Thank you for thinking more deeply about this than I did!
But I do not see a problem in your first example, only true is the true true (according to my browser and the linked definition on https://www.json.org)
I don't get your other examples, can you explain? I assumed that 1.20.4 is not a valid SEN entry, because it starts with a digit but is not a number.
I'm not following:
`
{
array: [string1 string2 "true" true True TRUE yes y]
}
`
Doesn't look like a valid SEN or JSON. The `y` `yes`, `True`, TRUE` aren't valid keywords/variables/consts and `string1` and `string2` look like variable references which aren't something SEN or JSON support. The closest valid thing I can imagine is:
Am I missing something about the definition of “tokenStart”? It can be ‘letter’ or three other characters: but all those other characters (and more) are already in the definition of ‘letter’?
See the comment upthread about S-expressions, but .. given that this doesn't have a marker for "atom" which it badly needs, isn't it strictly worse than S-expressions.
> Note that while JSON Pointer (RFC 6901) is already standardised, it is
designed to provide a reference to a single, specific part of a JSON
document, whereas JSONPath provides the ability to query a document
and potentially return multiple values.
With respect for the pain everyone has suffered through due to XML... at this point I prefer XML with a good schema to JSON any day, even if it's more verbose and more awkward to hand-edit. It's just so much easier to validate it or generate code to handle it, and you get things like XSLT or XPath if you want them.
One reason would be massively reduced syntax overhead and better readability. I've seen plenty of XML files where XML syntax makes up more than 50% of the file's content, and trying to read the actual content is tedious. Now JSON isn't ideal either - technically you could get rid of all commas, colons, and the quotes around most keys - but I sure prefer `{"foo": "some \"stuff\""}` over something like `<foo><![CDATA[some <stuff>]]></foo>`
I agree, I would prefer JSON (or YAML) for example for configuration files. That is for stuff that humans actually read. I was thinking about using JSON/XML as a data exchange format between computers, because the context of this discussion has revolved about things like JSON/XML-Schema, JSON/XPath and SOAP/OpenAPI. There is a large trend to replace XML with JSON as data format for inter machine communication, and it is confusing to me.
XML is too unwieldy for human consumption. Editing it is error-prone, and those schema-directed editors are even worse, because everything requires clicking and clicking and clicking.
For machine-to-machine communication, it's very well suited, but most data is simple enough, and the XML libraries I've used tended to be --let's say-- over-engineered, while there are no hoops to jump through when you want to parse JSON.
And one thing I always disliked about XML was the CDATA section: it makes the message even harder to read, and it's not like you're going to use that binary data unparsed/unchecked.
XML just tried to formalize data transfer and description prematurely, which made it rigid and not even sufficiently powerful. I must say that XSLT and XPath were great additions, though.
Honestly for a lot of people they use JSON because thats what they have always used; XMLs heyday was like 15 years ago, you could be a very senior engineer now and have never touched XML.
I haven't looked at JSON Schema in detail so please correct me if I am wrong, but I had the impression that the JSON Schema specification is still largely unfinished and evolving. That means you need to know which version the tool you use supports. And when I was looking for JSON Schema validators for Java all I found were projects on GitHub, which often were abandoned and referred the user to another GitHub project which was also abandoned. There does not seem to be support from an established project or vendor.
Compare that to XML where we have a plethora of established tools (Woodstoxx, JAXB, etc.).
What I have trouble to understand, which everybody else just seems to accept as obvious, is why one would take on these problems? Is JSON Schema more powerful than XML Schema? Does the use of JSON have advantages over using XML? When we are talking about a client program calling a server API with JSON/XML, why do we care about the format of data exchanged? What advantages does JSON have in this case in contrast to XML (or for that matter a binary format like Protocol Buffers)? Isn't this the most boring part of the application, which you would want to just get out of the way and work? What are the advantages of JSON over XML that would lead me to deal with the problems of evolving specifications and unreliable tooling?
(And just to repeat, since everybody seems to have a different opinion about this than me, I must be missing something and really would like to learn what!)
All schema languages are a bit like that. You can almost always add another layer on top of the validation and screw down the validation a bit harder. The strictest validation will only be achievable using a turing complete language.
OpenAPI is probably used a bit more than json schema, but it's contextually limited to APIs (which, to be fair, is mostly what JSON is used for).
I probably phrased my question poorly. Why would I use a tool which is not or poorly maintained for a probably already outdated version of a specs, when I can use something else, that has been used for years by countless companies in productions? The advantages must be huge. And I don't know what they are.
OpenAPI is another example. There are threads on hacker news about generating code from OpenAPI specs. These always seem to say "oh, yes don't use tool X, use tool Y it does not have that problem, although it also doesn't support Z". The consensus seems to be to not generate code from an OpenAPI specification but to just use it as documentation, since all generators are more or less broken. Contrast that with for example JAXB (which is not an exact replacement I know), which has been battle tested for years.
I've used jsonschema and it was fine. I didn't think it was poorly maintained. By contrast with most XML libraries I've used had a myriad of broken edge cases and security vulnerabilities brought on by its overcomplication and the maintainers' inability to keep up.
>The consensus seems to be to not generate code from an OpenAPI specification but to just use it as documentation, since all generators are more or less broken.
OpenAPI still functions just fine as a means of documentation and validation.
I'm allergic to all forms of code generation, to be honest. If there is an equivalent of XML in this I imagine it's even more horrendous. I can just imagine chasing down compiler errors indirectly caused by an XML switch not set shudder.
>Contrast that with for example JAXB
JAXB looks like a bolt on to work around XML's deficiencies. There's no need to marshal JSON to special funky data structures in your code because lists and hashmaps are already built in. You can just use those. An equivalent doesn't need to exist.
For schema validation, I think XML has, what, 3 ways of doing it? DTDs? XMLSchema? And now JAXB does a bit of that on the side too? Does that sound like a healthy ecosystem to you? Because it sounds like absolute dogshit to me.
> I'm allergic to all forms of code generation, to be honest. If there is an equivalent of XML in this I imagine it's even more horrendous. I can just imagine chasing down compiler errors indirectly caused by an XML switch not set shudder.
> That means you need to know which version the tool you use supports
Honestly the same issue with versioning has been my primary issue with XML Schemas in the past. XSD 1.1 for example came out over a decade ago, but is still very badly supported in most tooling I tried out.
> When we are talking about a client program calling a server API with JSON/XML, why do we care about the format of data exchanged?
We shouldn't care much, beyond debuggability (can a developer easily see what's going on), (de)serialization speed, and bandwith use. JSON and protobuf tend to be a decent chunk smaller than XML, JSON is a bit easier to read, and Protobuf is faster to (de)serialize. This means they should generally be preferred.
In the case of a client program calling a server API I'd personally have the server do the required validation on a deserialized object, instead of doing so through a schema. This is generally easier to work on for all developers in my team, and gets around all the issues with tooling. The only real reason I use schemas is when I'm writing a file by hand, and want autocompletion and basic validations. In that case versioning and tooling issues are completely in my control.
As someone who greatly enjoyed the rigidity of SOAP/xml, which made proper architectural planning and careful deprecation mandatory, I wonder where we went so wrong. I feel like it's all connected to the impreciseness and typelessness of JavaScript. SOAP/xml to generate well defined client and server entry points in Java is how things should be done and SoapUI was a pleasure to use.
Honestly, I think a big reason is that Stack Overflow didn't exist at XMLs peak, so you had people generating XML by concatenation, to predictably disastrous results.
One of the first XSLT transforms I was ever given to maintain generated XML by the same method. <xsl:text><PRICE></xsl:text><xsl:value-of select="PRICE"/><xsl:text></PRICE></xsl:text> and so on.
> made proper architectural planning and careful deprecation mandatory
That's why it never caught on.
The ability of JSON/Javascript to tape together kinda-working solutions before and instead of any kind of specification works is hugely powerful, because it allows iterating on the requirements by having actual users use the app.
In my experience SOAP was near-universally used as an RPC encoding, where the schema was whatever types the exposed API defined and no-one gave the tiniest anything about the data representation on the wire. If you insisted on schema first SOAP, people looked at you as if you had fallen through a dimensional gate from an alternative history parallel universe full of Zeppelins and domesticated dinosaurs. JSON on
the other hand came riding on that REST wave, where the data models on the wire were given more consideration than just an outcome of the serializion process best never looked at. Some people even considered idempotency more than just a funny sequence of letters. No, I'm not surprised at all the SOAP mindset disappeared. (But SoapUI was really a pleasure to use, spent an ungodly amount of hours staring at that thing, never in anger)
I'd say there must exist a more ancient law, stating that a representation of s-expressions is reinvented whenever a need arises for a generic data format.
S-expressions are the most direct representation of a tree: (root node node ...). Trees are everywhere, they represent any nested structure; lists are logically a subset of trees.
XML is a tree. It has the weird "attribute" node types, a legacy of SGML text markup notation. JSON is a tree, obviously. So is protobuf, thrift, etc. They all could be serialized as s-expressions.
Now, a schema that destined a tree is also a tree. Hence XML Schema, JSONSchema, etc.
More, an abstract program that describes a transformation of a tree is also a tree; this products homoiconic languages, from XSLT to Lisps.
There is nothing special about XML; it's just a particular case of a generic law.
If you said nothing better became an industry standard I could see your point, but how exactly is XML better than s-expressions? Or, if you want something less generalized, KDL (which is roughly XML with 90% less syntax overhead)?
XML has a lot more defined structure than s-expressions. S-expressions make cute demos when people just take some chunk of data and blast out a conversion to drop into the conversation and hold it up as a standard, but it's not a fair comparison to take something actually defined and then splat out an undefined ad-hoc format in the spur of the moment. Of course the latter looks awesome by comparison; the example was literally structured to look awesome in this exact context.
When you read the s-expression alternatives proposed to XML with an eye to "How would I actually code against this? How would I actually convince multiple people to use the exact same standard as me? How do I support all the use cases of interest to me?" they completely fall apart. They're too simple. The very fact I have to use the plural for s-expression alternative since no two of them are every quite the same says quite a bit.
When you need that structure, XML is actually a very good choice; the error people made was using it when they didn't need that structure. Note how much of the complaint about using XML, even in this very conversation, is (quite correctly!) "what do I do with all these extra structural elements?" If you don't have a clear answer to that, don't use XML. If you do, don't jam it into s-exprs or JSON either, you end up with an even worse mess.
> How would I actually convince multiple people to use the exact same standard as me?
The same way you agree on an XML schema? I don't know if I quite understand what you want to say - as I see it both are tree structured formats which means they both can represent the same information, just that s-expressions are less verbose but XML has more existing tooling for defining & validating a structure. Though the latter is more an aspect of the ecosystem than the format itself.
But my point is, there's a lot of people who seem to think just waving the word "s-expression" at the problem is a solution. If you have to sit down and carefully define the exact standard, the value over XML gets mitigated a lot, because the standard is going to need a lot of stuff in it. It has to at least be as complicated as JSON, and JSON is often not quite enough. You can't just say "why don't we use s-expressions" as if that's an argument on its own.
But the reality is JSON ate that space anyhow. There's no room for something that's "like JSON, but not really" anymore.
> I'd say there must exist a more ancient law, stating that a representation of s-expressions is reinvented whenever a need arises for a generic data format.
That more ancient law would Greenspun's tenth rule, FYI—or a corollary to it, at least.
The law proposed here (as Baz's 11th law) was intended to be a humorous and obvious pastiche crafted with Greenspun's quip in mind, with the idea being that the reader would be in on the joke (being already familiar with it).
JSON can be parsed using SGML [1], by instructing SGML to interpret JSON tokens such as colons, quotation marks, and curly braces as markup. The underlying technique for custom lightweight markup is called SHORTREF and can be applied to markdown etc. as well.
So considering XML is subsetted from SGML, I guess the answer is closer to yes than thought.
Though probably it's worth citing the following quote from that paper:
> If the sweet spot for XML and SGML is marking up “prose documents”, the sweet spot for JSON is collections of atomic values.
The widespread use of markdown and other lightweight markup rather than rigid XML-style fully tagged markup for authoring tells otherwise though. And so does the continued use of HTML chock full of SGMLisms such as tag inference and attribute shortforms that weren't included in the XML subset/profile when XML (XHTML) was created to replace HTML.
So while XML isn't used as an authoring format on the web (nor as delivery format), it's still useful as canonical archival format I guess.
SGML is a meta-language unlike every other example in your reply, so the prevalence of such semi-structured languages (including SGML applications) doesn't justify SGML itself. Even HTML is not exactly an SGML application (except for HTML 4), and in my knowledge implementing HTML with a generic SGML implementation was rarely done. So the fact that SGML is a near superset of both JSON and XML doesn't mean much.
People say this, and yet XML's origins as a markup language make it baffling as a data format. No sane human being should choose a data format with such confusion between properties that no user knows whether to go with
and yet countless thousands decided to do just that, for reasons that are totally inexplicable to me.
Obviously as a markup language this is fine; as a data format it's bizarre, since the division between attribute vs child doesn't match most in-memory data structures.
Yeah, it's a weird attitude. XML died out because it was an overcomplicated design-by-committee mess. Quite apart from the fact that meant it wouldn't map cleanly to lists and hashmaps, necessitating a query language it also led to embarrassing debacles like the billion laughs vulnerability - problem in the very core of XML.
With some niche exceptions where it has clung on, XML basically died. It's time to move on. The fact that we do similar sorts of stuff with JSON like data transformations and schema validation does not, in any way, shape or form, invalidate its flaws.
The described problem literally doesn't exist in XML. Your XML-validating editor will check your document against the schema and will not allow for an attribute where the sub-element is required and vice versa.
I believe they mean for designing the schema in the first place. Meaning the impedance match between JSON and their chosen language is usually more natural.
I'm not disagreeing but the reason XML was used as data format is that it has native support in browsers (remember XML was created as a simplified SGML subset for eventually replacing HTML), the idea being that you can display service payloads via simple stylesheet applications or element replacement/decoration rather than having to rely on JavaScript or other Turing-complete environment for arbitrary scripting which was seen as having no place as a central technique in classic document-oriented browsing.
JSON became only popular because of similar opportunistic effects (ie being already part of the stack via eval()). If you look at how typical non-JS backends such as Java or .net deal with service request/response data, there's absolutely no advantage for either JSON or XML - both are represented as class/structure and (de-)serialized via binding frameworks and annotations.
There's no particular machine advantage to any human-readable format over an equivalent binary format, sure. However, if you look at human-"readable" formats that predate XML (like HL7[0]) you can appreciate the advantages of a tree-like structure with labelled fields when it comes to human comprehension. I think XML is often difficult for humans to read, and certainly to write, and since this is the only reason to use either language it's an important factor.
I guess you could argue we should all use Protocol Buffers, pickle, Thrift, etc.[1] and only switch to JSON for debugging. I wouldn't disagree. Protobuf is apparently faster than JSON in the browser.
JSON does have one advantage over XML: it maps cleanly onto primitive types in Python and many other languages. XML attributes don’t really have an unambiguous way to be represented using list and map primitives (other than maybe an “everything is a map” model, which sucks from a usability perspective).
I beg to differ. JSON only provides a subset of commonly available data types (quick example: show me a proper 64 bit int, a proper date type or a proper money type). And "everything is a map" is pretty much how python works, but they prefer to call it dicts.
I could go on and explain how JSON is evolving to have exactly all the problems of xml without any of the advantages, and how people keep reinventing the wheel (pun intended for python fans) ignoring why xml is the way it is (and it is quite more robust than anything json). Xml biggest defect was verbosity, specially in a http 1.0 context. With http 1.1 (so nowadays, legacy tech) , most of these problems disappear. I know, parsing of json is quite simple - the reason is the format is lacking.
> since the division between attribute vs child doesn't match most in-memory data structures.
vtables are attributes for pointers. hypergraphs (as used in some tagging systems) have attributes on everything, including attributes. CBOR has optional type-tags on its items.
Actually you should never use attributes in XML at all to represent data. Your first example is correct.
Everyone is just confused because people who didn't know this designed HTML. But also everyone is confused because HTML and XML aren't necessarily related other than some parentage in SGML.
Nope. In markup, attributes are for "metadata", that is, anything not rendered to the reader/user, as opposed to (element) content. The entire purpose of markup is to provide a rich text format via decorating plain text usable from any text editor. Data exchange, or any other application where there is no concept of "rendering to the user", is no primary application for markup.
If anything, what's wrong with HTML in this respect is that JavaScript and CSS can be put inline into content when these should always go into attributes and/or external resources linked via src/href attributes. And this flaw shows indeed where HTML deviates from SGML proper: when the style and script elements were introduced, their "content" needed to be put into SGML comment tags <!-- and --> such that browsers wouldn't render JavaScript snd CSS as text content. I mean, who came up with this brain-dead design?
But CSS is a lost cause anyway. What does it tell you about its designers that they thought, starting with a markup language having pretty intense syntactic constructs already, to tunnel yet another item=value syntax in regular markup attributes? Like replacing <h2 bgcolor=black> by <h2 style="background-color: black"> and then claiming attributes are for "behavior" or whatever nonsense after the fact. Whoever came up with this clearly wasn't a CompSci person. And the syntactic proliferation in CSS completely became out of hand, for the simple reason that HTML evolution was locked down while W3C was focussed on XML/XHTML for over a decade, while the CSS spec process was lenient.
I haven't used XML is a long while, but there was a trick I had when I designed schemas, back when I did use XML all the time. Use an attribute if the data is a primitive String, number, or boolean. Break into multiple attributes if the data is structured but has only one level and has few children. Otherwise use an element. The three rules are simple, but produce schemas easy to read, easy to maintain, and easy to implement against. One code smell is if you start winding up with tons of attributes on one element. That may mean you should break the logical concept that element represents into multiple concepts, have those concepts be nested elements, each with its related attributes.
Corollary: The number (N) of ad hoc support tools needed to do any serious work with a given mark-up language is proportional to the naivety of the implementation (Y).
I see this take often and I think it's pretty bad. JSON (data format) and XML (markup format) are very different. Building tools for JSON doesn't change that in any way.
And it turns out that both JSON and XML are used for data interchange, and when people have data interchange problems, they build tooling to help solve those problems (like schema validation). That doesn't make JSON "like XML", it just means they're discovering the same problem and solving it for the format they're using.
Nice work! I see that that this is for processing / parsing large data sets and where documents do not conform to a fixed structure and for Go language.
I made something similar in Java - unify-jdocs - https://github.com/americanexpress/unify-jdocs - though this is not for parsing - it is more for reading and writing when the structure of the document is known - read and write any JSONPath in one line of code and use model documents to define the structure of the data document (instead of using JSONSchema which I found very unwieldy to use) - no POJOs or model classes - along with many other features. Posting here as the topic is relevant and it may help people in the Java world. We have used it intensively within Amex for a very large complex project and it has worked great for us.
oj comes out very well in that comparison, in terms of both features and performance. Although as you mentioned, it's outdated, not having been updated for over 2 years.
Slightly tangential, but Go's JSON handling has long had room for improvement and it looks like there's going to be a serious overhaul of its capabilities and implementation: https://github.com/golang/go/discussions/63397 -- I'm looking forward to seeing this land.
83 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 167 ms ] thread" A valid example of a SEN document is:
{ one: 1 two: 2 array: [a b c] yes: true } "
{:one 1 :two 2 :array [a b c] :yes true}
cf. https://github.com/edn-format/edn
Likewise, commas are considered whitespace. They are sometimes added to make lengthy maps easier to read.
My immediate question would be what's the JSON for this SEN I've crafted:
For more fun, there's a single problematic entry here, can you spot it?: Or, level expert, there's exactly one problem here as well:I don't get your other examples, can you explain? I assumed that 1.20.4 is not a valid SEN entry, because it starts with a digit but is not a number.
The true/"true" leaves a bad taste in my mouth after yaml, but overall SEN is an improvement :)
` { array: ["string1" "string2" "true" true "True" "TRUE" "yes" "y"] } `
"Strings can also be delimited with a single quote character which allows for a string to be either "abc" or 'abc'."
There's no mention of having a string without a delimeter.
> array: [a b c]
> Note that while JSON Pointer (RFC 6901) is already standardised, it is designed to provide a reference to a single, specific part of a JSON document, whereas JSONPath provides the ability to query a document and potentially return multiple values.
I’m going to invent Baz’s 11th law of computing here: any data format that isn’t XML will evolve into a badly specified version of XML over time.
For machine-to-machine communication, it's very well suited, but most data is simple enough, and the XML libraries I've used tended to be --let's say-- over-engineered, while there are no hoops to jump through when you want to parse JSON.
And one thing I always disliked about XML was the CDATA section: it makes the message even harder to read, and it's not like you're going to use that binary data unparsed/unchecked.
XML just tried to formalize data transfer and description prematurely, which made it rigid and not even sufficiently powerful. I must say that XSLT and XPath were great additions, though.
Compare that to XML where we have a plethora of established tools (Woodstoxx, JAXB, etc.).
What I have trouble to understand, which everybody else just seems to accept as obvious, is why one would take on these problems? Is JSON Schema more powerful than XML Schema? Does the use of JSON have advantages over using XML? When we are talking about a client program calling a server API with JSON/XML, why do we care about the format of data exchanged? What advantages does JSON have in this case in contrast to XML (or for that matter a binary format like Protocol Buffers)? Isn't this the most boring part of the application, which you would want to just get out of the way and work? What are the advantages of JSON over XML that would lead me to deal with the problems of evolving specifications and unreliable tooling?
(And just to repeat, since everybody seems to have a different opinion about this than me, I must be missing something and really would like to learn what!)
OpenAPI is probably used a bit more than json schema, but it's contextually limited to APIs (which, to be fair, is mostly what JSON is used for).
OpenAPI is another example. There are threads on hacker news about generating code from OpenAPI specs. These always seem to say "oh, yes don't use tool X, use tool Y it does not have that problem, although it also doesn't support Z". The consensus seems to be to not generate code from an OpenAPI specification but to just use it as documentation, since all generators are more or less broken. Contrast that with for example JAXB (which is not an exact replacement I know), which has been battle tested for years.
>The consensus seems to be to not generate code from an OpenAPI specification but to just use it as documentation, since all generators are more or less broken.
OpenAPI still functions just fine as a means of documentation and validation.
I'm allergic to all forms of code generation, to be honest. If there is an equivalent of XML in this I imagine it's even more horrendous. I can just imagine chasing down compiler errors indirectly caused by an XML switch not set shudder.
>Contrast that with for example JAXB
JAXB looks like a bolt on to work around XML's deficiencies. There's no need to marshal JSON to special funky data structures in your code because lists and hashmaps are already built in. You can just use those. An equivalent doesn't need to exist.
For schema validation, I think XML has, what, 3 ways of doing it? DTDs? XMLSchema? And now JAXB does a bit of that on the side too? Does that sound like a healthy ecosystem to you? Because it sounds like absolute dogshit to me.
WSDL comes to mind
Honestly the same issue with versioning has been my primary issue with XML Schemas in the past. XSD 1.1 for example came out over a decade ago, but is still very badly supported in most tooling I tried out.
> When we are talking about a client program calling a server API with JSON/XML, why do we care about the format of data exchanged?
We shouldn't care much, beyond debuggability (can a developer easily see what's going on), (de)serialization speed, and bandwith use. JSON and protobuf tend to be a decent chunk smaller than XML, JSON is a bit easier to read, and Protobuf is faster to (de)serialize. This means they should generally be preferred.
In the case of a client program calling a server API I'd personally have the server do the required validation on a deserialized object, instead of doing so through a schema. This is generally easier to work on for all developers in my team, and gets around all the issues with tooling. The only real reason I use schemas is when I'm writing a file by hand, and want autocompletion and basic validations. In that case versioning and tooling issues are completely in my control.
One of the first XSLT transforms I was ever given to maintain generated XML by the same method. <xsl:text><PRICE></xsl:text><xsl:value-of select="PRICE"/><xsl:text></PRICE></xsl:text> and so on.
That's why it never caught on.
The ability of JSON/Javascript to tape together kinda-working solutions before and instead of any kind of specification works is hugely powerful, because it allows iterating on the requirements by having actual users use the app.
http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/xml/soap/simple
I lived through all that, and can totally understand why people turned away in disgust and agreed on REST instead.
S-expressions are the most direct representation of a tree: (root node node ...). Trees are everywhere, they represent any nested structure; lists are logically a subset of trees.
XML is a tree. It has the weird "attribute" node types, a legacy of SGML text markup notation. JSON is a tree, obviously. So is protobuf, thrift, etc. They all could be serialized as s-expressions.
Now, a schema that destined a tree is also a tree. Hence XML Schema, JSONSchema, etc.
More, an abstract program that describes a transformation of a tree is also a tree; this products homoiconic languages, from XSLT to Lisps.
There is nothing special about XML; it's just a particular case of a generic law.
I've not looked at KDL before but a quick scan suggests it's interesting. I will look into it.
When you read the s-expression alternatives proposed to XML with an eye to "How would I actually code against this? How would I actually convince multiple people to use the exact same standard as me? How do I support all the use cases of interest to me?" they completely fall apart. They're too simple. The very fact I have to use the plural for s-expression alternative since no two of them are every quite the same says quite a bit.
When you need that structure, XML is actually a very good choice; the error people made was using it when they didn't need that structure. Note how much of the complaint about using XML, even in this very conversation, is (quite correctly!) "what do I do with all these extra structural elements?" If you don't have a clear answer to that, don't use XML. If you do, don't jam it into s-exprs or JSON either, you end up with an even worse mess.
The same way you agree on an XML schema? I don't know if I quite understand what you want to say - as I see it both are tree structured formats which means they both can represent the same information, just that s-expressions are less verbose but XML has more existing tooling for defining & validating a structure. Though the latter is more an aspect of the ecosystem than the format itself.
Yes.
But my point is, there's a lot of people who seem to think just waving the word "s-expression" at the problem is a solution. If you have to sit down and carefully define the exact standard, the value over XML gets mitigated a lot, because the standard is going to need a lot of stuff in it. It has to at least be as complicated as JSON, and JSON is often not quite enough. You can't just say "why don't we use s-expressions" as if that's an argument on its own.
But the reality is JSON ate that space anyhow. There's no room for something that's "like JSON, but not really" anymore.
XML’s decline from its peak of adoption mean lots of people working with data disagree with you.
Every data format will eventually evolve into a tree
That more ancient law would Greenspun's tenth rule, FYI—or a corollary to it, at least.
The law proposed here (as Baz's 11th law) was intended to be a humorous and obvious pastiche crafted with Greenspun's quip in mind, with the idea being that the reader would be in on the joke (being already familiar with it).
1. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule>
So considering XML is subsetted from SGML, I guess the answer is closer to yes than thought.
Though probably it's worth citing the following quote from that paper:
> If the sweet spot for XML and SGML is marking up “prose documents”, the sweet spot for JSON is collections of atomic values.
[1]: https://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol17/html/Walsh01/Bali...
In the other words, SGML was way too powerful than what we actually needed. Of course we are with the benefit of hindsight though.
The widespread use of markdown and other lightweight markup rather than rigid XML-style fully tagged markup for authoring tells otherwise though. And so does the continued use of HTML chock full of SGMLisms such as tag inference and attribute shortforms that weren't included in the XML subset/profile when XML (XHTML) was created to replace HTML.
So while XML isn't used as an authoring format on the web (nor as delivery format), it's still useful as canonical archival format I guess.
Obviously as a markup language this is fine; as a data format it's bizarre, since the division between attribute vs child doesn't match most in-memory data structures.
With some niche exceptions where it has clung on, XML basically died. It's time to move on. The fact that we do similar sorts of stuff with JSON like data transformations and schema validation does not, in any way, shape or form, invalidate its flaws.
The overcomplicated mess was the WS-* garbage.
JSON became only popular because of similar opportunistic effects (ie being already part of the stack via eval()). If you look at how typical non-JS backends such as Java or .net deal with service request/response data, there's absolutely no advantage for either JSON or XML - both are represented as class/structure and (de-)serialized via binding frameworks and annotations.
I guess you could argue we should all use Protocol Buffers, pickle, Thrift, etc.[1] and only switch to JSON for debugging. I wouldn't disagree. Protobuf is apparently faster than JSON in the browser.
[0] See https://www.interfaceware.com/hl7-message-structure for an example message
[1] I missed Corba and spent the early years of my professional life trying not to touch the SOAP, just in case I dropped it
vtables are attributes for pointers. hypergraphs (as used in some tagging systems) have attributes on everything, including attributes. CBOR has optional type-tags on its items.
Everyone is just confused because people who didn't know this designed HTML. But also everyone is confused because HTML and XML aren't necessarily related other than some parentage in SGML.
If anything, what's wrong with HTML in this respect is that JavaScript and CSS can be put inline into content when these should always go into attributes and/or external resources linked via src/href attributes. And this flaw shows indeed where HTML deviates from SGML proper: when the style and script elements were introduced, their "content" needed to be put into SGML comment tags <!-- and --> such that browsers wouldn't render JavaScript snd CSS as text content. I mean, who came up with this brain-dead design?
But CSS is a lost cause anyway. What does it tell you about its designers that they thought, starting with a markup language having pretty intense syntactic constructs already, to tunnel yet another item=value syntax in regular markup attributes? Like replacing <h2 bgcolor=black> by <h2 style="background-color: black"> and then claiming attributes are for "behavior" or whatever nonsense after the fact. Whoever came up with this clearly wasn't a CompSci person. And the syntactic proliferation in CSS completely became out of hand, for the simple reason that HTML evolution was locked down while W3C was focussed on XML/XHTML for over a decade, while the CSS spec process was lenient.
I suspect the popularity was due to the sax parser and “interop” between C++ and Java.
To me coming from ObjC++, json is just a serialised dictionary.
And it turns out that both JSON and XML are used for data interchange, and when people have data interchange problems, they build tooling to help solve those problems (like schema validation). That doesn't make JSON "like XML", it just means they're discovering the same problem and solving it for the format they're using.
I made something similar in Java - unify-jdocs - https://github.com/americanexpress/unify-jdocs - though this is not for parsing - it is more for reading and writing when the structure of the document is known - read and write any JSONPath in one line of code and use model documents to define the structure of the data document (instead of using JSONSchema which I found very unwieldy to use) - no POJOs or model classes - along with many other features. Posting here as the topic is relevant and it may help people in the Java world. We have used it intensively within Amex for a very large complex project and it has worked great for us.
How about doing comparisons against other implementations?
Like this one: https://github.com/json-iterator/go
Update: found this outdated repo: https://github.com/ohler55/compare-go-json