Ask HN: To what extent have digital payments replaced cash in your country?
I've been based in Vietnam for the past few years. This country seems to be relatively slow in adopting digital payment methods (which is just fine by me, btw.). Cash is still accepted anywhere and also still appears to be the most common payment method. When it comes to digital payments, regular bank transfers via bank apps seem to be the most popular option. I take it that the same is the case for other countries in the region, such as Thailand, Cambodia and Laos. But it does make me wonder, how is the situation in other places? Do people in your country still use cash on a daily basis? If not, what is the go-to payment method?
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[ 4.4 ms ] story [ 219 ms ] thread(although the b2c charges for the businesses are quite substantial...)
Please note that card payments are not at all popular in India and UPI is the most common means of digital payment.
Edit: I meant card instead of cash
smartphones are necessary to pay via UPI
smartphones--bank accounts--aadhaar card
in case of some low income workers, smartphones are not universal
in case of some migrant workers (including those that come from neighboring countries in search of jobs) .. aadhaar or bank account may not be immediately available
while digital payments are definitely becoming common cash is still accepted
in some cases autorikshaw drivers either avoided UPI (because something went wrong previously and their account went into negative balance ..so any payments they accept there will be swallowed by the app) ..or sometimes ask for cash as preferred mode because for them it is easier to spend immediately (sometimes even for sentimental reasons like first ride of the day)
Cash creates a problem of giving change that end up dissatisfying the customer or the customer just leaves. Only after UPI people understood this so now they want you to buy it as payments are not a hassle. Rickshaws in cities have lost interest in random hires. I have waited 45 minutes for rickshaws. Everyone is on Uber or Ola cause they will show up and say cancel the request and give me little less money instead. Pretty common. So they don’t have the option to say no to UPI. They try to give you reasons why it’s not working but they just want cash for obvious reasons.
UPI also allows people to have multiple accounts in family to accept payments. This way they can avoid any tax payments as small amounts in small villages are not scrutinised by the income tax department.
UPI has created more and easier transactions. Small village or big town, I’ve never seen a shop without a QR code in the last year or so.
When we talk in absolutes like this, it sounds like technology worship.
I am not out here to denounce UPI or to say it is fraught with issues. Acknowledging limitations, edge cases, or the reality of some of the citizens for whom UPi is not the solution goes a long way in ensuring inclusive tech.
I am in the Silicon Valley of India and the monthly salaries I pay to household help are in cash. I would so prefer to switch to digital myself if they had that option. We can't simply deny the reality they live in because we love the new tech or the people that promote it.
The suggestion is to assume that there are people who cannot use UPI and other shiny new tech, and make accommodations for them to lead their lives, rather than push for all digital and exclude some people.
No.
[1] UPI money transfer without Internet or smartphone; know how to do it - https://www.businesstoday.in/industry/banks/story/upi-money-...
There are areas without reliable mobile coverage... where people who need aadhaar authentication OTPs for their livelihood now, thanks to overzealous implementation of technology, are adversely impacted.
The suggestion is to assume that there are people who cannot use UPI and other shiny new tech, and make accommodations for them to lead their lives, rather than push for all digital and exclude some people.
(I don't have an Aadhaar, and it works fine across multiple banks)
Aren't all banks mandating Aadhaar based KYC and freezing accounts if there is no aadhaar? Atleast I know SBI did. And even PAN to Aadhaar linkage has also been made "mandatory"...even though the legality of the mandate is dubious, and there have been many deadline extensions.
The PAN Aadhaar linkage has caused some investment issues for me.
This is false. https://www.orfonline.org/research/indias-upi-market/ (article from last month, citing the latest figures available to it.) "While India has recorded a significant increase in digital transactions, cash is still the dominant payment mechanism, with cash usage accounting for 59.3 percent of transactions volume in 2021."
Delhi != India. Cash is still very popular in India and many shopkeepers groan when I ask them to show their QR code for payment.
I was just in India, and while I didn't do very many of the transactions that a resident would, I used cash for almost everything (except for supermarkets where I paid with my non-Indian credit card).
It didn't feel at all difficult to get by with cash.
This is a very privileged (and personal) view.
In terms of objective hard data, the percentage of Cash in Circulation to GDP (CIC/GDP) in India is about 12.7% which is about the same as 2005-2015 figures (12.1%), in fact it’s slightly higher.
Essentially the ratio of cash in circulation to the total economy hasn’t changed materially, in fact it’s gone up slightly, measured over a decade.
Note that CIC/GDP did rise to 14.4% in 2021 due to GDP shrinkage post COVID, so it’s fallen from then, but that was a one-off blip.
Why CIC/GDP has not fallen further needs more investigation, but an interesting nugget is that most UPI transactions are very low value, 2/3rds under INR 500 ($6).
It’s also worth considering the impact of internet shutdowns, which can be long and sustained. People living in New Delhi won’t realise this, but many parts of the country have experienced this. Of course UPI now has “offline mode” (Lite) but it’s limited to small-value payments.
Some of the stats above was drawn from here[1], the writer is quite well known in finance journalism circles.
[1] https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/sorry-cash-isn-t-going-...
However, if one private person is selling something to another private person, and they don't know each other, then it's nearly always cash because most people aren't set up to receive digital payments, don't want the hassle of setting it up just for one odd item, and in any case wouldn't trust the technology and companies involved for a large sum so people quite frequently pay for a second-hand car in cash if it's a private sale.
In London. You can do just fine with only a card. Quite a few coffee shops and lunch places only accept cards.
In Nottingham I've not seen a place that only accepts card. The Buses still accept cash
[0] https://www.norges-bank.no/bankplassen/arkiv/2021/husholdnin...
We have rules saying that accepting cash as payment is "mandatory", but the way the rule is written makes it so that it's only mandatory for settling debt. Aka the service is already rendered, and now you need to pay, you can demand to use cash. But when the service isn't rendered yet, a store could claim that they only sell to people using card, for instance.
Paying businesses can also be done by using services called Bankgiro and Plusgiro. These are done directly via your bank account and if done after 10 AM are processed the next business day.
https://www.fdic.gov/analysis/household-survey/index.html
Sure it is. Lots of people do. It's expensive, though.
Germany's broadly a hold-out. Particularly a lot of restaurants, bars and clubs are still cash-only, and some smaller shops definitely prefer cash. Used cars are, interestingly, almost always cash-only. Person to person transactions (i.e. buying something you pick up in person) are almost always cash. Open air markets (produce, flea markets) are always cash.
Electronic payments are becoming more accepted, but it's wise to almost always have some cash on hand.
Cash retains a certain appeal for privacy reasons, and, let's be honest, for businesses avoiding paying their taxes. I'm actually happy cash remains. I don't like the idea of everything I ever buy being recorded. I also don't mind when e.g. going out that I have to consciously get more cash from the ATM when I've blown through my evening budget.
This is in amusing contrast with my trip to Sweden last year, where I pulled out the equivalent of €100 for emergencies, and had trouble getting rid of it in the week and a half there since most places didn't seem to even take cash.
In any case, it's mostly fine to use "cash" to mean "any form of cash", although I guess this case in particular was just barely ambiguous enough for me to be confused.
I prefer using credit card, as it's easy to lose track of how much I'm spending with cash. With card, I have a statement at the end of the month so I can see what I have spent.
Overall, our experience is that it is impossible to be out and about cashless in Germany as there is no telling which bar / beergarten / restaurant / shop only accepts cash.
On the other hand they still prefer paper money, fax machines and paper forms instead of their electronic versions.
Isn't it causing you an uncomfortable feeling, that one company gets all the data about every single thing you buy?
And via this also everywhere you go and when you go there?
So you are a 100% "see through" person to Apple, Google and/or Visa?
That's just your bank. If a global payment processor like Visa would leak data, there probably would be ripples going through most financial system (i.e. whole countries abandoning it, etc).
The name+address+DOB of many people are public. So anybody who gets a glimpse at someones "card" (I guess you mean credit card?) would be able to take over their gmail? That would surprise me.
Do you have a link that confirms this?
I think what I've realised (at least personally), is that we only have a short time to live on this planet, and if life can be made more convenient by offering up my data, allowing me to spend my time doing stuff I actually care about, then I'll do it.
Personally, I'll stick to using the special transport card or cash on public transportation as long as I can. I hate the idea of all my movements being sold to advertisers (or, actually, anyone paying some moneys).
I feel much more comfortable spending money, knowing that;
1. It's the banks money, I can contest any changes on my statement before any money leaves my account. (consider paying for a bathroom renovation and the builder runs off with money or goes bust. The bank takes the hit, not me.)
2. That mass-data helps protect me, such as, abnormal usage can be queried for protentional fraud automatically.
I pay everything through contactless payments through my phone or my debit card barring that.
Some shops don't even take cash anymore because of how few of their customers paid in cash compared to how risky carrying that cash to the bank is. I'm not very happy with that development, but I can understand why they do it.
Some people prefer cash, some people prefer using their debit card (chip + PIN is generally very secure, of course!).
I moved here a few months ago from Ireland where cash was still around but a fairly small percentage of retail transactions, but _very_ common for paying for services. Every tradesperson I used wanted me to pay cash and would charge me more if I didn't (they were committing tax fraud). At one point I was expected to have €3,000 in cash just lying around for a stonemason.
I still don't think I can pay for my groceries with my credit card, but that's clearly indicated at least. I expect the companies refusing the huge processing fees to block credit cards for years to come until the fees go down. That's unfortunate for tourists and immigrants, but mobile payment (bank specific/Apple Pay/Google Wallet) should work over the standard protocol and otherwise there are still ATMs you can use.
Debit or credit cards for businesses. I keep a $20 on me plus a debit card w/ atm access and checking account that reimburses atm fees. Just for those super rare purposes that cash is needed. Although most of the time, I will just not buy from that merchant.
Even street vendors have debit/pin machines (Zettle/SumUp etc), and with mobile phones starting to be able to act as a receiver there would be no reason to use cash at all. I don't like the privacy implications but it's immensely practical.
For sending money to others, sharing bills etc you use Tikkie which generates a link or QR code that anyone can use to pay you via iDeal (debit).
It's interesting to see how it varies in other European countries. In Germany and Belgium you kind of have to carry some cash or you will find yourself unable to pay at many small restaurants and shops.
On the other hand, in Sweden, Spain, UK, etc., I also never touch cash. I have been to Sweden multiple times and I have no idea what Swedish money even looks like.
Central Bank will test digital Ruble asset in the recent time, it's some sort of limited conversion currency, like you get a payment for child care and it's possible to use only for limited products to purchase.
P2P payments - MBWay, has taken over by storam and is the defacto method for transfering smaller amounts of money between peers. For example, rent can be payed to landlords via MBWay, cleaning lady, etc. ATMs support it to.
Almost every business allows payment with cards and the central bank is rumored to want to enforce digital payments for every business in the future.
Personally, I hardly use cash now, heck, I hardly use any cards now. I use my phone for almost all payments.
The govt endgame seems to be forcing most of the cash out of circulation, a ban on cash purchases of more that $10000 (with some exceptions) is already in place.
https://treasury.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-10/28454_fa...
In addition using cash often saves you money. A lot of restaurants will literally give you a discount if you pay with cash.
In general, I simply use a card (phone), and have used over the past N years in Poland, Denmark, and Cyprus.
Sometimes I struggle to pay with cash, if I have to. Cashiers cannot return change, or seem to be disgusted if they have to.
ATMs are getting less attractive. Are in less places, are old. I feel like everything goes to phone/NFC. I have a problem with that. I prefer card & ATM solution.
Exchange rate is actually pretty fine for Revolut, and I am on one of the premium plans, so I shouldn't have high fees in that regard.
I don't know.
My numbers were wrong. It was 50 zlotti and 18 zlotti fee.
A honest question, why?
https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/crypto-is-a-scam.html
Sounds like you have an axe to grind. Lost serious money?
Few years ago most people used cash, so this is recent development.
Of course cash is accepted everywhere, it makes me feel uneasy that somewhere in the world digital just replaced cash. Everyone must accept cash by law, at least in ordinary shops.
Bank cards are not accepted everywhere, but in big cities you can expect to pay with bank card in a majority of cases.
Local bank app is accepted almost everywhere, its adoption is tremendous last years. I've yet to find a place which does not accept it.
Big purchases (cars, houses) are mostly done with cash I think, though I don't have statistics. I, myself, don't trust banks with more than few hundreds of bucks. It's convenient to pay for milk with smartphone, but that's about it.
I find it funny when crypto bros were claiming it was about "banking the unbanked", when it's not a problem at least in a third-world country in Brazil. Banks are obligated to open at least a very basic bank account for basically anyone.
Canada’s got the Interac system owned by the banks which has merchant fees lower than credit cards and also provides an electronic money transfer system (email or sms based) for the public.
But yeah. Bank-to-bank e-transfers through Interac are well-used as well. I pay my rent with it. I pay back my friends with it if we need to split a bill, since there's no Venmo here.