Ask HN: Can you take more than 2 consecutive weeks of vacation?

34 points by xsoul ↗ HN
For context, I work in a US startup. I wanted to take 3 weeks of vacation to visit my family on the other side of the earth. But I was told by my manager that I need to work remotely during 1 of the 3 weeks, in order to follow the convention.

Is there an unspoken rule/etiquette to take no more than 2 consecutive weeks of vacation?

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Well yes I can but it is a moot point because my spouse cannot so the situation as a whole isn't any better than if I was limited as well
every job I've had it was a process to get more than 2wks at a time; it was fraught with peril. I only got it through once or twice and my manager was not happy with it. That said, I usually get ~2wks per quarter.
depends on the manager and company. before working in software Yeah i thought taking a lot of time in US like that was unheard of. That's also how i watched my parents manage their time. Working in software though, I feel like even up to 4 weeks has been normalized because so many people from foreign countries like India go home to visit family and the trip is a big one to take.
I've not heard it forbidden but mainly speak to your manager to ensure that things are scheduled well enough.
> Is there an unspoken rule/etiquette to take no more than 2 consecutive weeks of vacation?

No, as long as you give your manager the heads up with enough notice, so they can find someone to cover for you, you can use all your vacation in one shot.

Note, at least with me, this means no more vacation bridge days, and more consideration needing to head out early, etc.

Also, if we are at an unlimited vacation org, this means you only have 1-2 weeks of vacation left over.

Is your company an “unlimited PTO” organization or do you have contractually guaranteed days off?
If you are asking if there’s a general unspoken rule in US that everyone knows but you are not aware of - no, there isn’t one that I personally ever heard of.

But it’s not exactly unexpected that you may need to negotiate something with your specific employer. It sucks tho.

Most places I've worked, there has been a written or unwritten (and, depending on jurisdiction, maybe statutory) assumption that you can take a week or two off without discussion (other than which weeks, naturally) but anything above that may need some discussion about project impact and timing.

It typically hasn't been a problem if there is lots of notice, but "I'd like to take 3 weeks off next month" is likely to end up with a bunch of back and forth at best.

My current place has a number of international hires, and has been pretty flexible about allowing large blocks of time to go "home" and visit, some mix of vacation time, unpaid leave, and remote work for 4+ weeks. But these have typically been planned many months in advance.

What convention?

Your manager is a bad manager.

Sincerely, A Former Manager

Managers will try anything they can to prevent you exercising your rights. While there can be scenarios that make it impractical to take n weeks off, convention isn't a valid one.
Yes, I can but I'm supposed to give two weeks notice if I'm doing so. (And no, I don't mean I'd need to quit).
I can, but I don't abuse it. I only took it once as I was truly exhausted and really needed to decompress. My advice is make sure your performance is stellar and also make sure to leave your team in a good position to perform without you. Having a good manager to run interference for you while away is also important. Gladly I checked all those boxes. YMMV.
I have to take at least 2 consecutive weeks once every year. Switzerland.
Same here in CH. And it's not uncommon for some people that have a lot of OT to take maybe a month straight (with a bit of advice in advance)
Europe's PTO is like another world, I recall emailing someone in the summer and the auto-response was like "be back in 2 months"
Same in Finland. 4 weeks is preferred, but for good reason employer can split that, but must always provide at least 2 weeks in row. So for regular worker 5 weeks over the year. With at least 2 of them being consecutive.
Yep, sometimes it’s a little annoying but reading here i’m not going to complain too lodly
This is why unlimited PTO is stupid. You have to get permission for ANY time off. Lame.
Folks don’t ask me for permission for time off, they inform me. I ask if they’ve coordinated with their teammates, if that’s appropriate (sometimes it isn't, given a family event or the like, in which case managers and peers coordinate whatever is needed for the person to get leave with a clear conscience).
This is not my experience, having worked at "unlimited PTO" companies for my entire career. You end up with people on the team able to take radically different amounts of vacation depending on the current projects, who is engaged in the mission critical stuff, etc.

The absolute worst position to be in is on a critical but non-visible infrastructure piece, where nobody outside the immediate team notices your impact, until it falls over and takes the entire business with it while it's offline. You end up without flashy deliveries to leverage as political capital to advocate for yourself, yet still with the downsides of having difficulty justifying time away due to business risk.

It has its pros and cons, and it depends on your employer. Your employer generally has to approve PTO even on a PTO plan that tracks hours. If you don't trust your employer to honor a reasonable PTO policy - unlimited or otherwise - then you should get a new job because there's probably lots of other problems.

I've been able to take blocks as long a 3 weeks off at an employer with an unlimited PTO policy, because I worked hard when I was there and my manager and I were on the same page. I told them when I was going and how long for, and they said nice, have fun.

Etiquette was to give at least 2x as much notice as the duration of the PTO. If you're going to take 3 weeks off give at least 6 weeks notice.

> Your employer generally has to approve PTO even on a PTO plan that tracks hours

They don't have to, they choose to.

We track days of PTO where I work and there's no approval process. You take the days you want to take and that's that.

It's the ideal way to do it IMO.

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> They don't have to, they choose to.

What I meant was that the employer has a policy where your manager or some other authority has to approve the PTO.

To your point this is a choice.

Yep, unlimited PTO is a scam.

But, to make lemonade, I make sure to take 4-5 weeks of PTO per year, EVERY year. That way, it's actually a perk/advantageous over traditional PTO packages.

How do you successfully advocate for that?

These experiences blow my mind - I have managed to take 4-5 weeks of PTO, total, over the course of a decade in my career at "unlimited PTO" startups due to pretty much always being mission critical, and even those took some real pushing.

If you're mission-critical then your company has a bus factor of 1, so you probably should make sure that other people know how to fill in for you. Then you can take PTO and tell people to look at it as a training exercise just in case you do get hit by that bus (or, you know, quit because you're burned out).
To me it's a simple argument. PTO has to be negotiated upon job start.

If you say you're going to take 5 weeks of PTO every year, and that was negotiated during the offer phase, well they can't then say you can't take it. Particularly if you want to take December off, say to wind down and go on some ski vacations.

What companies with "unlimited PTO" really mean, is that it's negotiable -- primarily in their favor.

I just make sure to schedule the time off ahead of time during 1:1 with my managers.

It is a part of my compensation package/job offer. Therefore I am entitled to it as much as I am entitled to my pay check.

That's not been my experience, unless by "get permission" you mean "provide notification". I simply tell my manager when I'm going to be gone; the longer I'm going to be gone, the further in advance I let him know. That's it. I don't have to nickel-and-dime myself with PTO hours or keep track of them at all. I strongly prefer unlimited PTO to the traditional model.
I can do that without manager approval. I'm an SRE in Canada and accrue quite a bit of time off in lieu on my oncall shifts.
Not exactly, but there's no guaranteed time off in the US at all (FMLA aside) and even mid-career office workers often only have three weeks per year (early-career workers often have two weeks, sometimes less) with the result that taking three weeks all at once is pretty unusual across most of the economy.
There's a lot of "it depends" here. As both a former founder and early startup employee these are the things that come to mind—

How far out did you discuss this with your employer? Were they aware of it when you joined? There's a pretty big difference if this is 6 months or two weeks away. Setting expectations go a long way here on both sides.

What is the size of the business? People are more critical the smaller the business is. The stakes are very different for a business with 10 vs 100 vs 1,000 employees.

Is the business cashflow positive—or near it? You said startup, so that makes me think they aren't cash flow positive. Three consecutive weeks is a lot to ask for a small business that isn't making money.

Essentially, the more stable the business is the less of an issue I'd expect it to be—given expectations were set in advance.

This is unbelievable nonsense.

Your employees accrue PTO. If you can't handle them using their PTO, maybe you shouldn't have employees.

If three consecutive weeks is a lot to ask, what would you do when that same employee gets hit by a bus and is dead for even longer?

Oh right, you'd just replace them and the business would move on.

OP, this is the real answer to your question. The business doesn't care about you or your well being.

I don't think you want your boss to replace you when you go on vacation.
The point is that some arbitrary number of weeks of vacation isn't the business-destroying choice this founder makes it out to be. Use your PTO. You earned it.
It depends on how important you are. If you are the director of sales, software architect, or something like that, it can be business destroying; particularly if some unforeseen emergency happens. An example is a new big client is suddenly requiring something happen before signing a contract and everyone needs to be on deck for that to happen.

If you are one of 100 CSRs, then it wouldn't be business-destroying obviously.

Any serious business needs to have a continuity plan and can't depend on availability of a single person. What if the person you depend on will have a medical emergency or resign?

Business owners can take this risk but using "don't take more than 2 weeks of PTO" as a risk mitigation strategy is disingenuous and disrespectful to their employees.

Startups running lean, which is what you need to do in order to maximize runway, don't have the money or time for "continuity plans".

Haven't you ever joked about the "bus factor"? All the startups I've worked at would have likely failed if any one of the core people had to depart, for any reason.

Then startups need to be honest about their needs up front, and stop using misleading terms like "unlimited" -- particularly early stage startups.
You're not wrong, but early stage startups are a unique animal.
I've yet to see a job where hiring a new employee is more efficient than letting one have off 3 weeks instead of 2. There is a really good chance that a new employee wouldn't be working yet before they've returned.
The OP doesn't indicate how much vacation time they've accrued. Perhaps they get "unlimited" PTO, which makes things murky.
If they had unlimited PTO it wouldn't be murky. The problem is that nobody has unlimited PTO, there's always a limit.
I gave a measured reply given what the poster provided.

"Unbelievable nonsense" is a pretty harsh response. If they are working for a 10-person business burning cash, that is very different than a profitable 1,000-person one.

The poster asked about etiquette. Personally, I'd be offended as a founder or employee at a 10-person company if someone asked for 3 weeks off at the last minute.

This nonsense comes down to: Rule and Control. That's all it is. Employers think they're entitled to rule over the lives of their workers.

Absolute nonsense.

Not to mention, just about every position in an early startup is mission critical. I'd say 3 weeks off would be fine in the company I work at, but I'd be expected to be contactable and available if an emergency happened. We're about 5 years in though. The first few years, I really couldn't take vacation other than a 3-4 day weekend here and there.
When I worked in academia, yes absolutely if the weeks aligned with breaks in instruction. So winter holidays, or pretty much any time in June, July, or August were fine for long stretches of PTO.

In the private sector, I think I took one two-week vacation. It was not a problem, but it had to be approved.

One company I worked with had a mandatory 8 week sabbatical after 10 years, and every 5 years thereafter. It had to be taken as a single block of time off.

A company policy requiring large blocks of time off strikes me as a really good idea for companies that can afford it. The employees get time to decompress and destress thus making them more productive and creative. And the company is given a chance to figure out what it takes to cover your job if you were to leave. Like finding out that no one else has credentials to that one ultra important service that only has to be accessed every 6 months or so. Or learning that someone else needs to be trained as a backup in that one special thing you always take care of.
It's a common policy for financial firms. It's hard to cover fraud when you're on vacation
Our org had an employee that never missed a day for 10 years or so, then an accident put her in the hospital. The fraud going on was immediately obvious to the person that covered her and they arrested her before she got released.
In Europe it’s common to take an entire month off.
EU-wide minimum vacation allotment is 4 weeks, right? With some member states going as high as 7? Plus holidays (another 10 days, I wanna say, in the case of France for example).

The US has no minimum vacation time. Most folks go their whole career without ever seeing 5 weeks off in a single year. It's common for workers to start at 5-10 days. At the bottom end of the economic ladder, there's no paid time off at all, and if you try to take off a whole week off you might be told "no" with the alternative of "quit".

Depends by country. But 4-5 weeks after first year for example. And then depending on local customs you could swap some special pay for more time off... And then public sector workers might get even more time off.

And this is not counting any public holidays that might or might not fall on weekdays, which also depend on per country.

Not to forget that sick days are well sick days. So it could be if you get sick on vacation you don't lose that vacation time...

I needed it once some years ago. I took a full month. No questions asked.

EDIT for context: Spanish consulting company

At my previous company they created a policy where if it was more than a week or two you had to get permission from the CEO (company was a few hundred people in size). This was after one month where like 5 people all took 3 week vacations after direct manager approvals and it created some operational issues... This all struck me as a bit unreasonable though because it was not an unlimited PTO place at the time so the time had been banked.
Yes. I think I’m in a rarely lucky situation where my employer lets me save my holiday and sandwich it around the Xmas shutdown so I end up with a month off at the end of every year
In Sweden it’s customary to get 25-40 days of vacation per year based on seniority, public vs private employers and other benefits.