From Ars' description of the legal never-never land around the ESA - it sounds like an absolute paradise for all the worst sorts of people and behaviors.
I see the article talks about the Netherlands, I’ve recently left the country as it had become unbearable, as it was also for a friend from China who was there with a work visa and forced to work weekends, but for any extra EU Ive met there. I’d advise any foreigner to stay away from the country, I don’t think its fair to talk abou ESA if the issue is only in that blackface racist place
I've been in NL for 4 years, but I also lived in Germany and UK, so I can do some comparison.
I think in NL there is a kind of humour that could be hard on foreigners, my friends circle was composed of indians, malaysians, irish, italians, and chineses.
It is common to hear natives mimicking indian's accent, asking asians if they eat dogs, etc.
For example, I stopped going to the office, as italian because my manager would come to my desk every now and then to say in front of others: "Oh he doesn't like pizza with pineapple make sure you don't eat it" or "can I have cappuccino or it's forbidden at this hour?"
But I had also a couple of friends from outside EU who needed jobs in order to stay, who were assigned tasks with deadline on Monday, on Fridays.
I think it's a kind of humour that could come from good will, but in the end results in a overall exploitation to make you work extra time without overtime or to force you to do weekends.
For me it's very multicultural, I've loved it during remote working as I was able to don't have much contacts with natives, but I couldn't find anything that was fully remote so I should've been forced to go to the office outside my friends' bubble
>my friends circle was composed of indians, malaysians, irish, italians, and chineses.
I used to live in the USA, and as a foreigner I too found an international circle like this to be the most enjoyable. It was easy to come by in the US though. Now I'm doing a PhD in Germany, and the research group is like this, however I've yet to find such group elsewhere, given I very recently got here and havent explored that much yet.
Do you think the natives are like that among themselves too? I'm surprised to hear this about NL. Shame.
>but I also lived in Germany and UK
how was your time in Germany and the UK if you dont mind me asking?
I think UK is the exact opposite of NL in terms of having the sensitivity to don’t hurt others, Germany is a middle ground, the only thing I can mention of Germany was the guy at burgeramt complaining because I arrived a couple of minutes earlier to the appointment and he didn’t start his shift yet ^^
The ESA sounds like it has some world-class assholes in its ranks, but everyone associated with the article is playing word-games. On one side, assholes. On the other, dishonest rhetoric.
Let's start with the title:
> The European Space Agency may have a bullying problem
May have a bullying problem? Does it, or does it not? You have all these brave victims coming forward with stories of harrowing abuse. It sounds like you don't fully believe them, Ars.
If they're telling the truth, then the ESA has a bullying problem. If they're not, this is just a bunch of underperforming ex-employees being vindictive and there's no story here. But the ESA will forever be tarred with the implication.
> The staff-versus-contractor divide quickly became obvious. Although colleagues employed as staff performed similar tasks, they were often invited to meetings that Alex felt were relevant to the entire team but from which contractors were excluded.
We don't invite contractors to meetings either. We don't trust them not to leak sensitive information discussed in such meetings, to the media or to competitors. Short term employment + sensitive access = asking for it.
Given that the contractors went straight to the media when they felt aggrieved, score one for ESA in correctly tagging these fools for the troublemakers they ended up being. Imagine how much damage they could have done if they also had IP or material information about anything of substance?
> When they sought more information, Alex said that contractors would sometimes be put down and shouted at in meetings. At the same time, the manager obsessed with what the workers were doing, sometimes messaging them more than 10 times a day.
> “My line manager consistently undermined my abilities and expertise, making derogatory comments about my work and belittling my contributions,” Alex told Ars. “I witnessed my colleagues being subjected to similar mistreatment, which created a hostile and distressing atmosphere within the team. There were instances where the manager would physically intimidate and threaten employees.”
The last "hostile workplace" case I worked involved claims similar to these. The messaging "more than 10 times a day" ended up being frustrated attempts to reach an underperforming employee that was never at her desk and generally AWOL.
To outsiders looking in, getting a string of 10 messages sure looks a lot like harassment. The woman had abandoned her job and deftly reframed her irritated boss as a harasser to HR-- the context under which the investigation started. She also made the "physically intimidated and threatened me" claim too, which was veiled sexism on her part because he was a man and she was a domestic violence victim. This should not be taken at face value.
> “I was told by many colleagues to keep my head down, be quiet, and not to upset people.” But just like Alex, Nic said he “experienced verbal aggression on multiple occasions” and “countless times of rude, dismissive, condescending, unprofessional behavior to myself and other contractors.”
Score one for the kids. Stupid boss. Learn how to be passive-aggressive if you want to compete with kids on their level. Emotional outbursts open you up to vague accusations like this.
Yelling at us is something our Dad used to do, until we cancelled him using the iPhone he bought us.
> "The overall situation at the center was a constant revolving door of contractors," said Sam, another former team member. "Out of our team of nine people, six either left or were fired within a half-year."
Is the European Space Agency really an abusive workplace?
Or did 6 out of 9 European contractors just really suck at their job?
Try working in a customer-facing role. That'll teach you the definition of abuse.
10 comments
[ 2.4 ms ] story [ 35.6 ms ] threadCould you elaborate? I just moved to Germany and was thinking if not going to NL was a mistake.
I think in NL there is a kind of humour that could be hard on foreigners, my friends circle was composed of indians, malaysians, irish, italians, and chineses.
It is common to hear natives mimicking indian's accent, asking asians if they eat dogs, etc.
For example, I stopped going to the office, as italian because my manager would come to my desk every now and then to say in front of others: "Oh he doesn't like pizza with pineapple make sure you don't eat it" or "can I have cappuccino or it's forbidden at this hour?"
But I had also a couple of friends from outside EU who needed jobs in order to stay, who were assigned tasks with deadline on Monday, on Fridays.
I think it's a kind of humour that could come from good will, but in the end results in a overall exploitation to make you work extra time without overtime or to force you to do weekends.
For me it's very multicultural, I've loved it during remote working as I was able to don't have much contacts with natives, but I couldn't find anything that was fully remote so I should've been forced to go to the office outside my friends' bubble
>my friends circle was composed of indians, malaysians, irish, italians, and chineses.
I used to live in the USA, and as a foreigner I too found an international circle like this to be the most enjoyable. It was easy to come by in the US though. Now I'm doing a PhD in Germany, and the research group is like this, however I've yet to find such group elsewhere, given I very recently got here and havent explored that much yet.
Do you think the natives are like that among themselves too? I'm surprised to hear this about NL. Shame.
>but I also lived in Germany and UK
how was your time in Germany and the UK if you dont mind me asking?
Let's start with the title:
> The European Space Agency may have a bullying problem
May have a bullying problem? Does it, or does it not? You have all these brave victims coming forward with stories of harrowing abuse. It sounds like you don't fully believe them, Ars.
If they're telling the truth, then the ESA has a bullying problem. If they're not, this is just a bunch of underperforming ex-employees being vindictive and there's no story here. But the ESA will forever be tarred with the implication.
> The staff-versus-contractor divide quickly became obvious. Although colleagues employed as staff performed similar tasks, they were often invited to meetings that Alex felt were relevant to the entire team but from which contractors were excluded.
We don't invite contractors to meetings either. We don't trust them not to leak sensitive information discussed in such meetings, to the media or to competitors. Short term employment + sensitive access = asking for it.
Given that the contractors went straight to the media when they felt aggrieved, score one for ESA in correctly tagging these fools for the troublemakers they ended up being. Imagine how much damage they could have done if they also had IP or material information about anything of substance?
> When they sought more information, Alex said that contractors would sometimes be put down and shouted at in meetings. At the same time, the manager obsessed with what the workers were doing, sometimes messaging them more than 10 times a day.
> “My line manager consistently undermined my abilities and expertise, making derogatory comments about my work and belittling my contributions,” Alex told Ars. “I witnessed my colleagues being subjected to similar mistreatment, which created a hostile and distressing atmosphere within the team. There were instances where the manager would physically intimidate and threaten employees.”
The last "hostile workplace" case I worked involved claims similar to these. The messaging "more than 10 times a day" ended up being frustrated attempts to reach an underperforming employee that was never at her desk and generally AWOL.
To outsiders looking in, getting a string of 10 messages sure looks a lot like harassment. The woman had abandoned her job and deftly reframed her irritated boss as a harasser to HR-- the context under which the investigation started. She also made the "physically intimidated and threatened me" claim too, which was veiled sexism on her part because he was a man and she was a domestic violence victim. This should not be taken at face value.
> “I was told by many colleagues to keep my head down, be quiet, and not to upset people.” But just like Alex, Nic said he “experienced verbal aggression on multiple occasions” and “countless times of rude, dismissive, condescending, unprofessional behavior to myself and other contractors.”
Score one for the kids. Stupid boss. Learn how to be passive-aggressive if you want to compete with kids on their level. Emotional outbursts open you up to vague accusations like this.
Yelling at us is something our Dad used to do, until we cancelled him using the iPhone he bought us.
> "The overall situation at the center was a constant revolving door of contractors," said Sam, another former team member. "Out of our team of nine people, six either left or were fired within a half-year."
Is the European Space Agency really an abusive workplace?
Or did 6 out of 9 European contractors just really suck at their job?
Try working in a customer-facing role. That'll teach you the definition of abuse.