The sweet spot is how much damage can 'we' do to them without them going all the way to 11 to their response.
I don't know if now, with all that is going on with Israel, Gaza, Lebanon, that US Navy will try to take out official state/military vessels. US Navy would blow to smithereens any 'pirate' boats, but something with a flag.. tough choice.
> The DOJ said “multiple entities” affiliated with the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps were involved in the scheme to “disguise the origin of the oil” and illegally sell it to China, according to court documents.
Just to be clear - Iran is being accused of breaking US law?
I can be working for the subsidiary of a US company in an EU country, and I can pick my nose the wrong way and break US law. And if/when I find myself in the US to be arrested.
US law has the amazing thing that it applies all over. I can traffic endangered species in Spain (thus violating an existing US law about this). Spain (for example) may not mind. US will have me for breakfast when they get their hands on me.
I don't know this for a fact, but I doubt that's true. I'm in the Netherlands right now, and I strongly suspect that like the poster says; the field of fucks given would be baron.
According to the IRCG media, “this tanker whose name was changed to St Nicholas and carrying oil in the Oman sea was seized in retaliation for the theft of oil by the American regime".
Any information about the when/where/how for this oil theft by the American regime? Maybe something to do with "freezing assets"?
"In April 2023 the Greek-managed Marshall Islands-flagged oil tanker Suez Rajan was seized by US authorities, for breaching US sanctions against Iranian oil, which fell under US jurisdiction due to the use of US financial services. The US then confiscated and sold the carried Iranian oil."
The Republic of the Marshall Islands is the closest thing to being a US Protectorate without being a US posession.
It is officially an Associated State with a Compact of Free Association with the US. Its (non-naturalized) citizens have a right to work in and live in the US, equal access to welfare programs (that even green card holders don't have), and many US domestic agencies provide services there (the US Post office, and FEMA amongst others). And of course they have DoD protection (Edit: for Marshallese owned ships only), and use the US Dollar.
But it's even true in places which are _definitely_ not US proxies. Note that the US financial sanctions have an insanely wide reaching effect, given the need to be able to transact in US dollars.
Because of the US sanctions against Carrie Lam, the previous Chief Executive of Hong Kong, she had to withdraw her own salary from the Hong Kong SAR government in cash, because no bank in Hong Kong could deal with her and also offer US dollar denominated services.
2. Trying to get around the sanctions and then entering a place the US could nab it, yeah.
3. What should they have done with it? The point's not to eliminate the oil, but to discourage evading sanctions, and the seizure already accomplishes that.
They should have allowed a non-us ship to transfer the oil and send it to Iran or whatever. After all it wasn't Iran's fault that the company that moved the oil around was not abiding by the laws of the country they were incorporated in.
If you want to be the country that sends a clear message that all you need to do is to follow the rules of capitalism you don't go around and seize assets by your enemies. If you do that then all what people conclude is that you're just doing what the fuck you want and benefit your friends and crush your enemies and so they are morally free to do the same.
It's still possible to apply pressure and sanctions while keeping up with your principles. Otherwise you're missing the whole point and become an international joke, which sadly is what is increasingly happening to the US despite the best intentions of many (and thanks to the worst intentions of many others)
> They should have allowed a non-us ship to transfer the oil and send it to Iran or whatever. After all it wasn't Iran's fault that the company that moved the oil around was not abiding by the laws of the country they were incorporated in.
Did Iran already get paid for the oil? If so, they certainly don't need it back. If not, they should do better due diligence in the future, when handing their goods to others without cash-in-hand. Weird to trust something so valuable to some company without better awareness of how they operate. Cough.
> If you want to be the country that sends a clear message that all you need to do is to follow the rules of capitalism
I disagree with much of what follows, in part because I don't think this describes something we are actually trying to do, now or historically, so the rest is built on a premise that I believe to be shaky. I'm not aware of "all you need to do is to follow the rules of capitalism" being either an explicit or implicit message of US foreign policy, ever (though I'm open to evidence to the contrary!) Pro-capitalism and pro-free-market (especially for foreign capital investment) policies are things we have pursued and advanced, yes, but there's always been a lot more going on, too, and I don't think those other parts have been covert or otherwise something that anyone on the international stage could have failed to appreciate.
> It's still possible to apply pressure and sanctions while keeping up with your principles. Otherwise you're missing the whole point and become an international joke
Giving countries a do-over when they "accidentally" (wink, touch nose) get involved in evading sanctions takes you to "international joke" territory real quick, too, though. Is this particular action a betrayal of principle, or following through on plainly-stated intentions, pragmatically and consistently?
Seems pretty straight forward. A Greek company (Suez Rajan Ltd.) decided to register their ship in the Marshall Islands. They then tried to evade U.S. sanctions on Iran by shipping Iranian oil (using a ship-to-ship oil transfer), but they weren't smart enough to realize that the Marshall Islands were once the U.S. Marshall Islands, a former U.S. colony that still has strong ties to the United States. There was a trial, and the company (Suez Rajan Ltd.) plead guilty, paid a fine, and the U.S. confiscated the oil (which belonged to Iran), which it subsequently sold.
Is there a particular reason to underline/emphasize _The Mashall Islands_? And it is not like the U.S. is the only entity with various sanctions against Iran:
Was the oil owned by that Greek company or did it actually belong to Iran?
If I send a package via DHL and DHL is found guilty of something and the package is confiscated by the US government in the process, can the US government just sell my stuff?
> Is there a particular reason to underline/emphasize _The Mashall Islands_?
Yes, the reason is that I didn't know the Marshal Islands had anything to do with the U.S.A. Though now that I know the relationship, it's no less shocking (it's part of the U.S.A. but not part of the U.S.A.?)
> And it is not like the U.S. is the only entity with various sanctions against Iran
Sure, but I didn't know / think the Marshal Islands did.
> ...which part is the most dystopian to you?
All of it! It's like something out of a sci-fi book where the world is governed by a Romanesque empire. Maybe this kind of thing only offends people outside the U.S.A. since it's not normalised elsewhere. If the Netherlands did something like this for example, people in the country would freak out.
Is the most offensive part the idea of sanctions in general? Or just these particular sanctions on Iran? Or enforcement of these particular sanctions or enforcement of sanctions in general? It doesn't seem like the Netherlands is opposed to all sanctions.
The overreach, I guess. I find it terrifying that we essentially have a smarter version of the Roman empire ruling the world.
Smarter because they can safely hide behind bureaucracy and deny they're any such thing. More terrifying because this means they'll get away with it until the end of days.
> which fell under US jurisdiction due to the use of US financial services.
Looking forward to falling under Iranian jurisdiction for using their oil, or Chinese jurisdiction for using their phones, and getting arrested and having all my possessions confiscated by Iran/China as soon as I enter international waters.
Since apparently that's how 'jurisdiction' works now, according to the US.
41 comments
[ 2.3 ms ] story [ 93.8 ms ] thread[EDIT] I just mean that the magnitude of this event was a lot smaller than one might imagine from a context-free "half".
I don't know if now, with all that is going on with Israel, Gaza, Lebanon, that US Navy will try to take out official state/military vessels. US Navy would blow to smithereens any 'pirate' boats, but something with a flag.. tough choice.
Just to be clear - Iran is being accused of breaking US law?
US law has the amazing thing that it applies all over. I can traffic endangered species in Spain (thus violating an existing US law about this). Spain (for example) may not mind. US will have me for breakfast when they get their hands on me.
1- https://apnews.com/article/africa-netherlands-somalia-al-sha...
Any information about the when/where/how for this oil theft by the American regime? Maybe something to do with "freezing assets"?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Rajan
"In April 2023 the Greek-managed Marshall Islands-flagged oil tanker Suez Rajan was seized by US authorities, for breaching US sanctions against Iranian oil, which fell under US jurisdiction due to the use of US financial services. The US then confiscated and sold the carried Iranian oil."
1. _The Marshall Islands_ fall under U.S.A. jurisdiction because they use U.S.A. financial services
2. The U.S.A. therefore "confiscated" the ship and oil for breaching their own sanctions and then ...
3. The U.S.A. sold the fucking oil that was in breach of their sanctions?!
That's some dystopian empire level shit right there. Or am I misunderstanding something?
The Republic of the Marshall Islands is the closest thing to being a US Protectorate without being a US posession.
It is officially an Associated State with a Compact of Free Association with the US. Its (non-naturalized) citizens have a right to work in and live in the US, equal access to welfare programs (that even green card holders don't have), and many US domestic agencies provide services there (the US Post office, and FEMA amongst others). And of course they have DoD protection (Edit: for Marshallese owned ships only), and use the US Dollar.
But it's even true in places which are _definitely_ not US proxies. Note that the US financial sanctions have an insanely wide reaching effect, given the need to be able to transact in US dollars.
Because of the US sanctions against Carrie Lam, the previous Chief Executive of Hong Kong, she had to withdraw her own salary from the Hong Kong SAR government in cash, because no bank in Hong Kong could deal with her and also offer US dollar denominated services.
2. Trying to get around the sanctions and then entering a place the US could nab it, yeah.
3. What should they have done with it? The point's not to eliminate the oil, but to discourage evading sanctions, and the seizure already accomplishes that.
If you want to be the country that sends a clear message that all you need to do is to follow the rules of capitalism you don't go around and seize assets by your enemies. If you do that then all what people conclude is that you're just doing what the fuck you want and benefit your friends and crush your enemies and so they are morally free to do the same.
It's still possible to apply pressure and sanctions while keeping up with your principles. Otherwise you're missing the whole point and become an international joke, which sadly is what is increasingly happening to the US despite the best intentions of many (and thanks to the worst intentions of many others)
Or has the US declared war on Iran?
https://www.npr.org/2024/01/10/1223906769/yemens-houthis-red...
Did Iran already get paid for the oil? If so, they certainly don't need it back. If not, they should do better due diligence in the future, when handing their goods to others without cash-in-hand. Weird to trust something so valuable to some company without better awareness of how they operate. Cough.
> If you want to be the country that sends a clear message that all you need to do is to follow the rules of capitalism
I disagree with much of what follows, in part because I don't think this describes something we are actually trying to do, now or historically, so the rest is built on a premise that I believe to be shaky. I'm not aware of "all you need to do is to follow the rules of capitalism" being either an explicit or implicit message of US foreign policy, ever (though I'm open to evidence to the contrary!) Pro-capitalism and pro-free-market (especially for foreign capital investment) policies are things we have pursued and advanced, yes, but there's always been a lot more going on, too, and I don't think those other parts have been covert or otherwise something that anyone on the international stage could have failed to appreciate.
> It's still possible to apply pressure and sanctions while keeping up with your principles. Otherwise you're missing the whole point and become an international joke
Giving countries a do-over when they "accidentally" (wink, touch nose) get involved in evading sanctions takes you to "international joke" territory real quick, too, though. Is this particular action a betrayal of principle, or following through on plainly-stated intentions, pragmatically and consistently?
Is there a particular reason to underline/emphasize _The Mashall Islands_? And it is not like the U.S. is the only entity with various sanctions against Iran:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_sanctions_agains...
...which part is the most dystopian to you?
If I send a package via DHL and DHL is found guilty of something and the package is confiscated by the US government in the process, can the US government just sell my stuff?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_agains...
Yes, the reason is that I didn't know the Marshal Islands had anything to do with the U.S.A. Though now that I know the relationship, it's no less shocking (it's part of the U.S.A. but not part of the U.S.A.?)
> And it is not like the U.S. is the only entity with various sanctions against Iran
Sure, but I didn't know / think the Marshal Islands did.
> ...which part is the most dystopian to you?
All of it! It's like something out of a sci-fi book where the world is governed by a Romanesque empire. Maybe this kind of thing only offends people outside the U.S.A. since it's not normalised elsewhere. If the Netherlands did something like this for example, people in the country would freak out.
https://www.government.nl/topics/international-sanctions/pol...
Smarter because they can safely hide behind bureaucracy and deny they're any such thing. More terrifying because this means they'll get away with it until the end of days.
Doesn't seem too wildly different from the various former Dutch colonies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suriname_(Kingdom_of_the_Nethe...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Caribbean
Looking forward to falling under Iranian jurisdiction for using their oil, or Chinese jurisdiction for using their phones, and getting arrested and having all my possessions confiscated by Iran/China as soon as I enter international waters.
Since apparently that's how 'jurisdiction' works now, according to the US.