> The kit will "ideally" retail for one-third to half the price of a new diesel truck while providing estimated savings of 30% on fuel.
I don't think there are any new 3/4 or 1 ton diesel trucks that can be had for less than $60k. So, $20 - $30k for this kit, under "ideal" circumstances. A nice 12V[0] Cummins rebuild can be had for $10k, plus figure another $2,500 to install.
So, your engine blows up and you decide you want to either replace it with one of these kits for $30k or a get a nice rebuild for say $13k. Over the life of a light duty diesel engine (which to continue with our 12V Cummins example might be 750k - 1m miles,) @ 15 MPG, 30% fuel savings amounts to around 20,000 gallons of diesel fuel, which at $5/gallon is a $100,000 savings.
If you believe these kits will be as reliable and long-lasting as a diesel engine, they might make good enough economic sense to increase the...not large... number of diesel pickup owners looking to go electric.
0 - A "12V Cummins" is a 5.9L 12 valve diesel engine made by Cummins. They were used in Ram 2500/3500 pickup trucks between 1989 and 1998, and along with the Ford 7.3L Power Stroke would be a potentially popular target for the kit discussed in the article.
The biggest trouble is that a lithium battery that will last 8 years, and the one that will puff up in a year and lose 80% of capacity, all look the same when you buy them. It's all about the purity of materials, quality control, and other things you don't see without a microscope.
Big players like Ford play it very safe with their own cell manufacturers, but a random smaller-scale startup might be forced to buy the cells from the lowest bidder on Aliexpress, and that won't fare well.
The guys making this kit are working to launch a full diesel/electric hybrid transport truck for heavy haul applications. They plan to use cells from the same supplier as they are going to use for the heavy trucks, and hope to increase volume on their purchases.
Sorry, I should have clarified. A "12V Cummins" is a 5.9L Cummins Diesel engine with 12 valves (one intake and one exhaust valve for each of the 6 cylinders.) It is a popular (and reliable) diesel engine used in older Dodge Ram pickup trucks.
It’s depends on the specific engine, but you essentially tear it down then replace or machine parts back to high quality.
For example, cylinders and walls may develop too much gap over the years. You can machine the walls out a bit then slide a sleeve in to get it back to original sizes. Lots of manual work, but cheaper than a new engine.
You might also replace a bunch of other components along the way. The key thing is the engine block is generally still sound, even if other parts have warm out a bit.
I thought this would be similar to the diesel-electric term with respect to trains. Which is also something I’m shocked isn’t (hasn’t?) been tried with semis. Get rid of the 18 speed transmissions, have a “max efficiency” mode for regular use, and a “max power” mode for hill climbing.
I'm pretty sure it IS actually diesel electric, the engine is only used as a generator with no direct connection to the wheels. It's a full time battery-electric drive with a range extender.
Yeah I did some research on this a while ago because I had the same thought, diesel/electric drive-train seems like a no-brainer for trucks, and maybe even other vehicles. Basically a generator in an electric drive-train, with the possibility of introducing batteries too.
Sadly the main drawback seems to be cost; as is evident in the pricing of the startup's product. More than that, until gasoline vehicle externalities are properly priced in, the cost of any alternative will be exorbitant in comparison.
There have been some concept vehicles, and larger commercial vehicles; but they never caught on. It seems like electric will win before diesel/electric has a real chance. I always thought it'd make the most sense on motor homes and the like, where people tend to bring a small generator for electric appliances anyway.
Truck manufacturers measure fuel efficiencies to the tenths and compete on that. At highway speeds, ICE engines win over a pure electric system, so throwing in another conversion step hurts. For city routes, pure electric is better than diesel-electric.
So in general, the disadvantages of a diesel-electric system outweigh any advantages when you take a look at how trucks operate.
New trucks have "automatic" transmissions (not torque converters- they're more like automatically shifting standard transmissions), so no manual shifting required.
Somewhat related, but refrigerated trailers ("refers") often use a diesel-electric system because it's easy to plug in to shore power and cut the diesel engine.
A fair portion of large work trucks aren't moving all the time but require running. This is what Edison is shooting for currently. Jobs that have a lot of sitting, such as piles of things (ironically) in the oil industry and things in Welding applications. Municipal trucks can benefit by running full electric in sensitive areas.
Pure electric just won't work for any sizable portion of trucks getting converted, grid requirements just can't be met.
These same guys are building a commercial heavy-haul, vocational targeted diesel-electric hybrid truck. Their plan is to run a diesel at about half the normal displacement, and have batteries for a few hundred km of range. The axles are e-axles with no mechanical connection from engine to axles. The guys that started the company are heavy-haul truckers, and they think they've found some niches were the diesel-electric would shine.
Cheaper maybe, but the weight is significant to the point that federal laws have to allow higher weights for battery electric trucks to make them viable.
The biggest problem isn't the truck itself though, it's charging it. A single truck requires as much energy as a dozen cars meaning that a truck fast charger is going to need the equivalent of an entire bay of car fast chargers, and they require charging significantly more often. A car can get 95% of it's charging done at home overnight, whereas a battery electric truck is likely to need fast charging several times a day. The most convenient place to put these chargers would be at the loading bays where trucks pick up and drop off trailers, but these are generally not owned by the trucking company so the owner has little incentive to drop hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars on chargers to save the trucking company money _sometimes_.
Oh the savings are far from "sometimes" and more like "save 90% from TCO". But you're quite right with regards of charging stops. It's almost a catch-22, but fortunately stations are relatively easy to build.
Mechanical transmission are in the high 90's percent efficient at highway speed, almost no losses.
Diesel Electric transmissions in trains are in the 80's percent efficient range, double conversion from mechanical to electrical back to mechanical has higher losses. Trains make up for this with lower rolling and aero resistance, they need the precise traction control of the electric transmission to prevent wheel slip along with the impracticality of mechanically routing power to the wheels. Semis do not have this issue.
I suspect modern diesel electric drivetrains are probably in the low 90's, especially with a lithium battery in the middle acting as a buffer so there's never any over-production by the generators.
Even if trucks do spend the majority of their time on the highway, it's not all of the time and the efficiency gains every time they need to stop and start are significant.
having driven my share of old pickups, the frames aren't going to be up to the task of carrying any significant load with this kit installed. Might be fine for tooling around town with your girlfriend, but that's about it.
IMO it would make more sense to sell the kits as a complete rolling chassis, with a brand new F250 frame, and let coachbuilders slap on whatever body they want.
Don’t you love it when you’re reading an article and you’re engaged and interested. And then they pop up something “not the article” in your face, breaking your flow?
I fucking love that. It makes me want to hug them in the face with my balled up fists or maybe something sharp.
Why have we decided that the way to delight our audience is to annoy the fuck out of them?
Let’s all take a moment to reflect on where we went so wrong since I can’t recommend that you click the link and try to read the article.
These kits are awesome, but these vehicles are quite literally death traps.
Once the gasoline engine in my VW starts to kick, I'm very tempted to do a hybrid compressed natural gas upgrade. Potentially down the line a full electric upgrade since I'll still have a manual transmission.
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[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 71.0 ms ] threadhttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37985741
I don't think there are any new 3/4 or 1 ton diesel trucks that can be had for less than $60k. So, $20 - $30k for this kit, under "ideal" circumstances. A nice 12V[0] Cummins rebuild can be had for $10k, plus figure another $2,500 to install.
So, your engine blows up and you decide you want to either replace it with one of these kits for $30k or a get a nice rebuild for say $13k. Over the life of a light duty diesel engine (which to continue with our 12V Cummins example might be 750k - 1m miles,) @ 15 MPG, 30% fuel savings amounts to around 20,000 gallons of diesel fuel, which at $5/gallon is a $100,000 savings.
If you believe these kits will be as reliable and long-lasting as a diesel engine, they might make good enough economic sense to increase the...not large... number of diesel pickup owners looking to go electric.
0 - A "12V Cummins" is a 5.9L 12 valve diesel engine made by Cummins. They were used in Ram 2500/3500 pickup trucks between 1989 and 1998, and along with the Ford 7.3L Power Stroke would be a potentially popular target for the kit discussed in the article.
Big players like Ford play it very safe with their own cell manufacturers, but a random smaller-scale startup might be forced to buy the cells from the lowest bidder on Aliexpress, and that won't fare well.
All of the 2010 Toyota Hybrids on original battery packs would like a word.
For example, cylinders and walls may develop too much gap over the years. You can machine the walls out a bit then slide a sleeve in to get it back to original sizes. Lots of manual work, but cheaper than a new engine.
You might also replace a bunch of other components along the way. The key thing is the engine block is generally still sound, even if other parts have warm out a bit.
This said, I considered the potential of this kit for me, a '98 12V owner, and don't consider it worth the money.
Sadly the main drawback seems to be cost; as is evident in the pricing of the startup's product. More than that, until gasoline vehicle externalities are properly priced in, the cost of any alternative will be exorbitant in comparison.
There have been some concept vehicles, and larger commercial vehicles; but they never caught on. It seems like electric will win before diesel/electric has a real chance. I always thought it'd make the most sense on motor homes and the like, where people tend to bring a small generator for electric appliances anyway.
https://wikicars.org/en/Diesel-Electric_Hybrid
So in general, the disadvantages of a diesel-electric system outweigh any advantages when you take a look at how trucks operate.
New trucks have "automatic" transmissions (not torque converters- they're more like automatically shifting standard transmissions), so no manual shifting required.
Somewhat related, but refrigerated trailers ("refers") often use a diesel-electric system because it's easy to plug in to shore power and cut the diesel engine.
Pure electric just won't work for any sizable portion of trucks getting converted, grid requirements just can't be met.
The biggest problem isn't the truck itself though, it's charging it. A single truck requires as much energy as a dozen cars meaning that a truck fast charger is going to need the equivalent of an entire bay of car fast chargers, and they require charging significantly more often. A car can get 95% of it's charging done at home overnight, whereas a battery electric truck is likely to need fast charging several times a day. The most convenient place to put these chargers would be at the loading bays where trucks pick up and drop off trailers, but these are generally not owned by the trucking company so the owner has little incentive to drop hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars on chargers to save the trucking company money _sometimes_.
Diesel Electric transmissions in trains are in the 80's percent efficient range, double conversion from mechanical to electrical back to mechanical has higher losses. Trains make up for this with lower rolling and aero resistance, they need the precise traction control of the electric transmission to prevent wheel slip along with the impracticality of mechanically routing power to the wheels. Semis do not have this issue.
Even if trucks do spend the majority of their time on the highway, it's not all of the time and the efficiency gains every time they need to stop and start are significant.
IMO it would make more sense to sell the kits as a complete rolling chassis, with a brand new F250 frame, and let coachbuilders slap on whatever body they want.
I fucking love that. It makes me want to hug them in the face with my balled up fists or maybe something sharp. Why have we decided that the way to delight our audience is to annoy the fuck out of them?
Let’s all take a moment to reflect on where we went so wrong since I can’t recommend that you click the link and try to read the article.
Once the gasoline engine in my VW starts to kick, I'm very tempted to do a hybrid compressed natural gas upgrade. Potentially down the line a full electric upgrade since I'll still have a manual transmission.