Watch the first few minutes of this video about the bombing in Gaza. Just as I was horrified by what Hamas did, I'm perhaps more horrified that my country the US is providing weapons that are leading to civilian bombing that destroys apartment buildings with people inside them. It has to stop. Just watch a couple of minutes of the video to get the gist. Yes, Hamas is horrible and deserves destruction. And Yes, the civilians of Gaza deserve not to be killed step by step. Do we bomb a building to try kill one person? I don't know the solution but this isn't it. I sent letters to my US rep and Senators.
Pressure egypt to let people flee? Have the US take in the 2 million people? These are 2 of the many ways to enable non combatants to get out of the area.
If one's solutions are built around preventing them from fleeing a war zone, one doesn't really care about them.
Oh, all of those starving Arabs seem to have gone, not sure why, I guess we'll have to take this strip of rubble and corpses, just to clean it up you understand. Oh look, there's some oil [1], would be a shame to leave it in the ground ...
Israels officials have not been shy about their plans for tent cities on the Sinai peninsula while they conduct their military operations, however they have yet to promise the right to return ones their military objectives are over. They have also been very unrealistic about their military objectives so in theory it could go on for years.
Also given the history of the Nakba where Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from big parts of historic Palestine, there is no wonder why 2 million Palestinians are reluctant to leave their homes again.
In other words, removing Gazans from the strip is not a solution.
> there is no wonder why 2 million Palestinians are reluctant to leave their homes again
How do you know they're reluctant ? If Germany called them in like they did the Syrians are you sure none would come? Seems like the vast majority of Syrians in Europe have no intention of going back so its not like Arabs/Muslims are immune to the concept of leaving.
I won't argue that no one will admit to want to leave (Hamas may shoot people even for leaving bombed areas, let alone totally leave the strip), but deep down I won't be surprised if many want to leave. I also won't be surprised if given a safe passage and a visa for them and their families - many would actually leave. Right now Hamas/Egypt won't allow it and probably Europeans aren't too keen on this as well.
> leave their homes again
Btw their narrative is that they're still refugees, so I'm not sure how they can see Gaza as their "home" but also want to "go back" to their old homes in what is now Israel.
> given the history of the Nakba where Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from big parts of historic Palestine
Being occupied, mistreated, droven away so that one "wants" to leave is all the same as being outright murdered: ethnic cleansing and genocide. You're essentially asking "but are you sure they know it's genocide, too? Are you sure they mind", and the answer is "it doesn't matter".
I'm not sure what you're talking about, this is not what I asked.
The Nakba doesn't explain much, it was 75 years ago and it seems ludicrous to me people would definitely stay somewhere because of stuff that happened 75 years ago.
Maybe some of them prefer Canada or Germany or Dubai, that doesn't sound crazy to me. And for sure some of them would prefer to stay, no matter what even. But we don't know that's the majority - the truth is they are prevented from leaving - first and foremost by Hamas.
I thought the West was pro taking in people who live in war zones, and I would hope a similar option would be available to Israelis if it came to that - which it very well may sooner or later. There's nothing guaranteeing Israel can survive, and if Israel ever loses what happened to Israelis on October 7th will look like peanuts.
> If Germany called them in like they did the Syrians
> Hamas may shoot people even for leaving bombed areas
Citing unsubstantiated rumors and conspiracy theories may indicate that you are not arguing in good faith. But I want to address your main talking point and clear what seems to be a misunderstanding on your part.
Many—if not most—Gazans do want to flee the war zone. They do want to seek shelter in a safe harbor where their safety is guaranteed. Many Gazans have family ties to refugees which have established them selves around the world, particularly in Europe, Canada and the USA. Currently they need to go through some bureaucracy to establish legitimacy (you can imagine how hard that is while bombs are dropping around you), then they need to flee south to Rafah (again through an active war zone, so pretty dangerous), and finally they need to bribe an Egyptian border guard. Before the war the bribe would cost somewhere between 2,000 - 3,000 € but could go as high as 10,000 €. I think today it is a bit cheaper but still in the order of hundreds to thousands of euros.
People are doing this because they are desperate. They are hungry and they are afraid, they want to go to a place where they can sleep a full night and have a warm meal at least once a day.
A non-existing theoretical camp city on the Sinai peninsula proposed by the very same people who are bombing their houses, that does not sound like such a place. If your aim is to find a safe harbor, then Egypt is not a reliable option (for most people; I’m sure there are some who have family or friends in Egypt willing to offer shelter).
Finally if you are a refugee, particularly if years pass before it is safe for you to return, it is highly likely that you establish a new life in your shelter and find a new community around it. You still have friends and family back home—and yes, you do call it home—which you would like to visit on occasion, but you may still want to keep your current life where you found the shelter. Any immigrant will tell you—refugee or not—that home is relative, and you can find a new home in a new location, while still seeing your old place as your home.
Are you arguing in good faith ? Do you have any facts that Hamas is not doing that ? There are quite a few accounts I've read that say this.
Fighting from within civilian areas is a core strategy of Hamas, and yes I've read Hamas would hold people at gunpoint to stay where they are and not flee.
All your second paragraph - we're actually agreeing and not arguing. It's way too difficult for Gazans to leave, that's why it's not happening in big numbers. That and Hamas violently preventing it now.
You are asking me to prove a negative. For obvious reasons I cannot do that. All I know—which is probably the same as you—is that there are rumors this is happening, as well as unsubstantiated claims from the Israeli military. HN is not a good platform to debate this. As for my second paragraph, I’m still countering this:
> Pressure Egypt to let people flee? Have the US take in the 2 million people? These are 2 of the many ways to enable non combatants to get out of the area.
This is not a solution. It is a plan which the Israeli government has been proposing since the start, first quietly among lower or retired official, then secretly via leaks, and finally from Netanyahu him self to western leaders (which were not fans).
Before I reiterate my main arguments against this solution, I think we should acknowledge the reality that this isn’t logistically feasible. There is no world where evacuating 2 million people from Gaza into a foreign country is going to go smoothly, especially during the one of the most brutal war since WW2.
Now back to my main argument. Obviously most Gazans want to flee the war zone. But many can’t, while more still don’t want to. With the uncertainty around the right to return this last category is gonna be pretty huge, like in the hundreds of thousands.
If you think it is reasonable to offer hundreds of thousands of civilians to become civilian casualties, I’m not sure what to think of you and your morals. Thinking like that is just something I cannot understand.
Finally I want to offer a third reason which is human rights under international law. What OP was proposing and you seem to be defending is ethnic cleansing which is a crime against humanity under international law (and is also one of the reason western leaders are not fans).
You may believe that Hamas is so bad that it is worth denying human rights to Palestinians, and offer them as collateral casualties. But I ask you, please, understand that Palestinians are humans, worthy of human rights, including life and dignity.
So, since mass evacuation is not a solution for the reasons stated above, I hope you can appreciate the reality of the situation and perhaps see that Israel simply cannot fight Hamas this way. If Israel wants to fight Hamas, they have to find another way. However bad you believe Hamas is, they are not worthy sacrificing the very values all nations agreed to after the horrors of WW2.
> they are not worthy sacrificing the very values all nations agreed to after the horrors of WW2.
I honestly don't understand what you mean.
Why did Europe take so many Syrians (and later on - Afghans, and now Ukranians), was that sacrificing the very values of all nations?
That's the opposite of the values you seem to be talking about. You seem to imply that Palestinians are somehow different form all other groups of people under war like Syrians, Afghans, Ukrainians etc.
It seems to me like the decent thing to do - no one can force anyone to evacuate but you seem to want to prevent everyone from evacuating even if they want to, that's a bizarre stand to take if you care about Palestinians or human rights in general.
I think you are talking about the right to asylum, which is a UN right but very lacking in implementations. I never ever so much as hinted that this right should be taken away from Palestinians. I don’t even know where in my text you could have gotten the idea that I said something like that, let alone that I wanted to prevent people from evacuating. That you would interpret my words this way, only reinforces my previous belief that you are not arguing in good faith.
No I want Palestinians to be able to live in their home without risking their lives and limbs. The way to do that is with ceasefire. The USA and Israel are the only two parties to this conflict who are preventing a ceasefire.
> Why did Europe take so many Syrians [etc.]
Previously you hinted at a conspiracy theory regarding this. As such I’m very reluctant to debate this with you. But to clarify, the values I’m talking about is that of life and dignity. Pretty much the international deceleration of human rights, and several international agreements that followed, such as the right of the child, prevention of genocide, etc.
Israel is breaking several of these in their war against Hamas. What I am saying is that they shouldn’t. Hamas is not worth breaking these agreements, both legally speaking, but much more morally speaking. What Israel has become is something very much worse than any terrorist organization can dream of.
> I think you are talking about the right to asylum, which is a UN right but very lacking in implementations. I never ever so much as hinted that this right should be taken away from Palestinians
OK good so we actually agree, I don't see we have an argument.
You're going on again and again about how Israel is bad, genocide etc it wasn't connected to anything I said at all so I'm not going to reply to that.
> it seems ludicrous to me people would definitely stay somewhere because of stuff that happened 75 years ago
Right, yet Israel was founded because of some (utterly cringe) stuff that (supposedly) happened thousands of years ago.
And what I am "on about" is that driving people out is genocide. You are not talking about whether they might like the climate in Germany or Switzerland more, but whether they might "prefer" to not be bombed and starved.
> I thought the West was pro taking in people who live in war zones
While we're sending arms to the parties committing genocide, which we don't mind, because we're "pro this one thing" with blinders on? That view is so simplicisist you should first ask if anyone even holds it, instead of demanding answers based on it.
> Israel blows up Gaza's "Palace of Justice" compound which housed the Palestinian Supreme Court, the Court of Appeal, the Court of First Instance & the Magistrate.
17 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 68.7 ms ] threadIf one's solutions are built around preventing them from fleeing a war zone, one doesn't really care about them.
[1] https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/6/21/palestines-forg...
Also given the history of the Nakba where Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from big parts of historic Palestine, there is no wonder why 2 million Palestinians are reluctant to leave their homes again.
In other words, removing Gazans from the strip is not a solution.
How do you know they're reluctant ? If Germany called them in like they did the Syrians are you sure none would come? Seems like the vast majority of Syrians in Europe have no intention of going back so its not like Arabs/Muslims are immune to the concept of leaving.
I won't argue that no one will admit to want to leave (Hamas may shoot people even for leaving bombed areas, let alone totally leave the strip), but deep down I won't be surprised if many want to leave. I also won't be surprised if given a safe passage and a visa for them and their families - many would actually leave. Right now Hamas/Egypt won't allow it and probably Europeans aren't too keen on this as well.
> leave their homes again
Btw their narrative is that they're still refugees, so I'm not sure how they can see Gaza as their "home" but also want to "go back" to their old homes in what is now Israel.
> given the history of the Nakba where Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from big parts of historic Palestine
Being occupied, mistreated, droven away so that one "wants" to leave is all the same as being outright murdered: ethnic cleansing and genocide. You're essentially asking "but are you sure they know it's genocide, too? Are you sure they mind", and the answer is "it doesn't matter".
> Hamas may shoot people even for leaving bombed areas
Citing unsubstantiated rumors and conspiracy theories may indicate that you are not arguing in good faith. But I want to address your main talking point and clear what seems to be a misunderstanding on your part.
Many—if not most—Gazans do want to flee the war zone. They do want to seek shelter in a safe harbor where their safety is guaranteed. Many Gazans have family ties to refugees which have established them selves around the world, particularly in Europe, Canada and the USA. Currently they need to go through some bureaucracy to establish legitimacy (you can imagine how hard that is while bombs are dropping around you), then they need to flee south to Rafah (again through an active war zone, so pretty dangerous), and finally they need to bribe an Egyptian border guard. Before the war the bribe would cost somewhere between 2,000 - 3,000 € but could go as high as 10,000 €. I think today it is a bit cheaper but still in the order of hundreds to thousands of euros.
People are doing this because they are desperate. They are hungry and they are afraid, they want to go to a place where they can sleep a full night and have a warm meal at least once a day.
A non-existing theoretical camp city on the Sinai peninsula proposed by the very same people who are bombing their houses, that does not sound like such a place. If your aim is to find a safe harbor, then Egypt is not a reliable option (for most people; I’m sure there are some who have family or friends in Egypt willing to offer shelter).
Finally if you are a refugee, particularly if years pass before it is safe for you to return, it is highly likely that you establish a new life in your shelter and find a new community around it. You still have friends and family back home—and yes, you do call it home—which you would like to visit on occasion, but you may still want to keep your current life where you found the shelter. Any immigrant will tell you—refugee or not—that home is relative, and you can find a new home in a new location, while still seeing your old place as your home.
All your second paragraph - we're actually agreeing and not arguing. It's way too difficult for Gazans to leave, that's why it's not happening in big numbers. That and Hamas violently preventing it now.
> Pressure Egypt to let people flee? Have the US take in the 2 million people? These are 2 of the many ways to enable non combatants to get out of the area.
This is not a solution. It is a plan which the Israeli government has been proposing since the start, first quietly among lower or retired official, then secretly via leaks, and finally from Netanyahu him self to western leaders (which were not fans).
Before I reiterate my main arguments against this solution, I think we should acknowledge the reality that this isn’t logistically feasible. There is no world where evacuating 2 million people from Gaza into a foreign country is going to go smoothly, especially during the one of the most brutal war since WW2.
Now back to my main argument. Obviously most Gazans want to flee the war zone. But many can’t, while more still don’t want to. With the uncertainty around the right to return this last category is gonna be pretty huge, like in the hundreds of thousands.
If you think it is reasonable to offer hundreds of thousands of civilians to become civilian casualties, I’m not sure what to think of you and your morals. Thinking like that is just something I cannot understand.
Finally I want to offer a third reason which is human rights under international law. What OP was proposing and you seem to be defending is ethnic cleansing which is a crime against humanity under international law (and is also one of the reason western leaders are not fans).
You may believe that Hamas is so bad that it is worth denying human rights to Palestinians, and offer them as collateral casualties. But I ask you, please, understand that Palestinians are humans, worthy of human rights, including life and dignity.
So, since mass evacuation is not a solution for the reasons stated above, I hope you can appreciate the reality of the situation and perhaps see that Israel simply cannot fight Hamas this way. If Israel wants to fight Hamas, they have to find another way. However bad you believe Hamas is, they are not worthy sacrificing the very values all nations agreed to after the horrors of WW2.
I honestly don't understand what you mean. Why did Europe take so many Syrians (and later on - Afghans, and now Ukranians), was that sacrificing the very values of all nations? That's the opposite of the values you seem to be talking about. You seem to imply that Palestinians are somehow different form all other groups of people under war like Syrians, Afghans, Ukrainians etc.
It seems to me like the decent thing to do - no one can force anyone to evacuate but you seem to want to prevent everyone from evacuating even if they want to, that's a bizarre stand to take if you care about Palestinians or human rights in general.
No I want Palestinians to be able to live in their home without risking their lives and limbs. The way to do that is with ceasefire. The USA and Israel are the only two parties to this conflict who are preventing a ceasefire.
> Why did Europe take so many Syrians [etc.]
Previously you hinted at a conspiracy theory regarding this. As such I’m very reluctant to debate this with you. But to clarify, the values I’m talking about is that of life and dignity. Pretty much the international deceleration of human rights, and several international agreements that followed, such as the right of the child, prevention of genocide, etc.
Israel is breaking several of these in their war against Hamas. What I am saying is that they shouldn’t. Hamas is not worth breaking these agreements, both legally speaking, but much more morally speaking. What Israel has become is something very much worse than any terrorist organization can dream of.
OK good so we actually agree, I don't see we have an argument. You're going on again and again about how Israel is bad, genocide etc it wasn't connected to anything I said at all so I'm not going to reply to that.
Right, yet Israel was founded because of some (utterly cringe) stuff that (supposedly) happened thousands of years ago.
And what I am "on about" is that driving people out is genocide. You are not talking about whether they might like the climate in Germany or Switzerland more, but whether they might "prefer" to not be bombed and starved.
> I thought the West was pro taking in people who live in war zones
While we're sending arms to the parties committing genocide, which we don't mind, because we're "pro this one thing" with blinders on? That view is so simplicisist you should first ask if anyone even holds it, instead of demanding answers based on it.
That's not even remotely close to what is going on. This is genocide, plain and simple.
https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/17317722618482647...
> Israel blows up Gaza's "Palace of Justice" compound which housed the Palestinian Supreme Court, the Court of Appeal, the Court of First Instance & the Magistrate.
> 100,000s of vital case documents are gone.
https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/17330661183302657...
> Israel blows up the Medical Faculty of the IUG to the south of Gaza city.
> This was NOT an airstrike, but explosives that soldiers planted in person there; meaning the buildings constituted ZERO security risk!