I don't know what to think of that other than it's sort of cool that we can do that with relatively inexpensive consumer electronics as a _secondary_ function.
Even the most sophisticated purpose made medical research tools can't do this in a way that you are imagining. If somehow Apple accomplished mind reading devices in their spare time I'd be so amazed that I'd actually not even care how invasive it is. At least for awhile.
Maybe not today, but with better sensors and neural networks I'd say anything is possible.
That's not what's bothering me most in the long run though. Because there's no way in hell they'll be able to resist the temptation to manipulate our brains directly if they ever develop the capability.
Technology is neither good nor bad, but it enables better and worse with every iteration.
I studied biomedical engineering, it's really difficult to get anything useful out of a human brain non-invasively even if you are Apple. Neural networks are not magic, they can't do much with such low SNR.
LLMs are more an exanoke of punctuated that smooth, even exponential, when looked at vs. 10 years ago, but there’s a difference between no one would expect b/c we don’t know how, and there being a clear articulable reason why not.
patents don't mean something is remotely close to existing. A lot of patents are purely speculative, to either fish for future licensing revenues or to protect the ability to enter a market in the future
It's tangential to this but the integration of biofeedback with headphones reminded me something I've dreamed of having off and on for years. I would really love a music player that uses some kind of biological sensing data to help inform what it plays. When I'm exercising I'd love for my phone to be able to figure out my intensity through some metrics (heart rate, respiration, skin temperature, accelerometers) and select faster and/or more intense music as well as adjust the volume based on that information.
In reply to the iamnotdang comment below, which I don't seem to be able to comment on directly: There is sarcasm here, which is perhaps what you're referring to. But I'd argue here it's a form of satire which is also (slightly) informative. The reader doesn't have to work very hard to realise the argument being made that this is another greasing of the slippery slope we're on to Black Mirror style immersive surveillance capitalism.
Perhaps we should make that point explicitly: It's a concern that US based mega corps will have access to data about mental states at population scale, and that would provide significant power to them for both good and potential ill.
Last night while I was choosing something to fall asleep to, Spotify suggested Nirvana’s Nevermind.
Just getting as advanced as “this human normally puts chilled music on at this time of day, which is also the time many people go to sleep in this time zone” would be a start.
I am not sure you need any technology here. You pretty much always have the same cycling and running cadence; so pick a song that's 180bpm (not sure if that's right for running), and there you go. How much effort you exert depends on how long your strides are or what gear you're in, but if you're doing a big climb or something the beat of the music can remind you to keep your cadence at the optimal rate. (That said, do cyclists wear headphones? I don't. It's against the law here, and in general the sound-based situational awareness seems like something you don't want to give up. Make your computer beep at you if your cadence is out of range.)
> ".That said, do cyclists wear headphones? I don't. It's against the law here, and in general the sound-based situational awareness seems like something you don't want to give up."
That's where bone conduction headphones such as Aeropex by Aftershokz come in: https://youtu.be/IACve6PlC8o?t=271 (That's a video link because it's to a guy using them on a bike, and saying they don't block situational awareness).
Curious, I go the other way - I listen to pump-up music when I want to get pumped up, not after. Similarly, I put on sleepy music to put me to sleep. Though if my devices could heart my intentions, that would be magical.
I’ve noticed this kind of trend with technology. Algorithms don’t intuit where you want to go, only where you are. Leads to a feedback loop where you just become more stuck in your current patterns.
This would be useful though, as I listen to high BPM when running, then run to the beat, but if my heartrate starts approaching some max then it would be nice for it to pick songs that have a progressively lower bpm to get me to adjust my stride while running.
Is this even remotely feasible though, technologically?
I briefly tried using the Muse headband, a cheap (~$200) brain EEG device that connects to your phone via Bluetooth, and it was pretty much a disaster. It had five metal contacts across the forehead, but could never keep all five correctly working, so it was constantly showing errors in the app about insufficient data.
Given that we still haven't figured out how to even get regular consumer metal contact EEG sensors working reliably, I'm perplexed at how earbuds could ever pick up brain waves in an accurate fashion.
For slowly trending electrical signals like you’d use for meditation training or sleep detection, and for other biosignals like in-ear temperature, yeah, it’s mostly just a matter of making things fit and have power without compromising the core features of the product.
Muse is way more ambitious in what they’re trying to do and also have way less control over manufacturing detail and efficiency. It’s a totally different thing.
I am also surprised how challenging it often is to use both the original muse, and the muse S.
We are making an EEG headband for increasing the efficiency of deep sleep, and though we are still improving on our data reliability, using the right materials and structure, it can be much more reliable than Muse.
Earphone EEG already exists, they don't use "metal contacts", and neither do we. There are conductive silicones, and conductive fabrics which better conform to the skin and provide good signal quality and comfort.
However, they still don't work well with movement. This is the challenge I see with in-ear.
A neuroscientist I know just bought a pair of Emotiv MN8 (https://www.emotiv.com/mn8-eeg-headset-with-contour-app/) earbuds, and said they wanted to try it while running. I have serious doubts that will work, as all EGG is susceptible to movement noise.
But in ear silicone conductive tips while meditating, I think that will be fine. LGs I think are out this year, Emotiv already are, there are a few others as well.
The other alternative is fNIRS, which is more similar to an ECG monitor in your smartwatch. It is measuring bloodflow through the brain, but there is a delay between bloodflow and brain activity, so it was a non-starter for us as we are responding to your brain activity in real-time, but I think for meditation or similar uses it would be fine, and maybe even preferred.
Magnetic measurements are both physically possible and don't have muscle interference. For example https://arxiv.org/abs/2001.03534 is a magnetic field sensor that measures brain activity and runs off a USB port.
It's probably a couple decades away, but at least it's feasible.
Biofeedback for meditation shouldn't be that difficult. I guess their ambition with this idea is around that level.
I have used a single electrode Muse headband so I guess yours is more advanced, but I can believe that AirPods would have better and more reliable skin connection than the device I have used.
This is about enabling pretty low key but useful biofeedback things like meditation training and maybe ear temperature for health tracking. The signals that would be available to AirPods are very limited and already pretty well understood. Apple’s achievement (as often) would really be in their industrial technique for producing accurate, efficient, affordable sensors that fit within their exacting product design.
It’s not going to read your mind your zap current across your brain. :)
doesn't really need to do any of that to have negative effects. Not only are there obvious privacy issues, the 24/7 health monitoring craze of people who are healthy and don't require such interventions is just a waste of money and potentially worry. Yet another avenue to sell people 'health services' that in reality have no measurable impact.
My wife's a physician. She now routinely has to deal with healthy young people who come into her clinic with anxiety because of spurious smart watch alerts concerning their sleep or heart rhythm, despite the fact that they undergo regular checkups to begin with and such monitoring isn't indicated.
Health isn’t a binary thing, but as a spectrum, I can say that I’m healthier now than I was 10 years ago because I’ve been able to make data-informed insights into my own idiosyncratic body.
Medical research tells you about population patterns and doctors treat illness. Neither of those play the same role as having lots of personal health data to form and test hypotheses over.
Privacy may be a concern, but for now, I’m personally pretty comfortable with Apple’s commitment to privacy as a differentiating factor against their competitors. That won’t last forever, but it’s good for now.
I'm so ready for any and all progress on health monitoring. Use cases like early detection and monitoring of strokes, seizures, Parkinson's, dementia, and so forth.
Per Rosalind Picard, we're just at the very beginning of affective computing.
Out of curiosity, I tried using some decibel meter type apps to detect my breathing (breath sounds). Just to see if it's even possible.
I didn't get very far. I haven't had the gumption to investigate further. Use an actual mic and tape recorder, because maybe the iPhone is doing active noise cancelation or something. If there's actually some signal (sound), maybe there's also a way to get the raw data from the iPhone mic.
Asked another way, I'm not smart enough to figure out if an iPhone's stock mics are sensitive enough to pick up 10 decibels (breath sounds). My google-fu is weak.
> I desperately want active breath monitoring. Like measuring breaths per minute.
Not sure about the state of Apple Watchen but my Garmin watch (a several year old Fenix) monitors breaths per minute, history, and has breath exercises. Seems this would be easily within reach of Apple so I’m not sure why they’re not doing it if Garmin is. Unless what Garmin considers accurate or reliable isn’t up to Apple standards. Shrug.
Thank you! I don't know how I missed the Garmin. (My google-fu is weaker than I had feared.)
TIL: Garmin also uses HRV to infer respiration, aka respiratory sinus arrhythmia. But it's good enough for all day. And skimming their forums suggests their users are content that it works as advertised.
I'm not a native speaker, but as far as I know a "boffin" is not derogatory, at least in British English. I liken it to "nerd" in US English.
From Wikipedia[^0]:
> Boffin is a British slang term for a scientist, engineer, or other person engaged in technical or scientific research and development. A "boffin" was viewed by some in the regular services as odd, quirky or peculiar, though quite bright and essential to helping in the war effort through having and developing the key ideas leading to transformative military capabilities.
There's an iPhone app called Lungy that monitors breathing for interactive exercises, but it requires holding the phone just right and breathing at the mic. Probably not good enough to monitor under less ideal conditions with the existing mic. Apple Watch and other smartwatches track breathing rate, but the ones I know of only give periodic estimates when conditions are right, not really real time monitoring.
Really skeptical of the potential EMG and EEG capabilities, feel like they would just be noise-filled approximations, but the other potential features of monitoring body temperature and hearing seem worthwhile.
I want an AI DJ to pick the right tunes when I'm running to fit my pace, where I am on the run (e.g., approaching a hill, near the finish), and my match heartrate. I hate having to do that manually. Sometimes you need to zone out for 10 miles, other times you need that kick at the right time to avoid the wall/bonk.
I wonder if something like this would be good for REM state tracking. I can really feel a difference when my alarm gets me up during REM vs normal sleep. I've tried smart watches, fitness bands, and even Withing's sleep tracking mat, but nothing has nailed the killer feature I want, which is a dynamic morning alarm that adjust to my REM cycle. I'd be willing to wear sleep earbuds if they had this feature!
I was considering buying the sleep tracking mat, and I'm sure it mentioned it had dynamic waking similar to what you mention - to be honest I looked at so many devices though. (Also would be useful for turning off un-needed devices around the house when I jump into bed!)
To minimize radiation exposure, the mat turns wifi broadcasting off when it senses you are in bed. So dynamic wakeup is off the table. I also find this setup annoying because there are times where I'm still in bed and trying to decide if I need more sleep, but it won't update until I physically get out of bed. It can do smart lighting control, but there is a delay when it has to connect to the wifi.
I would have preferred the wifi disabling being optional, or a bluetooth link to my phone, or even an ethernet port!
the general population, and surprisingly a lot of tech heads dont care about the implications of brain wave activity, linked to your identity - phoning home to a corporation of google's size?
we're one thought away for being thrown into jail for shower thoughts that go slightly the wrong side of "publicly acceptable".
i think ALL of this technology is incredibly cool and exciting, BUT - my excitement is hampered by the internets current panopticapitalism/surveillance economy. Asking for "government to step in" as i often hear is pretty funny, seeing as what Snowden has shown us...it is often they who are lobbying for increased and tighter surveillance....
> we're one thought away for being thrown into jail for shower thoughts that go slightly the wrong side of "publicly acceptable".
Not really. That’s like being laughed at for being naked at a nudist camp. If nobody has privacy, all of those little thoughts become public and the perception of what’s acceptable shifts
In a weird way privacy is a double edged sword and necessitates its own existence
I think, in general, we’d be a lot more sane as a society if we held back less from one another
except what we're talking about here is corporate bodies with algorhythms automating prejudice, and leveraging risk... a very different thing to sharing with one another isnt it?
>Not really. That’s like being laughed at for being naked at a nudist camp. If nobody has privacy, all of those little thoughts become public and the perception of what’s acceptable shifts
No, it just means that anyone can be destroyed if they offend the keeper of the data.
For years, I've dreamed of a gadget that would interrupt me, but only do so once my brain's activity levels have reached an adequate threshold of meditation, relaxation, or even contentment.
The gadget of my dreams would then disrupt those relatively unmonetizable states of mind, which I tend to drift into from time-to-time, and with a much more profitable and optimized state of alertness using a variety of well-developed innovations and software tricks such as haptics, electromagnetism, or sound, at a liminal or subliminal threshold.
It matters not as long as the job gets done in the end. As long as the conversion has taken place, and that the signal-to-conversion ratio is well within parameters.
I'll then rest easy, knowing that I'm helping others. I'm saving jobs. Saving lives. Saving shareholders. Priceless.
Innovations such as this bring me one step closer to my own self-actualization. God bless innovation.
I'm the opposite, I have a pair of "Jabra" ear buds, bluetooth, 4 years old. I absolutely love them, I wear them constantly. I never thought I'd be able to do all my house work while attending a boring work meeting, but here we are. I guess the wired ones would work too, but the freedom of no cables and active audio pass through ? Hard to beat really?
Never ever have signal issues, how common is this with the AirPods?
I agree, and I think Apple is best positioned to take that space. It’ll likely be through the slow rollout of health related sensors in wearables, and safety features like the crash detection and fall alerts, combined with on-device AI. Once it reaches a certain point and data backs it, they’ll probably tout that “Apple Watch is THE watch to own if you don’t want to die 3 years early”.
A lot of negative comments here but I could see some merits to this (supposing it’s in an open source context and the data doesn’t go anywhere)
For example, whenever you start to get stressed out, the thing will tell you to take a break. Little things like that. Instead of relying on your own level of mindfulness to get you there
I think that little things like this could definitely improve quality of life, something I’d pay for personally, although with the constraint that the data doesn’t go anywhere with zero exceptions
I've been using a garmin for a while and it looks like my HRV gets worse as my propensity for a headache / migraine increases. It would be interesting to see if there is any correlation with brain activity and the other bio information it gathers so I can perhaps create an early warning system - not sure what it will do though, perhaps I'll just start my anti-migraine ritual sooner and maybe abort more than currently.
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[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 195 ms ] thread"You may be surprised to learn this is a future that has already arrived."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfqD5aW0X5U
To the original poster: what of your own direct experience and knowledge has convinced you that this is an imminent threat?
Maybe not today, but with better sensors and neural networks I'd say anything is possible.
That's not what's bothering me most in the long run though. Because there's no way in hell they'll be able to resist the temptation to manipulate our brains directly if they ever develop the capability.
Technology is neither good nor bad, but it enables better and worse with every iteration.
I studied biomedical engineering, it's really difficult to get anything useful out of a human brain non-invasively even if you are Apple. Neural networks are not magic, they can't do much with such low SNR.
If Google, for example, had announced this, the median response would be closer to your take.
Perhaps we should make that point explicitly: It's a concern that US based mega corps will have access to data about mental states at population scale, and that would provide significant power to them for both good and potential ill.
https://www.theonion.com/new-google-phone-service-whispers-t...
Just getting as advanced as “this human normally puts chilled music on at this time of day, which is also the time many people go to sleep in this time zone” would be a start.
That's where bone conduction headphones such as Aeropex by Aftershokz come in: https://youtu.be/IACve6PlC8o?t=271 (That's a video link because it's to a guy using them on a bike, and saying they don't block situational awareness).
This would be useful though, as I listen to high BPM when running, then run to the beat, but if my heartrate starts approaching some max then it would be nice for it to pick songs that have a progressively lower bpm to get me to adjust my stride while running.
Call me superstitious but two electronic earpieces communicating through your brain with one another, don’t like the idea.
Oh and surprise we can actually scan your brain.
But your head is RF transparent, which means all RF anywhere near you is passing through it. That's fine, just don't stick it in a microwave.
I briefly tried using the Muse headband, a cheap (~$200) brain EEG device that connects to your phone via Bluetooth, and it was pretty much a disaster. It had five metal contacts across the forehead, but could never keep all five correctly working, so it was constantly showing errors in the app about insufficient data.
Given that we still haven't figured out how to even get regular consumer metal contact EEG sensors working reliably, I'm perplexed at how earbuds could ever pick up brain waves in an accurate fashion.
Muse is way more ambitious in what they’re trying to do and also have way less control over manufacturing detail and efficiency. It’s a totally different thing.
We are making an EEG headband for increasing the efficiency of deep sleep, and though we are still improving on our data reliability, using the right materials and structure, it can be much more reliable than Muse.
Earphone EEG already exists, they don't use "metal contacts", and neither do we. There are conductive silicones, and conductive fabrics which better conform to the skin and provide good signal quality and comfort.
However, they still don't work well with movement. This is the challenge I see with in-ear.
A neuroscientist I know just bought a pair of Emotiv MN8 (https://www.emotiv.com/mn8-eeg-headset-with-contour-app/) earbuds, and said they wanted to try it while running. I have serious doubts that will work, as all EGG is susceptible to movement noise.
But in ear silicone conductive tips while meditating, I think that will be fine. LGs I think are out this year, Emotiv already are, there are a few others as well.
The other alternative is fNIRS, which is more similar to an ECG monitor in your smartwatch. It is measuring bloodflow through the brain, but there is a delay between bloodflow and brain activity, so it was a non-starter for us as we are responding to your brain activity in real-time, but I think for meditation or similar uses it would be fine, and maybe even preferred.
It's probably a couple decades away, but at least it's feasible.
That seems far outside the realm of what should be patentable.
I have used a single electrode Muse headband so I guess yours is more advanced, but I can believe that AirPods would have better and more reliable skin connection than the device I have used.
It does still take too long to charge, and the first one I got leaked dye on my pillow.
I also bought another product https://getbia.com as the features sounded interesting, but as they haven't shipped yet, can't say if it works.
This is about enabling pretty low key but useful biofeedback things like meditation training and maybe ear temperature for health tracking. The signals that would be available to AirPods are very limited and already pretty well understood. Apple’s achievement (as often) would really be in their industrial technique for producing accurate, efficient, affordable sensors that fit within their exacting product design.
It’s not going to read your mind your zap current across your brain. :)
My wife's a physician. She now routinely has to deal with healthy young people who come into her clinic with anxiety because of spurious smart watch alerts concerning their sleep or heart rhythm, despite the fact that they undergo regular checkups to begin with and such monitoring isn't indicated.
No one has tried to sell me any health services.
I feel far more confident in the security of their Health ecosystem than I do any individual app developer.
This is FUD.
For some stuff, I'd otherwise be completely oblivious. Self-reporting is notoriously unreliable. Which I've now experienced first hand.
Health isn’t a binary thing, but as a spectrum, I can say that I’m healthier now than I was 10 years ago because I’ve been able to make data-informed insights into my own idiosyncratic body.
Medical research tells you about population patterns and doctors treat illness. Neither of those play the same role as having lots of personal health data to form and test hypotheses over.
Privacy may be a concern, but for now, I’m personally pretty comfortable with Apple’s commitment to privacy as a differentiating factor against their competitors. That won’t last forever, but it’s good for now.
Per Rosalind Picard, we're just at the very beginning of affective computing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affective_computing
"Yes please" to each and every single thing Picard and others are working on.
https://www.affectiva.com/what/products/
https://imotions.com/products/imotions-lab/modules/fea-facia...
I desperately want active breath monitoring. Like measuring breaths per minute. Like nudging me when I'm holding my breath.
These features would greatly help me with managing chronic pain.
Also, the "pulmonauts" are doing a bunch of cool new stuff. Active breath monitoring would be a boon.
"Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art Hardcover" by James Nestor [2020-05-26] https://www.amazon.com/Breath-New-Science-Lost-Art/dp/073521...
--
Out of curiosity, I tried using some decibel meter type apps to detect my breathing (breath sounds). Just to see if it's even possible.
I didn't get very far. I haven't had the gumption to investigate further. Use an actual mic and tape recorder, because maybe the iPhone is doing active noise cancelation or something. If there's actually some signal (sound), maybe there's also a way to get the raw data from the iPhone mic.
Asked another way, I'm not smart enough to figure out if an iPhone's stock mics are sensitive enough to pick up 10 decibels (breath sounds). My google-fu is weak.
Not sure about the state of Apple Watchen but my Garmin watch (a several year old Fenix) monitors breaths per minute, history, and has breath exercises. Seems this would be easily within reach of Apple so I’m not sure why they’re not doing it if Garmin is. Unless what Garmin considers accurate or reliable isn’t up to Apple standards. Shrug.
TIL: Garmin also uses HRV to infer respiration, aka respiratory sinus arrhythmia. But it's good enough for all day. And skimming their forums suggests their users are content that it works as advertised.
https://www.garmin.com/en-GB/garmin-technology/health-scienc...
https://www.garmin.com/en-SG/blog/critical-relationship-betw...
I desperately want active breath monitoring
I don't think it's a great idea to call people boffins and then ask them to do something for you.
From Wikipedia[^0]:
> Boffin is a British slang term for a scientist, engineer, or other person engaged in technical or scientific research and development. A "boffin" was viewed by some in the regular services as odd, quirky or peculiar, though quite bright and essential to helping in the war effort through having and developing the key ideas leading to transformative military capabilities.
[^0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boffin
Begin by focusing on your breath whenever you leave a room.
I would have preferred the wifi disabling being optional, or a bluetooth link to my phone, or even an ethernet port!
we're one thought away for being thrown into jail for shower thoughts that go slightly the wrong side of "publicly acceptable".
i think ALL of this technology is incredibly cool and exciting, BUT - my excitement is hampered by the internets current panopticapitalism/surveillance economy. Asking for "government to step in" as i often hear is pretty funny, seeing as what Snowden has shown us...it is often they who are lobbying for increased and tighter surveillance....
/sad.
Not really. That’s like being laughed at for being naked at a nudist camp. If nobody has privacy, all of those little thoughts become public and the perception of what’s acceptable shifts
In a weird way privacy is a double edged sword and necessitates its own existence
I think, in general, we’d be a lot more sane as a society if we held back less from one another
No, it just means that anyone can be destroyed if they offend the keeper of the data.
The gadget of my dreams would then disrupt those relatively unmonetizable states of mind, which I tend to drift into from time-to-time, and with a much more profitable and optimized state of alertness using a variety of well-developed innovations and software tricks such as haptics, electromagnetism, or sound, at a liminal or subliminal threshold.
It matters not as long as the job gets done in the end. As long as the conversion has taken place, and that the signal-to-conversion ratio is well within parameters.
I'll then rest easy, knowing that I'm helping others. I'm saving jobs. Saving lives. Saving shareholders. Priceless.
Innovations such as this bring me one step closer to my own self-actualization. God bless innovation.
Never ever have signal issues, how common is this with the AirPods?
But if there is another sector that could sit adjacent to iPhone, or potentially exceeds it in terms revenue. It would be personal health.
For example, whenever you start to get stressed out, the thing will tell you to take a break. Little things like that. Instead of relying on your own level of mindfulness to get you there
I think that little things like this could definitely improve quality of life, something I’d pay for personally, although with the constraint that the data doesn’t go anywhere with zero exceptions
But instead it's Apple.
They could really just stick in a "time travel" module into the AirPod patent and then just wait for somebody else to invent it.