Are you referring to the freedom of speech being restricted for Jihadi mass murderers as "terrifying"???
I suggest taking a look at some of the stories on how the Hamas murdered people and is using its own people as human shields to learn about "terrifying". There should be limits at some point.
I completely disagree with you. However I did share your exact viewpoint at some stage.
At the start of this conflict I was all about revenge against Hamas. I still am. But Israel has taken it too far. They really are showing very little disregard for the innocent people in Palestine. I'm sorry but they do exist.
At some stage, justifying the destruction of thousands of children just to say you're trying to defeat Hamas no longer holds water.
This can never be walked back. What has taken place here will never be forgotten
I agree Hamas should give hostages back and surrender, but tell me what this has to do with a 5 year old child being blown to pieces again? Why should they have to pay for what some "adults" have done?
> At the start of this conflict I was all about revenge against Hamas. I still am. But Israel has taken it too far. They really are showing very little disregard for the innocent people in Palestine. I'm sorry but they do exist.
I have friends within Gaza. And guess what also hostage friends in Gaza.
Don't believe Israel won't bomb the Gazans. But do believe Israel won't bomb the hostages... They don't know where they are so OBVIOUSLY they won't blow up random locations so they won't hurt them... You are falling for Hamas lies.
> I agree Hamas should give hostages back and surrender, but tell me what this has to do with a 5 year old child being blown to pieces again? Why should they have to pay for what some "adults" have done?
Israel never aimed at 5 year olds and specifically warned about the places where it would attack. The Hamas places civilians in these areas so they can sway minds exactly like in this case...
But it's easy to get up on a high horse here... What do you suggest? A ceasefire is like a surrender. They will gather their forces and keep the poor hostages. Every ceasefire in the past was used to get more weapons and fight harder. This has to end for the Gazan people too. They have been under the yoke of the Hamas for too long.
You guys need to stop arguing like this on HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.
We want thoughtful, respectful, curious conversation across differences. I know that's virtually impossible with emotions as strong as with this particular set of differences, but in that case it's best to just refrain from posting.
You guys need to stop arguing like this on HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.
We want thoughtful, respectful, curious conversation across differences. I know that's virtually impossible with emotions as strong as with this particular set of differences, but in that case it's best to just refrain from posting.
But do believe Israel won't bomb the hostages... They don't know where they are so OBVIOUSLY they won't blow up random locations so they won't hurt them... You are falling for Hamas lies.
From the article [1]:
Hamas’s armed wing, al-Qassam brigades, said seven civilian hostages were killed in the strikes on Jabalia, including three foreign passport holders.
For nine months between October 2016 and July 2017, the Iraqi military, with direct support from the United States and NATO allies, fought a bloody battle to liberate the city of Mosul from ISIS. This battle caused thousands to tens of thousands of civilian casualties, many of which were inflicted by Western airstrikes and Iraqi artillery. Concurrently, between November 2016 and October 2017, Kurdish forces in Syria, alongside foreign volunteers and with Western support, fought an offensive in the Raqqa Governate of Syria to remove ISIS and capture their capital city of Raqqa. Thousands more were killed there.
All told, the process of eliminating ISIS’ control over vast swaths of Iraq and Syria led to many thousands of civilian casualties. And yet, everyone seems to agree that between that outcome and the possibility of allowing ISIS to persist, this was the preferable choice between two very bad outcomes. It was a goal that, although briefly and inconsistently, was shared by the US and Russia, all sides of the Syrian Civil War, Turkey, and even Iran.
Just like ISIS, allowing Hamas to persist is no longer a viable possibility. People call for a cease fire, but the last cease fire was broken by Hamas when they committed the bloodiest attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust—itself an atrocity that was only ended through a war that entailed the deaths of probably millions of German civilians at the hands of the Allies.
Innocent people in Gaza do exist. They exist as hostages of Hamas. I don’t mean just the hundreds of hostages they captured on October 7th; I mean that Hamas is holding the entire population of the Gaza Strip hostage. They build underground tunnels to protect their fighters and their weapons, but nothing to protect civilians. Instead they place refugees on top of their underground command centers and weapons caches. Even when they fire their terror rockets into Israel, many of them never make it past the borders of Gaza. And when this happens, they lie, they accuse Israel of committing attacks on the innocent people of Gaza that actually happened at the hands of Hamas and their allies, and they completely fabricate numbers. Any of the numbers you see reported and attributed to a “health ministry” in Gaza are Hamas fabrications; Western media is strangely gullible about this sort of thing for reasons I can’t explain. And so claims about “the destruction of thousands of children” are little more than Hamas propaganda.
Israel has held back their offensives for weeks, provided directed warnings to Gaza residents (at the expense of tipping off Hamas when and where they would strike), and given several days’ warning for Gaza residents to evacuate south of the Wadi Gaza. In response, Hamas blocked the roads and bombed Palestinian refugees traveling towards this safe zone.
The only path to a peaceful future for the people of Gaza and Israel is the elimination of Hamas, just as ISIS had to be eliminated. It is a horrible situation, but it is Hamas who has made it this way and that is why Hamas needs to be destroyed. Just because they have better PR than ISIS did doesn’t change the situation on the ground.
Jabalia isn’t even a refugee camp in the sense that you probably assume. It’s not full of tents and recently displaced people from the war in Gaza; it’s a permanent settlement that was originally established as a refugee camp in 1948. Many of the displaced refugees in the Gaza Strip have heeded Israeli warnings and gone south of the Wadi, though Hamas has physically obstructed and even attacked them for doing so.
At any rate, the target wasn’t the civilian settlement. It was a Hamas headquarters and weapons production facility. Hamas tends to build these things underneath and around civilian population centers.
I read The Guardian article too [1], I just don't really get how it's justified by anything you've said.
If Hamas attacks innocents for leaving and the IDF attacks them for staying, it's kind of a shitty thing to do then to just blow them up right?
Considering Israel has for sure the upper hand, I don't see why they need to be so hasty to just blow the shit out of everything really?
I'm not sure if you have Children but good luck just "fleeing south" with a family. Heavily pregnant wife and 2 kids for example.
Experts on international humanitarian law said asking civilians to leave did not absolve Israel of the responsibility to protect those who chose to stay, when it was launching attacks.
“Civilians that that cannot leave or do not leave are still civilians. And so the same rules apply,” said Helen Duffy, professor of international humanitarian law and human rights at Leiden University in the Netherlands.
“You cannot target civilians. You cannot carry out indiscriminate attacks and you cannot carry out attacks that have disproportionate impact on civilians and civilian objects.”
The IDF isn’t attacking or targeting innocents and it’s not carrying out indiscriminate attacks. It’s targeting Hamas. Hamas has historically been able to use human shields to protect themselves (which is a war crime).
It is a very shitty situation, which is why Israel spent the last 17 years following the exact policy you’re advocating, including refraining from airstrikes when Hamas had enough human shields in place. After October 7, that’s no longer a viable policy. Hamas needs to be removed from power, not just for the security of Israel but also for the good of the Palestinians in Gaza whom Hamas has been murdering and robbing for the past 17 years. Allowing Hamas to protect themselves by using the civilian population of Gaza as human shields only incentivizes that behavior and protects Hamas.
Israel has “the upper hand” only because of the weapons that you’re demanding they don’t use. No urban battle in recent history—not Fallujah, not Mosul where ISIS was defeated—has ever taken place without airstrikes and civilian casualties. There is no way to win the battle for Gaza without any civilian casualties, and that’s a deplorable state of affairs, made worse by the actions of Hamas. Unfortunately, allowing Hamas to stay in power would be even worse.
In February of 1945, the United States and United Kingdom engaged in a multi-day bombing raid of the city of Dresden, which was a major rail hub and industrial center. 25,000 German civilians died in the ensuing firestorm. This particular bombing raid has been a subject of controversy ever since, and there is some justification to that. The Nazis widely publicized falsified death tolls ten times as high, of course, and to this day you will find many a neo-Nazi who will endlessly concern troll you about Dresden while downplaying if not outright denying the Holocaust. Hamas runs the exact same playbook. Don’t let Jew-murdering savages convince you that they are the moral equals of those who are trying to put them down.
This completely misses all the facts. For starters, Israel has tens of thousands of hostages in their jails, some as young as 3, without charge, without trial. Hamas is fighting a murderous occupying force, which not only does not conform to the obligations of an occupying power, but in fact intentionally breaks the laws of occupation in their lust for genocide. Never mind the anti-human restriction of calories into Gaza to keep the population it occupies on the edge of starvation permanently. Never mind the wanton murder of civilians for sport by the IDF and the illegal settlers. Then consider all the checkpoints Palestinians have to go through daily just to move from area to area. After that, consider that Israel had frequently bombed civilian infrastructure and boasted about it, including that hospital they claimed war got by a stray Palestinian rocket. Go find facts
> YOU are a useful idiot for a genocidal entity that is murdering its own people.
You can't attack other users like this, no matter how wrong they are or you feel they are. We have to ban accounts that do it, so please don't do it again.
The term "useful idiot" isn't an attack. It's a term. I wasn't calling him an "idiot". I was saying he was being used by propaganda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
It's an obvious attack, and so is telling people that they're being "used by propaganda". We ban accounts that post like that repeatedly, so please don't do it again.
You need to make your points by focusing on the topic at hand, not swiping at the person you're arguing with.
I suggest you look even further and realize both sides have committed horrific atrocities.
I recently listened to the "Martyrmade" podcast and I couldn't believe it. There was a time when the British and Arabs were being driven out of Palestine using extreme violence too.
Realistically, we should all be working for peace.
> I suggest you look even further and realize both sides have committed horrific atrocities.
Israel has a lot of blame and any other time I would be with you with the pitchforks against Israel.
This isn't one of those days. I suggest you learn the difference between the stuff the Hamas did on October 7th and the worst stuff Israel did in the worst instances... This isn't even remotely on the scale.
Regardless, this isn't about atrocities. This is about stopping a murderous lying organization that is manipulating western media and mindshare using lies.
Israel and the Palestinians did sign a peace agreement. Guess who stopped it by blowing up MANY busses... One guess...
Israel and the Palestinians did sign a peace agreement. Guess who stopped it by blowing up MANY busses... One guess...
I also know that Israel are taking peoples homes and land. it doesn't justify terrorism but it's an act of agression in its own right. Imagine if a group came to the USA and started kicking Americans out? I'd like to see how that goes...
The reality is, innocents and children are now being blown up, en masse. It doesn't matter to me "how" it's done.It matter what and to whom the victims are.
Just because you're not using human shields, doesn't mean dropping a bomb from a hi-tech hundred million dollar fighter jet makes you special or absolves you from responsibility, or makes it ok.
> I also know that Israel are taking peoples homes and land.
No it hasn't. You're talking about 1948 where there was a terrible war. Many Jews lost their homes. Palestinians who left the country couldn't return because of all arab countries were at war with Israel and the borders were closed. The many Jews who ran from Arab countries lost everything too but no one talks about that.
I agree there should be a Palestinian state. Hamas is the #1 reason there isn't one. Israel is a distant #2 here...
> Imagine if a group came to the USA and started kicking Americans out? I'd like to see how that goes...
Funny you should mention that because that group is the Americans...
> Just because you're not using human shields, doesn't mean dropping a bomb from a hi-tech hundred million dollar fighter jet makes you special or absolves you from responsibility, or makes it ok.
It doesn't. That's why Israel tracks every bomb and every firing. There's a special prosecutor from Hauge court right now looking at everything and US involvement also makes sure Israel is taking every precaution. Unlike the Hamas, Israel can be sued for war crimes and is making sure to document every decision so it has a chain back to the intelligence that triggered every bombing.
> Those human shields are innocent people.
100%. Historically, that was the reason Israel didn't deal with the Hamas in the past. That was the wrong decision in retrospect. The Hamas has to be destroyed and there's just no other way to do it. It is terrible.
So this is a bit nuanced. F*ck the settlers. I'm 100% with you on this, they are terrible people. This is specifically a quote related to the "hill people" who break Israeli law to take over land that isn't theirs.
To be clear, it's against Israeli law and even the current government removed them multiple times. Unfortunately, the current terrible government has been pretty bad at that. But even they didn't change Israeli land ownership laws.
Yes, there are regulations and limits that make it harder on Palestinians and there's discrimination. But outright taking a land is illegal and the country can be sued for something like that.
Settlers are protected by the police AND the army when they commit the crimes, they are all equally bad, I can go list hundreds of cases, even thousands, media and videos and more, that will need a whole encyclopedia to lost them all, but I will leave this video only if you are looking for the truth
> Settlers are protected by the police AND the army when they commit the crimes
Again. I won't defend those a*holes. They put soldiers in a problematic spot lots of times. Some soldiers make the mistake of enabling them and yes that's due to bad policy. I'm 100% for a Palestinian state and clearing the occupied territories.
But... Gaza doesn't have settlers anymore. Look what happened there... Furthermore, Israel tried to remove settlements and sign a long term peace accord. The Hamas is the group that blew that up.
If you're against the settlements and for peace then the first stop needs to be with ending the Hamas. Otherwise, any agreement would be sabotaged again.
This is just one small bit. But the Hamas is on a completely different scale here. As I said, in normal cases and when it comes to the west bank I'm 100% with you on the "Israel is bad" bandwagon. But the situation in Gaza is very different and separate.
> I can go list hundreds of cases, even thousands, media and videos and more, that will need a whole encyclopedia to lost them all, but I will leave this video only if you are looking for the truth
These are Israeli driven organizations that are working hard to get the truth out there within and without of Israel. Unfortunately, killing civilians in such a brutal attack sets back all of these efforts.
A few years ago I was having a talk with a friend who lives in a city that gets a lot of missiles. He was talking in a very militant tone about the trauma and panic his kids are suffering as a result of the missiles. He said he doesn't care about a single Palestinian life because of the fear in his kids.
When I talked to him about the Palestinian people and the fathers on the other side who obviously have it worse he calmed himself down and agreed with that viewpoint. Unfortunately, this is a hard discussion to have under fire with bad leadership and at mass scale. In peaceful times the majority of both Israelis and Palestinians are for a two state solution. Israel even offered that to the Palestinian authority on more than one occasion.
This was sabotaged by extremists. To be fair, there are extremists on both sides to varying degrees. But of all these extremists the Hamas has been consistently the worse. It has complete disregard to Palestinian lives and uses them as human shields https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8YYmrgAeqw
Yes, I know the last two are Israeli sources but notice that there are recordings... If you are pro-Palestinian and pro-peace then the Hamas is the biggest roadblock in that direction. The second roadblock is Benjamin Netanyahu who I hope would end up in prison. But the Hamas is still well ahead as we wouldn't have Netanyahu in power without their constant attacks.
And I suggest taking a look at Israel dropping bombs on a refugee camp (Jabalia refugee camp) they knew was overflowing with women and children.
And I also suggest meditating on the fact that Israel's war on Gaza is the first war in modern history where women and children comprise the vast majority of the victims.
According to CBC radio, more children have been killed in Gaza in the past 3 weeks than in all conflicts since 2019. ( Link: https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7012927 )
Perhaps it's time to start viewing both Hamas and the Government of Israel as Terrorist Organizations, since both of them now wholeheartedly engage in intentionally attacking civilian populations.
No, but if someone is bombing you and you move civilians literally into the area to be bombed, to accuse the other side of bombing civilians ...
Then you're at fault. Not whoever dropped the bomb.
In case there's any doubt what I mean: Hamas is moving Palestinian civilians (in addition to killing them outright) at gunpoint into areas Israel has announced they'll bomb. That's as bad as throwing them off buildings, shooting them, and other methods they use, and as it makes it impossible for Israel to avoid civilians, it does remove the blame from Israel.
Warped logic. The person dropping the bomb is always at fault. They know civilians are there.
And please post evidence of your claim they are moving civilians in intentionally. Turns out those buildings being blown up are also people’s houses and they don’t want to leave.
I tell you some anecdata. I dated an Israeli girl once. She was totally pro-peace, organizing protests against her government policy re. Gaza and so on. At some point she dated an Israeli soldier who told her a few stories, so it's a third-hand account and take it with a grain of salt. But there were several cases when Hamas was firing from a specific building, then the Israeli sent their forces there and discovered the whole roof of that building is filled with Palestinian women and children so their aircraft had to fly back. They had been doing this for years:
If you read the Wikipedia it specifically says that there is no evidence. The human shield claim is so the IOF can bomb civilian areas with no responsibility for their deaths.
Also, as for your story, I don’t believe them. More likely that soldier killed civilians knowingly and then made up the story after.
However, the gist of "lack of evidence" is found in this quote:
> The United Nations Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict ("UNFFMG") that took place in 2008–2009 accepted the possibility that Hamas launched mortar attacks from the vicinity of a school and from residential homes, sometimes by the threat of force against residents. The report was unable to find specific evidence that civilians whose homes were used for rocket launches were "forced to remain in their houses" but the report repeatedly noted that Gaza residents were "reluctant" to discuss the conduct of Palestinian armed forces due to fear of reprisals.
So yes, if you are going to look for Palestinians who will testify in court that the were forced to remain in a given place or enable to escape for some time, you will never find such a person.
Sure. You can always discount the multiple sources of evidence that you're given. You can ignore the well published beliefs of the Hamas which specifically state that "innocent Muslims" killed in the Jihad are rewarded in the afterlife.
You can ignore all of those things. You can ignore the fact that they placed their headquarters under a hospital or that they fire rockets next to another hospital (and hit it by mistake then blamed Israel).
Just as long as it fits the narrative of Israel is lying and the Hamas is, truthful???
What level of evidence do you need? There's motive, there's justification, there's first person testimony... What do you think, that the people who send suicide bombers into busses with children are too nice???
Confirmation bias is a problematic thing. For instance, I don't want to believe that the Hamas is truthful about the number of deaths in Gaza. But I don't KNOW that they are lying. I have no source of that other than their history. It's also very clear that they don't divide combatants from civilians which is the number I want to know. But the difference is my belief doesn't factor into this. I just don't know. That isn't evidence either.
You repeat Israeli and us propaganda about Hamas intentions. Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.
You repeat the lie that the rocket hit the hospital (no evidence of this and the evidence points to an Israeli bomb or shell) You also repeat the lie that there is a base under the hospital.
You are starting from the assumption Israel is good and Hamas is bad, then working backwards to justify that. You blindly believe US and Israeli governments, when they have lied and continue to lie to the public.
What motive and justification are you even talking about? Why would they even keep using human shields if they know Israel is just going to kill them anyway? You think Hamas wants their own people to die for funsies? Or maybe it’s that Israel is a genocidal state that needs to justify globally why it’s massacring civilians?
Also amusing you post that you can’t know about the civilian deaths. The UN and other human rights groups have confirmed the numbers and said they are probably a low estimate. How is that not evidence for you?
Divide civilians from combatants? How many of the 1400 Israelis killed on the 7th were IDF btw?
But yeah, you’re right about confirmation bias being a thing.
> All the sources just happen to be Israeli. Weird.
Mosab Hassan Yousef is very much not an Israeli. He has family still in Gaza which might not talk to him but he still loves them (my spouse knows him personally).
> You repeat Israeli and us propaganda about Hamas intentions.
Their intentions are clear from their documents. They are clear from their actions. I saw the busses they blew up, I spoke to people who were hiding in a safe room while half their peaceful village was wiped out. These are people who would fly kites with Gazan's to promote peaceful co-existence. Not settlers.
Israel has free media. A lot of the bad stuff you hear about Israels action comes from Israeli media and Israelis. There is propaganda, but with free press it's very hard to keep it going.
> Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.
Let's start by saying that the current government is awful and terrible. Not as bad as the Hamas but definitely should be in jail. They got elected due to a broken electoral system and Benjamin Netanyahu's manipulation of the political system to get away from his criminal trials.
> Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.
I didn't hear Likud members specifically say "Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth" but I did hear coalition members say that and they are indeed abhorrent and despicable. Fortunately, the army is an independent branch. It obeys the law and international law. Soldiers know they are liable, although indeed there are some terrible cases where they stray, but there are good cases where they are caught.
I'm not saying Israel is the "good guy" here. It's a bad situation. But the Hamas is by far more terrible to all sides. It is currently a choice, either the Hamas or Israel. By the Hamas's own words, they will do this again: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1y31101m6
Israel literally has no choice here. I hope this war will also result in the collapse of the Likud government and maybe a second chance for peace without the interference of Netanyahu or the Hamas.
> You are starting from the assumption Israel is good and Hamas is bad, then working backwards to justify that. You blindly believe US and Israeli governments, when they have lied and continue to lie to the public.
Fair. I do start from that point. I don't think I blindly believe them though. The evidence of the Hamas murdering civilians is pretty evidence by the three busses blown up on the street where I used to live in the 90s... Or the bartender I knew who was burned to an inch of death in a cafe explosion. These aren't good people.
OTOH I spent a lot of time with Palestinians who are great people. Moderate, peaceful people. I know them and I know they are not the Hamas. They are its victims.
> Why would they even keep using human shields if they know Israel is just going to kill them anyway?
Israel tries not to kill them so it actually works. See the hospital case. Israel knows that the headquarters are there and yet, not a single bomb.
But when Israel still hits even one of them, then it makes sense to infuriate and raise more terrorists. To reduce the legitimacy of Israel and the victim goes to heaven... It's a win for them regardless of what Israel does.
> You think Hamas wants their own people to die for funsies?
I suggest googling martyrdom and the Muslim Brotherhood which was the source of the Hamas. Their extre...
But there is no need to repeat any propaganda. It's enough to look at their actions: they attacked innocent girsl dancing peacefully during a music festival and killed them (I just hope it was the only thing they did). Nobody is questioning that. It has nothing to do with propaganda, it's reality.
> Warped logic. The person dropping the bomb is always at fault.
Not under international law. If you hide among civilians, using them as human shields, any civilian deaths or injuries are deemed to be war crimes committed by you, not the opposing force.
How was I wrong when I wasn’t even talking about international law? I was saying people who drop bombs in cities are at fault for civilian deaths. I don’t care what international law says.
It's a bit more nuanced in Japan I suspect. Covering the Hibakusha, as well as that firebombing over 2 nights in Tokyo having more casualties than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.
> And I suggest taking a look at Israel dropping bombs on a refugee camp (Jabalia refugee camp) they knew was overflowing with women and children.
Israel specifically pointed at the area where they will be bombing to clear civilians. They used cell phone tracking to make sure that their message was getting through and only then conducted bombing. This seriously hindered the impact of the bombing since it lets the terrorists escape.
Notice that these "facts" about civilians dying are given by the Hamas who block escape roads for their own people and disallow them from going into their tunnels for safety. The Hamas wants civilian casualties to raise the next generation of terrorists and to reduce the legitimacy of Israel.
> And I also suggest meditating on the fact that Israel's war on Gaza is the first war in modern history where women and children comprise the vast majority of the victims.
According to the Hamas which has lied repeatedly about everything and specifically prevented people from leaving.
> Kind of makes you wonder who the 'terrorists' are.
No it doesn't. The difference is stark.
The Hamas his holding children hostage. It opened this attack by burning civilians alive and shooting children. It was during a time when Israel was reducing pressure on Gaza so 100% unprovoked and against civilians. They knew retaliation would happen and are keeping hostages so the retaliation will happen.
They block their own people from the tunnels so they will die in the crossfire.
Israel might make mistakes that harm civilians (a lot fewer than reported) but the hamas left Israel no choice. Imagine your children held in a terrorist tunnel, Israel is REMARKABLY easy on them all things considered.
Yeah, the good ol' "I don't agree with the facts, so they must be damn lies" defense.
Look, I used to be as Pro-Israeli as they come. I fully endorse the right of any nation to defend itself when attacked by terrorists ( and yes Hamas is a terrorist group on par with Al-Qaeda).
But it's one thing to act against terrorists, and it's another thing entirely to indiscriminately kill children for crying out loud. Children!
I supported Israel, but I have a conscience, as do the vast majority of human beings. At this point, there's no difference between Hamas and the Govt of Israel.
In the refugee camp that was bombed, children were trying to drag the corpses of other children they had been playing with together in a playground. That's heartbreaking, it's horrifying.
And to respond to your 'fake statistics' claim, the UN and Aid Agencies have repeatedly certified that the death numbers released are accurate, with some insisting they're actually undercounts, which means even more innocent people have been killed by the Israeli Government's indiscriminate bombing than has been reported.
Your comment was dead, so I vouched for it. I don't agree with all of it, you say for example that there is "no difference between Hamas and the Govt of Israel" (which is a common way off putting things, but there is always a difference between two discernible things). You could have phrased that better in order to keep a civil tone IMO. But Israel is definitely stepping across a line here, this response is not "proportionate" as required by the Geneva convention, which I think is the gist of the comment.
I usually just lurk on HN without commenting. But it's just that it was difficult to read someone actually defending & rationalising the intentional murder of children. I mean I had to say something.
Even if it's only online, one does have to speak up.
Keeping quiet and going about one's life, while atrocities are being committed (even if they're being committed by the Govt of a country one previously had some admiration for), makes one a silent accomplice to those commiting the said atrocities.
> But Israel is definitely stepping across a line here, this response is not "proportionate" as required by the Geneva convention
This is not actually how the Geneva Conventions work. In particular, the Geneva Conventions do not allow a belligerent to intentionally use human shields in order to turn a legitimate military target into an illegal target. Furthermore, the so called rule of "proportionality" does not actually use the term "proportionate". Instead, the criteria is whether the "expected" civilian casualties are "excessive" "in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated". There's a good thread here breaking this down: https://twitter.com/Aizenberg55/status/1719729794043052234
> the Geneva Conventions do not allow a belligerent to intentionally use human shields
The proportionality rule ultimately requires a judgement call, like the thread you provided states. I understand that your call might be different than mine, but to me the evidence is clear: Israel is not paying appropriate heed to Article 57 §1: "In the conduct of military operations, constant care shall be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects."
You seem to think the massive toll on civilians and civilian objects (houses) is merely because Hamas is using them as shields, to me this tactic of Hamas' is now mainly an excuse used by IDF to terrorize to the point of obliteration a perceived hateful albeit civilian population, a strategy that has strong support in Israel after Hamas heinous attacks on October 7.
We can debate the finer points of this ad nauseam, but that would be missing the greater picture, which is that the Israeli army is now doing exactly what Hamas expected them to do. What we need now is to tell the Israelis to stop and reconsider, not provide them with further excuses for genocidal policies. The current trajectory is not in Israel's long term interests, nor those of the region or indeed the world.
There’s no evidence that Israel is targeting the civilian population of Gaza. If they were, they wouldn’t have warned them to evacuate south of the Wadi over a week ago.
Hamas routinely places military targets such as rocket launch sites, headquarters, and weapons productions centers directly alongside and underneath civilian population centers. They do this to manipulate gullible people like you and they are succeeding. Israel is right not to care about such foolish opinions when Hamas has vowed to repeat the massacres of October 7 repeatedly as long as they exist. They are not the ones pursuing a genocidal policy.
I understand. Instead of civil discourse you prefer to have ad hominem laden discussions about your insults and strawmen? A tactic commonly used in lieu of sound arguments as you may be aware. But granted, this issue is "too close to home" for some people, a level-headed discussion can be too much to ask for.
You’re the one throwing around words like “genocide” and you’re going to complain and ignore my perfectly sound arguments because I said “gullible” and “foolish”? Give me a break. It’s a fact that Hamas deliberately uses human shields by placing their headquarters, rocket launch sites, and weapons productions facilities around and underneath civilian population centers. It’s also a fact that it’s these facilities, not the civilian population, that Israel has consistently targeted. You can’t address these facts so you get upset that I’m characterizing your opinions as “foolish”.
Those casualty numbers all originate from the “Gaza Health Ministry”, which is in reality just Hamas. They are not reliable and shouldn’t be taken at face value.
During the 2002 Battle of Jenin, Palestinians claimed hundreds to thousands of civilian casualties, including claims of mass graves. Afterwards, the total number of Palestinian casualties turned out to be 52 to 53, most of whom were militants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin_(2002)
As for Jabalia, many of the civilian casualties are attributed to “sinkholes” (i.e. the Hamas tunnel network). There were also warnings of “the possibility of secondary explosions due to the presence of munitions in the area” (https://x.com/gaza_report/status/1719363355360518250), along with reports of “the loss of Jabaliya brigade commander Ibrahim Biari and several other fighters when their underground operations center collapsed after being hit by an Israeli air strike.”
Israel issued a warning weeks ago that the safest part of Gaza would the southern half of the strip, south of the Wadi Gaza. Why wouldn’t Hamas place refugees there instead of on top of their underground command centers where they were storing munitions?
> Kind of makes you wonder who the 'terrorists' are.
On October 7th, Hamas fighters entered Israel to rape and murder over 1,400 people in their homes, in the streets, and at a music festival. Over 200 were taken hostage. Do you believe this was a legitimate act of resistance?
> Those casualty numbers all originate from the “Gaza Health Ministry”
The white house did eventually confirm the casualties (1), not to mention in previous wars there were no major discrepancies and were credible and believed by the white house and media too, in fact, UN believes that the numbers are actually higher but still under the rubble
> Some U.N. officials, however, say the real number of casualties is likely significantly higher because the health ministry’s tally doesn’t include people still under the rubble. (2)
> The white house did eventually confirm the casualties
The White House confirmed that civilian casualties are taking place, but civilian casualties take place in every armed conflict.
> not to mention in previous wars there were no major discrepancies
False; did you read the part of my comment addressing Jenin? Even in this conflict, the blast at the hospital, Hamas claimed 500 deaths when they blamed it on Israel. It turned out that not only did Israel not bomb the hospital (rather, it was hit by a rocket fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad), but the total number of deaths was, depending on which source you believe, anywhere between 1/10 and 1/2 as many as Hamas had originally claimed.
> The White House confirmed that civilian casualties are taking place, but civilian casualties take place in every armed conflict.
They did confirm the numbers, they are independently audited by the UN team too, always been the case, even Senators now are confirming the numbers (1), additionally, if US “really” wanted to confirm the numbers, they can send a team there to confirm these numbers by themselves, but we all know it’s just a dirty politics to hijack the credibility of Palestinians officials’ statements to allow further crimes goes undetected.
> False; did you read the part of my comment addressing Jenin?
I did, and has nothing to do with this current issue so it’s irrelevant, since they fall in different administrations (one in Gaza other in West bank)
> It turned out that not only did Israel not bomb the hospital (rather, it was hit by a rocket fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad)
That’s also another lie, it wasn’t a misfire as noted by many analysts who also analyzed the sound of that hit, this video probably provides the best timeline (2)
Yes because CNN is more credible these days?! That being said, it isn’t citing but rather that account made the available information in a simple short timeline to follow easily, and references are in the video and in the thread too, however, you can find similar conclusions by other analysts, this ex IDF pilot who worked as a squad commander goes in details how the official report is false, https://twitter.com/talhagin/status/1715168880849465506
> suggest taking a look at some of the stories on how the Hamas murdered
You mean the 40 beheaded babies or the one in the oven? As so far all these “stories” turned out to be an utter lie.
On the other hand, did you know Tantura (1) Deir Yassin (2) where confirmed cases of killing and raping of minors -per the vets who served that time? and around 1mill Palestinians were forced to leave their houses and homeland back in 1948, and most of them ended up where? in Gaza!, that also has their refugee camp bombed yesterday.. Gaza since 2005 is an open air prison, even years ago they tried to march peacefully to the borders to show the world that there are people still in there dying slowly (3), so drop that victim tone because a “victim” cannot cut water/electricity/internet/food/logistics instantly and proceed to drop 18,000 tons of bombs that’s equivalent to 1.5 times the force of bomb of Hiroshima. Israel is who created that resistance by occupying the land and violating all international laws, most of these resistance fighters are orphans who have their parents killed in previous bombing, and the west bank is under a strict martial law that will put you behind the bars for likes on social media, trying to isolate what happened in Oct/7th as the previous 75years were two loving peaceful “sovereign” nations next to each other before one attacked is pure rhetoric propaganda, only fools will believe it.
> You mean the 40 beheaded babies or the one in the oven? As so far all these “stories” turned out to be an utter lie.
No. Just those that were true, they're enough. I know a few people personally including a family who survived. Most of their village is dead or in Gaza.
> On the other hand, did you know Tantura Deir Yassin.
Sure. There were several such cases on both sides.
I don't want to defend the indefensible. But don't pretend that it was one sided... There were awful atrocities in 1948 on both sides. To be fair, the IDF or Israel didn't really exist yet. There was no real rule book. People just came off the boat from the holocaust to fight for their lives against armies of several different countries intent on destroying them.
But lets talk about the positive sides. The Arabs that did stay in Israel got full citizenship and rights. I can't say there's no discrimination but they do have a supreme court justice and were part of the last government formed in Israel.
> Gaza since 2005 is an open air prison
I'm with you on that. But the blame for that is on the Hamas. Israel has repeatedly tried to lift restrictions on Gaza. Just 4 weeks ago there were 17,000 Gazans in Israeli borders. Some of them illegally and Israel turned a blind eye as part of a misconception that the Hamas "calmed down".
Israel removed settlements from Gaza and wants nothing more than to be out of it. The last thing Israel wants to do is invade Gaza. Notice that even with all the "restrictions" missiles etc. all went through freely. Hamas terrorists were able to travel freely to Iran where they trained in modern warfare. The narrative of a blockade on Gaza is inaccurate at best.
> years ago they tried to march peacefully to the borders to show the world that there are people still in there dying slowly
One of the families murdered on October 7th was a family that held annual kite flying events across the fence for solidarity with the children of Gaza.
OTOH the Hamas used such marches on the fence to plant the bombs they would use to take it down on October 7th...
I know quite a few Gazans and I know the majority of them want peace. As I said, the war isn't against the people of Gaza. They are the poor souls stuck in the middle. Unfortunately, the Hamas is unwilling to compromise or change.
> drop that victim tone
I'm not using a victim tone. That's projection. I'm using a blame tone. The fault is the Hamas's fault only... They left no choice to Israel. They intentionally chose to do that knowing full well that innocent lives will be hurt. They chose to increase the number of Palestinian victims instead of saving innocent lives.
Israel doesn't have a choice here.
> 18,000 tons of bombs that’s equivalent to 1.5 times the force of bomb of Hiroshima
And yet Gaza stands. Israel has literal atomic bombs yet they chose weapons that would allow refined targeting to minimize the impact on civilians. It's still impossible. The cancer of Hamas is embedded deep into Gaza. The fact that so much was bombed and even with the Hamas's inflated numbers the casualties are so low, shows how careful Israel has been.
> Israel is who created that resistance by occupying the land and violating all international laws
That sentence is unclear but Israel doesn't violate international law. On the contrary it abuses it legally.
The occupation is terrible, I'm with you on that. But it is legal. When soldiers are caught violating the law, they are jailed. Yes, I don't want to defend Israeli occupation because obviously I don't believe in that. But there's BAD and there's ridiculously WORSE. The Hamas is worse for everyone involved, Palestinians most of all.
> most of these resistance fighters are orphans who have their parents killed in previous bombing
The Hamas isn't a resistance movement. It's a Jihadi movement. The PLO is a resistance movement. The difference is th...
That is such first world BS. The poor people in Gaza are being used as propaganda by the people who put them in the line of fire. And you're saying they should be free to keep doing that. It's important to protect the basic rights of people, but terrorists lose some of these rights. Literal freedom should be lost so losing freedom of speech while they aren't in custody... Not a problem IMO.
This isn't the "people we hate". It's people who abuse the system by spreading hate and misinformation.
> Some of the channels amassed hundreds of thousands of subscribers and sent out graphic images and videos of the war, in addition to calls to action from Hamas members.
I’ve seen some channels that have these same graphic depictions, but instead have a tone of “look at the atrocities being committed, Hamas must be held accountable .”
Telegram seems to be a replacement for subreddits that got banned in the 2010s (and now even liveleak is gone).
Isn’t this typical though? I thought telegram blocked terrorist channels years ago.
Hamas is a terrorist org, so I would expect any communication they use that isn’t purely end to end encrypted will get shut down.
I’m typically a pretty free speech person. But my idea for limiting is violence and crimes. Or at least “real” crimes (I don’t care about drug trade but think that planning terrorism or domestic violence or whatnot should be blocked based on their link to crime).
Regardless of your position, this is a clear example of narrative control, you might cheer it now if it fits yours, but it won’t be the case all the time, and I always use COVID as a prime example and how it was taboo for doctors to even question anything about it.
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[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 156 ms ] threadI suggest taking a look at some of the stories on how the Hamas murdered people and is using its own people as human shields to learn about "terrifying". There should be limits at some point.
At the start of this conflict I was all about revenge against Hamas. I still am. But Israel has taken it too far. They really are showing very little disregard for the innocent people in Palestine. I'm sorry but they do exist.
At some stage, justifying the destruction of thousands of children just to say you're trying to defeat Hamas no longer holds water.
This can never be walked back. What has taken place here will never be forgotten
I agree Hamas should give hostages back and surrender, but tell me what this has to do with a 5 year old child being blown to pieces again? Why should they have to pay for what some "adults" have done?
I have friends within Gaza. And guess what also hostage friends in Gaza.
Don't believe Israel won't bomb the Gazans. But do believe Israel won't bomb the hostages... They don't know where they are so OBVIOUSLY they won't blow up random locations so they won't hurt them... You are falling for Hamas lies.
> I agree Hamas should give hostages back and surrender, but tell me what this has to do with a 5 year old child being blown to pieces again? Why should they have to pay for what some "adults" have done?
Israel never aimed at 5 year olds and specifically warned about the places where it would attack. The Hamas places civilians in these areas so they can sway minds exactly like in this case...
But it's easy to get up on a high horse here... What do you suggest? A ceasefire is like a surrender. They will gather their forces and keep the poor hostages. Every ceasefire in the past was used to get more weapons and fight harder. This has to end for the Gazan people too. They have been under the yoke of the Hamas for too long.
We want thoughtful, respectful, curious conversation across differences. I know that's virtually impossible with emotions as strong as with this particular set of differences, but in that case it's best to just refrain from posting.
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
We want thoughtful, respectful, curious conversation across differences. I know that's virtually impossible with emotions as strong as with this particular set of differences, but in that case it's best to just refrain from posting.
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
From the article [1]:
Hamas’s armed wing, al-Qassam brigades, said seven civilian hostages were killed in the strikes on Jabalia, including three foreign passport holders.
So they did blow up seven hostages.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/01/jabalia-camp-a...
All told, the process of eliminating ISIS’ control over vast swaths of Iraq and Syria led to many thousands of civilian casualties. And yet, everyone seems to agree that between that outcome and the possibility of allowing ISIS to persist, this was the preferable choice between two very bad outcomes. It was a goal that, although briefly and inconsistently, was shared by the US and Russia, all sides of the Syrian Civil War, Turkey, and even Iran.
Just like ISIS, allowing Hamas to persist is no longer a viable possibility. People call for a cease fire, but the last cease fire was broken by Hamas when they committed the bloodiest attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust—itself an atrocity that was only ended through a war that entailed the deaths of probably millions of German civilians at the hands of the Allies.
Innocent people in Gaza do exist. They exist as hostages of Hamas. I don’t mean just the hundreds of hostages they captured on October 7th; I mean that Hamas is holding the entire population of the Gaza Strip hostage. They build underground tunnels to protect their fighters and their weapons, but nothing to protect civilians. Instead they place refugees on top of their underground command centers and weapons caches. Even when they fire their terror rockets into Israel, many of them never make it past the borders of Gaza. And when this happens, they lie, they accuse Israel of committing attacks on the innocent people of Gaza that actually happened at the hands of Hamas and their allies, and they completely fabricate numbers. Any of the numbers you see reported and attributed to a “health ministry” in Gaza are Hamas fabrications; Western media is strangely gullible about this sort of thing for reasons I can’t explain. And so claims about “the destruction of thousands of children” are little more than Hamas propaganda.
Israel has held back their offensives for weeks, provided directed warnings to Gaza residents (at the expense of tipping off Hamas when and where they would strike), and given several days’ warning for Gaza residents to evacuate south of the Wadi Gaza. In response, Hamas blocked the roads and bombed Palestinian refugees traveling towards this safe zone.
The only path to a peaceful future for the people of Gaza and Israel is the elimination of Hamas, just as ISIS had to be eliminated. It is a horrible situation, but it is Hamas who has made it this way and that is why Hamas needs to be destroyed. Just because they have better PR than ISIS did doesn’t change the situation on the ground.
I mean considering Israel has had the upper hand and controls access to basic services, I can't imagine there aren't other options.
When you kill that many innocent people who live next door to you, you can never just "destroy hamas" unless you basically destroy all those people.
It's not a good situation.
At any rate, the target wasn’t the civilian settlement. It was a Hamas headquarters and weapons production facility. Hamas tends to build these things underneath and around civilian population centers.
If Hamas attacks innocents for leaving and the IDF attacks them for staying, it's kind of a shitty thing to do then to just blow them up right?
Considering Israel has for sure the upper hand, I don't see why they need to be so hasty to just blow the shit out of everything really?
I'm not sure if you have Children but good luck just "fleeing south" with a family. Heavily pregnant wife and 2 kids for example.
Experts on international humanitarian law said asking civilians to leave did not absolve Israel of the responsibility to protect those who chose to stay, when it was launching attacks.
“Civilians that that cannot leave or do not leave are still civilians. And so the same rules apply,” said Helen Duffy, professor of international humanitarian law and human rights at Leiden University in the Netherlands.
“You cannot target civilians. You cannot carry out indiscriminate attacks and you cannot carry out attacks that have disproportionate impact on civilians and civilian objects.”
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/01/jabalia-camp-a...
It is a very shitty situation, which is why Israel spent the last 17 years following the exact policy you’re advocating, including refraining from airstrikes when Hamas had enough human shields in place. After October 7, that’s no longer a viable policy. Hamas needs to be removed from power, not just for the security of Israel but also for the good of the Palestinians in Gaza whom Hamas has been murdering and robbing for the past 17 years. Allowing Hamas to protect themselves by using the civilian population of Gaza as human shields only incentivizes that behavior and protects Hamas.
Israel has “the upper hand” only because of the weapons that you’re demanding they don’t use. No urban battle in recent history—not Fallujah, not Mosul where ISIS was defeated—has ever taken place without airstrikes and civilian casualties. There is no way to win the battle for Gaza without any civilian casualties, and that’s a deplorable state of affairs, made worse by the actions of Hamas. Unfortunately, allowing Hamas to stay in power would be even worse.
In February of 1945, the United States and United Kingdom engaged in a multi-day bombing raid of the city of Dresden, which was a major rail hub and industrial center. 25,000 German civilians died in the ensuing firestorm. This particular bombing raid has been a subject of controversy ever since, and there is some justification to that. The Nazis widely publicized falsified death tolls ten times as high, of course, and to this day you will find many a neo-Nazi who will endlessly concern troll you about Dresden while downplaying if not outright denying the Holocaust. Hamas runs the exact same playbook. Don’t let Jew-murdering savages convince you that they are the moral equals of those who are trying to put them down.
You can't attack other users like this, no matter how wrong they are or you feel they are. We have to ban accounts that do it, so please don't do it again.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
You need to make your points by focusing on the topic at hand, not swiping at the person you're arguing with.
I recently listened to the "Martyrmade" podcast and I couldn't believe it. There was a time when the British and Arabs were being driven out of Palestine using extreme violence too.
Realistically, we should all be working for peace.
Israel has a lot of blame and any other time I would be with you with the pitchforks against Israel.
This isn't one of those days. I suggest you learn the difference between the stuff the Hamas did on October 7th and the worst stuff Israel did in the worst instances... This isn't even remotely on the scale.
Regardless, this isn't about atrocities. This is about stopping a murderous lying organization that is manipulating western media and mindshare using lies.
Israel and the Palestinians did sign a peace agreement. Guess who stopped it by blowing up MANY busses... One guess...
I also know that Israel are taking peoples homes and land. it doesn't justify terrorism but it's an act of agression in its own right. Imagine if a group came to the USA and started kicking Americans out? I'd like to see how that goes...
The reality is, innocents and children are now being blown up, en masse. It doesn't matter to me "how" it's done.It matter what and to whom the victims are.
Just because you're not using human shields, doesn't mean dropping a bomb from a hi-tech hundred million dollar fighter jet makes you special or absolves you from responsibility, or makes it ok.
Those human shields are innocent people.
No it hasn't. You're talking about 1948 where there was a terrible war. Many Jews lost their homes. Palestinians who left the country couldn't return because of all arab countries were at war with Israel and the borders were closed. The many Jews who ran from Arab countries lost everything too but no one talks about that.
I agree there should be a Palestinian state. Hamas is the #1 reason there isn't one. Israel is a distant #2 here...
> Imagine if a group came to the USA and started kicking Americans out? I'd like to see how that goes...
Funny you should mention that because that group is the Americans...
> Just because you're not using human shields, doesn't mean dropping a bomb from a hi-tech hundred million dollar fighter jet makes you special or absolves you from responsibility, or makes it ok.
It doesn't. That's why Israel tracks every bomb and every firing. There's a special prosecutor from Hauge court right now looking at everything and US involvement also makes sure Israel is taking every precaution. Unlike the Hamas, Israel can be sued for war crimes and is making sure to document every decision so it has a chain back to the intelligence that triggered every bombing.
> Those human shields are innocent people.
100%. Historically, that was the reason Israel didn't deal with the Hamas in the past. That was the wrong decision in retrospect. The Hamas has to be destroyed and there's just no other way to do it. It is terrible.
To be clear, it's against Israeli law and even the current government removed them multiple times. Unfortunately, the current terrible government has been pretty bad at that. But even they didn't change Israeli land ownership laws.
Yes, there are regulations and limits that make it harder on Palestinians and there's discrimination. But outright taking a land is illegal and the country can be sued for something like that.
https://twitter.com/Dunian98/status/1719855293855637893 Or https://files.catbox.moe/i1khdh.mp4
Again. I won't defend those a*holes. They put soldiers in a problematic spot lots of times. Some soldiers make the mistake of enabling them and yes that's due to bad policy. I'm 100% for a Palestinian state and clearing the occupied territories.
But... Gaza doesn't have settlers anymore. Look what happened there... Furthermore, Israel tried to remove settlements and sign a long term peace accord. The Hamas is the group that blew that up.
If you're against the settlements and for peace then the first stop needs to be with ending the Hamas. Otherwise, any agreement would be sabotaged again.
> they are all equally bad
Chopping off the hand of an 8 year old girl isn't on the same scale: https://x.com/EylonALevy/status/1719667140209316316?s=20
This is just one small bit. But the Hamas is on a completely different scale here. As I said, in normal cases and when it comes to the west bank I'm 100% with you on the "Israel is bad" bandwagon. But the situation in Gaza is very different and separate.
> I can go list hundreds of cases, even thousands, media and videos and more, that will need a whole encyclopedia to lost them all, but I will leave this video only if you are looking for the truth
You know who listed these cases?
Israeli's did. Including soldiers see:
https://www.btselem.org/
https://www.ahimlaneshek.org/
These are Israeli driven organizations that are working hard to get the truth out there within and without of Israel. Unfortunately, killing civilians in such a brutal attack sets back all of these efforts.
A few years ago I was having a talk with a friend who lives in a city that gets a lot of missiles. He was talking in a very militant tone about the trauma and panic his kids are suffering as a result of the missiles. He said he doesn't care about a single Palestinian life because of the fear in his kids.
When I talked to him about the Palestinian people and the fathers on the other side who obviously have it worse he calmed himself down and agreed with that viewpoint. Unfortunately, this is a hard discussion to have under fire with bad leadership and at mass scale. In peaceful times the majority of both Israelis and Palestinians are for a two state solution. Israel even offered that to the Palestinian authority on more than one occasion.
This was sabotaged by extremists. To be fair, there are extremists on both sides to varying degrees. But of all these extremists the Hamas has been consistently the worse. It has complete disregard to Palestinian lives and uses them as human shields https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8YYmrgAeqw
It has specifically stated that it is interested in repeating October 7th: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1y31101m6
They are stealing humanitarian aid: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/hjhcwfl7p
Yes, I know the last two are Israeli sources but notice that there are recordings... If you are pro-Palestinian and pro-peace then the Hamas is the biggest roadblock in that direction. The second roadblock is Benjamin Netanyahu who I hope would end up in prison. But the Hamas is still well ahead as we wouldn't have Netanyahu in power without their constant attacks.
And I also suggest meditating on the fact that Israel's war on Gaza is the first war in modern history where women and children comprise the vast majority of the victims.
According to CBC radio, more children have been killed in Gaza in the past 3 weeks than in all conflicts since 2019. ( Link: https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7012927 )
Perhaps it's time to start viewing both Hamas and the Government of Israel as Terrorist Organizations, since both of them now wholeheartedly engage in intentionally attacking civilian populations.
Then you're at fault. Not whoever dropped the bomb.
In case there's any doubt what I mean: Hamas is moving Palestinian civilians (in addition to killing them outright) at gunpoint into areas Israel has announced they'll bomb. That's as bad as throwing them off buildings, shooting them, and other methods they use, and as it makes it impossible for Israel to avoid civilians, it does remove the blame from Israel.
And please post evidence of your claim they are moving civilians in intentionally. Turns out those buildings being blown up are also people’s houses and they don’t want to leave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#Israeli%E2%80%93P...
Also, as for your story, I don’t believe them. More likely that soldier killed civilians knowingly and then made up the story after.
There is a lot of it, but of course you can say it's all fabricated, e.g. these examples: https://web.archive.org/web/20111018011032/http://www.mfa.go...
However, the gist of "lack of evidence" is found in this quote:
> The United Nations Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict ("UNFFMG") that took place in 2008–2009 accepted the possibility that Hamas launched mortar attacks from the vicinity of a school and from residential homes, sometimes by the threat of force against residents. The report was unable to find specific evidence that civilians whose homes were used for rocket launches were "forced to remain in their houses" but the report repeatedly noted that Gaza residents were "reluctant" to discuss the conduct of Palestinian armed forces due to fear of reprisals.
So yes, if you are going to look for Palestinians who will testify in court that the were forced to remain in a given place or enable to escape for some time, you will never find such a person.
Funny you mention that report though, it also states that Israel intentionally targeted civilians.
Goldstone also said the evidence presented did not meet "the criminal standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt".
You can ignore all of those things. You can ignore the fact that they placed their headquarters under a hospital or that they fire rockets next to another hospital (and hit it by mistake then blamed Israel).
Just as long as it fits the narrative of Israel is lying and the Hamas is, truthful???
What level of evidence do you need? There's motive, there's justification, there's first person testimony... What do you think, that the people who send suicide bombers into busses with children are too nice???
Confirmation bias is a problematic thing. For instance, I don't want to believe that the Hamas is truthful about the number of deaths in Gaza. But I don't KNOW that they are lying. I have no source of that other than their history. It's also very clear that they don't divide combatants from civilians which is the number I want to know. But the difference is my belief doesn't factor into this. I just don't know. That isn't evidence either.
In this case the evidence is pretty damn clear.
You repeat Israeli and us propaganda about Hamas intentions. Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.
You repeat the lie that the rocket hit the hospital (no evidence of this and the evidence points to an Israeli bomb or shell) You also repeat the lie that there is a base under the hospital.
You are starting from the assumption Israel is good and Hamas is bad, then working backwards to justify that. You blindly believe US and Israeli governments, when they have lied and continue to lie to the public.
What motive and justification are you even talking about? Why would they even keep using human shields if they know Israel is just going to kill them anyway? You think Hamas wants their own people to die for funsies? Or maybe it’s that Israel is a genocidal state that needs to justify globally why it’s massacring civilians?
Also amusing you post that you can’t know about the civilian deaths. The UN and other human rights groups have confirmed the numbers and said they are probably a low estimate. How is that not evidence for you?
Divide civilians from combatants? How many of the 1400 Israelis killed on the 7th were IDF btw?
But yeah, you’re right about confirmation bias being a thing.
Mosab Hassan Yousef is very much not an Israeli. He has family still in Gaza which might not talk to him but he still loves them (my spouse knows him personally).
Here's a PDF from Nato: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields....
> You repeat Israeli and us propaganda about Hamas intentions.
Their intentions are clear from their documents. They are clear from their actions. I saw the busses they blew up, I spoke to people who were hiding in a safe room while half their peaceful village was wiped out. These are people who would fly kites with Gazan's to promote peaceful co-existence. Not settlers.
Israel has free media. A lot of the bad stuff you hear about Israels action comes from Israeli media and Israelis. There is propaganda, but with free press it's very hard to keep it going.
> Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.
Let's start by saying that the current government is awful and terrible. Not as bad as the Hamas but definitely should be in jail. They got elected due to a broken electoral system and Benjamin Netanyahu's manipulation of the political system to get away from his criminal trials.
> Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.
I didn't hear Likud members specifically say "Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth" but I did hear coalition members say that and they are indeed abhorrent and despicable. Fortunately, the army is an independent branch. It obeys the law and international law. Soldiers know they are liable, although indeed there are some terrible cases where they stray, but there are good cases where they are caught.
I'm not saying Israel is the "good guy" here. It's a bad situation. But the Hamas is by far more terrible to all sides. It is currently a choice, either the Hamas or Israel. By the Hamas's own words, they will do this again: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1y31101m6
Israel literally has no choice here. I hope this war will also result in the collapse of the Likud government and maybe a second chance for peace without the interference of Netanyahu or the Hamas.
> You are starting from the assumption Israel is good and Hamas is bad, then working backwards to justify that. You blindly believe US and Israeli governments, when they have lied and continue to lie to the public.
Fair. I do start from that point. I don't think I blindly believe them though. The evidence of the Hamas murdering civilians is pretty evidence by the three busses blown up on the street where I used to live in the 90s... Or the bartender I knew who was burned to an inch of death in a cafe explosion. These aren't good people.
OTOH I spent a lot of time with Palestinians who are great people. Moderate, peaceful people. I know them and I know they are not the Hamas. They are its victims.
> Why would they even keep using human shields if they know Israel is just going to kill them anyway?
Israel tries not to kill them so it actually works. See the hospital case. Israel knows that the headquarters are there and yet, not a single bomb.
But when Israel still hits even one of them, then it makes sense to infuriate and raise more terrorists. To reduce the legitimacy of Israel and the victim goes to heaven... It's a win for them regardless of what Israel does.
> You think Hamas wants their own people to die for funsies?
I suggest googling martyrdom and the Muslim Brotherhood which was the source of the Hamas. Their extre...
Independent, maybe, but not really free, when all press is subject to the Israeli Military Censor.
Not under international law. If you hide among civilians, using them as human shields, any civilian deaths or injuries are deemed to be war crimes committed by you, not the opposing force.
Look it up.
We're done here.
Israel specifically pointed at the area where they will be bombing to clear civilians. They used cell phone tracking to make sure that their message was getting through and only then conducted bombing. This seriously hindered the impact of the bombing since it lets the terrorists escape.
Notice that these "facts" about civilians dying are given by the Hamas who block escape roads for their own people and disallow them from going into their tunnels for safety. The Hamas wants civilian casualties to raise the next generation of terrorists and to reduce the legitimacy of Israel.
> And I also suggest meditating on the fact that Israel's war on Gaza is the first war in modern history where women and children comprise the vast majority of the victims.
According to the Hamas which has lied repeatedly about everything and specifically prevented people from leaving.
> Kind of makes you wonder who the 'terrorists' are.
No it doesn't. The difference is stark.
The Hamas his holding children hostage. It opened this attack by burning civilians alive and shooting children. It was during a time when Israel was reducing pressure on Gaza so 100% unprovoked and against civilians. They knew retaliation would happen and are keeping hostages so the retaliation will happen.
They block their own people from the tunnels so they will die in the crossfire.
Israel might make mistakes that harm civilians (a lot fewer than reported) but the hamas left Israel no choice. Imagine your children held in a terrorist tunnel, Israel is REMARKABLY easy on them all things considered.
Look, I used to be as Pro-Israeli as they come. I fully endorse the right of any nation to defend itself when attacked by terrorists ( and yes Hamas is a terrorist group on par with Al-Qaeda).
But it's one thing to act against terrorists, and it's another thing entirely to indiscriminately kill children for crying out loud. Children!
I supported Israel, but I have a conscience, as do the vast majority of human beings. At this point, there's no difference between Hamas and the Govt of Israel.
In the refugee camp that was bombed, children were trying to drag the corpses of other children they had been playing with together in a playground. That's heartbreaking, it's horrifying.
And to respond to your 'fake statistics' claim, the UN and Aid Agencies have repeatedly certified that the death numbers released are accurate, with some insisting they're actually undercounts, which means even more innocent people have been killed by the Israeli Government's indiscriminate bombing than has been reported.
I usually just lurk on HN without commenting. But it's just that it was difficult to read someone actually defending & rationalising the intentional murder of children. I mean I had to say something.
Even if it's only online, one does have to speak up.
Keeping quiet and going about one's life, while atrocities are being committed (even if they're being committed by the Govt of a country one previously had some admiration for), makes one a silent accomplice to those commiting the said atrocities.
This is not actually how the Geneva Conventions work. In particular, the Geneva Conventions do not allow a belligerent to intentionally use human shields in order to turn a legitimate military target into an illegal target. Furthermore, the so called rule of "proportionality" does not actually use the term "proportionate". Instead, the criteria is whether the "expected" civilian casualties are "excessive" "in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated". There's a good thread here breaking this down: https://twitter.com/Aizenberg55/status/1719729794043052234
The proportionality rule ultimately requires a judgement call, like the thread you provided states. I understand that your call might be different than mine, but to me the evidence is clear: Israel is not paying appropriate heed to Article 57 §1: "In the conduct of military operations, constant care shall be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects."
You seem to think the massive toll on civilians and civilian objects (houses) is merely because Hamas is using them as shields, to me this tactic of Hamas' is now mainly an excuse used by IDF to terrorize to the point of obliteration a perceived hateful albeit civilian population, a strategy that has strong support in Israel after Hamas heinous attacks on October 7.
We can debate the finer points of this ad nauseam, but that would be missing the greater picture, which is that the Israeli army is now doing exactly what Hamas expected them to do. What we need now is to tell the Israelis to stop and reconsider, not provide them with further excuses for genocidal policies. The current trajectory is not in Israel's long term interests, nor those of the region or indeed the world.
Hamas routinely places military targets such as rocket launch sites, headquarters, and weapons productions centers directly alongside and underneath civilian population centers. They do this to manipulate gullible people like you and they are succeeding. Israel is right not to care about such foolish opinions when Hamas has vowed to repeat the massacres of October 7 repeatedly as long as they exist. They are not the ones pursuing a genocidal policy.
> foolish opinions
I understand. Instead of civil discourse you prefer to have ad hominem laden discussions about your insults and strawmen? A tactic commonly used in lieu of sound arguments as you may be aware. But granted, this issue is "too close to home" for some people, a level-headed discussion can be too much to ask for.
I guess we're done here. Have a nice day.
During the 2002 Battle of Jenin, Palestinians claimed hundreds to thousands of civilian casualties, including claims of mass graves. Afterwards, the total number of Palestinian casualties turned out to be 52 to 53, most of whom were militants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin_(2002)
As for Jabalia, many of the civilian casualties are attributed to “sinkholes” (i.e. the Hamas tunnel network). There were also warnings of “the possibility of secondary explosions due to the presence of munitions in the area” (https://x.com/gaza_report/status/1719363355360518250), along with reports of “the loss of Jabaliya brigade commander Ibrahim Biari and several other fighters when their underground operations center collapsed after being hit by an Israeli air strike.”
Israel issued a warning weeks ago that the safest part of Gaza would the southern half of the strip, south of the Wadi Gaza. Why wouldn’t Hamas place refugees there instead of on top of their underground command centers where they were storing munitions?
> Kind of makes you wonder who the 'terrorists' are.
On October 7th, Hamas fighters entered Israel to rape and murder over 1,400 people in their homes, in the streets, and at a music festival. Over 200 were taken hostage. Do you believe this was a legitimate act of resistance?
The white house did eventually confirm the casualties (1), not to mention in previous wars there were no major discrepancies and were credible and believed by the white house and media too, in fact, UN believes that the numbers are actually higher but still under the rubble
> Some U.N. officials, however, say the real number of casualties is likely significantly higher because the health ministry’s tally doesn’t include people still under the rubble. (2)
(1) https://twitter.com/OopsGuess/status/1719517883976614095
(2) https://archive.ph/1ftlW
The White House confirmed that civilian casualties are taking place, but civilian casualties take place in every armed conflict.
> not to mention in previous wars there were no major discrepancies
False; did you read the part of my comment addressing Jenin? Even in this conflict, the blast at the hospital, Hamas claimed 500 deaths when they blamed it on Israel. It turned out that not only did Israel not bomb the hospital (rather, it was hit by a rocket fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad), but the total number of deaths was, depending on which source you believe, anywhere between 1/10 and 1/2 as many as Hamas had originally claimed.
They did confirm the numbers, they are independently audited by the UN team too, always been the case, even Senators now are confirming the numbers (1), additionally, if US “really” wanted to confirm the numbers, they can send a team there to confirm these numbers by themselves, but we all know it’s just a dirty politics to hijack the credibility of Palestinians officials’ statements to allow further crimes goes undetected.
> False; did you read the part of my comment addressing Jenin?
I did, and has nothing to do with this current issue so it’s irrelevant, since they fall in different administrations (one in Gaza other in West bank)
> It turned out that not only did Israel not bomb the hospital (rather, it was hit by a rocket fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad)
That’s also another lie, it wasn’t a misfire as noted by many analysts who also analyzed the sound of that hit, this video probably provides the best timeline (2)
(1) https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1719858059193794599
(2) https://twitter.com/ChiefTrumpster/status/171679329621789515...
You mean the 40 beheaded babies or the one in the oven? As so far all these “stories” turned out to be an utter lie.
On the other hand, did you know Tantura (1) Deir Yassin (2) where confirmed cases of killing and raping of minors -per the vets who served that time? and around 1mill Palestinians were forced to leave their houses and homeland back in 1948, and most of them ended up where? in Gaza!, that also has their refugee camp bombed yesterday.. Gaza since 2005 is an open air prison, even years ago they tried to march peacefully to the borders to show the world that there are people still in there dying slowly (3), so drop that victim tone because a “victim” cannot cut water/electricity/internet/food/logistics instantly and proceed to drop 18,000 tons of bombs that’s equivalent to 1.5 times the force of bomb of Hiroshima. Israel is who created that resistance by occupying the land and violating all international laws, most of these resistance fighters are orphans who have their parents killed in previous bombing, and the west bank is under a strict martial law that will put you behind the bars for likes on social media, trying to isolate what happened in Oct/7th as the previous 75years were two loving peaceful “sovereign” nations next to each other before one attacked is pure rhetoric propaganda, only fools will believe it.
(1) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre
(2) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre
(3) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_borde...
No. Just those that were true, they're enough. I know a few people personally including a family who survived. Most of their village is dead or in Gaza.
> On the other hand, did you know Tantura Deir Yassin.
Sure. There were several such cases on both sides.
I don't want to defend the indefensible. But don't pretend that it was one sided... There were awful atrocities in 1948 on both sides. To be fair, the IDF or Israel didn't really exist yet. There was no real rule book. People just came off the boat from the holocaust to fight for their lives against armies of several different countries intent on destroying them.
But lets talk about the positive sides. The Arabs that did stay in Israel got full citizenship and rights. I can't say there's no discrimination but they do have a supreme court justice and were part of the last government formed in Israel.
> Gaza since 2005 is an open air prison
I'm with you on that. But the blame for that is on the Hamas. Israel has repeatedly tried to lift restrictions on Gaza. Just 4 weeks ago there were 17,000 Gazans in Israeli borders. Some of them illegally and Israel turned a blind eye as part of a misconception that the Hamas "calmed down".
Israel removed settlements from Gaza and wants nothing more than to be out of it. The last thing Israel wants to do is invade Gaza. Notice that even with all the "restrictions" missiles etc. all went through freely. Hamas terrorists were able to travel freely to Iran where they trained in modern warfare. The narrative of a blockade on Gaza is inaccurate at best.
> years ago they tried to march peacefully to the borders to show the world that there are people still in there dying slowly
One of the families murdered on October 7th was a family that held annual kite flying events across the fence for solidarity with the children of Gaza.
OTOH the Hamas used such marches on the fence to plant the bombs they would use to take it down on October 7th...
I know quite a few Gazans and I know the majority of them want peace. As I said, the war isn't against the people of Gaza. They are the poor souls stuck in the middle. Unfortunately, the Hamas is unwilling to compromise or change.
> drop that victim tone
I'm not using a victim tone. That's projection. I'm using a blame tone. The fault is the Hamas's fault only... They left no choice to Israel. They intentionally chose to do that knowing full well that innocent lives will be hurt. They chose to increase the number of Palestinian victims instead of saving innocent lives.
Israel doesn't have a choice here.
> 18,000 tons of bombs that’s equivalent to 1.5 times the force of bomb of Hiroshima
And yet Gaza stands. Israel has literal atomic bombs yet they chose weapons that would allow refined targeting to minimize the impact on civilians. It's still impossible. The cancer of Hamas is embedded deep into Gaza. The fact that so much was bombed and even with the Hamas's inflated numbers the casualties are so low, shows how careful Israel has been.
> Israel is who created that resistance by occupying the land and violating all international laws
That sentence is unclear but Israel doesn't violate international law. On the contrary it abuses it legally.
The occupation is terrible, I'm with you on that. But it is legal. When soldiers are caught violating the law, they are jailed. Yes, I don't want to defend Israeli occupation because obviously I don't believe in that. But there's BAD and there's ridiculously WORSE. The Hamas is worse for everyone involved, Palestinians most of all.
> most of these resistance fighters are orphans who have their parents killed in previous bombing
The Hamas isn't a resistance movement. It's a Jihadi movement. The PLO is a resistance movement. The difference is th...
It is precisely for those who you hate, who you find horrifying, that freedom of speech and other rights matter
This isn't the "people we hate". It's people who abuse the system by spreading hate and misinformation.
"Being in violation of Apple and Google's app store rules could result in an app being removed from the mobile app stores both companies control."
> Some of the channels amassed hundreds of thousands of subscribers and sent out graphic images and videos of the war, in addition to calls to action from Hamas members.
I’ve seen some channels that have these same graphic depictions, but instead have a tone of “look at the atrocities being committed, Hamas must be held accountable .”
Telegram seems to be a replacement for subreddits that got banned in the 2010s (and now even liveleak is gone).
Hamas is a terrorist org, so I would expect any communication they use that isn’t purely end to end encrypted will get shut down.
I’m typically a pretty free speech person. But my idea for limiting is violence and crimes. Or at least “real” crimes (I don’t care about drug trade but think that planning terrorism or domestic violence or whatnot should be blocked based on their link to crime).