app that has a small AI assistant? It's just not sustainable.
There's a few local apps that let me use an Open AI key. I'd much rather pay on demand (and directly to the source, or even better, use a local LLM) and then purchase an app one-time or have a lower recurring fee than to be paying some incremental amount for AI features that I have access to in a million different interfaces.
[1] Yes, this is free now, but unless Arc can extract some value out of you down the road, it's not cost viable for them to offer for users for free. The most user friendly way to do this would be a simple subscription.
No. Stop with this dumb crap please. I'd gladly buy your software if it's good enough.
Want to see it done correctly? Try Pushover. This is the smoothest, consumer friendly licensing process in the world and I imagine their conversion rate is extraordinarily high.
Skepticism and optimism are importantly quite orthogonal states! So, in opposing them here, we get a little window into the SV/VC/tech-guy mind: to question or reject the idea that there is an overriding and necessary teleological direction of technology is no different from questioning or rejecting technology itself; there is only one direction, and if you disagree, well you are just luddite; there will always be new features to release and new tech to discover, and in that, there will always be profit. In this world, optimism is the opposite of skepticism, because any kind of grand skepticism simply can't be sustained lest the whole thing loses balance.
Like imagine if SVB happened and there wasn't the LLM hype boom right after that. Can we even imagine that? I don't think so... Just as the sun rises every morning, at every business quarter some new thing rises to positively change the world.
- Downloads always take two clicks in the bar for me to get to them (I don't know how to use the first click)
- Bitwarden isn't pinned anywhere so to log in I need to click "Extensions > Bitwarden". The top right tiny 3 dots to pop it up is way harder than using the Extensions bar.
I just used Max and it's actually quite good for what I want. Some examples for HN threads:
This one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37736217
I used a standard prompt: Is this comment thread worth reading? I don't like relitigation, pointless rage, ragebait, or blind requests for a source. Make sure it's worth the length.
> This comment thread touches on some ongoing debates around COVID vaccines and public health policies. While some comments express skepticism of prevailing views, most discussants remain respectful and seek to have a thoughtful exchange of perspectives, even if they disagree. There is debate worth considering if you're interested in the issues, but also comments that seem aimed more at provocation than constructive discussion. Overall it does not seem like a thread dominated by pointless rage or blind requests for sources. Some of the longer sub-threads could provide interesting fact-checking of different viewpoints. But there may be more constructive uses of your time if you wish to avoid controversy.
On this page:
> Based on the content provided, this comment thread on the Hacker News story about Arc browser's built-in AI features seems worth reading. While there are a few off-topic comments, most comments provide constructive feedback and discussion about Arc browser and its features from users who have tried it. In particular, comments from users <b>sisk</b>, <b>rswerve</b>, <b>antidnan</b>, and <b>shafyy</b> provide detailed explanations of their experiences using Arc browser and opinions on both its benefits and drawbacks. The discussion could help someone decide if they want to try Arc browser or provide feedback to its developers.
I also open Bitwarden often, so I just use the keyboard shortcut shift+cmd+b, not sure if that's the default, you can change it here arc://extensions/shortcuts
Another method I use for other extensions is cmd+t, then type the first letters of the extension to open it.
Ah great, it'll probably anticipate I am not installing a data theft tool anytime soon.
What a weird format for a (release?) video.
"Arc Max uses OpenAI’s API Platform and Anthropic’s Claude for commercial applications. These features are off by default in the desktop app and not available in the mobile app at this time."
which include in some cases: the whole content of website, URL, etc...
https://arc.net/privacy
NO THANKS!
CALLING OUT TO INTEGRATE THOSE FEATURES WITH LLAMA2.0 LOCALLY WITHIN FOSS CHROMINUM/ FireFOX
EDIT: Per a comment in another thread, these features are only free for 90 days it seems.
I'm not so sure how well it'd work for users if the model was 10X or 100X that size. What do you all think?
I can see them going bankrupt when the vc money runs out.
I do daily drive it for work, though, and have found the tab management to be really great. I know I can emulate some of the features with other add-ons in Firefox, but it's more elegant in Arc.
Glad to see a company thinking somewhat fresh in this space.
Is BCNY a real channel? Have I missed something? Am I out of loop?
I feel like Arc gives me OCD about organising my spaces and folders etc. I'm happier to just close chrome when I get to like 15 tabs and start again.