Its pretty sad isn't it? Decades ago I used to travel a lot and always brought a camera with me (SLR + lenses) - only ever 'saw' things thru the lens, missing the opportunity to be in the moment - I woke up to what was happening and now I rarely photograph places or events when I am experiencing them - if I want an awesome photo to look at of some noteworthy place or event, I can find thousands on line, many taken by people much more talented than me.
I feel like people don't really experience their lives anymore - they document them for social media and clicks.
Goto the L'ouvre in France, and there are hundreds of people waiting in line and jamming into the space in front of the Mona Lisa to get a picture of the painting (or more specifically selfies of them standing in a crowd with the Mona Lisa in the background) - and yet there are huge spaces and exhibits in the building of equally awesome pieces of art and history that people don't even bother to visit
I had a similar realization when going to one of the final Space Shuttle launches in 2010. I brought some fairly good camera gear along, but I saw people who had invested staggering amounts in cameras/lenses (or at least spent a decent chunk on renting them) and thought, I'll just watch the thing and then look at theirs if I want to see anything again.
> if I want an awesome photo to look at of some noteworthy place or event, I can find thousands on line, many taken by people much more talented than me.
100% would be neat if there was a service surfacing those.
On the other hand there is nothing wrong with a quick snapshot and then go on enjoy
I mean there's multiple ways to enjoy things. You enjoyed photography, then you realised you could also enjoy the trip / experience itself. Both are fine. And you can do both at the same time too.
I think tourists taking a picture or recording an event is not even for themselves anymore, it's to post online and get views/likes/engagement.
On the other hand, photography is a hobby on its own. A camera can push you to go out more, pay attention more. I started sketching again because someone reminded me that drawing is the art of noticing.
I gave up on photography because I found the camera to get in the way, but I'm not above taking a few good pictures for my own memories. I just don't let it interrupt the moment anymore.
I think that social media is the main culprit here. When proving that you have a good time becomes as important as having a good time, your behaviour changes.
I came to the same realization back in the 2000s and stopped obsessively photo'ing everything then too. You can either live in the moment or try to capture it, but rarely both. I'll still snapshot the occasional impressive sunset or other natural scene, but without trying to interpose a selfie on top of it.
I really enjoy a strenuous hike to a point of interest around sunset, setting up, and taking photos of the sunrise or sunset. But that's my personal time and I'm usually alone. On the flip side I usually only take (some) smartphone photos documenting the experience and the people when I'm out in a group. I like the "here's what you did N years ago" collages and reconnecting with the people involved over the shared experience.
Trying to combine both usually leads to someone being disappointed, either the photographer because they're rushed or the others because the photog is holding everyone up.
I feel like good photos take a lot of planning, time and some luck. But the chase inspires me to get out more and not do the exact same thing everyone else is doing (all the time) to get something even remotely unique. It also requires scouting the locations for a while and finding the right composition takes some exploring the area.
Plus, long exposure photography gives you a lot of time to be in the moment when every photo takes a minute to expose and you get to progressively watch the landscape and lighting change waiting for the right time to snap your photos.
I'm the opposite, 20+ years ago I visited places with people that are long dead by now. I can barely remember their faces. I'd love to have some photos from that time.
There was no smartphones back then :-) I think I had a blue Ericsson phone that had a tiny one color lcd display and no camera. Now, things are different, but my argument is specifically that taking photos is does not have to be in contrast to "living in the moment".
All of us that would not use our cell phones, and be in the moment, would also likely be home and comfy vs out in that experience. This is the new generation, whatever makes them happy! I'm thankful that I can put my phone down and disconnect.
I don't understand the shaming of how people choose to enjoy an event. Live and let live seems to be a much nicer way to enjoy life.
No one there is hurting anyone ... in fact all I see is a lot of people engaged in creating something: a video of their experience. Is it a good video? Maybe, maybe not, but it's their video.
Would I film it if I were there? Maybe? I don't know. I tend not to but I don't begrudge others who do.
but did they create a video of their experience? or did they just created the ten thousandth almost identical video that they could find online later and probably of better quality, just so they could post in on their social media to prove to people they were there?
Honestly, I don't care what people do, but some should try putting down the camera and enjoying the moment for a change and see if it changes their way of viewing things.
This is why the only thing I bother taking photos of is my kids/family. If I'm visiting Delicate Arch, will my photo of it be any better than one of the millions of others I could find instantly by googling? Will I return to that photo and enjoy it later? No. (Actually good photographers, feel free to ignore this comment).
As a long time amateur photographer, I agree. I had the DSLR, mirrorless, $10s of thousands in lenses, etc... But the reality is I can find a fantastic image of damn near any landscape in seconds.
So, instead I get candid photos of my kids and wife in the places we visit. I have yet to feel the need to lookup a photo of a landscape.
Ya I might not take a video or pictures of everything but all sorts of things have "on this day" these days. The pictures I have taken occasionally pop up and I remember the entire event. My phone (iOS) even makes little videos now and then that show the entire trip for me.
I'm not sure which is more sad really. Folks not "experiencing the moment", folks calling those people sad, or me on the next meta level up judging the people judging the people haha
Let people get their dopamine however they want to get it, internet, lmao
You’re in the Louvre, you’re in front of the Mona Lisa. It’s an amazing painting and it’s right there. And the person next to you is playing their gameboy.
It’s not about shaming them. It’s feeling regret that they are wasting this opportunity and missing something amazing.
Or I’m at breakfast with the most beautiful woman in the world and instead I don’t know she’s there and scroll through hacker news. I wouldn’t expect a person next to me to shame me for it, but I would expect them to recognize me wasting this opportunity.
In my examples, there could be many reasons why people would miss the beautiful thing for the banal. But in photos like this, there are 1000s missing the actual experience to record something vastly inferior than the experience.
I don’t think it’s shame. I think it’s empathetic regret and an urge to avoid doing this. I think it’s a bad thing for me to do. I want to do it less.
Almost the total opposite of "jealousy", but nonetheless an unpleasant
emotion more like "pity".
Pity is sometimes described as an "ugly" emotion. It presumes you're
in a better position to judge someone else. Getting over pity is a big
life step of getting over yourself. Grace and compersion rush into the
space left behind. Alexander the Great (probably a super genius) said
he admired Diogenes, and that if he wasn't himself - so in touch with
his own ambition - he'd like to be Diogenes, a man so in touch with
his ecstatic humility.
Anyway with respect to technological enslavement, I think it goes
deeper than "pity". I once saw a small child running around with a
tablet photographing everything and (probably copying a parent) saying
"I have to capture moments". That sent a fucking deep chill down my
spine.
> You’re in the Louvre, you’re in front of the Mona Lisa. It’s an amazing painting and it’s right there. And the person next to you is playing their gameboy.
What are they playing?
If it was "Link's Awakening" or "Gargoyle's Quest", I would understand. Those are works of art.
They don't appear to have a choice, they're all stuck doing the same thing every other person is doing. They have succumb to herd behavior and can't help themselves.
Just my opinion: being in a group where everyone is on their phone feels alienating, and often causes me to whip out my own phone just to shield myself from the awkwardness. Of course there is nothing wrong with looking at your phone and recording something. But when everyone is doing it enmass like that, how can it not change the group dynamic in some way?
Just imagine the end of a movie like "It's a Wonderful life" or some other movie that ends with a group celebration. Now change the ending by imagining everyone whipping out their phones to record the event. You know what I mean?
I don't know. Maybe people who grow up with this are more comfortable with it. Maybe it is a generational thing.
> being in a group where everyone is on their phone feels alienating
I agree - it's a terrible feeling. I also pick up my phone as a shield sometimes in these situations though I try to avoid it and just "enjoy" the awkwardness.
> when everyone is doing it enmass like that, how can it not change the group dynamic in some way?
I don't see people filming an event the same as being "on their phone". Not in the same way as everybody around a bar table checking WhatsApp, Instagram, Lemmy, whatever...
When I'm filming something, I can still be as present with the people around me as I am when not filming. I have distanced myself from the object of the film but not from my immediate surroundings. I can still sing the songs, talk to the group about the performance, etc.
Note that I also think it's bad when people spend a lot of their time watching a live event through their screens though. It can also be quite annoying for those of us behind them, especially if you're not a tall person, since it becomes even harder to actually see the live performance.
I recently met someone who is about to start a (psych) PhD on
"Awkwardness" and I had one of the most interesting conversations in
years.
Some people fear embarrassment more than life threatening danger. As
one of my favourite philosophers put it, terror management cannot be a
plausible theory because "people aren't afraid of dying any more,
they're afraid of being seen wearing the wrong trainers".
We should all try to understand "awkwardness" and social pressure
more, because I think it's role in widespread manipulation is
unrecognised.
There's something very, very powerful about being kinda resistant to
awkwardness without being a callous asshole who feels no shame and
delights in other people's discomfort.
One insight is that it's highly contagious. and its powerful to be the
chain-breaker who can spot it, name it, make a joke or otherwise
disrupt it. People really appreciate you for that.
When I am in a group of people who get phomo (that nervous wave of
synchronised checking and tapping) I just walk off now. I used to
stand there watching them all, but have since realised its me who
makes them feel terribly awkward. I don't feel awkward, I feel mildly
insulted.. but that's my baggage, so I just politely extricate.
Edit: Someone flagged this entire topic. Since I cannot find a single
untoward comment in the threads I assume they just felt awkward
about the whole discussion. QED.
Well, it's not like I always succeed at that but I'm trying! :D
It is a good feeling, to bring the instinctive monkey-like (lizard-like?) reaction of pulling up the phone to the foreground of the mind and taking intentional control of it. Even if the decision is to give in, as long as it's with intent, I'm fine with it - and in this case it's usually easy to put it back down.
> being kinda resistant to awkwardness without being a callous asshole who feels no shame and delights in other people's discomfort.
I do that to friends. Mostly on purpose. To be fair though, only to the friends with whom I'm intimate enough that I know they would do the same to me and it's out of love both ways. :)
> I just walk off now. I used to stand there watching them all, but have since realised its me who makes them feel terribly awkward.
I do that some times. That's not always an option in the example of the bar table with friends (or co-workers, etc). In any case, my experience is that the people who get inside their phones in this way are usually so oblivious to their surroundings that it doesn't matter. In these cases I try to just casually observe and learn whatever I can from the situation.
> I don't feel awkward, I feel mildly insulted
I used to feel that way too. I still do sometimes. Over the years though, I've been learning to get better at changing the way I reactively feel to situations based on what I know - in this case, that them being on their phones is not because of me (am I boring them? am I overly awkward and making them feel that way? am I ...?) but rather because they _need_ their phone fix. Note that I don't feel pity either. I don't think people should stop using their phones. I do wish they did so with more intent and less due to sheer habit.
To be fair, the new year's countdown is a simulacrum (Baudrillard) of a moment to begin with. It's the perfect example of a meme without real substance. So people want to save this (hyperreal) moment, share it, fill it with meaning. That's not entirely sad.
Consider the reverse. People just standing there staring at a countdown? It would not be hard to travesty that either.
I don't know about you but every crowd I've ever known would be chanting down together until midnight and then cheering at the fireworks, not sure where the travesty would be.
People don't actually save it, or share it, or fill it with meaning by using their phones but they think that's what doing it with their phones is doing. After the moment the content is not looked at. It's a thing to do not to be reviewed. It's recording to not record.
It's a way of participation in the world, a mediation of reality.
In some way it's a kind of play acting of what a hyper connected human should do in the moment when confronted with something unusual. A cyborg activity.
Took the family back to the place where my wife and I met as ski bums (small town in the mountains)
We went to a weekly music event and noticed that people were talking, dancing, laughing while the kids were playing in the grass/dirt and climbing trees. Not a single person was filming.
Felt nice. Not saying it’s not ok to be on your phone, but it does seem to act as “social armor” allowing people an easy way to avoid full immersion in situations.
We talked at length about Max Ernst's statement "Technology is a way
of not having to experience the world" on a Cybershow
episode. Specifically about a group of people standing around an
injured person or a fight, all filming it as a way to "be there and be
involved, without being there or being involved".Indeed, the perfect
shield.
People either want to compassionately share the moment with others, which is wonderful and part of our humanity... or they want to build up their ego from it. Maybe both. Most illnesses are like that.
Also, let's not completely demonize it because people actually remember moments more when taking pictures.
There’s a beautiful book from the 60's, 'Homo Faber', about a Swiss engineer who lives life through technology (mainly a camera lens), but then falls in love, and starts living.
49 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 103 ms ] threadI feel like people don't really experience their lives anymore - they document them for social media and clicks.
Goto the L'ouvre in France, and there are hundreds of people waiting in line and jamming into the space in front of the Mona Lisa to get a picture of the painting (or more specifically selfies of them standing in a crowd with the Mona Lisa in the background) - and yet there are huge spaces and exhibits in the building of equally awesome pieces of art and history that people don't even bother to visit
100% would be neat if there was a service surfacing those.
On the other hand there is nothing wrong with a quick snapshot and then go on enjoy
I think tourists taking a picture or recording an event is not even for themselves anymore, it's to post online and get views/likes/engagement.
I gave up on photography because I found the camera to get in the way, but I'm not above taking a few good pictures for my own memories. I just don't let it interrupt the moment anymore.
I think that social media is the main culprit here. When proving that you have a good time becomes as important as having a good time, your behaviour changes.
I really enjoy a strenuous hike to a point of interest around sunset, setting up, and taking photos of the sunrise or sunset. But that's my personal time and I'm usually alone. On the flip side I usually only take (some) smartphone photos documenting the experience and the people when I'm out in a group. I like the "here's what you did N years ago" collages and reconnecting with the people involved over the shared experience.
Trying to combine both usually leads to someone being disappointed, either the photographer because they're rushed or the others because the photog is holding everyone up.
I feel like good photos take a lot of planning, time and some luck. But the chase inspires me to get out more and not do the exact same thing everyone else is doing (all the time) to get something even remotely unique. It also requires scouting the locations for a while and finding the right composition takes some exploring the area.
Plus, long exposure photography gives you a lot of time to be in the moment when every photo takes a minute to expose and you get to progressively watch the landscape and lighting change waiting for the right time to snap your photos.
No one there is hurting anyone ... in fact all I see is a lot of people engaged in creating something: a video of their experience. Is it a good video? Maybe, maybe not, but it's their video.
Would I film it if I were there? Maybe? I don't know. I tend not to but I don't begrudge others who do.
Honestly, I don't care what people do, but some should try putting down the camera and enjoying the moment for a change and see if it changes their way of viewing things.
So, instead I get candid photos of my kids and wife in the places we visit. I have yet to feel the need to lookup a photo of a landscape.
It’s ok to dislike something and to share my dislike with others.
It’s also ok to point out wrong things toward making things better.
I'm not sure which is more sad really. Folks not "experiencing the moment", folks calling those people sad, or me on the next meta level up judging the people judging the people haha
Let people get their dopamine however they want to get it, internet, lmao
You’re in the Louvre, you’re in front of the Mona Lisa. It’s an amazing painting and it’s right there. And the person next to you is playing their gameboy.
It’s not about shaming them. It’s feeling regret that they are wasting this opportunity and missing something amazing.
Or I’m at breakfast with the most beautiful woman in the world and instead I don’t know she’s there and scroll through hacker news. I wouldn’t expect a person next to me to shame me for it, but I would expect them to recognize me wasting this opportunity.
In my examples, there could be many reasons why people would miss the beautiful thing for the banal. But in photos like this, there are 1000s missing the actual experience to record something vastly inferior than the experience.
I don’t think it’s shame. I think it’s empathetic regret and an urge to avoid doing this. I think it’s a bad thing for me to do. I want to do it less.
Pity is sometimes described as an "ugly" emotion. It presumes you're in a better position to judge someone else. Getting over pity is a big life step of getting over yourself. Grace and compersion rush into the space left behind. Alexander the Great (probably a super genius) said he admired Diogenes, and that if he wasn't himself - so in touch with his own ambition - he'd like to be Diogenes, a man so in touch with his ecstatic humility.
Anyway with respect to technological enslavement, I think it goes deeper than "pity". I once saw a small child running around with a tablet photographing everything and (probably copying a parent) saying "I have to capture moments". That sent a fucking deep chill down my spine.
The definition isn’t anywhere close to envy.
What are they playing?
If it was "Link's Awakening" or "Gargoyle's Quest", I would understand. Those are works of art.
Just imagine the end of a movie like "It's a Wonderful life" or some other movie that ends with a group celebration. Now change the ending by imagining everyone whipping out their phones to record the event. You know what I mean?
I don't know. Maybe people who grow up with this are more comfortable with it. Maybe it is a generational thing.
I agree - it's a terrible feeling. I also pick up my phone as a shield sometimes in these situations though I try to avoid it and just "enjoy" the awkwardness.
> when everyone is doing it enmass like that, how can it not change the group dynamic in some way?
I don't see people filming an event the same as being "on their phone". Not in the same way as everybody around a bar table checking WhatsApp, Instagram, Lemmy, whatever...
When I'm filming something, I can still be as present with the people around me as I am when not filming. I have distanced myself from the object of the film but not from my immediate surroundings. I can still sing the songs, talk to the group about the performance, etc.
Note that I also think it's bad when people spend a lot of their time watching a live event through their screens though. It can also be quite annoying for those of us behind them, especially if you're not a tall person, since it becomes even harder to actually see the live performance.
Oh now you're talking!
That's a x100 superpower.
I recently met someone who is about to start a (psych) PhD on "Awkwardness" and I had one of the most interesting conversations in years.
Some people fear embarrassment more than life threatening danger. As one of my favourite philosophers put it, terror management cannot be a plausible theory because "people aren't afraid of dying any more, they're afraid of being seen wearing the wrong trainers".
We should all try to understand "awkwardness" and social pressure more, because I think it's role in widespread manipulation is unrecognised.
There's something very, very powerful about being kinda resistant to awkwardness without being a callous asshole who feels no shame and delights in other people's discomfort.
One insight is that it's highly contagious. and its powerful to be the chain-breaker who can spot it, name it, make a joke or otherwise disrupt it. People really appreciate you for that.
When I am in a group of people who get phomo (that nervous wave of synchronised checking and tapping) I just walk off now. I used to stand there watching them all, but have since realised its me who makes them feel terribly awkward. I don't feel awkward, I feel mildly insulted.. but that's my baggage, so I just politely extricate.
Edit: Someone flagged this entire topic. Since I cannot find a single untoward comment in the threads I assume they just felt awkward about the whole discussion. QED.
> That's a x100 superpower.
Well, it's not like I always succeed at that but I'm trying! :D
It is a good feeling, to bring the instinctive monkey-like (lizard-like?) reaction of pulling up the phone to the foreground of the mind and taking intentional control of it. Even if the decision is to give in, as long as it's with intent, I'm fine with it - and in this case it's usually easy to put it back down.
> being kinda resistant to awkwardness without being a callous asshole who feels no shame and delights in other people's discomfort.
I do that to friends. Mostly on purpose. To be fair though, only to the friends with whom I'm intimate enough that I know they would do the same to me and it's out of love both ways. :)
> I just walk off now. I used to stand there watching them all, but have since realised its me who makes them feel terribly awkward.
I do that some times. That's not always an option in the example of the bar table with friends (or co-workers, etc). In any case, my experience is that the people who get inside their phones in this way are usually so oblivious to their surroundings that it doesn't matter. In these cases I try to just casually observe and learn whatever I can from the situation.
> I don't feel awkward, I feel mildly insulted
I used to feel that way too. I still do sometimes. Over the years though, I've been learning to get better at changing the way I reactively feel to situations based on what I know - in this case, that them being on their phones is not because of me (am I boring them? am I overly awkward and making them feel that way? am I ...?) but rather because they _need_ their phone fix. Note that I don't feel pity either. I don't think people should stop using their phones. I do wish they did so with more intent and less due to sheer habit.
Consider the reverse. People just standing there staring at a countdown? It would not be hard to travesty that either.
It's a way of participation in the world, a mediation of reality.
In some way it's a kind of play acting of what a hyper connected human should do in the moment when confronted with something unusual. A cyborg activity.
Or it's just because everyone else is doing it!
We went to a weekly music event and noticed that people were talking, dancing, laughing while the kids were playing in the grass/dirt and climbing trees. Not a single person was filming.
Felt nice. Not saying it’s not ok to be on your phone, but it does seem to act as “social armor” allowing people an easy way to avoid full immersion in situations.
It's not a retreat from the world but a mediation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Society_of_the_Spectacle
"Debord traces the development of a modern society in which authentic social life has been replaced with its representation"
Also, let's not completely demonize it because people actually remember moments more when taking pictures.
I think about that sometimes.