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Ask HN: Do you upvote? Why or why not?

67 points by takinola ↗ HN
I recently realized that I rarely upvote or downvote so I decided to be more of a good community citizen and start doing so. Then came the question of what does an upvote or downvote mean? Do I downvote an opinion I disagree with even though it is interesting and well reasoned? (By some reasoning, perhaps I should actually be upvoting such comments). I'm obviously overthinking here but I'm curious so indulge me. What is your heuristic for up/down-voting?

79 comments

[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 132 ms ] thread
DamonHD
(I assume that you mean the comments, though the upvote/flag on a top-level item can be similar.)

I can upvote (or downvote) for content that I agree/disagree with as well as how much the comment does/doesn't contribute to the debate, as you suggest. Sometimes those are finely enough balanced for me not to do either!

I tend to reserve downvotes for things that are inflammatory or shallow or dishonest or similar.

LinuxBender
I upvote submissions that I think might lead to interesting discussion whether I agree with them or not and whether I like them or not.

I downvote comments that attack or degrade people ad-hominem and such or that derail the topic or try to bait people.

bediger4000
I upvote a lot. I also downvote and flag culture wars BS submissions and comments.
electroagenda
I upvote topics that are interesting in my opinion.

I still cannot downvote... What means I am only allowed to have a positive attitude with other's comments.

P.D. What karma do you actually need to gain the right to downvote?

burnished
Its 100, I think?
LeonenTheDK
Speaking as someone with over 100, it is not.

Seen frequent references to 500 though.

anononaut
I upvote less than once daily. I don't downvote because I make new accounts on occasion.
f33d5173
I upvote things that I think should be more visible, especially contrasting opinions in a sea of yes-men. I would downvote someone who adds nothing productive to the conversation, for example by arguing a point that has already been raised without responding to what's been said.
Ajedi32
Yes! Some of my favorite discussions I see on Hacker News are the ones where there are good points on both sides and I'm able to just go down the line and upvote an entire conversation thread of people debating with each other.
rcarr
I rarely upvote posts themselves because I forget (I'm trying to do it more), I do upvote comments that I really agree with, offer a really insightful or knowledgable take, or posts that open or change my perspective. I almost never downvote. The only comments I feel should be downvoted are ones containing blatant hate speech like racism. Anything else is tribalism and I would rather all voices be given a chance to speak.

If they're wrong then they won't accumulate upvotes. It's like comedy - if it's funny, people will laugh, if it's not, then they won't. This is why I'm not particularly a fan of the increasing unreadability of downvoted comments - it feels like silencing people. It also gives undue influence to the first readers of the piece and allows individuals or groups with agendas to target and downvote things they don't like with the aim of getting it taken out of the conversation early. I do unfortunately observe this behaviour on contentious topics more regularly than I would like.

If you don't agree with a comment, you should either just ignore it, leave a comment stating why you disagree or ask why the commentator has come to that conclusion. This is far more likely to have a positive impact than downvoting, which is only going to make someone feel attacked, alienated and misunderstood.

subpixel
I realize I probably never upvote posts either, thanks for the reminder.
SCUSKU
I agree with you there. I believe I've seen dang comment that downvoting shouldn't be for disagreements, rather for poor quality content, regardless of whether or not you agree.

On Reddit, downvoting is always a matter of personal opinion, and so it took me a while to adjust to the downvoting style HN advocates for. But I'm mostly used to it now and I have to say I enjoy it. It makes me have to think more critically about why I want to downvote something. Many times I have stopped myself from downvoting something solely because I disagreed, not because it was hateful, racist, etc.

AnimalMuppet
I took the stance that downvoting for disagreement was not OK on HN. dang replied to me, saying that it was allowed. (Though perhaps not ideal? I don't remember - it's been a while. Also, his stance may have changed since.)
CamperBob2
The best solution would be for HN to allow users to opt out of the karma system altogether. Your account would still have a karma and your comments would still be scored, but you couldn't see your own karma or comment scores. You could still upvote, perhaps, but not downvote. And you wouldn't have to put up with the asinine, counterproductive contrast-reduction effect, although you would still have the showdead and vouch options.

I'd check that box in a heartbeat.

sokoloff
Add this to stylus (or other per-site CSS modifying extension):

  @-moz-document domain("news.ycombinator.com") {
  [title=downvote] {
    display: none
  }
  [title=upvote] {
    display: none
  }
  [id=karma] {
    display: none
  }
  [class=score] {
    display: none
  }
  }
That still lets you see that karma exists (and its value) on a user page (including your own). Those trs didn't have class or id info to let me easily hide them.

(Obviously, don't include the "hide the upvote element" if you want to still be able to upvote content.)

qup
Would you see comments weighted by votes?

Is this some kind of emotional response you're having to seeing votes? I don't understand how it would improve the experience.

Sohcahtoa82
Technically, Reddiquette [0] dictates that you shouldn't downvote based on opinion either.

> Please don't [...] Downvote an otherwise acceptable post because you don't personally like it

By trying to argue that is a completely lost cause. Most redditors think the purpose of a downvote is to indicate disagreement.

[0] https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-R...

pixl97
This is why the linear vote system just sucks, but no one seems brave enough to try anything else. No one seems to have the same intent values internally on what the up and down arrows actually mean.

I'd love quadrant or orange slice style voting where you have multiple options like "I agree" or "good content" and the converse options, but tiny phone interfaces really tend to limit what people can click on.

fragmede
The up/down arrows are too small to hit easily on a tiny phone anyway. There could be a button for "this post made me feel a certain way", and then it would pop up a pie menu to select an options for how it made you feel or your reaction to it, which would work, even on a tiny phone screen.
yjftsjthsd-h
This is why the linear vote system just sucks, but no one seems brave enough to try anything else. No one seems to have the same intent values internally on what the up and down arrows actually mean.

Slashdot did it better:) I guess https://slashdot.org/faq/metamod.shtml is a decent link? Basically, instead of just upvote, you get funny/interesting/informative/etc. and instead of just downvote/flag you get offtopic/troll/offtopic/etc.

glenstein
>By trying to argue that is a completely lost cause. Most redditors think the purpose of a downvote is to indicate disagreement.

You are completely right, but I would say it's even worse than this. I believe it has become an established community norm, not only to reflexively downvote, but to treat complaints or concerns about this behavior as poor form which is out of bounds, and which is also downvoted.

And so the bad down voting behavior is there, and because it's the mindless mass, and reflexively defense itself when it gets called out, a community norm of enshrining this bad behavior has crystallized.

rcarr
I'm no saint, I've definitely been guilty of a "spite downvote" when I've let my anger and frustration get the better of me, especially in my earlier days of commenting, both here and elsewhere. I don't think I've done it in a long time though and hopefully never will again. I did however the other day accuse animal lovers of acting like "fucking militants" and quite rightly got flagged for it.

I'm a work in progress and striving to be better and I think that's all you can ask of anyone really. We're all at various stages of development and none of us know what's going on in the life of the people we're talking to. You could be speaking to a teenager with very little life experience who's just ignorant and doesn't really understand the consequences of the position they're arguing for or you could have someone in the 60s who's just lost their spouse and had their whole life come crashing down around them. Downvoting is going to help neither of these people, but leaving a comment might. In the case of the former, what's obvious to you isn't so obvious to them, so you can help enlighten. In the case of the latter, sometimes if you can say the right thing or ask the right question it can help them right themselves.

It doesn't even have to be that extreme, I've had plenty of debates on here that end up arriving at a point of mutual agreement which is always nice and often leads to growth on both sides.

dredmorbius
I believe I've seen dang comment that downvoting shouldn't be for disagreements ...

dang explicitly refutes this:

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15310088>

Downvoting content that runs afoul of HN guidelines and/or drags discussions in uninteresting directions is functioning as intended:

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22891768>

(Searching Algolia with "by:dang <terms>" (in comments) is a useful way to check for moderator views on a particular topic or question.)

"by:dang downvote disagree" <https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...>

[deleted]
(comment deleted)
ignoramous
> ...almost never downvote... This is why I'm not particularly a fan of the increasing unreadability of downvoted comments...

  Agree. Take my upvote.
> If you don't agree with a comment... leave a comment stating why you disagree or ask why the commentator has come to that conclusion. This is far more likely to have a positive impact than downvoting, which is only going to make someone feel attacked, alienated and misunderstood.

  Disagree. Take my downvote.
gumby
I upvote submissions I think are good in the hope that they get more readers and and increased number interesting comments.

I upvote comments that I think are particularly interesting and downvote comments I think aren't worth reading (criteria: factual errors or inflammatory language/positions, like blatant racism).

Comments I disagree with (e.g. somebody claiming distributed blockchains or crypto currency have some sort of value) I just ignore (I have never seen such comments combined with racism, so wouldn't downvote).

em-bee
downvoting, which is only going to make someone feel attacked, alienated and misunderstood

that's how i felt initially when i got downvotes. but eventually i got used to it and as time went on i noticed that comments that were downvoted were usually more opinionated in the sense that it was reasonable and to be expected for someone to disagree. and realizing that made it much easier to accept the downvote as just that, a disagreement.

now it gets really interesting when i get a downvote and later an upvote. then i always wonder did the initial downvoter change their mind, or did someone else upvote. sometimes i'd really like to know.

for myself i downvote comments that i strongly disagree with and also comments that demonstrate a lack of understanding of the comment they respond to, or look like they are not reading the parent comment in good faith, or are belaboring their point, especially when it is clear that the other party already understood them the first time. in other words i downvote what i think are bad contributions to a discussion.

jppope
sure! share the love (if it deserves love).
burnished
I upvote things I think are valuable; empathy, humor, thoughtful explanations. Just when I think about it. I also upvote comments that sparked a lot of good discussion for visibility.

I downvote things that are rude, mostly terse point scoring behavior (not addressing what was said but implying something about the poster).

I flag outright aggro stuff.

Kelteseth
Yes but it is awful on mobile because I have to zoom in and always check if I did down vote by mistake.
rcarr
I feel this pain. I went through my profile the other day and found I'd flagged something like ten posts entirely accidentally, presumably by hitting the flag button whilst scrolling on mobile.
Kelteseth
Yeah same. And I don't want to install an app with a better UI just to browse Hackernews
Disruptive_Dave
Never upvote posts. I upvote comments, though my bar for upvoting is embarrassingly higher than my bar for dishing out downvotes.
sokoloff
For a time, I tried modifying my behavior by hiding downvote links on via a Stylus CSS:

  [title=downvote] {
    display: none
  }
I had an already high upvote:downvote ratio, but this made me even more conscious of the few times I bothered to downvote a comment (because it meant I had to take extra steps to disable that CSS). I mostly only downvote for flamebait or outrageously unproductive comments.
hkt
I upvote items that are of interest to me, or things I'd rather see at the top of the front page (compared to what is there already).

For comments, I'll upvote insight or prosocial behaviour (praise directed at a free software author's comment, say). Plus, anything by people who are clearly authoritative and making posts which contain valuable perspectives. Plus, anything people need to hear.

Downvotes I try to reserve for people who are rude, clueless, or obtuse. An example here might be the "but solar panels use fossil fuels for their production" types of comments where the obvious next question - "do they produce more energy than they take to make?" - is left unasked and unanswered by the poster. Disingenuous comments, in other words.

Sohcahtoa82
> Downvotes I try to reserve for people who are rude, clueless, or obtuse.

I wish I could double-downvote to obtuse comments, specifically the people who are not only needlessly pedantic, but outright wrong in their pedantry.

c7DJTLrn
I upvote things I agree with and downvote things I disagree with.

Just kidding. I only vote on comments, and pretty rarely.

HumblyTossed
I do.

I upvote comments I agree with.

I upvote comments I disagree with, but other people seem to agree with.

I downvote obnoxious or distateful comments.

perceptronas
I upvote things that are interesting to me and hope they will be interesting for others. I rarely downvote. Maybe only rude comments? Not sure, but it happens rarely.
forinti
I upvote stories that are important to me; those that are just interesting I rarely upvote.
rpmisms
I don't downvote unless it's an obvious troll. I upvote if it's well written ANDOR it's a well-made point. If I get into a debate in the comments with a smart person, I upvote every reply they make to remind myself that they deserve respect.
crznp
I cannot downvote here anyway, which is fine.

On other platforms, I have come to believe that it is healthier for me to reply to content that I feel good about upvoting, and just moving on if I am tempted to downvote.

rpmisms
There is a karma threshold for downvoting, which is very smart.
AnimalMuppet
I upvote what I consider to be good points. That is not always something I agree with. "Disagree but made me think" is about the highest praise possible on HN.

I downvote things that I think are factually wrong, or things that are opinions but are stated as fact and are (IMO) wrong. I also downvote hostility, aggression, name calling, flamebait/trolling, blatant politics, spam, bad faith arguments. I sometimes downvote arguing without actually listening to the parent's argument.

kaffeeringe
I upvote post that I want more people to see.
sndwnm
I never downvote and almost never upvote. Having spent time on 4chan and other imageboards, I have seen discussions work just fine without any ranking mechanism, and as such I have become skeptical of the usual upvote schemes.

When there are no ranks (or even usernames), you need to use your own thinking to evaluate the posts. Even if it requires more scrolling, it's worth it. If you are looking for the hot parts of the discussion, you can use the number of replies to a given post as a proxy — it could be considered a UI issue of HN that it's not shown very clearly here.

marginalia_nu
I mostly upvote posts that make an interesting argument.
ge96
I do. As part of keeping track of what I found interesting/participated in. I rarely downvote though and I favorite stuff that I really want to keep.
stephenitis
The upvote / downvote button is really tiny on mobile. my thumb doesn't hit the mark often enough for me to often do it.

Maybe the color doesn't draw my eye enough.

it seems random when I really assess something I like.

Sometimes when I see good content that has a low vote count I upvote it.

kaycebasques
> Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.

Upvote thoughtful / substantive comments, regardless of personal opinion. Downvote unthoughtful / unsubstantive comments, regardless of personal opinion.

dpkirchner
I upvote comments that make cogent arguments or provide useful information. I downvote comments that are trolling (feigning ignorance to make a point, promoting hate, etc) and whining about being downvoted.

I haven't been good about upvoting posts, but when I do it's because I find them interesting.