That doesn't necessarily mean that there is not a zero day available for Windows 7 or that hackers don't have access to those systems in some way.
The good zero days are found by or sold to governments or elite independent hacking groups working on an international level. They tend to be more interested in targeted attacks against specific individuals or organizations.
Once a zero day is leaked to the public, typically it is quickly adopted by botnet operators to take advantage of un-patched systems.
That's mostly a lot of fantasy "what ifs" and a nothing-burger for everyone else in the real world. If you know yourself to be a potential target for governments zero days, then you probably won't be running Windows 7 anymore. If you're an important asset and still running Windows 7 on-line when free upgrades to Windows 10 were available in the last 8 years, you should fire your sys-admin as even bottom of the barrel Wallmart laptops sell with Windows 11 for over a year now.
That's exactly how people end up the victim of a ransomware attack. It's not worth it unless you really don't care about your computer and attached storage. I'm not a government agent but I'm still not risking it on my personal computer.
Once a zero day is leaked online, it becomes the most powerful weapon to getting into a given system. Even when Microsoft races to put out a patch, millions of systems can be compromised first. It has happened before so it's not so hypothetical.
Windows 7 and Windows 10 had very similar minimum hardware requirements, and few if any artificial restrictions on what hardware is supported. Same with Windows XP when moving to Windows 7. Technology was also much faster moving and new significant features that benefited from hardware improvements were being introduced all the time.
Now the focus is on efficiency and power consumption. As a result, any computer made in the last 10-12 years will be perfectly suitable for what 90% of people use their computers for. The 8th generation Intel cutoff for Windows 11 is ridiculous and is causing this problem.
Yes, Windows 11 works fine on older hardware if you force it to install but most people will not go this route. They’ll continue to use their insecure PC on the internet because it runs very well and does everything they need it to do, and we’ll have a nightmare on our hands.
The landscape is totally different from XP to 7 and from 7 to 10. Microsoft knows that and these pointless hardware reqs are a transparent attempt to force people to upgrade for no reason. The desktop and laptop market has fully stalled, and there is no compelling reason to upgrade your computer if you aren’t using it for gaming or processor/GPU intensive work. This is their attempt to boost sales without innovating, and it’s going to be devastating.
Meh, IoT devices and ancient Android phones are a much lower hanging fruits for botnets and hackers than old Windows PCs. Targeting Windows PCs is sooo 2006.
The point is they can't. Win11 won't install on older PCs due to arbitrary TPM and CPU generation requirements.
Sure, there are ways people can technically bypass those restrictions but the normal PC user won't be able to do that. They'll just keep using Win10 without security updates.
Apple Silicon Macs can run Linux, too: Apple designed the boot code signing process to support custom operating systems without access to private data on macOS.
I don't worry about driver support. Everything on my system works out of the box and NVIDIA drivers can be installed with one-click from GNOME Software.
You can install Asahi Linux on any of the M1/2 Macs. And even if Microsoft and Apple stop giving updates you can still run the machine with the last OS. I’ve been running a 2012 Mac mini just fine and it hasn’t seen updates in a while.
>But let’s be honest, while some users will certainly see Ubuntu, Fedora, Arch, or Debian as a viable alternative (or upgrade) to Windows, most personal and business users aren’t going to go that route.
Yeah, you and me could save one of these machines from being e-waste, but most people won't bother. The headline is a bit questionable, but that's more common than not. I had a similar initial reaction to you (minus the Apple Silicon bit, I have high hopes for Asahi), but upon seeing the website url I was pretty sure they'd mention GNU/Linux somewhere in there.
The article does discuss the alternative of installing Linux. The reason it's not a good alternative is that businesses are unlikely to run Linux for day-to-day operations. While Linux may be a common topic of discussion in this online community, the majority of people affected by the increased Windows system requirements may not be familiar with Linux. I can also predict that by the time Apple decides to remove 1st generation silicon Macs from their OS support, there will likely be a Linux distribution that can run natively, such as Asahi. However, businesses using M1 Macs are unlikely to opt for Linux as an alternative; they will likely opt to purchase new computers instead.
Just a reminder that Windows 10 LTSC IOT has support until 2032. It runs just fine on any PC currently running regular Windows 10. In fact, if you have a low-end PC I recommend running LTSC over regular Windows because it performs significantly better.
No, there really isn't a way for regular users to get an official license. So if that is a problem for you, then it's not an option. For the rest of us it's a great option and will allow you to use your current computers and receive windows security updates for another 10years.
It may be frowned upon to link to it here. But If I were looking, I would do a google search for "Microsoft Activation Scripts" and I would probably find an excellent github webpage. ;)
I would also probably need a separate ISO for Windows 10 LTSC IOT. I think I would check archive.org for something like that. ;)
As other commenters said, Windows 10 will continue to work even without updates, but also, if you insist that your OS receives updates, you can bypass the TPM requirement for Windows 11 because it isn't a technical one. It doesn't rely on the TPM for any critical functionality. This "requirement" is entirely fake.
IIRC upgrade-in-place won't work without TPM hardware, but fresh installs work. (I was able to do that on an older Surface that nominally wasn't Win-11 compatible).
Unless their data is all cloud or roaming profile or whatever, fresh install isn't an option for most users, ie non-enterprise. Backup, upgrade, restore is a pain for every upgrade or patch. Another reason to get off Windows and be done with it.
No.
The wife accidentally clicked on some dark pattern that updated her laptop to 11.
It lasted just over a day before she got me to roll it back to 10. Horrific.
I was able to skip Vista by going strait from xp to 7. I fear I won't be able to skip 11, and I worry about that. Linux has been so close to being a daily driver for years now, but the polish is just not there to be a computer I use when I don't want to constantly troubleshoot.
I have a sinking feeling by the time Windows 10 support ends Microsoft will begin rolling out more and more "functionality" which requires it (both first and third party). It'd be kind of pointless to force now when you can just run Windows 10 and bypass it.
OTOH who knows, maybe they just want to be able to say BYOD will always be able to comply with your corporate requirements for bitlocker or something
Headline is perfectly fine. The average person is not installing Linux. The average person is not installing LTSC. The average person will, however, continue using 10 beyond its EOL and join a merry band of botnets.
I have a two desktop computers that are plenty fast that my wife and I play games on. There is no reason to upgrade. Yet, Microsoft is trying to to them into ewaste.
for non-business users, why does OS still matter these days?
I used to be a pure Linux desktop user, for two decades, recently I had to use windows and macos for a few months combined.
In the end, 95% of the time was spent inside a browser, the OS seems non-exist to me for the most part, I now consider myself OS neutral though still prefer Linux when I can choose. Welcome to the cloud era.
agree, for non-business(who also are in fact migrating to office365 online than locally installed office suite) and gamers, windows makes sense, for the rest 90%(?) user base it seems to me all OSes will do just fine.
Gaming in general. Comfort that things work like you're used to. Compatibility with various software.
I've got a Linux and a Mac Partition as well, but in the end I'm just more used to Windows and it works best with all the software I use. Proton is still limited for gaming, the Linux DEs all have drawbacks over windows explorer and macos doesn't even have proton going for it.
I have a bunch of Windows desktops at home that share files using my Windows Onedrive (or LiveDrive or SkyDrive or whatever Microsoft calls it these days - each machine seems to have a different opinion).
What's a good easy-to-use alternative for that in the Linux world?
Ideally it would also allow me to share between my Windows and Linux machines to make transitioning easier.
I'm using syncthing: https://syncthing.net/ It requires that at least two machines be up for syncing to happen, but if you have a home server that isn't a problem.
An average user just needs a web browser these days, but if you do any serious creative work, art/design/music/video etc, you’ve probably got to choose between Windows and Mac
Any workstation use like music/ video production, CAD of any sort, CAM of any sort, device programming/ debugging. These are not always used in “business” but in hobbies too.
Indeed, there is no quicker way to amass downvotes than to criticize Apple on HN. Fair or not it will attract the ire of the masses.
I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out why the tech industry and the hacker community especially can be so enamored of an anti-hacker company like Apple that it becomes part of their identity, leading to hyper defensiveness and the downvoting/killing we see. I don't feel like I understand it yet so I'd be fascinated to hear theories.
A long time ago Apples were the computers of rebels and creatives (i.e. smart counterculture types). For a lot of Gen X and late Millennials it has somehow kept that aura despite being the epitome of mainstream, while simultaneously now having an aura of luxury akin to BMW in the car space.
Steve Jobs' reality distortion field lives on from the grave.
When i did my undergrad (northeast state school), there were more linux users in cs / math than windows or mac. In startupy tech places they often use mac as well (instead of linux for some reason). And big tech usually uses mac (better reasons i think). Private schools and rich neighborhoods are like 95% mac usage, its wild. So I have always assumed it had to do with class growing up, working class kids like linux since they can run their own stuff and revive old computers.
I can do everything that I want to do on my MacBook that I could do on my previous Linux laptop. I use the CLI a lot, and I can run any local servers that I want. I can program in any language and install or compile everything I need on it.
Also, when it’s broken, I can take it into a store and it’s fixed in hours. I’m a parent and old so I value my time more than anything. Linux doesn’t allow me to do what I want while also being stupid easy to fix, which would be fine for young me, but not today.
You value something else other than your time, so you prefer Linux because whatever you value isn’t available in Apple products. It’s not hard to understand: people like different things.
HN is pretty balanced between Apple haters and Apple lovers, the downvotes come from either poorly thought out comments or one side or the other downvoting/killing based on ideology rather than for any rational reason.
On the whole (macro-level) you're probably right, but HN is pretty fragmented by interest. For example on this article (micro-level) there aren't as many mac users because the headline doesn't interest them. But if you go to a mac-related headline, it will be 90+% Apple lovers and any criticism whatsoever will get your comment obliviated.
People will self select the articles are interested in. For example, anytime a vaccine related article comes up on HN, the anti vaxers appears in force, but I doubt this represents much about HN’s true membership.
But ya, the thread’s specifically about Apple’s product announcement attract a lot of traffic but are still selecting for their reader’s biases. I guess many Apple haters are unique in that they are extremely interested in participating in Apple-focused posts, rather than just ignoring them. I personally will downvote the “I hate the X (eg iPhone) so you shouldn’t be able to buy X” comments, which I find really bizarre.
> I personally will downvote the “I hate the X (eg iPhone) so you shouldn’t be able to buy X” comments, which I find really bizarre.
The bizarre part is why do you want to see people as worse than they actually are? Doesn't make sense. Nobody on HN is saying you shouldn't be allowed to buy an iPhone, you telling yourself that is their argument isn't helping you, you would be much happier if you understood them better.
For sure there are plenty of anti-apple comments that lack merit and deserve a downvote. I certainly won't disagree with that.
And I also agree, it is interesting how many Apple haters will read Apple articles. I think the reason for that is that Apple is such a powerful defining force for the tech world. What Apple does has heavy ramifications for everyone, not just Apple fans. For example, removing the headphone jack, charging 30% for the app store, creating the AirPods, establishing a market for smart watches, and now potentially establishing a market for VR headsets, particularly on the high end and with normal people i.e. non-gamers (I say that with love as I am a gamer).
Social media reputation "protection" is used by all major corporations, even if they say they don't, they'll often retain the services of independent PR/marketing firms who then retain the services of shill farms. It's just Russian Dolls of plausible deniability, which makes sense if you think about it, if a firm was trying to improve their online reputation/social media buzz, they wouldn't want to risk having it ironically backfire by being outed for using shills.
This trope is getting tired. It is perfectly valid to ask why an author of a piece focused on one company and not another. It is perfectly valid to point out that while _x_ does a thing, _y_ also does the thing. It doesn't invalidate the original criticism at all, in fact "how would I feel if a company/person/country I admire did this?" is an incredibly useful tool to check against one's own biases.
Calling something what-about-ism doesn't contribute to a discussion, it kills it. And it doesn't support the point nor does it refute the counterpoint.. It just dismisses any opportunity for discussion.
I’m curious what was so egregious about my comment that you felt the need to flag it. That seems like a pretty extreme thing to do over pointing out a clear example of whataboutism.
I didn't flag it. I don't believe that I've ever flagged a comment. I believe doing so removes the opportunity for dialog and only serves to give the illusion of consensus or harmony
Yeah the headline is so exaggerated you can literally come up with a retort faster than they could come up with it. Heck I bet if a new Windows XP exploit showed up tomorrow it would still wreck chaos.
The whole fake TPM requirement seems very un-Microsoft to me, to the point that I question if they were paid off by hardware manufacturers to sell new machines.
Prior to Windows 11, they would at least try to run Windows on basically any device that wanted to. I have been using Windows since 3.1 and the only thing that ever held a computer back was the architecture move from 16 bit to 32 bit. My 286 couldn’t run Windows 95, but it was already painfully underpowered at the time.
In contrast, I have a pretty powerful 8-core Ryzen desktop with 64gb of RAM, well beyond the capabilities of any cheap Windows 11 computer from a big box, and yet Windows 11 just blanket tells me it’s not supported… for reasons. Could I hack it to get it to run? Yes. There’s no legitimate reason I should have to though.
I don’t know why they would do this other than being bribed.
> The whole fake TPM requirement seems very un-Microsoft to me
Then you don't know about Palladium, a/k/a the Next Generation Secure Computing Base, which Microsoft started developing in 1997. It's explicit goal was digital restrictions management. They co-founded the TCPA in 1999 to develop the TPM hardware spec.
They seem to be using the TPM for Office 365 licensing as well [1]. Presumably this will move to a requirement around the same time Windows 10 support ends.
I imagine Windows 11 without a TPM will be treated like a rooted Android device. It may work, but many apps, Office 365 in this case, will enforce their own TPM requirements.
So, let me see. Office 365 won't run on my perfectly-good machine.
That means that Office 365 will have to get the boot.
As an 'oldie', I can remember when every office computer had to have .doc capability. I haven't seen a .doc file (including .docx) for years. Everybody uses .pdf these days. Why? Simply because there's no bullshit about reading or writing .pdf files.
> I don’t know why they would do this other than being bribed.
I wouldn't rule that out, but I do think there are other reasons too. Like the bulk of corporate decisions, it's probably justified by something like, "the security of our users is important and without a TPM we can't guarantee integrity of the OS <blah> <blah>". The fact that it also nets a whole lot of hardware sales (which flow directly to MS in the form of Windows licenses, and some first party hardware sales) is of course also a business factor in the decision, but that's not one they would publically acknowledge and they would probably avoid saying it among themselves too because that's the current business fashion of the day.
So I think a more fair sum would be: "There are some real 'benefits' to users to have a TPM, and that's a convenient vehicle for enforcing a policy that generates additional revenue"
To me it seems perfectly in line with their campaign of creating a walled garden by pushing for UWP apps (remember the boycott by epic and Valve pushing the Steam machines using Linux as an alternative).
I could say exactly the opposite: it's been always like this, there was even a popular saying about it[0]. I don't know if there is monetary compensation but there might be other agreements and motivations in place.
I think probably the issues with your desktop is that the TPM is turned off in the mobo settings. Windows does an awful job at this by not explaining it at all, but you can go turn it on and windows will probably work again.
PSA: many desktop machines without a TPM still have a header for one. You can plug in a TPM module compatible with your motherboard, which costs about $20 from Amazon.
I thought 'Planned Obsolescence' went out with Detroit.
Seems I'm wrong again.
Seriously, if lots of people find their perfectly useful Microsoft devices aren't usable, the next time they buy something they'll make sure it's not a Microsoft device.
In the car business, they'd call that 'Buying a Lemon'. That reminds me, I must see if I can sell my Pinto.
108 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 166 ms ] threadThe good zero days are found by or sold to governments or elite independent hacking groups working on an international level. They tend to be more interested in targeted attacks against specific individuals or organizations.
Once a zero day is leaked to the public, typically it is quickly adopted by botnet operators to take advantage of un-patched systems.
Once a zero day is leaked online, it becomes the most powerful weapon to getting into a given system. Even when Microsoft races to put out a patch, millions of systems can be compromised first. It has happened before so it's not so hypothetical.
https://techcrunch.com/2022/09/14/microsoft-zero-day-windows...
But you have no guarantee from Microsoft that they'll continue to do so like you do with something still in lifecycle.
Now the focus is on efficiency and power consumption. As a result, any computer made in the last 10-12 years will be perfectly suitable for what 90% of people use their computers for. The 8th generation Intel cutoff for Windows 11 is ridiculous and is causing this problem.
Yes, Windows 11 works fine on older hardware if you force it to install but most people will not go this route. They’ll continue to use their insecure PC on the internet because it runs very well and does everything they need it to do, and we’ll have a nightmare on our hands.
The landscape is totally different from XP to 7 and from 7 to 10. Microsoft knows that and these pointless hardware reqs are a transparent attempt to force people to upgrade for no reason. The desktop and laptop market has fully stalled, and there is no compelling reason to upgrade your computer if you aren’t using it for gaming or processor/GPU intensive work. This is their attempt to boost sales without innovating, and it’s going to be devastating.
Not true: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34678812
Sure, there are ways people can technically bypass those restrictions but the normal PC user won't be able to do that. They'll just keep using Win10 without security updates.
https://asahilinux.org/
https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Feature-Support
>But let’s be honest, while some users will certainly see Ubuntu, Fedora, Arch, or Debian as a viable alternative (or upgrade) to Windows, most personal and business users aren’t going to go that route.
Yeah, you and me could save one of these machines from being e-waste, but most people won't bother. The headline is a bit questionable, but that's more common than not. I had a similar initial reaction to you (minus the Apple Silicon bit, I have high hopes for Asahi), but upon seeing the website url I was pretty sure they'd mention GNU/Linux somewhere in there.
No, there really isn't a way for regular users to get an official license. So if that is a problem for you, then it's not an option. For the rest of us it's a great option and will allow you to use your current computers and receive windows security updates for another 10years.
I would also probably need a separate ISO for Windows 10 LTSC IOT. I think I would check archive.org for something like that. ;)
Is the Win11 user experience any better yet? Can I clear all junk from the taskbar and start menu without Explorer patching tools?
I skipped Win8 entirely, going from 7 to 10, and was hoping 11 would be another ‘skippable bad release’ followed by a more appealing Win12
No. The wife accidentally clicked on some dark pattern that updated her laptop to 11. It lasted just over a day before she got me to roll it back to 10. Horrific.
If you're asking me, the last sane version of Windows was 7. It's all downhill after it.
sileh sigh
OTOH who knows, maybe they just want to be able to say BYOD will always be able to comply with your corporate requirements for bitlocker or something
I used to be a pure Linux desktop user, for two decades, recently I had to use windows and macos for a few months combined.
In the end, 95% of the time was spent inside a browser, the OS seems non-exist to me for the most part, I now consider myself OS neutral though still prefer Linux when I can choose. Welcome to the cloud era.
Roblox for the kids, and a bunch of hardware my wife uses don’t have Linux software available either.
What is true for you and me is not always true for others.
What's a good easy-to-use alternative for that in the Linux world?
Ideally it would also allow me to share between my Windows and Linux machines to make transitioning easier.
I tend to prefer syncthing over a cloud app but I have used the nextcloud accound that I got when I installed /e/OS rom on my smartphone in the past.
Or my perfectly good MacBook Pro that's three years out of a supported Apple OS but can still run up to date Windows or Linux?
All because Apple was too lazy to maintain a few hardware drivers.
The more it happens when I see an "unpopular Apple Criticism" here, almost makes me think that they have an equivalent of the 50 cent army.
Its a little too questionable here. Then again, it's VC's who have the logs where those IP's down downvotes are coming from.
I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out why the tech industry and the hacker community especially can be so enamored of an anti-hacker company like Apple that it becomes part of their identity, leading to hyper defensiveness and the downvoting/killing we see. I don't feel like I understand it yet so I'd be fascinated to hear theories.
Steve Jobs' reality distortion field lives on from the grave.
Also, when it’s broken, I can take it into a store and it’s fixed in hours. I’m a parent and old so I value my time more than anything. Linux doesn’t allow me to do what I want while also being stupid easy to fix, which would be fine for young me, but not today.
You value something else other than your time, so you prefer Linux because whatever you value isn’t available in Apple products. It’s not hard to understand: people like different things.
But ya, the thread’s specifically about Apple’s product announcement attract a lot of traffic but are still selecting for their reader’s biases. I guess many Apple haters are unique in that they are extremely interested in participating in Apple-focused posts, rather than just ignoring them. I personally will downvote the “I hate the X (eg iPhone) so you shouldn’t be able to buy X” comments, which I find really bizarre.
The bizarre part is why do you want to see people as worse than they actually are? Doesn't make sense. Nobody on HN is saying you shouldn't be allowed to buy an iPhone, you telling yourself that is their argument isn't helping you, you would be much happier if you understood them better.
And I also agree, it is interesting how many Apple haters will read Apple articles. I think the reason for that is that Apple is such a powerful defining force for the tech world. What Apple does has heavy ramifications for everyone, not just Apple fans. For example, removing the headphone jack, charging 30% for the app store, creating the AirPods, establishing a market for smart watches, and now potentially establishing a market for VR headsets, particularly on the high end and with normal people i.e. non-gamers (I say that with love as I am a gamer).
Calling something what-about-ism doesn't contribute to a discussion, it kills it. And it doesn't support the point nor does it refute the counterpoint.. It just dismisses any opportunity for discussion.
Prior to Windows 11, they would at least try to run Windows on basically any device that wanted to. I have been using Windows since 3.1 and the only thing that ever held a computer back was the architecture move from 16 bit to 32 bit. My 286 couldn’t run Windows 95, but it was already painfully underpowered at the time.
In contrast, I have a pretty powerful 8-core Ryzen desktop with 64gb of RAM, well beyond the capabilities of any cheap Windows 11 computer from a big box, and yet Windows 11 just blanket tells me it’s not supported… for reasons. Could I hack it to get it to run? Yes. There’s no legitimate reason I should have to though.
I don’t know why they would do this other than being bribed.
Then you don't know about Palladium, a/k/a the Next Generation Secure Computing Base, which Microsoft started developing in 1997. It's explicit goal was digital restrictions management. They co-founded the TCPA in 1999 to develop the TPM hardware spec.
[1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/troubleshoot/activa...
That means that Office 365 will have to get the boot.
As an 'oldie', I can remember when every office computer had to have .doc capability. I haven't seen a .doc file (including .docx) for years. Everybody uses .pdf these days. Why? Simply because there's no bullshit about reading or writing .pdf files.
I wouldn't rule that out, but I do think there are other reasons too. Like the bulk of corporate decisions, it's probably justified by something like, "the security of our users is important and without a TPM we can't guarantee integrity of the OS <blah> <blah>". The fact that it also nets a whole lot of hardware sales (which flow directly to MS in the form of Windows licenses, and some first party hardware sales) is of course also a business factor in the decision, but that's not one they would publically acknowledge and they would probably avoid saying it among themselves too because that's the current business fashion of the day.
So I think a more fair sum would be: "There are some real 'benefits' to users to have a TPM, and that's a convenient vehicle for enforcing a policy that generates additional revenue"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_and_Bill%27s_law
What kind of bullshit is this?
Just install FreeBSD/Linux/Illumos there and everything works.
adobe products is just bad decision making /s
citation needed.
Ps: I have stocks of hw companies
Seems I'm wrong again.
Seriously, if lots of people find their perfectly useful Microsoft devices aren't usable, the next time they buy something they'll make sure it's not a Microsoft device.
In the car business, they'd call that 'Buying a Lemon'. That reminds me, I must see if I can sell my Pinto.