Same here! Although USB-C seems enticing, I think i will hold out one more year, since that alone is not really worth the € 1k upgrade. Other than that, I dont really see any innovations.
I feel like 2020 has been a tipping point for smartphones. Since late 2020, most phones above $500 have nice display with a fast refresh rate and take decent photos in all conditions. The RAM and CPU are plenty good enough to check Google Maps or browse Reddit in bed.
I guess power users can look into foldables, but for the rest of us upgrading a phone that's less than 3 yo is only a marginal update. The prices are relatively high too, so it's hardly worth it.
I have an iPhone 12 and still can't bring myself to upgrade to a 14 or 15.
I spend a decent amount of time in the backcountry and the satellite communication feature would at least bring some peace of mind, but even that is not enough to justify the cost of upgrading.
Which iphone 12 pro do you have, I also have the 12 Pro and I'm ready to upgrade just based on the lack of storage and other oddities that I feel would be addressed by getting a faster phone.
WhatsApp can become unusably slow for minutes at a time, apps I just used will close due to limited RAM; mind you I don't have a single game on my phone, I have bank apps, store apps, and messaging apps mostly, along with various utilities apps, like PW manager, smart home stuff, and various productivity apps (MS, Google suites). Nothing feels like it should be this terrible, and yet somehow its become a little too slow and jittery.
Apple is the only company that has been able to turn a smartphone into 'Nike Jordans'.
They had people waiting outside at midnight, they have people buying the phone for the logo, they have people buying the phone for the location of the cameras.
In the short term, I only see Apple as the company that does well during this next bumpy economy. Everyone else is selling phones to be phones. Apple is selling phones to fill a social role among status seekers. One of the most brilliant marketing idea's I've seen in my lifetime.
Not to mention, the vendor lock-in makes it incredibly difficult to leave. I only worry about anti-trust.
Seems to me that you're praising Apple for the worst excess of capitalism, turning phones into status symbols, encouraging consumerism and vendor lock-in.
Granted, I got a Pixel 8 this year, but mostly because my old phone was falling apart at the seam. I planned to design my own skin if only to incentivize me to not take off armoring from my phone.
They aren't praising Apple. It's the incredibly lame, intellectually vapid "only silly people buy Apple devices, and for silly reasons!" noise that has been the tired retort of weird anti-Apple sorts of the past decade and a half. That people are still plying this rhetoric in 2023 is simply pathetic.
Particularly weird given that a) Apple devices stay in service much longer than competitors, b) Apple sales swooned as well. It turns out that people are pretty satisfied with their devices.
I see all that, but there is a sizable market that just can't afford an iPhone that's worth looking at. Though maybe if used iPhones are usable for longer time periods, that eats a little into Android's dominance of the low end?
Apple's Mac business is doing poorly and the iPhone business is not doing particularly well. It's one of the biggest losers in this upgrade cycle delay, with Nest/Pixel being the only manufacturer growing.
Being bullish on excess capitalism during a slow down doesn't seem like a no-brainer play to me.
But to each their own.
Realistically, I'm just not sure how much growth Apple has left unless India becomes a gigantic market and pulls of a China miracle of its own.
It's already by a large margin the largest private company in the world...
If only Apple sold more than just iPhones and had some type of services business that could leverage their base of customers to get continuing growing revenue…
You have it backwards IMO, the only reason Apple is able to achieve this effect is because their phones are heads and shoulders above the rest in hardware quality and integration. Build it (well) and they will come
100%, if there were another option with the same build quality (particularly for laptops) I’d love to try something new. Everything else is kinda mediocre in comparison.
(The funniest thing is when folks on some Thinkpad or Dell think their machine has a comparable quality… It really doesn’t. You might not care in much the same way someone might care or not care about Tesla’s historically poor fitment, but there’s a real difference regardless).
One time around 2012 I was buying a laptop for someone who needed a Windows machine. Knowing the poor build quality of various low end options we decided to splurge and get a top of the line Dell model with a nicer magnesium case etc. with a price tag close to $2k. We unboxed it, powered it on, and were greeted by a loud grating noise that went away if you flexed the case.
Returned it immediately been using Apple laptops ever since.
> You have it backwards IMO, the only reason Apple is able to achieve this effect is because their phones are heads and shoulders above the rest in hardware quality and integration. Build it (well) and they will come
Well this doesn't explain why a person is upgrading from last year's model, which effectively does every single thing just as well.
The status symbol feature is what makes people upgrade _when they don't need to_. Apple has that, other manufacturers don't.
While I am simply astonishing that so many people are playing along with such an obvious bad-faith troll as the root of this thread...
The vast majority of Apple users don't upgrade year over year. Those that do generally take advantage of fantastic resale values to get the upgrade at little price.
And are you claiming that Samsung or Pixel owners aren't doing the same? I know a number of peers who buy whatever is the newest, and it certainly isn't limited to Apple users.
> The vast majority of Apple users don't upgrade year over year.
I agree with that. But young people - for whom status symbols carry the most weight - generally upgrade their iphone in less than two years at a clip of ~50%.
> And are you claiming that Samsung or Pixel owners aren't doing the same?
I didn't claim that. I don't know. But it's less of an investment and far less of a status symbol.
Can you cite your source? Like what does "young people" mean? Many young people with iPhones have old devices with broken screens. I can find a Gallup survey from 7 years ago claiming an upgrade rate every 2 years (actually they answered "whatever my provider supports", which isn't as relevant now), but notably the differences were much bigger between generations in 2015. Now many would be hard pressed to differentiate an XR from a 15.
"I didn't claim that."
You literally said "Apple has that, other manufacturers don't.". It's simply untrue. My wife has an XR and I cannot convince her to upgrade as she just doesn't want the hassle of moving to a new device. And of course that XR still gets the latest OS, updates, supports all apps, etc, quite a contrast from many competitors...
"But it's less of an investment"
Many Samsung devices are more expensive than Apple devices. Pixel 8 devices are similarly priced. As to the status claim, it's amazing how much more of a status thing non-Apple device holders make about their choice than people just choose a very good quality, high performance, well and long supported Apple device...
That is not true. Nothing Apple does say Samsung cannot repeat, heck these 2 specifically share quite a bit of hardware too, ie screens. In fact top of the line Samsung is more impressive to me, it manages to store whole chargeable pen in the body and is lighter than comparable Apple models.
There are much better sounding headphones/earplugs, ie Sennheiser.
Apple does fine products (and their share of fails), but their secret sauce is a mix of PR, timing, brilliant leadership, and tons of luck with ie that timing to market. Hardware quality is good, but that's true for literally everybody in the field and is definitely not the differentiating factor these days.
This reads like that famous line criticizing the iPod for having worse hardware specs than a competitor.
You need to include vertical integration and design in their secret sauce. Everybody else has been struggling to catch up ever since the iPod came out, and IMO they have not caught up yet.
Apple's main thing is that their devices and systems are appliances. They restrict what can be done to the most common tasks so those tasks can be polished. Tasks that they don't support are often more or less impossible to do.
And that's probably what most people want, or think they want.
What percentage of Apple's sales do you attribute to these types of reasons? they sell a couple hundred million of them per year.
Adidas trainers can be described as a fashion item purchased by people who just want the logo. I buy Adidas trainers because I've learned they fit my foot shape better than most and last longer than cheaper brands I've tried. Similarly I've tried a couple android phones and ended up on iPhones.
It sounds like you think Apple's only value proposition is social status, as if iPhones and Macbooks are the digital equivalent of owning a Porsche or Ferrari. While Apple products do carry more cachet than most competitors, that's by no means the embodiment of Apple products. The social status of owning an Apple product is overstated, IMO. I believe that, even for the proverbial Starbucks hipster, cachet is a tertiary aspect of Apple products. Said products aren't perfect, but they're straight forward, reliable, and have clean designs. Apple was also first to market (or at least that's the perception) with many cool things like a serious mp3 player (iPod), a phone with a touchscreen that can replace a traditional computer for many (iPhone), wireless earbuds that don't suck nearly as much as the competition (AirPods), and so on; when someone buys Apple products, part of the motivation comes from the hope that they'll get first access to something cool, or own something that will work well with the next cool thing.
The reason I don't see myself owning anything but a Macbook for my personal computing is because, having owned many Windows PCs and spent decades now trying on-and-off to make Linux work for the desktop, Apple makes the best laptops I've ever owned. They're not perfect; I've run into multiple keyboard failures over the years, but that's pretty much the only serious flaw I've encountered. The macOS UI has remained incredibly consistent in contrast to pretty much every other OS, and I've seen a tremendous improvement with Apple Silicon being added to Macbooks. Repairs and replacements are less expensive for me now because the last few generations of Macbook Air satisfy all my needs, whereas I used to need a Macbook Pro.
I'd be bullish on Apple not because of social status, but because they're a well run company that provides clear value to its customers. Many of us may disagree with the choices they make, but Apple makes most of those choices very rationally. Social status is worthless the minute people no longer care see Apple as providing them that status. Hardware and software ecosystems, on the other hand, don't become worthless overnight unless you're in the pager business.
This is absolutely the case for GenZ where they've ditched the hyper-individualism of my generation and tend to be far more conformist in nature.
Obviously it was always the case to some extent that the latest Apple gadget or Nike trainers were seen as trendy, but GenZ specifically seem to have taken this to a whole new level where it's actively damaging to one's self image not to have an iPhone or a nice pair of white Nike trainers.
Given this, perhaps the interesting question to ask is what has caused that change. Is it a counter reaction to the individualism preached by my generation, or is it social media putting the youth under more pressure than ever to conform? If it's the latter then it seems companies viewed as fashionable are likely to continue to take market share from competitors which are not. But if it's the former then perhaps this current obsession with having the latest iPhone will soon be replaced by people just wanting something basic that does what they need, but doesn't make a statement.
I think to be bullish on Apple I think you need to have an opinion on that.
That's a weird bubble people have put themselves in, but isn't a rough economy going to have the opposite effect, that people will take a harder look and realize it's all marketing BS and phones are all pretty much the same now? In other words, it's expensive to let yourself be taken in by the idea of a possession being a status symbol so it's one of the first thing to go when it stops making sense.
I don’t think I could be more in disagreement and Apple’s third straight quarter of falling sales seems to support that. At some point everyone has a phone that is good enough and no one cares what phone you have. I feel the same way about Tesla now and see a lot of parallels. I sold mine and I really don’t see it as the status symbol it used to be. There are lots of Teslas around, they even look kind of dated now. And who wants to be associated with Elon or the tons of lame people that just got a Tesla as a status symbol? I’m looking with anticipation at the new Volvo EX30 EV that starts at 35k.
I can see something similar happening with phones except a new iPhone has no revolutionary technology like an EV does to entice someone. My iPhone 12 Mini works awesome and will be pried out of my cold dead hands, since they have stopped making small phones.
Cosmetic changes like different colors and materials make it possible to distinguish who has the latest model and who has last year's as well as between the base and the pro models. It may seem pretty subtle, but status signaling is often subtle at the high end.
I'm not trying to argue that most people upgrade yearly. I don't have any knowledge or opinion about that. I'm also not saying people only buy iphones for status. I have one myself, for pragmatic reasons. I'm just pointing out that a majority of people owning a particular brand doesn't mean people can't signal status with that brand. They can still do it by owning particular models. You see this all the time with cars. The a new high-end Lexus conveys status even though you see a lot of old beat up Lexuses being driven around by poorer people. The subtle design changes of iphones from year to year, I would argue, are meant to provide that same effect.
I'm also one of those individuals. While my iPhone 8 Plus is in need of replacement there is no way I will pay for the 15 Pro just to get proper high-speed USB-C... I'll wait for a 4th generation iPhone SE, the iPhone 16, or maybe just switch to Graphene OS (which would mean rejecting a lot of smartphone features and apps).
The benefit is that you can use any USB-C cable for charging. You can also use any USB-C cable for data transfer at low speed, which is what the iPhone supports.
With iPhone Pro, you can transfer at low-speed with any cable or high speed with USB3 cable. But most people would rather carry a cheap, light, 6 ft charging cable than heavy, expensive, 3ft for the rare case of transferring data.
The contextual parent asked, in response to a comment lamenting the they don't want to pay for the Pro iPhone model to get high USB speeds, why you need high speed USB-C outside of some niche cases related to video (where you are already bound to want the Pro model for the better camera). The response was that the main benefit (of high speed USB-C) is that you can standardize on USB-C cables.
But it is not clear why high speed USB-C cables are not compatible with the iPhone 15, which has USB-C but does not support high USB speeds. If it were, then the purported main benefit would also be found on that device, leaving the question to be unanswered and the attempt at a response nonsensical.
Not surprising. Phone upgrades in the last 5 years have been barely worth it. I'll be to first to criticize and mock The Google, but I've been plenty happy with my refurbished Pixel 5 that I not only plan on running it into the ground but getting another one if it finally croaks or loses too much battery capacity. Yes, I could just get the latest Pixel when that happens, but why switch from a phone that I know intimately that does everything I need?
Perhaps another contributor to the decline may be that the olds who didn't own a smartphone either have one by now or they're dead.
I'm on Apple's yearly upgrade plan and still don't bother. I'm not interested in a device larger than their mini form factor, and they keep a) killing the mini and b) making their devices larger. At the moment the mini I have is better than their SE offering. So why bother updating my phone?
And as you say, everything works fine enough for me, so there's no pressure for me to move off my stance.
I deeply miss the iphone 5 form factor, their current "mini" and SE are noteiceably bigger than that size. I'm guessing smaller phones don't get people lost in content as well as the larger ones, and that's why they're not being made anymore.
A number of years ago an observation I had was that people mostly binned into 2 clusters. One was people who tended to use their phone on the go & thus using it one handed, for instance while walking around. The other was people who tended to use their phone while sitting down and/or handing it off to their kids who were sitting down, so mostly 2 handed use. These two bins also corresponded with preference for smaller vs larger form factors.
At least in the US there are a lot more people in the 2nd category than the first.
I think you're right. Apple's solution to that problem is the Apple Watch. Buy a large phone that you use two-handed while sitting down, use your watch on the go.
I just got an Apple Watch earlier this year. I have a nearly four-year old iPhone SE2 that I love for it's smaller form factor. When I replace my phone I'm definitely going to get a larger phone, because after getting my watch I only use the phone while I'm sitting down and I'd prefer to have a larger screen.
I have an Apple Watch and as someone in the using it on the go category it's not sufficient. It either doesn't serve my purposes and/or is worse for most of what I use my phone for.
I'll catch up on emails, msgs, social media, HN, etc while walking to my next thing. I *could* do *some* of that on my watch but it's objectively worse experience wise.
As the technology matures, you don't really need to upgrade it every year. You can already see that the updates in phone are incremental. For a person updating their phone every 3 years, it's a big update but that's not the case anymore for a person upgrading their phone every year.
One issue is that your Pixel 5 won't get any more security updates (past October 2023). My wife's Pixel 4A is in the same boat - perfectly fine except no more security updates. Doesn't matter much right now, but will gradually start to matter over time.
That's true, though I kind of don't care. Many people of course do care. My risk tolerance is higher than most. I suspect companies like The Google hold security over people's heads in order to effectively inject code and encourage buying new phones. If I haven't installed new software in a very long time, and most of what I use is FOSS, and I rarely ever update my apps, and there's no reason to believe there's any vulnerability, then I'm pretty lukewarm on changing anything.
That said, I have been contemplating a migration to LineageOS, which would provide security updates beyond October 2023, and possibly make my Pixel 5 even better than it already is.
> That's true, though I kind of don't care. Many people of course do care. My risk tolerance is higher than most.
It shouldn't be - common smartphone malware attacks now steal banking info, personal info, and even look for sexting pics that are used as blackmail.
> I suspect companies like The Google hold security over people's heads in order to effectively inject code and encourage buying new phones
The former is nonsense but the latter is kinda true. Or rather, manufacturers bake the cost of updates into phones, which are already low margin devices. This encourages shorter lifespans, which is actually a problem for Google.
> there's no reason to believe there's any vulnerability
There's always going to be vulnerabilities. And, they'll likely come via web views, not through attacks directly on the app.
All it takes is a service you use that embeds a webview (tons of them), to get SCA'd or injection attacked, and you've got a huge problem.
They're not so common anymore, largely in part due to focused attention on that attack surface and continual software updates (!) via the playstore - google decoupled the webview rendering libraries from the os. Malware such as SpyNote/CypherRat is commonly a sideload attack, but occasionally webview rces have been used to deliver it and others.
But as mentioned above, webview malware is rare today, largely in part due to fast patching and updates!
And why does that problem roll downhill to me? If Google can't convince me to upgrade they should be supporting devices longer.
Obviously I know they won't, because they want me to stay on the upgrade treadmill to generate profits. And realistically, even if it's only a small chance, any security issues could potentially cause unauthorized access to my banks accounts or whatever, so the short term pain of upgrading is probably worth it.
But on principal, this should not be allowed. We desperately need laws in place that any product that is not perishable needs security support for at least 10 years. We're digging ourselves a hole of e-waste for no reason other than shareholders demand it.
The first Pixel is still getting updates if you install LineageOS https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/sailfish/ and I'd expect the Pixel 5 to similarly live on past Google's official end of life.
as a Pixel 4a owner myself, I was caught off-guard a bit that updates were EOL this fall "already"—the past three years have really flown by.
While I'd always previously driven either a pre-owned model or a new, on-production mid-grade, the announcement of the Pixel 8 road map with seven years of updates sealed the deal for me. I went the full monty for the Pixel 8 Pro with 1Tb storage.
It is a little big for most of my back pockets when I'm on the go, but since it's very close in dimensions to the Nokia 7.2 that I used prior to the 4a, it's already feeling quite natural in the hand.
And having the flagship optics package is pretty cool; something I'd always given up with the previous scheme.
But if the SLA had just been four or even five years I don't think I would have made the same choice.
(And don't even get me started on how the non-flagships have crap options for storage: 256Gb is not enough for active mobile users, but that's usually the cap unless you pop for the flagship. Grr.
I'm starting to get nostalgic for the early days of smartphones (2008-2014 or so), back then every year the phone you upgraded to was miles ahead of the previous generation device. I remember walking into the Apple store a few weeks after the iPhone 3GS came out and being blown away by the performance compared to my iPhone 3G.
Phones have gotten way better since then but they also became boring and commonplace. Back then all the power users either jailbroke if they were on iOS or installed CyanogenMod if they were on Android. My 3 fondest memories of that time were:
1. Getting BiteSMS on my iPhone 3G: BiteSMS was an alternative SMS app that offered quick replies, something the native messenger didn't offer until a year or so later. I felt so cool at school when my friends saw the pink logo on my dock instead of the green one.
2. Hacking Multitasking on the iPhone 3G: IIRC when iOS 4 came out alongside the 3GS, the 3GS has multitasking but they never backported the feature to the 3G. When I jailbroke iOS 4 on my device it gave me the option of enabling multitasking. Once I enabled it I realized why Apple didn't backport the feature, the 3G was so down on power compared to the 3GS that it completely crawled to a halt if you had more than 2 apps running.
3. Around 2011 I got a Samsung Galaxy S2 and after installing various ROM's and quite a bit of hacking I got Google Wallet to work on the device. I remember the first time I tapped my phone and paid for something it felt like magic. Now we all take it for granted with Apple Pay and Google Pay but back then there were barely any terminals to even tap your phone so getting to do that felt like black magic.
The processor is faster when compared to a 2017 phone and the camera is much better when comparing images side by side. I wouldn’t have noticed but I put a Motorola Android 2017 next to a iPhone SE 2020 and it became very noticeable.
Reading this thread reminded me to check my Pixel 5 (primary phone, purchased new just over 3 years ago) for updates. And to my surprise, there was a Android Security Update available which, now that it has been downloaded and installed, is dated Nov 5, 2023! Maybe that'll be the last one this phone gets, but maybe not.
Anyway, I'm perfectly happy with my Pixel 5 (aside from slightly declining battery performance, it's "as good as new"); I even bought a "excellent" refurb'd Pixel 5 9 months ago to use on a second/backup line (I was also thinking to use one or both for anticipated trade-in's on Pixel 8's, but with nominal updates all in the rearview mirror, Google's trade-in value has declined to negligible, so I plan to just keep using the 5's; the cost of the 8 vs it's value add was not compelling). 8GB RAM and 128GB of local storage is plenty for my needs, and I certainly don't want a bigger phone!
I basically ran my Galaxy S9 into the ground before replacing it last January. I replaced it with a Xperia 1 III because I didn't see the point of paying a extra $500 to get the IV. The new phone runs noticeably smoother than the old phone, but not by a game changing amount, nor by the amount one would have come to expect from about a 5 year leap forward in technology.
I bought refurbished iPhone SE 2nd gen from eBay for ~$130 in July 2023. Looks brand new. I use Chargie to extend battery life and a magnetic charging port adapter to eliminate charging port wear. When battery will wear out I’ll replace it with the one from iFixit. Let’s see for how long I can make this device last.
The latest versions of Android and iOS have finally built in battery management that does basically the same thing (they will not rapid charge over night, and will sometimes limit charge below 100%).
I'm curious to see long term how much these changes will help.
The Chargie is also useful if you want to set an arbitrary charge limit. iirc on Samsung you're stuck with 85%, can't change it.
Another key thing for the Chargie is that it will cut power after reaching its requested charge, and only resume charging again if power falls to a certain level. This prevents the "trickle charge to maintain the precise percentage" thing that is a real killer for batteries.
Latest version of LineageOS has a setting to limit charing up to a certain %, but also makes sure it hits the max when you wake up (based on your alarm).
I was so sure that my iPhone did that for me. I have setup one shortcut to send a notification when I reach 35% (to not go too below) and another one when I reach 85% (to not go too above). Since I'm in front of a computer all day, I never charge during the night anymore.
Nope! The iPhone SE (2nd edition) is still supported by the latest iOS version (iOS 17), and even when it isn't, Apple ship critical security updates for older iOS versions. My iPhone 6S (released 2015) is still getting security updates.
I just got the newest iPhone and I am struggling to notice any difference in capabilities from my old one. I know they exist on paper but when actually using the device it’s hard to tell.
It feels like it’s been this way for a while. I have friends that have very old smartphones, like 3 or 5 years, but they don’t mind.
If this was 10 years ago their smartphones would be practically unusable from a lack of processing power and battery life.
Phones are feature complete. No huge compelling reason to upgrade. If you work for a living then it makes no sense to spend money on upgrading if you already have a relatively newish phone
The last couple of times I upgraded, bloat in maps navigation was reason enough to upgrade to a faster phone. I don't want a sluggish UI while driving. Hoping Google doesn't cram much more ads or junk into the maps app or Waze.
OsmAnd is actually one of the main reasons I'm considering upgrading my phone. The 6GB memory in my P5a is apparently not sufficient to take a photo and not kill OsmAnd in the background...
Yeah Apple's Lidar sensor is one of the most compelling features on their phones. I'm seriously considering switching from Android to iPhone for the first time in my life in part because of it.
It improves general camera performance by having an accurate depth scan. Things like portrait mode and object recognition benefit.
The Measure app is quietly one of the most amazing apps in existence. You can get an accurate measurement of anything anytime! The lidar sensor makes it far more accurate and less finnicky than on the non-Pro phones.
Obviously on its own it’s not worth an upgrade but it’s a great sensor to have on a phone.
No, there still is a reason to need to replace a perfectly good phone, and it is purely software related. Manufacturers stop supporting their OS for phones, leaving you with something obsolete with lots of security holes. App makers enforce a minimum version of Android.
Even if you can unlock your bootloader and install a new version of Android OS, you will still get screwed over by SafetyNet, good luck installing any banking apps.
I know a number of people, myself included, who have been waiting for the return of decent mid-range phones before getting a new one.
Right now, there are very few options for people who want a reasonably sized phone, offering reasonably good performance, at a reasonably low cost, with reasonably good durability, with reasonably long software support, from a reasonably trustworthy manufacturer.
We desperately need 3.5-4 inch phones. My iPhone SE with 4.7 inch screen is too big to use comfortably (I can’t reach the opposite corner with thumb and I am a male with average size hands) and I also have Unihertz Jelly 2 which is 3 inch screen, which is smaller than you’d want, but not unusable. Where is the middle ground? The first iPhones with 3.5-4 inch screen were if a PERFECT size! Why can’t we make nice things anymore?
If it wasn't for the price I'd recommend a folding flip phone. I've had a folding phone for 2 years and all I have had to change out is actually the screen protector every year. It doesn't like the flexing, but they are cheap and take 5m to swap
In my experience, it's only one very specific type of person who wants that. Usually male (phone goes in front pocket) and older (at least older than gen Z, rarely watches videos on mobile devices). Uses smartphones more as a utility/tool instead of as an entertainment device.
Which fits that apple actually released another phone with that form factor after the 13 mini: the iPhone SE 3 is also this small and it is more recent than the 3 mini. I just didn't list it because I dislike the large bezel and I think from a performance perspective, it's strict worse than the 13 mini.
But that phone fits the demographic, because those people also don't switch phones every 2 years.
As people go longer between upgrades, phones depreciate less, the phones become more durable and better supported; their price sensitivity ought to go down not up.
I also don’t see all that much reason to wait when you can always get an old model of phone. I also see tons of competition at the mid-range of the market anyhow.
Phone sizes nowadays make me furious. I bought a Pixel 6 one year ago, because "on paper" it looked similar to my Pixel 3a. Just 1mm here, 1mm there. But it actually feels way much bigger and heavier in reality. Impossible to conveniently use it with one hand. (Not possible to verify at shop how it would feel, because all shops have those large anti-theft thingies glued to the phones).
Effectively, the Pixel 6 became my "tablet" at home (or a "camera" when travelling), and I still use Pixel 3a as the default on-the-go phone.
Yup, originally had Nexus One, found out it couldn't be upgraded after a couple of years because of the decision to make the installation space so small. Upgraded to Nexus 4. Battery expanded like a blowfish after a year. Bought a Nexus 5. The Gorilla glass wasn't as durable as my clumsiness confirmed. In between the 4 and 5, bought a Nexus 7 (I think, it was a pad device), it's display stopped working almost 1 year to the day.
Back to the Nexus 5, after dropping the 5 accidentally and destroying it, upgraded to a mid-range LG phone. Wow. It was great. Still works like 5 or 6 years later though 2 years after buying it, LG announced they would exit the smart phone business. That was a blow.
The LG will works but is slow now so the only option left was a Samsung phone, mid-upper range. About a year later so far so good but I had to disable a thousand crap apps they install and revert a thousand more crap default settings. Worse than buying a new Windows PC which is why I use Ubuntu Linux on my PC.
Upgrades these days have become so incremental that it doesn't make sense to upgrade as often.
I got my current phone (S23 Ultra) for the stylus and due to a preorder sale, but otherwise it's just as usable as the previous one and even the camera improvements aren't that meaningful nowadays, with the existing quality mostly being squandered by compression in messaging apps (especially in WhatsApp). I don't see myself wanting a new phone unless this one's screen gets damaged enough.
The only interesting development in phones to me is folding devices, but I think they're still a bit immature.
I just "upgraded" my phone and for the first time my new phone is worse than my old one.
I only upgraded because I noticed my old phone (Huawei P20 pro) was no longer getting android updates and I was concerned for the security of it.
My new phone (pixel 8) feels worse in almost every regard.
I can't even customise the home screen as much ( Literally cannot remove a link to Chrome and other google apps ).
Given it's 5 years newer, it doesn't even feel any faster or snappier, the P20 pro did a remarkable job at remaining fast and having decent battery life.
It's a lot lighter, but aside from that it feels like a downgrade.
If a 5 year old phone can still hold up against a new phone, admittedly not the top of the range pixel 8 pro, but a new phone nonetheless, then why would you upgrade every 2-3 years?
I had two P20s, probably my favourite phone I owned. Both died from water damage after about a year, which never happened to me with any other phone - not sure if I got unlucky or they have a particular design flaw here.
I was in a similar boat. My Galaxy S9+ was in its 5th year when I learned about the security update stoppage. I went for a midrange Pixel 6a that approximates the flagship of 2018. I'm not sure if this is due to getting used to the Samsung UX style after 9 years, but I find some choices Google made to be less intuitive or smooth, though I've gotten used to it. The only thing I maaay look for in my next phone which I don't currently haven't yet had is a 120hz refresh rate - but I might not want the extra power draw. So I'm satisfied. The extra battery life is a huge QoL improvement.
I upgraded my P20 pro to a Samsung S20FE, and it felt like a downgrade. My wife took over my P20pro, and she's still rocking it, more than 5 years later. The screen is cracked in a corner, but the phone trucks along like nobody's business.
That was a seriously underrated and good phone. I'm 2 years on my Samsung and I hate it so much.
> I can't even customise the home screen as much ( Literally cannot remove a link to Chrome and other google apps ).
Uh... I'm not following here. You definitely can. What are you trying to do, exactly? It's true you can't uninstall the apps, because they're in the ROM. But you can absolutely use whatever you want on your home page.
I have a pixe6 and the OEM launcher has a date at the top you can't remove or change and a google chrome search bar at the bottom that you cant remove.
You have to install a 3rd party launcher to remove them.
https://www.stuff.tv/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/07/Goog...
Well, OK. The Google launcher app has... a Google search bar. But again that's just an app, and you can change it. And have been able to for years and years. What's the actual complaint here? I mean, the original complaint was that you can't install your own apps on the home screen. So how is it wrong that the mechanism to do so is to... install your own app?
To be glib: The contention was that you can't change this stuff. And your response is "That's right, you can't change it! You have to CHANGE it to change it!". So... just change it?
"I can't even customise the home screen as much ( Literally cannot remove a link to Chrome and other google apps )."
I was simply clarifying the point the OP brought up. You literally cannot remove that search bar from the homescreen
https://support.google.com/pixelphone/thread/133065648/is-th...
And my point stands, with the Pixel launcher you cant change either of the features mentioned.
And an aside: Interesting how you made me and the OP sound deranged because we don't want to install a 3rd party service to customize the use of our phones. Great Convo
> And an aside: Interesting how you made me and the OP sound deranged because we don't want to install a 3rd party service to customize the use of our phones.
Fair enough, but I was trying to phrase it as a gentle joke.
I mean... you're trying to "customize" them to make them use "3rd party services"! That's the whole point! That's what you want! You want something not-Google, and you're mad that the mechanism to do so is to... not use the Google app.
I mean, you get that that's hilarious, right? Do you get likewise angry (maybe you'd say "deranged") that Microsoft has a Bing search bar on the desktop, or non-removable OneDrive integration in the file browser? That Apple sets you up with an account by default when you unbox your iPhone?
In point of fact, and being completely serious here: of all the major-vendor client platforms out there, Google Android is by far the most customizable in the sense of "removing the vendor's own app integration". Go try to swap your browser on iOS. I really don't understand why you're so upset.
Again I didn't mention any angst over the restriction I was simply reinforcing the OPs point that those items are not negotiable.
And I really don't see how the points you brought up are comparable. The bing search bar is removable and the iOS sign in is required for functionality.
The issue at play here are features that have nothing to do with functionality and are locked in eating up a large space on a limited space device.
This is just poor design from a UX perspective but great placement from a user habit and marketing perspective.
Its great that you degraded our comments/concerns as "hilarious" and that we are "angry" when the OP was simply sharing a subjective experience, with one part that is factually correct.
Just take the Chrome icon, hold it with your finger a sec, and drag it to the top of the screen where there's a box that says "remove" or something like that. That works for me on my Pixel
Yeah, I'm pretty happy with the latest SE model. Absolutely do not want a phone the size of the new flagship models. Prefer touchid to PIN or faceid, which rules out the minis.
Note the negative tone about having our phones actually work longer, last longer and be usable longer without draining our money just to keep the threadmill rolling.
Imagine how pissed the car industry must be now since most people drive cars for 10-15 years instead of replacing them once per few years like iPhones.
Except in actual reality EV battereis are pretty damn reliable and plugs are pretty standardized and wont change much at all for at least a decade or more.
In Europe is already standard. The US will switch to NACS but that's what most cars sold in the US already had and by 1-2 years from now all new cars will be NACS.
Can we please not spread weird conspiracy theories? EV battery replacements are vanishingly rare and nobody is secretly pushing EVs as a way to punish the public.
This point seems overrated. Service on a modern ICE car is pretty minimal, and I don't see it as something manufacturers really care about. Maybe dealerships, perhaps.
I've needed about 2 repairs on my 13 year old ICE vehicle over those 13 years, and one was under warranty. I think it'll need some more work soon, but still, it's not a lot of repairs.
As I posted elsewhere, I've always tracked my expenses. From 2011 to 2018, I spent about $2300 on maintenance and repairs. That's parts, labor and oil changes. And it was a 2003 car, so fairly old.
Look up reliable cars. Buy them used. It's much cheaper. I have the numbers going back to 2007.
Hell, I bought a new high performance vehicle. Drove it up to the dealership for its 5k oil change. They could easily have said "sure, no problem" and charged me $150ish for the privilege.
"Sir, unless you've been tracking the car and driving it very hard, 10K is the oil change interval. Sorry you wasted your trip".
I can't see how. New to new, a cheap ICE economy car can still run low $20s and your total fuel costs over 3 years will probably be under $2k. And even a cheaper EV like a Chevy Bolt won't make up the difference. It seems like the gap only gets worse when comparing higher up the price curve hybrids to their EV cousins.
I totally believe this if the vehicles have similar initial costs, and I can imagine that if the EV has higher re-sale value used, it might help too.
But I have a hard time seeing how you can make up the price difference between a relatively reliable compact hybrid and its EV version - take a Kia Niro (just because offhand I know it comes in EV and Hybrid): Hybrid is like $27k, EV is like $40k (though hybrid used to be more like $24k). If you own for 10 years what's going to eat that $13k difference? Just better resale in 10 years? Oil change once a year, a few medium repairs, and cost of gas vs electricity don't get you there.
Tempering my sibling comment, I could believe they probably have lower maintenance needs on more expensive stuff, but that's precisely who you're not selling with lower cost of ownership. I'm with you: my 10 year old car cost me 17k, and in the past 10 years I have spent no more than 7k on fuel. I've done annual oil changes, replaced a set of tires, and replaced a pump for windshield washer fluid one time.
My electric co. has a tool for estimating your monthly fuel savings: $15 monthly for me. That's probably the cost of food my toddler smashes up and throws on the floor in the same period.
National average electric cost is above $0.12 kWh, I think closer to $0.16, on top of that I think tiered pricing is common. And hybrids often beat 30 mpg.
For a car where electric is $40k and hybrid is $27k like a Kia Niro, it looks like your numbers would produce a payback period on the electric close to 10 years, but longer the less you drive. But that doesn't even get to including potential returns on the $13k saved at the beginning.
It is a ton more when the parent states how much cheaper and easier they are to manufacture. 100x fewer parts and yet they cost more? How does that make sense.
Because the resources to make batteries are expensive to mine and refine...
But come on, is it really that hard to believe? Look up the internals of an ICE and automatic transmission and compare those to an electric motor and single stage gear box.
We could debate over whether a battery pack is a single part or many, but still, those are completely potted and welded assemblies. Failures outside of normal wear are rare.
Do you track your car expenses? I do. Here are numbers from 2011-2018 for a used 2003 car:
Gas: $7200
Maintenance/Repairs: $2300
Note that maintenance includes things you'd do for EVs as well (e.g. new tires).
That's $9500 in 7 years.
Total spent on the car (including purchase price): $18500.
The extra cost of a comparably sized EV is significantly more than my gas and repair costs.
The numbers for my other cars is similar.
Sorry, not buying the koolaid.
I haven't included insurance, which will be a lot cheaper as well. For context, for my older car I pay $700/year for insurance, and that's with many of the benefits maxed out - I simply can't get more expensive insurance! For my other (newer) car it's more like $1200/year.
You got really lucky on your maintenance then. Unless you're doing the oil changes yourself, those alone should have run you at least $1,000 (and probably more because you should have been changing your air filters too). And it sounds like you never had to do brakes (which come up sooner on ICE cars because EVs have regenerative braking).
But to be clear you're an outlier. Most 2003 cars can't get away with such low maintenance costs.
I keep hearing this. I've apparently been lucky for 20 years and with 4 cars. I'm a really lucky guy.
Or, perhaps, I research which cars are reliable, and get a good mechanic to check them out before I buy them.
> Unless you're doing the oil changes yourself, those alone should have run you at least $1,000
In that time period, an oil change was $20-30. Yes, it costs a lot more for some cars (e.g. $80 for one of my other cars). Also, if you did it every 3 months or 3000 miles you've bought into the propaganda. Do it on the schedule specified in your car's manual. For all my cars, that's every 6 months, and 5000 or 6000 miles. For heavy usage (10,000 miles for non-heavy, but almost everyone falls into the "heavy" category).
Oh, and I'm not a big car guy. I know almost nothing about doing maintenance myself (other than adding wiper fluid). I do whatever the mechanic recommends. Find a good mechanic, and stay away from official dealerships.
> And it sounds like you never had to do brakes
On the car I quoted, I did. In 2014. Cost me under $420.
> Most 2003 cars can't get away with such low maintenance costs.
That car got totaled in 2018. So I replaced it with another 2003 car of similar miles as the one that was totaled. In the last 5 years I've spent $3000 on maintenance/repairs. That's more than the 8 years prior, but some of it is just due to inflation and labor costs. Oil change costs, for example, almost doubled.
Gas costs should be higher per year because gas is more expensive and the car I replaced it with is a lot less efficient. But at the same time, COVID brought gas expenses down (less driving). I average $1000/year in gas costs. I expect it will go up soon due to needing to drive more now.
> But to be clear you're an outlier.
Sure, I'm an outlier in that I actually track my expenses. Everyone I know who tracks auto expenses has turned out to be an outlier ;-)
Eh, I posted it and removed it, given that prior owned cars is often used by sites to verify identity.
Let's just say it's one of the top Japanese auto manufacturers.
Generally, Toyota and Honda will give you good results for their signature cars (Corolla, Camry, Accord, Civic). Subaru, for some years and models do as well. I think Mazda and Nissan are a tier lower, but there may be exceptions (in model/year combination).
One tip: Try to avoid cars with chains. That's an expensive, mandatory maintenance.
Except no one knows in what shape batteries will be in 10 years (current 10yo evs are no comparison). Usually there is a 8y guarantee on battery packs but wonder what that covers. Replacing batteries will be overly costly, if you can even get the parts and a mechanic to do it for you.
We have a pretty good idea at this point. Batteries should last longer than the average lifespan of the car. There will be a bathtub curve for sure, but generally, it's not a huge issue. My 2013 leaf battery still has 80% and while its an issue for the leaf and it's already dismal range, it's not a huge concern on cars that have 100s of miles of range.
> Imagine how pissed the car industry must be now since most people drive cars for 10-15 years instead of replacing them once per few years like iPhones.
They have been for years, Western markets have been saturated for years - that's the reason why especially the German carmakers shifted all their attention towards China, the only place left that has enough wealthy people to afford their cars.
> Note the negative tone about having our phones actually work longer, last longer and be usable longer without draining our money just to keep the threadmill rolling.
Indeed, it's a really positive development. Finally this market is pretty mature and one can buy something that isn't completely unsable within a couple of years of purchase.
My family of three phone users just upgrades our phones to whatever the lower end pixel is when they break (due to some accidental damage). Despite the horror stories, these phones have always been fine for us.
The last remaining barrier to this strategy (limited security updates from Google) is finally going away, so the future for "replace it when it breaks" looks even better.
I am unable to really afford an upgrade to my iPhone, still using the same model I bought at university ten years ago. It still works well, although it can be a little slow at times depending on the application that I am using. There is no value benefit to upgrading at this time.
For Android there may be for those who enjoy that operating system, but I do not enjoy Android so it is not a solution for me.
If you do anything where security might be a concern(like getting those 2fa SMS messages) you almost certainly want to upgrade to something that can still get security updates.
Phones 10 yrs old will have so many security holes it's not even funny.
I’m on the 13 Pro Max and this year and last year I said, “I’ll get the new one if there’s a killer feature that I can’t live without,” and while USB-C could theoretically be that, as pathetic as that sounds, I can’t find any reason whatsoever so upgrade. I like the titanium color, but my phone hasn’t seen the light of day in years because of the case so even that doesn’t matter.
That USB-C though would be nice so I’d finally have only one cable needed.
The upgrades these days are so minor or barely noticeable I can’t think of any reason why I’d upgrade. The only thing may be artery life or camera but that’s it.
The people have spoken they want big phones, I assure you that's not the reason they're not upgrading. Apple tried making a small phone, and there just wasn't enough interest to justify it. The trade offs, mainly battery life, just aren't worth the smaller screen, not to mention most OSs and apps are made with larger screens in mind.
My 12 Pro Max is basically the first phone that I don't feel compelled to upgrade even almost 3 years later. Besides the performance and the good enough camera, it also has proven remarkably resistant to the inevitable falls from a pocket/table with no broken glass so far.
I will wait for the next wave of edge-based AI applications that would take advantage of update Apple CPUs to upgrade. Probably in 12 to 24 months.
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[ 4.3 ms ] story [ 304 ms ] threadMy eyesight is going down the drain with age, so the only thing that might make me jump is getting a phone with a bigger screen.
I guess power users can look into foldables, but for the rest of us upgrading a phone that's less than 3 yo is only a marginal update. The prices are relatively high too, so it's hardly worth it.
I spend a decent amount of time in the backcountry and the satellite communication feature would at least bring some peace of mind, but even that is not enough to justify the cost of upgrading.
WhatsApp can become unusably slow for minutes at a time, apps I just used will close due to limited RAM; mind you I don't have a single game on my phone, I have bank apps, store apps, and messaging apps mostly, along with various utilities apps, like PW manager, smart home stuff, and various productivity apps (MS, Google suites). Nothing feels like it should be this terrible, and yet somehow its become a little too slow and jittery.
Apple is the only company that has been able to turn a smartphone into 'Nike Jordans'.
They had people waiting outside at midnight, they have people buying the phone for the logo, they have people buying the phone for the location of the cameras.
In the short term, I only see Apple as the company that does well during this next bumpy economy. Everyone else is selling phones to be phones. Apple is selling phones to fill a social role among status seekers. One of the most brilliant marketing idea's I've seen in my lifetime.
Not to mention, the vendor lock-in makes it incredibly difficult to leave. I only worry about anti-trust.
Granted, I got a Pixel 8 this year, but mostly because my old phone was falling apart at the seam. I planned to design my own skin if only to incentivize me to not take off armoring from my phone.
Particularly weird given that a) Apple devices stay in service much longer than competitors, b) Apple sales swooned as well. It turns out that people are pretty satisfied with their devices.
The system seems perfect.
Sorry, but this just isn't true, loan or not.
Being bullish on excess capitalism during a slow down doesn't seem like a no-brainer play to me.
But to each their own.
Realistically, I'm just not sure how much growth Apple has left unless India becomes a gigantic market and pulls of a China miracle of its own.
It's already by a large margin the largest private company in the world...
First thing, Apple is the smallest loser in this upgrade cycle. Being only downed 11% compared to downed 37% for Google.
Second, the only manufacturer growing is Motorola. Not Pixel/Next.
https://9to5google.com/2023/07/28/google-pixel-us-q2-2023-sh...
> But, despite Android as a whole losing ground, Google Pixel phones are becoming a bigger slice of the US market.
https://www.androidpolice.com/smartphone-sales-slump-google-...
> Smartphone sales are slumping this year, but not for Google
https://www.androidpolice.com/alphabet-google-q4-2022-earnin...
> Pichai went on to note that Pixels “gained share in every market” Google operated in this year.
(The funniest thing is when folks on some Thinkpad or Dell think their machine has a comparable quality… It really doesn’t. You might not care in much the same way someone might care or not care about Tesla’s historically poor fitment, but there’s a real difference regardless).
Returned it immediately been using Apple laptops ever since.
Well this doesn't explain why a person is upgrading from last year's model, which effectively does every single thing just as well.
The status symbol feature is what makes people upgrade _when they don't need to_. Apple has that, other manufacturers don't.
The vast majority of Apple users don't upgrade year over year. Those that do generally take advantage of fantastic resale values to get the upgrade at little price.
And are you claiming that Samsung or Pixel owners aren't doing the same? I know a number of peers who buy whatever is the newest, and it certainly isn't limited to Apple users.
I agree with that. But young people - for whom status symbols carry the most weight - generally upgrade their iphone in less than two years at a clip of ~50%.
> And are you claiming that Samsung or Pixel owners aren't doing the same?
I didn't claim that. I don't know. But it's less of an investment and far less of a status symbol.
Can you cite your source? Like what does "young people" mean? Many young people with iPhones have old devices with broken screens. I can find a Gallup survey from 7 years ago claiming an upgrade rate every 2 years (actually they answered "whatever my provider supports", which isn't as relevant now), but notably the differences were much bigger between generations in 2015. Now many would be hard pressed to differentiate an XR from a 15.
"I didn't claim that."
You literally said "Apple has that, other manufacturers don't.". It's simply untrue. My wife has an XR and I cannot convince her to upgrade as she just doesn't want the hassle of moving to a new device. And of course that XR still gets the latest OS, updates, supports all apps, etc, quite a contrast from many competitors...
"But it's less of an investment"
Many Samsung devices are more expensive than Apple devices. Pixel 8 devices are similarly priced. As to the status claim, it's amazing how much more of a status thing non-Apple device holders make about their choice than people just choose a very good quality, high performance, well and long supported Apple device...
Sure. 18-24
https://www.phonearena.com/news/How-long-do-iPhone-users-tak...
There are much better sounding headphones/earplugs, ie Sennheiser.
Apple does fine products (and their share of fails), but their secret sauce is a mix of PR, timing, brilliant leadership, and tons of luck with ie that timing to market. Hardware quality is good, but that's true for literally everybody in the field and is definitely not the differentiating factor these days.
You need to include vertical integration and design in their secret sauce. Everybody else has been struggling to catch up ever since the iPod came out, and IMO they have not caught up yet.
And that's probably what most people want, or think they want.
Adidas trainers can be described as a fashion item purchased by people who just want the logo. I buy Adidas trainers because I've learned they fit my foot shape better than most and last longer than cheaper brands I've tried. Similarly I've tried a couple android phones and ended up on iPhones.
The reason I don't see myself owning anything but a Macbook for my personal computing is because, having owned many Windows PCs and spent decades now trying on-and-off to make Linux work for the desktop, Apple makes the best laptops I've ever owned. They're not perfect; I've run into multiple keyboard failures over the years, but that's pretty much the only serious flaw I've encountered. The macOS UI has remained incredibly consistent in contrast to pretty much every other OS, and I've seen a tremendous improvement with Apple Silicon being added to Macbooks. Repairs and replacements are less expensive for me now because the last few generations of Macbook Air satisfy all my needs, whereas I used to need a Macbook Pro.
I'd be bullish on Apple not because of social status, but because they're a well run company that provides clear value to its customers. Many of us may disagree with the choices they make, but Apple makes most of those choices very rationally. Social status is worthless the minute people no longer care see Apple as providing them that status. Hardware and software ecosystems, on the other hand, don't become worthless overnight unless you're in the pager business.
Obviously it was always the case to some extent that the latest Apple gadget or Nike trainers were seen as trendy, but GenZ specifically seem to have taken this to a whole new level where it's actively damaging to one's self image not to have an iPhone or a nice pair of white Nike trainers.
Given this, perhaps the interesting question to ask is what has caused that change. Is it a counter reaction to the individualism preached by my generation, or is it social media putting the youth under more pressure than ever to conform? If it's the latter then it seems companies viewed as fashionable are likely to continue to take market share from competitors which are not. But if it's the former then perhaps this current obsession with having the latest iPhone will soon be replaced by people just wanting something basic that does what they need, but doesn't make a statement.
I think to be bullish on Apple I think you need to have an opinion on that.
I can see something similar happening with phones except a new iPhone has no revolutionary technology like an EV does to entice someone. My iPhone 12 Mini works awesome and will be pried out of my cold dead hands, since they have stopped making small phones.
You can get an iPhone for $20 a month or less from either Apple or the carrier.
Heck even the low cost MVNOs are offering a “free iPhone”.
Apple’s average replacement cycle hasn’t been every year for a decade if ever.
And if most people are upgrading yearly, why would Apple bother releasing security updates back to the iPhone 5s (2013) in the last year
With iPhone Pro, you can transfer at low-speed with any cable or high speed with USB3 cable. But most people would rather carry a cheap, light, 6 ft charging cable than heavy, expensive, 3ft for the rare case of transferring data.
But it is not clear why high speed USB-C cables are not compatible with the iPhone 15, which has USB-C but does not support high USB speeds. If it were, then the purported main benefit would also be found on that device, leaving the question to be unanswered and the attempt at a response nonsensical.
Perhaps another contributor to the decline may be that the olds who didn't own a smartphone either have one by now or they're dead.
And as you say, everything works fine enough for me, so there's no pressure for me to move off my stance.
At least in the US there are a lot more people in the 2nd category than the first.
I just got an Apple Watch earlier this year. I have a nearly four-year old iPhone SE2 that I love for it's smaller form factor. When I replace my phone I'm definitely going to get a larger phone, because after getting my watch I only use the phone while I'm sitting down and I'd prefer to have a larger screen.
I'll catch up on emails, msgs, social media, HN, etc while walking to my next thing. I *could* do *some* of that on my watch but it's objectively worse experience wise.
That said, I have been contemplating a migration to LineageOS, which would provide security updates beyond October 2023, and possibly make my Pixel 5 even better than it already is.
It shouldn't be - common smartphone malware attacks now steal banking info, personal info, and even look for sexting pics that are used as blackmail.
> I suspect companies like The Google hold security over people's heads in order to effectively inject code and encourage buying new phones
The former is nonsense but the latter is kinda true. Or rather, manufacturers bake the cost of updates into phones, which are already low margin devices. This encourages shorter lifespans, which is actually a problem for Google.
> there's no reason to believe there's any vulnerability
There's always going to be vulnerabilities. And, they'll likely come via web views, not through attacks directly on the app.
All it takes is a service you use that embeds a webview (tons of them), to get SCA'd or injection attacked, and you've got a huge problem.
> All it takes is a service you use that embeds a webview (tons of them), to get SCA'd or injection attacked, and you've got a huge problem.
Can you provide some evidence of these attacks actually being used in the wild?
But as mentioned above, webview malware is rare today, largely in part due to fast patching and updates!
In your opinion.
> The former is nonsense but the latter is kinda true.
What exactly do you think happens when a security update is performed? New code is installed on the host.
> There's always going to be vulnerabilities.
Yes. I should have said something like "exploit in-use" instead.
Obviously I know they won't, because they want me to stay on the upgrade treadmill to generate profits. And realistically, even if it's only a small chance, any security issues could potentially cause unauthorized access to my banks accounts or whatever, so the short term pain of upgrading is probably worth it.
But on principal, this should not be allowed. We desperately need laws in place that any product that is not perishable needs security support for at least 10 years. We're digging ourselves a hole of e-waste for no reason other than shareholders demand it.
You own the phone.
While I'd always previously driven either a pre-owned model or a new, on-production mid-grade, the announcement of the Pixel 8 road map with seven years of updates sealed the deal for me. I went the full monty for the Pixel 8 Pro with 1Tb storage.
It is a little big for most of my back pockets when I'm on the go, but since it's very close in dimensions to the Nokia 7.2 that I used prior to the 4a, it's already feeling quite natural in the hand.
And having the flagship optics package is pretty cool; something I'd always given up with the previous scheme.
But if the SLA had just been four or even five years I don't think I would have made the same choice.
(And don't even get me started on how the non-flagships have crap options for storage: 256Gb is not enough for active mobile users, but that's usually the cap unless you pop for the flagship. Grr.
Phones have gotten way better since then but they also became boring and commonplace. Back then all the power users either jailbroke if they were on iOS or installed CyanogenMod if they were on Android. My 3 fondest memories of that time were:
1. Getting BiteSMS on my iPhone 3G: BiteSMS was an alternative SMS app that offered quick replies, something the native messenger didn't offer until a year or so later. I felt so cool at school when my friends saw the pink logo on my dock instead of the green one.
2. Hacking Multitasking on the iPhone 3G: IIRC when iOS 4 came out alongside the 3GS, the 3GS has multitasking but they never backported the feature to the 3G. When I jailbroke iOS 4 on my device it gave me the option of enabling multitasking. Once I enabled it I realized why Apple didn't backport the feature, the 3G was so down on power compared to the 3GS that it completely crawled to a halt if you had more than 2 apps running.
3. Around 2011 I got a Samsung Galaxy S2 and after installing various ROM's and quite a bit of hacking I got Google Wallet to work on the device. I remember the first time I tapped my phone and paid for something it felt like magic. Now we all take it for granted with Apple Pay and Google Pay but back then there were barely any terminals to even tap your phone so getting to do that felt like black magic.
Anyway, I'm perfectly happy with my Pixel 5 (aside from slightly declining battery performance, it's "as good as new"); I even bought a "excellent" refurb'd Pixel 5 9 months ago to use on a second/backup line (I was also thinking to use one or both for anticipated trade-in's on Pixel 8's, but with nominal updates all in the rearview mirror, Google's trade-in value has declined to negligible, so I plan to just keep using the 5's; the cost of the 8 vs it's value add was not compelling). 8GB RAM and 128GB of local storage is plenty for my needs, and I certainly don't want a bigger phone!
https://chargie.org/
The latest versions of Android and iOS have finally built in battery management that does basically the same thing (they will not rapid charge over night, and will sometimes limit charge below 100%).
I'm curious to see long term how much these changes will help.
Another key thing for the Chargie is that it will cut power after reaching its requested charge, and only resume charging again if power falls to a certain level. This prevents the "trickle charge to maintain the precise percentage" thing that is a real killer for batteries.
I kinda like this strategy
It feels like it’s been this way for a while. I have friends that have very old smartphones, like 3 or 5 years, but they don’t mind.
If this was 10 years ago their smartphones would be practically unusable from a lack of processing power and battery life.
I have one and I do love it but the only innovations I'm interested in going forward are:
- get rid of the camera hump, make it a true slab (even if that means smaller/fewer cameras) - engineer away Dynamic Island.
Then it's really done with this form-factor, and I'll be waiting for holographic projection out of my watch.
They kept adding new features every year but once most people who had a sewing machine sales tanked.
The LiDAR on the iPhone is faster but produces less detailed models. Photogrammetry is slower but produces higher resolution models [1].
I don't know if I would drop $1000+ just for that though.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN_4BnzzRj0
It improves general camera performance by having an accurate depth scan. Things like portrait mode and object recognition benefit.
The Measure app is quietly one of the most amazing apps in existence. You can get an accurate measurement of anything anytime! The lidar sensor makes it far more accurate and less finnicky than on the non-Pro phones.
Obviously on its own it’s not worth an upgrade but it’s a great sensor to have on a phone.
Even if you can unlock your bootloader and install a new version of Android OS, you will still get screwed over by SafetyNet, good luck installing any banking apps.
Right now, there are very few options for people who want a reasonably sized phone, offering reasonably good performance, at a reasonably low cost, with reasonably good durability, with reasonably long software support, from a reasonably trustworthy manufacturer.
I think that's the biggest problem. If you accept >6" screens, you'll find a phone that hits most of those criteria. But if you want a smaller phone?
iPhone 13 mini from 2021 or Pixel 4a from 2020. And I still would call those large, one-handing those screens is uncomfortable even with large hands.
You want an actual small phone, around 5", like the early iPhones? Fucking XZ2 Compact from early 2018. At least Linage still supports it...
I really need to one-hand my phone.
The trouble is nobody buys them, if they did then Apple wouldn't have dropped it from their range.
In my experience, it's only one very specific type of person who wants that. Usually male (phone goes in front pocket) and older (at least older than gen Z, rarely watches videos on mobile devices). Uses smartphones more as a utility/tool instead of as an entertainment device.
Which fits that apple actually released another phone with that form factor after the 13 mini: the iPhone SE 3 is also this small and it is more recent than the 3 mini. I just didn't list it because I dislike the large bezel and I think from a performance perspective, it's strict worse than the 13 mini.
But that phone fits the demographic, because those people also don't switch phones every 2 years.
I also don’t see all that much reason to wait when you can always get an old model of phone. I also see tons of competition at the mid-range of the market anyhow.
Effectively, the Pixel 6 became my "tablet" at home (or a "camera" when travelling), and I still use Pixel 3a as the default on-the-go phone.
Back to the Nexus 5, after dropping the 5 accidentally and destroying it, upgraded to a mid-range LG phone. Wow. It was great. Still works like 5 or 6 years later though 2 years after buying it, LG announced they would exit the smart phone business. That was a blow.
The LG will works but is slow now so the only option left was a Samsung phone, mid-upper range. About a year later so far so good but I had to disable a thousand crap apps they install and revert a thousand more crap default settings. Worse than buying a new Windows PC which is why I use Ubuntu Linux on my PC.
I got my current phone (S23 Ultra) for the stylus and due to a preorder sale, but otherwise it's just as usable as the previous one and even the camera improvements aren't that meaningful nowadays, with the existing quality mostly being squandered by compression in messaging apps (especially in WhatsApp). I don't see myself wanting a new phone unless this one's screen gets damaged enough.
The only interesting development in phones to me is folding devices, but I think they're still a bit immature.
It’s a very interesting question, hardware wise, on what it would take to make a new device interesting…
I only upgraded because I noticed my old phone (Huawei P20 pro) was no longer getting android updates and I was concerned for the security of it.
My new phone (pixel 8) feels worse in almost every regard.
I can't even customise the home screen as much ( Literally cannot remove a link to Chrome and other google apps ).
Given it's 5 years newer, it doesn't even feel any faster or snappier, the P20 pro did a remarkable job at remaining fast and having decent battery life.
It's a lot lighter, but aside from that it feels like a downgrade.
If a 5 year old phone can still hold up against a new phone, admittedly not the top of the range pixel 8 pro, but a new phone nonetheless, then why would you upgrade every 2-3 years?
That was a seriously underrated and good phone. I'm 2 years on my Samsung and I hate it so much.
Uh... I'm not following here. You definitely can. What are you trying to do, exactly? It's true you can't uninstall the apps, because they're in the ROM. But you can absolutely use whatever you want on your home page.
To be glib: The contention was that you can't change this stuff. And your response is "That's right, you can't change it! You have to CHANGE it to change it!". So... just change it?
Fair enough, but I was trying to phrase it as a gentle joke.
I mean... you're trying to "customize" them to make them use "3rd party services"! That's the whole point! That's what you want! You want something not-Google, and you're mad that the mechanism to do so is to... not use the Google app.
I mean, you get that that's hilarious, right? Do you get likewise angry (maybe you'd say "deranged") that Microsoft has a Bing search bar on the desktop, or non-removable OneDrive integration in the file browser? That Apple sets you up with an account by default when you unbox your iPhone?
In point of fact, and being completely serious here: of all the major-vendor client platforms out there, Google Android is by far the most customizable in the sense of "removing the vendor's own app integration". Go try to swap your browser on iOS. I really don't understand why you're so upset.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CCLACBW027SBOG
https://www.tomsguide.com/news/iphone-subscription-service
i.e.: https://www.sprint.com/en/support/sprint-flex-lease.html
(Not a “grrr, smartphones” post, just a sad reality post)
I think that's where we're at now, there's no feature you NEED, just occasional upgrades that you can put off if you want for form factor alone.
Imagine how pissed the car industry must be now since most people drive cars for 10-15 years instead of replacing them once per few years like iPhones.
In Europe is already standard. The US will switch to NACS but that's what most cars sold in the US already had and by 1-2 years from now all new cars will be NACS.
Look up reliable cars. Buy them used. It's much cheaper. I have the numbers going back to 2007.
Hell, I bought a new high performance vehicle. Drove it up to the dealership for its 5k oil change. They could easily have said "sure, no problem" and charged me $150ish for the privilege.
"Sir, unless you've been tracking the car and driving it very hard, 10K is the oil change interval. Sorry you wasted your trip".
In your world, they would have taken my money.
But I have a hard time seeing how you can make up the price difference between a relatively reliable compact hybrid and its EV version - take a Kia Niro (just because offhand I know it comes in EV and Hybrid): Hybrid is like $27k, EV is like $40k (though hybrid used to be more like $24k). If you own for 10 years what's going to eat that $13k difference? Just better resale in 10 years? Oil change once a year, a few medium repairs, and cost of gas vs electricity don't get you there.
My electric co. has a tool for estimating your monthly fuel savings: $15 monthly for me. That's probably the cost of food my toddler smashes up and throws on the floor in the same period.
Same mileage, 3.5mi/kWh, $0.12/kWh, that's $445.71/yr.
For a car where electric is $40k and hybrid is $27k like a Kia Niro, it looks like your numbers would produce a payback period on the electric close to 10 years, but longer the less you drive. But that doesn't even get to including potential returns on the $13k saved at the beginning.
But come on, is it really that hard to believe? Look up the internals of an ICE and automatic transmission and compare those to an electric motor and single stage gear box.
We could debate over whether a battery pack is a single part or many, but still, those are completely potted and welded assemblies. Failures outside of normal wear are rare.
Gas: $7200 Maintenance/Repairs: $2300
Note that maintenance includes things you'd do for EVs as well (e.g. new tires).
That's $9500 in 7 years.
Total spent on the car (including purchase price): $18500.
The extra cost of a comparably sized EV is significantly more than my gas and repair costs.
The numbers for my other cars is similar.
Sorry, not buying the koolaid.
I haven't included insurance, which will be a lot cheaper as well. For context, for my older car I pay $700/year for insurance, and that's with many of the benefits maxed out - I simply can't get more expensive insurance! For my other (newer) car it's more like $1200/year.
Oh, and the TCO on Edmunds is full of $h*t.
But to be clear you're an outlier. Most 2003 cars can't get away with such low maintenance costs.
I keep hearing this. I've apparently been lucky for 20 years and with 4 cars. I'm a really lucky guy.
Or, perhaps, I research which cars are reliable, and get a good mechanic to check them out before I buy them.
> Unless you're doing the oil changes yourself, those alone should have run you at least $1,000
In that time period, an oil change was $20-30. Yes, it costs a lot more for some cars (e.g. $80 for one of my other cars). Also, if you did it every 3 months or 3000 miles you've bought into the propaganda. Do it on the schedule specified in your car's manual. For all my cars, that's every 6 months, and 5000 or 6000 miles. For heavy usage (10,000 miles for non-heavy, but almost everyone falls into the "heavy" category).
Oh, and I'm not a big car guy. I know almost nothing about doing maintenance myself (other than adding wiper fluid). I do whatever the mechanic recommends. Find a good mechanic, and stay away from official dealerships.
> And it sounds like you never had to do brakes
On the car I quoted, I did. In 2014. Cost me under $420.
> Most 2003 cars can't get away with such low maintenance costs.
That car got totaled in 2018. So I replaced it with another 2003 car of similar miles as the one that was totaled. In the last 5 years I've spent $3000 on maintenance/repairs. That's more than the 8 years prior, but some of it is just due to inflation and labor costs. Oil change costs, for example, almost doubled.
Gas costs should be higher per year because gas is more expensive and the car I replaced it with is a lot less efficient. But at the same time, COVID brought gas expenses down (less driving). I average $1000/year in gas costs. I expect it will go up soon due to needing to drive more now.
> But to be clear you're an outlier.
Sure, I'm an outlier in that I actually track my expenses. Everyone I know who tracks auto expenses has turned out to be an outlier ;-)
Let's just say it's one of the top Japanese auto manufacturers.
Generally, Toyota and Honda will give you good results for their signature cars (Corolla, Camry, Accord, Civic). Subaru, for some years and models do as well. I think Mazda and Nissan are a tier lower, but there may be exceptions (in model/year combination).
One tip: Try to avoid cars with chains. That's an expensive, mandatory maintenance.
In the US they're converging to NACS and the adapter for it is cheap...
At least use correct arguments against EVs
They have been for years, Western markets have been saturated for years - that's the reason why especially the German carmakers shifted all their attention towards China, the only place left that has enough wealthy people to afford their cars.
The car market has not been saturated since 2020.
Indeed, it's a really positive development. Finally this market is pretty mature and one can buy something that isn't completely unsable within a couple of years of purchase.
My family of three phone users just upgrades our phones to whatever the lower end pixel is when they break (due to some accidental damage). Despite the horror stories, these phones have always been fine for us.
The last remaining barrier to this strategy (limited security updates from Google) is finally going away, so the future for "replace it when it breaks" looks even better.
I’m still using a phone bought in 2018. Apple was handing out free battery replacements due to “battery gate” so that extended its use considerably.
For Android there may be for those who enjoy that operating system, but I do not enjoy Android so it is not a solution for me.
Phones 10 yrs old will have so many security holes it's not even funny.
That USB-C though would be nice so I’d finally have only one cable needed.
I will wait for the next wave of edge-based AI applications that would take advantage of update Apple CPUs to upgrade. Probably in 12 to 24 months.