So we have a family friend who owns a model train shop, a very popular and notable one. He took it over from the original owner, and this fellow also has a private museum attached, where he exhibits vintage vehicles, typewriters, and other stuff: https://www.jacooleymuseum.com/
So one of his daughters was my friend and classmate, and when we were growing up, of course, her father was already collecting model trains, and he had so many that every shelf of their home was occupied with model trains of various types.
My friend didn't visit many other homes when she was young, but once she finally went over to a friend's house, and she looked around, bewildered, and asked, "Where are all the trains?"
Sad to see but my overlapping hobby (miniature wargaming) has some cross over and model train stuff is so expensive even compared to miniature wargaming which isn’t very cheap itself.
Over COVID I couldn't wargame with friends in person, so I started an N scale railroad to fill the hobby void as they share a lot. Also it was fun doing all the automation etc as mentioned in other comments there. I've sold the railroad off since as I started wargaming again though.
Funny to see this now. A couple days ago I was on vacation in San Diego and visited the San Diego Model Railroad Museum in Balboa Park and a lot of the traffic flowing through my head about it are all points addressed in the above article:
"Almost everyone working here is quite old"
"The amount of space this takes up is incredible, I wonder how people get into this hobby, I've never lived anywhere where I'd have enough space to set up a model railway long term"
It's kind of a shame too, it was the first time I think I've ever really appreciated the large scale model train installations. When I was younger I'd see them at random historical museums and mostly just think "yeah choo-choo sure does go in a circle haha". I think the San Diego museum did a good job of conveying that it isn't really just about the trains as much as it's about modeling the landscapes and towns the trains actually go through. Viewing it from the perspective of a massive scale diorama of some region really raised my overall appreciation for the whole endeavour.
My father was an enthusiast. When we moved into their current house (1988), the builder had the option of a three-car garage or enclosing the third-car section, and that was intended as a railway room. He favoured the large German "LGB" trains, in part bought because they were among the more durable products on the market, so it would be child-resistant for the kids to use. He built the framework and a track plan but never really had the time he wanted to work on it.
I, in turn, moved on to smaller American (HO scale) and British (OO) trains, using the same room, but now find that the tables designed for big 1:22.5 trains have irregularities enough to make 1:87 trackwork unreliable. Will probably need to rework them.
The hobby itself has definitely changed though: Yes, today's modern models are higher quality than a lot of the old "Blue Box" Athearn kits, but they're also $50 instead of $7, and come ready-to-run, so the hobby aspect of building and customizing it is gone. Many models don't even come as an undecorated version anymore, if you wanted the classic "paint it for your own custom railway" narrative. You don't get the same "hours of fun per dollar" out of that side of the hobby anymore.
What's interesting is that there's definitely an opportunity for synergy with the rise of hobby electronics-- the trains have moved from "variable DC on the rails" to "AC with a command bus" and sometimes even Bluetooth, so there's a lot of interesting stuff you could do with computer or microcontroller interfacing. I bought a project for an automatic traffic-signal design using some 555 timers and capacitors, and thought "this is 10 lines of code on a $3 Arduino, for this generation of hobbyists."
Shops are closing-- I make it a point to try to find a model-railway shop and pick up something exotic when I go on holiday, but even pretty big cities don't have one, or it's a billion miles from anywhere. I was sort of saddened to get a note from Hattons (an excellent UK retailer-- surprisingly cheap shipping to the US) that they have started to wind down operations in the last month.
> Shops are closing-- I make it a point to try to find a model-railway shop and pick up something exotic when I go on holiday, but even pretty big cities don't have one, or it's a billion miles from anywhere.
Berlin has two or three big shops and some smaller ones.
>Shops are closing-- I make it a point to try to find a model-railway shop and pick up something exotic when I go on holiday, but even pretty big cities don't have one
Tokyo has tons of them. They're even in the big, new shopping malls, along with huge dioramas.
> "The amount of space this takes up is incredible, I wonder how people get into this hobby, I've never lived anywhere where I'd have enough space to set up a model railway long term"
So much "millenials killing X" discourse is just "property prices killing X" in disguise.
I'm not sure how much of it is space, as I remember even 20-30 years ago the model railroad magazines always had a "how to fit a layout in the space you have" - up to and including elaborate folding layouts that would fit in something not much bigger than a briefcase.
If people really want to do something, they make space/time available for it, even if it involves clubs, etc.
The number of people who want to build models in general is down, I suspect, given that we have so many other things to do with "free time".
> If people really want to do something, they make space/time available for it
There's other space-saving solutions, like layouts that swing up against the wall (like a Murphy bed), or that can be pulled up against the ceiling. Some handiwork required.
My maternal grandfather was a pipe fitter on the railroad, before becoming a defense contractor, and also before contracting mesothelioma and dying when I was 6.
He owned a sizable property in California which included a large home and some attached apartments. They ran a boarding-house for immigrants, and later, my widowed grandmother became a landlady.
I was raised with a fervent love for railroads of all types. I had little engineer togs as a toddler and a professional photoshoot to prove it. We rode around on a scale railroad in the park. But most of all, my grandfather's labor of love was building a model train set for me in an upstairs bedroom.
It was essentially a simple affair; grandpa had built a large plywood table topped with Astroturf. The rails themselves were in a large figure-eight, with not much landscaping or scenery around. We concentrated on the technical bits: a good AC/DC transformer with variable knob, some nice rolling stock with the traditional freight-train assortment of cars, and a locomotive that had that smokestack where you could insert a little tablet and it'd puff out "steam" while it ran.
My sister and I loved that whole setup, and it was like catnip to us in our youth, at least until the Atari 2600 took over. The railroad remained the centerpiece of that room and a focal point of our entertainment for years and years, even after grandpa passed away. It was really a cool thing for an authentic railroad guy to pass that on to his grandchildren.
I also suspect that many of the young people who can afford and are interested in many of these sorts of hobbies have, at least incrementally, tended to shift more urban which makes them impractical absent some shared club/store space. When I first got an apartment after school--and pre-digital photography--I tried doing home processing in a half-bathroom and rapidly concluded that was for the birds. (Even after I got a house, there really wasn't a suitable space and then digital photography came in.)
The only time that museum was filled with kids was the yearly "LEGO Train" exhibit, which I partook of once or twice.
And the people I was with (setting up the exhibit) were mostly younger (at the time) ranging from the 10 or so year old kids of the people leading it to mid 20s - not counting the leaders who were middle aged.
Everyone loved it and the number of visitors in that two week period or whatever it was would rival the total number of visitors the rest of the year.
But LEGO trains are not model trains (my goodness), they're toy trains - a completely and unrespectable thing.
“ But LEGO trains are not model trains (my goodness), they're toy trains - a completely and unrespectable thing.”
I love this condescending sounding distinction, it’s actually very accurate! When I was 12 or 13 I had an uncle that was into model railroading and I thought it looked so fun and cool! Then I started looking into it more and it’s not really (at least to me at that age) because it’s not a toy you take out of the box and play with a 100 different ways. You build a very static and detailed landscape, put your rails down, start the train up, and just sit back and look at it. Where’s the fun in that?
I just got a Lego train set for me and my kids and we’ve already built several different ways, crashed the train and rebuilt parts of multiple tiles, discovered you can program it with the new PoweredUp system, put mini figures on the roof of the cars, etc.
Not only can you change the track around easily, my kids have proven again and again that the track is not necessary and that the train can keep going (and going and going…) without the track.
It's not just the space although you either have to belong to a club of some sort or have a house with a fair bit of extra room. But stamp and coin collecting is pretty much out of fashion as well.
Also I know a few people who are into model train and I would not call them old. Also they use quite modern tech (resin 3D priters and fully automated train control).
As for the space issue, they even sorta sved that as well via modular layouts - you build a certain part of a layout that conforms to an interface spec (rail placement at edges, electrical connections) and then you can join other enthusiasts at events where they build massive layouts from these modules in a rented hall somewhere for a couple days.
With the rise of 3D printing and wireless tech, what if we had a modular system of terrain pieces(Like Gridfinity), that could be set up temporarily at events?
Every member of a club would only have to bring a small section but you could still do really big layouts
My dad's train club, and most of the others I'm aware of, have had modular set ups for about 40 years. They pick a standard for module sizes and where the track connections need to be, and then everyone can design their own module as they like.
Modular is how they’ve been doing it forever, just that a single module is roughly a 6 foot long table (my uncle did this, not me, so I don’t know the exact dimensions)
Even 40 years ago many opted for N scale because of space constraints. Clubs were almost always HO scale focused, since they had cheap or free accomodation often in semi abandoned rail hangars etc.
As for age, it is not just the cost, but also the alienation of the young from messy analog physical dexterity, long low stimulus attention and slow progress in favor of high stimulus instant digital gratification.
I know a lot of people who are into model building in the younger-millennial older gen-z age range. I am not convinced that this shift is particularly pronounced.
I think the real problem is that y'all got houses to put a train set in for like $3.50 and the only people I know with houses are the ones who's parents put the money down and cosigned the loan. The models fit on a shelf in a tiny apartment with a roommate.
Maybe vote to approve some apartment blocks and public transit next time around?
Since I moved out of my moms place I could not bring my 3d printers, cnc machine or electronics equipment. I simply cant fit it in this tiny apartment with my wife.
I have lost these hobbies over the past two years to software entirely. Not necessarily a bad thing.
I guess my point is, you can lose your slower hobbies without even realizing, just due to circumstance. It's not necessarily the younger generation's "fault". It is often just the emergent consequence of the situation.
> the alienation of the young from messy analog physical dexterity, long low stimulus attention and slow progress
I suggest any boomers with this attitude check out what the kids are doing with Gunpla and Warhammer. It's a space issue, not a "stimulus" or "physical dexterity" one.
At the same time modeling of "real things", except maybe RC airplanes, seems to be in a decline. For instance there don't seem to be many people into building models of ships/etc. The fantasy stuff goes a lot stronger. Kind of makes me wonder if declining social conditions have young people running to escapist fantasy stuff. Or maybe it's because the fantasy stuff is more profitable for corps thanks to trademark/copyright, so consumers follow the advertising?
I think it's hard to wrap all those hobbies up into one "reason" for the shift. One though is that kids probably see a lot less ships (in real life and film/TV) than they did 20, let alone 50, years ago. Kids will react to what they're told are cool and young adults will continue the hobby they had as kids.
That being said, the same place I buy my monster and spaceship painting equipment from seems to still do a decent trade in benders and slips.
And size is still an issue, the smallest ship I could build is about the size of the largest "miniature" I have.
You make good points about the routine shifts in influence and interest over the generations. Running with the "RC airplane" example, it's probably true that the traditional internal combustion hobby isn't picking up tons of new youth. But look at how well drones still sell for Christmas these days.
Housing costs have been growing at 2x wages for 50 years. If space was a constraint then, imagine how it is now.
How many times did boomers look at the two buttons before them, "make housing affordable" and "make housing a good investment," and which button did they press every singe time?
The claim in your first sentence seems intuitive. Yet, I have found conflicting data about it in the past. Do you have specific sources you're referring to by chance?
As an outsider, I'm pretty sure almost everyone has always considered model trains boring. That's always been the joke. This isn't anything new. You can't blame social media for this.
Kids are funny. I’ve seen multiple go through being completely obsessed up to about 5 to losing interest and never looking at a model train again. I think there’s something about that young age that makes them particularly interested, but the likelihood of a long time mode train enthusiast seems to be quite low.
The predictability of the train can be good. While I can't find it at the moment, there was an article I recently read about how repetition (in the context of Good Night Moon(?)) and the ability to be able to predict the future is useful for early childhood learning and development.
A train is very predictable - the sound, the motion, the path... for the same reason that children like having the same book read to them again and again, the train fills that role too.
This was me as a kid. Whenever we'd drive past the local hobby shop I'd beg my dad to make a stop so we could go look at the display (and play with the various buttons they had that lit up lights, switched tracks, etc).
I've long forgotten about model railroads and these days I live in small city apartments and move every few years, so even if I'd managed to retain the interest I have no practical way to build or store my own models, and generally prefer to spend money on experiences instead of things. I'm basically the problem millennial this whole thread is about.
It seems to be from the examples I've had. I wouldn't invest too much into assuming they'll still be in the train hobby in a few years, fun while it lasts though :)
I still have the Marklin HO model train from my youth. 40 years later it still works and kids love it (when we take it out).
One winter we mixed it with Lego from the Harry Potter series and pretended the train was the one going to Hogwarts.
Toys that still work 40 years later are amazing.
Younger parents who didn't play with model trains are also in awe. For those who have enough room it's really a nice thing to do to play together with your kid(s).
It s not crazy pricey either if you don't go wild.
Years ago I read that Märklin held the record for an engine running continuously out-of-the-box. Like, it ran for two weeks solid before it finally melted down.
Model trains require a large amount of dedicated indoor space. With millennials and zoomers frozen out of the housing market I expect a large proportion of them simply don't have the room.
I’d be curious how mobility plays into that as well. The YouTubers I see often seem to be well settled in their large-enough-for-the-hobby houses. If you end up moving often, or just _feel_ like you might have to, it’s more difficult to invest time and money into it.
I've just been thinking about this in terms of metalworking. I've long wanted to have a home lathe, welder, possibly milling machine or at least a drill press. I recently moved into a house with a sizable basement workshop space and am enjoying setting it up and doing some simple projects (none of those high-dollar tools yet, but I have a selection of files, rasps, a nice vice and workbench, etc.).
The thing is, I don't expect I'll necessarily have this kind of space forever (and almost certainly not this particular one), so it's hard to justify things like cutting a hole in the side of the house to crane in an industrial lathe. I'm planning on getting more hobbyist-scale stuff (though still space-consuming) with a goal of using it to build my own, smaller, portable workshop (a small lathe, provisions for using it for milling, a selection of cutting tools and the necessary meta-tools to maintain them, a pack-up forge/foundry).
The ultimate dream is something the size of approximately a (possibly large) suitcase or footlocker that can be used to recreate itself (think RepRap but a whole, miniature machine shop), so that I can 1) continue in my hobby even if I have to move into an apartment, and 2) share this with other people by helping them bootstrap something similar. The David A. Gingery book series ("Build Your Own Machine Shop From Scrap") is my inspiration here, though so much of the series would be a lot easier if you could start with some existing machine tools instead of having to do literally all of it from scratch).
One tip: stick everything on a small platform with wheels and have a spot where there is an anchor embedded in the floor so you can fix a machine when you need to. The best kind of wheels are the retractable ones so when you set it down the machine is planted properly. I'm pretty space constrained here as well and this is my strategy for maximizing the use of the workspace.
You definitely are locked into a location. I went this route with a large basement lathe, milling machine, drill press, welders, etc and while I love them all if I ever move more than a couple hours drive away I'll probably have to sell them and start over.
I started in an apartment with the small Shurline lathe and mill and they were quite fun and capable for their size.
I don’t have a tabletop to spare in my apartment. We use a folding table for board games so that we can put it away afterwards. Space is at a premium and simulator games take up even less space.
Likewise. I've even given up table top games like Flames of War for lack of space to place a 4ft x 6ft game board. No chance to fit a static model railroad. My dad fit one in our townhouse growing up by building it around his and mum's bed. She hated the thing. Every few months it would encroach further.
Plus storage for elements you aren't using, plus work area. A coworker was shocked I could dedicate a ~1.5x4 L desk to my miniature painting. Most 25-30yo people I know here in Berlin would have to choose between this or a partner, purely based on space; or a 1h trip into the city centers.
I don't think it needs to be dedicated indoor space - at least in my bubble, it's not uncommon to do temporary layouts on floors.
It's obviously very focused on the railroad part, but turning your apartment into a model railroad for a few days every once in a while means you can use a lot more space. Outdoor spaces can be used as well.
In my suburban area of N.Cal (outside the bay area) we have a huge, well-appointed central train museum housed in the former regional central station were volunteer docents in period costume give tours. It's a popular weekend attraction that draws tourists and during the week is a regular field trip for the schools in the region. They also do regular rides on period trains on several miles of closed track and occasional longer runs on public track.
A big part of it is funded by doing interactive Polar Express recreation trip/shows complete with singing, dancing, hot cocoa, cookies and a visit by Santa. They do two trips every day and three on weekends from before Thanksgiving to Christmas, each with several hundred passengers. It's a great experience that's pure magic for kids. The whole thing is done with top-notch production value and officially licensed by Disney. Tickets aren't cheap but well-worth the price and always sold-out with long waiting lists. When our kid was that age, getting tickets was challenging enough that we just got a yearly family membership to the museum to ensure priority selection and it became a tradition our kid still talks about every holiday. If you have (or know) kids of that age, check if there's similar holiday train excursions in your area.
We also have several smaller train clubs in the surrounding suburbs and rural areas including a couple who own and run full-sized trains on a few miles of closed track they maintain. There are also several large area parks which host clubs that run smaller "kiddie-style" trains on loops of around a half-mile. These are generally run by volunteers and free/donation. So at least in our area, I'm happy to report that train hobbies seem to be doing pretty well, although I don't know about the home-based scale train end of things.
For anyone in central Scotland, come and check out the Scottish Model Engineering Trust - https://smet.org.uk . We've got everything from N gauge to 7 1/4 inch. I haven't been a member for long yet (a few years), but I am constantly impressed with what the folks there can build.
I think what drew people to model trains was the ability to create and automate your tracks. It's an interesting and fun thing to do, basically designing a system and going trough all the small things needed to make it work. I can see how today this itch can be scratched by many different videogames (Factorio, just to give one example), while decades ago it was either model train or nothing much else.
I think younger generations are drawn to cheaper and easier to access forms of entertainment that provide similar intellectual experience. It's a shame for the hobby, but I find it a very reasonable thing to happen.
When I was little my brothers and I played a lot together with Lego.
Now we’re all over 40 and occasionally play on a heavily modded Minecraft server to scratch that itch.
In many ways it’s so much more practical, essentially unlimited building materials with no real cost, no issue with physical space in the house, we can do it casually in the evenings while doing voice calls on Discord, no unpacking or packing up needed before or after.
There are even great rail cart mods for those interested in track switching type activities.
We make a point of doing in person LANs about every quarter, also for old times sake.
I think this is the best explanation. I myself spent enormous time on Factorio "model trains" and it was even better because my train decisions were always motivated by an external requirement in the game. Model trains by themselves feel a little more sterile in comparison because they're disconnected from the rest of the world.
Though after billions of billions made in TT/OpenTTD and whatever imaginable railroad systems it lost most of it's magic for me. Every once in a while I install it, browse and add some mods (FISH of course) and... after I'm on +300% profit each year it starts to get boring.
Playing together with friends and with mods for different settings like Japan, Canada, etc. is what keeps the game interesting for me personally. It isn't about having a giant profit, but building interesting things.
Yeah, the economy is pretty easy to beat. I've found that using the cargodist option can spice it up a bit, it makes it a bit harder to print money using passenger lines. Nevertheless, the greatest challenge for me is fixing all my own past mistakes.
As told in Steven Levy's Hackers book, there were two groups in the TMRC. There was the group that went on train rides and did meticulous models on top of the track... and there was the systems and powers group that worked with wires and automation (from the telephone company) under the track.
From the Wikipedia article...
> The club was composed of several groups, including those who were interested in building and painting replicas of certain trains with historical and emotional values, those that wanted to do scenery and buildings, those that wanted to run trains on schedules, and those composing the "Signals and Power Subcommittee" who created the circuits that made the trains run. This last group would be among the ones who popularized the term "hacker" among many other slang terms, and who eventually moved on to computers and programming.
> ...
> At the club itself, a semi-automatic control system based on telephone relays was installed by the mid-1950s. It was called the ARRC (Automatic Railroad Running Computer). It could run a train over the entire set of track, in both directions, without manual intervention, throwing switches and powering tracks ahead of the train. A mainframe program was used to compute the path, and all modifications to the layout had to be compatible with this ability.
Seems to gloss over the physical space required to have a model train. A video game can come in many sizes from phones to consoles and is much more accessible and even portable.
Growing up, we had a 4'x8' sheet of plywood covered in the fake grass and then decked out with structures, trees, people, cars, and all sorts of stuff. It was a lot of fun setting it up, building the models, and deciding on a track layout. Took weeks building it. It took days to get bored with it. For some reason, we thought it a good idea to tack down the tracks for better stability, but it made it a nightmare to rearrange the tracks. However, it stayed like that for years and from time to time as I got older would fire it up and quickly bore of it again.
> Took weeks building it. It took days to get bored with it.
That's my experience as well. A guy I met in a store had inherited an absolutely massive Rokal set, a lesser known brand so there wasn't a lot of documentation about how it all worked. He asked me to get it all working. The whole installation on 8 full sized sheets of plywood had been cut up to move it into his basement, they'd cut a temporary hole in the floor to move the sheets in but all the wiring had been cut and there was zero documentation. It took many months to figure it all out and to get it connected to the point where it would all work reliably. But once that was done I think I looked at it for 30 minutes before moving on to something more interesting. I loved working on the set itself though, especially because I kept finding new details that had previously eluded me (such as working traffic lights!).
This is where sectional track is a godsend. Easy to rearrange before worrying about tacking it down. For example, Märklin C-track. Ballasted roadbed. Clicky connectors that stay connected. Metal bits for attaching power+control leads.
And for tacking it all down, Homasote makes it easy to detach+reattach and deadens sound.
Part of me feels like this is simply the result of it being an aged hobby. When most of the people involved in the hobby are of retirement age with plenty of money to spare, why would anyone try to compete on price?
That may have been why they were expensive in the past, but now it's pretty clear that they're expensive because they are niche and their buyers are old people with money.
My dad’s building a 1/12th scale railway at the cottage. Apparently demand is picking up according to a mom and pop shop he bought from, who suggested more boomers are retiring.
Im so sad about this.
I am 24, and have loved Model Trains my whole life. I grew up in India, where there was no model railroading scene (I picked it up as a toddler in the UK).
My drive for moving abroad was to have the space to make my own model train set. I got lucky and we made it to the States when I turned 18. But I still need to earn, get a house, before I can build my layout. Hope it sticks around until then.
My heart aches, I have such a passion for model trains. I’ve taken a few friends to shops and they always found it interesting. But no one buys anything. I don’t think kids will ever get into this, I blame the babyfication of Thomas and Friends more than anything else.
I've rebuilt a 40s-era Lionel train track system (mostly replaced the power plug to the control box), and ordered an AFX track from ebay just yesterday. The sizes don't mesh, but both are going on a plywood layout in the garage.
Modelleisenbahnfans in Deutschland steckten nach seinen Angaben im vergangenen Jahr angesichts gestiegener Lebenshaltungskosten weniger Geld in ihr Hobby. Deshalb habe sich der Umsatz etwas schwächer entwickelt als erhofft. Er habe aber gut ein Drittel über dem des Vor-Corona-Jahres 2019 gelegen. Und weil sich der Spielwarenmarkt einschließlich Modellbahnen 2023 eher rückläufig entwickelten, habe Piko Marktanteile gewinnen können.
roghly translated:
because of rising living costs model railway fans spent less money on their hobby in the last year. therefore revenue increased slower than expected, but it was still one third over 2019. and because the whole toy industry including model railways shrank somewhat in 2023, piko was able to gain marketshare.
tiny racks filled with tiny Cisco routers. with tiny cables management and tiny blinking LEDs everywhere.
You can even add buttons to simulate solar storms on your tiny microwave antena model which would change how the blinking lights work on the tiny routers.
And if you want to splurge like some train modelers do with fake grass and such you can maybe even go for the middle manager model as if it's walking around the server room as he tries to avoid the CEO that day.
I wonder if this also a consequence of the commodization of travel in general and daily commute in particular.
Taking the train (also applies to the plane), is much less an 'experience' that it was 50 years ago, and so the prestige around these objects also diminish, effectively reducing their value as toys too.
As a younger person who in theory is interested in model railways, the sad truth is that the drawbacks simply outweigh the benefits.
Model trains are physically large, so building a layout in my apartment is pretty much impossible. They are extremely expensive, and if you want to get something which can do more than literally run around in a circle you're looking at a $X000 setup cost. The "sexy" part (digitally controlling the trains) seems to be pretty much stuck with poorly-designed protocols from the 80s.
I like trains. I like DIY electronics. I like 3D printing. But given the barrier to entry, I'll just stick with OpenTTD or some kind of Euro Train Simulator game.
My friends are into Warhammer and DIY racing drones. If those hobbies have no trouble attracting younger people, the problem here really isn't young people's interest.
I've recently been designing a custom implementation of a DCC controller for a new model railroad I'm setting up - what don't you like about the protocol?
I find the protocol fascinating in that the data signal is combined with the power, so you just run everything over the two tracks.
Further, a transmitter is just a simple H-bridge that costs pennies...
It gets hacky when you want to read out CVs, since the DCC protocol is one way only. You need a good current sensor since most decoders encode the values into the current flow using the motor. It's a cute hack and somehow akin to morseing out with power LEDs.
This is a bit sad for a number of reasons: my dad used to have a setup when I was a kid, I had sets as a kid, and the Tech Model Railroad Club (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tech_Model_Railroad_Club) was a source of inspiration to me as a kid with a computer and a train set....
It's sad to see this appearing to trail off, but I agree with a previous poster, I think the retirement of more baby boomers and their nostalgia may yet give the market a boost.
I don’t think this is just model trains. I recently took an interest in naval history and became interested in building a scale model of USS Missouri or Iowa. After researching how I could produce a realistic looking teak deck, I realized how big the model would be and how I don’t have the space for that.
Son is into R/C Drifting. He's 21 and throws a considereable amount of money at it (though not crazy when you consider what Records/Cassettes/CDs cost in the 80's)
There's a crazy national involvement and it's pretty common to see two dozen guys watching the cars drift around the circut on Thursdays-Sunday nights.
The cars are crazy with LiPO amperages and full suspensions, active cooling, and programmable throttle profiles.
I guess the point is: It's social, and in-person, and has a lot of similarities to something model trains in a communal location would provide.
I'm glad R/C seems to be shifting to meet a younger demographic in a way that model railroading hasn't been able to. I recently bought an ARRMA and I'm blown away by how powerful it is compared to the Tamiya and HPI stuff I grew up with. It's fun to see the new R/C sports (drifting) and twists on existing hobbies (FPV becoming a new focus in R/C planes).
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[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 220 ms ] threadSo one of his daughters was my friend and classmate, and when we were growing up, of course, her father was already collecting model trains, and he had so many that every shelf of their home was occupied with model trains of various types.
My friend didn't visit many other homes when she was young, but once she finally went over to a friend's house, and she looked around, bewildered, and asked, "Where are all the trains?"
"Almost everyone working here is quite old"
"The amount of space this takes up is incredible, I wonder how people get into this hobby, I've never lived anywhere where I'd have enough space to set up a model railway long term"
It's kind of a shame too, it was the first time I think I've ever really appreciated the large scale model train installations. When I was younger I'd see them at random historical museums and mostly just think "yeah choo-choo sure does go in a circle haha". I think the San Diego museum did a good job of conveying that it isn't really just about the trains as much as it's about modeling the landscapes and towns the trains actually go through. Viewing it from the perspective of a massive scale diorama of some region really raised my overall appreciation for the whole endeavour.
I, in turn, moved on to smaller American (HO scale) and British (OO) trains, using the same room, but now find that the tables designed for big 1:22.5 trains have irregularities enough to make 1:87 trackwork unreliable. Will probably need to rework them.
The hobby itself has definitely changed though: Yes, today's modern models are higher quality than a lot of the old "Blue Box" Athearn kits, but they're also $50 instead of $7, and come ready-to-run, so the hobby aspect of building and customizing it is gone. Many models don't even come as an undecorated version anymore, if you wanted the classic "paint it for your own custom railway" narrative. You don't get the same "hours of fun per dollar" out of that side of the hobby anymore.
What's interesting is that there's definitely an opportunity for synergy with the rise of hobby electronics-- the trains have moved from "variable DC on the rails" to "AC with a command bus" and sometimes even Bluetooth, so there's a lot of interesting stuff you could do with computer or microcontroller interfacing. I bought a project for an automatic traffic-signal design using some 555 timers and capacitors, and thought "this is 10 lines of code on a $3 Arduino, for this generation of hobbyists."
Shops are closing-- I make it a point to try to find a model-railway shop and pick up something exotic when I go on holiday, but even pretty big cities don't have one, or it's a billion miles from anywhere. I was sort of saddened to get a note from Hattons (an excellent UK retailer-- surprisingly cheap shipping to the US) that they have started to wind down operations in the last month.
Berlin has two or three big shops and some smaller ones.
Tokyo has tons of them. They're even in the big, new shopping malls, along with huge dioramas.
So much "millenials killing X" discourse is just "property prices killing X" in disguise.
If people really want to do something, they make space/time available for it, even if it involves clubs, etc.
The number of people who want to build models in general is down, I suspect, given that we have so many other things to do with "free time".
There's other space-saving solutions, like layouts that swing up against the wall (like a Murphy bed), or that can be pulled up against the ceiling. Some handiwork required.
He owned a sizable property in California which included a large home and some attached apartments. They ran a boarding-house for immigrants, and later, my widowed grandmother became a landlady.
I was raised with a fervent love for railroads of all types. I had little engineer togs as a toddler and a professional photoshoot to prove it. We rode around on a scale railroad in the park. But most of all, my grandfather's labor of love was building a model train set for me in an upstairs bedroom.
It was essentially a simple affair; grandpa had built a large plywood table topped with Astroturf. The rails themselves were in a large figure-eight, with not much landscaping or scenery around. We concentrated on the technical bits: a good AC/DC transformer with variable knob, some nice rolling stock with the traditional freight-train assortment of cars, and a locomotive that had that smokestack where you could insert a little tablet and it'd puff out "steam" while it ran.
My sister and I loved that whole setup, and it was like catnip to us in our youth, at least until the Atari 2600 took over. The railroad remained the centerpiece of that room and a focal point of our entertainment for years and years, even after grandpa passed away. It was really a cool thing for an authentic railroad guy to pass that on to his grandchildren.
There's a lot you can do at shared spaces, but cost/availability/inconvenience of those is just such a big barrier to entry for many younger people.
And the people I was with (setting up the exhibit) were mostly younger (at the time) ranging from the 10 or so year old kids of the people leading it to mid 20s - not counting the leaders who were middle aged.
Everyone loved it and the number of visitors in that two week period or whatever it was would rival the total number of visitors the rest of the year.
But LEGO trains are not model trains (my goodness), they're toy trains - a completely and unrespectable thing.
But today I see LEGO themselves referring to the track as "L-gauge": https://www.lego.com/en-us/product/the-orient-express-train-... - which started out as almost a joke and is now getting some pretty serious attention.
If model railroading as a whole wants to survive and thrive, they will need to embrace the "toy" train.
(Lots of these museums are really just "fronts" for the member's hobby, after all, and it gets them out of the house.)
I love this condescending sounding distinction, it’s actually very accurate! When I was 12 or 13 I had an uncle that was into model railroading and I thought it looked so fun and cool! Then I started looking into it more and it’s not really (at least to me at that age) because it’s not a toy you take out of the box and play with a 100 different ways. You build a very static and detailed landscape, put your rails down, start the train up, and just sit back and look at it. Where’s the fun in that?
I just got a Lego train set for me and my kids and we’ve already built several different ways, crashed the train and rebuilt parts of multiple tiles, discovered you can program it with the new PoweredUp system, put mini figures on the roof of the cars, etc.
What people forget is that the new blood in the hobby comes from the young blood and trying to keep them out doesn't help.
And its just a branch of another big layout in Prague: https://www.kralovstvi-zeleznic.cz/en/
Also I know a few people who are into model train and I would not call them old. Also they use quite modern tech (resin 3D priters and fully automated train control).
As for the space issue, they even sorta sved that as well via modular layouts - you build a certain part of a layout that conforms to an interface spec (rail placement at edges, electrical connections) and then you can join other enthusiasts at events where they build massive layouts from these modules in a rented hall somewhere for a couple days.
Every member of a club would only have to bring a small section but you could still do really big layouts
https://nrail.org/NTRAK-Home
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTrak
As for age, it is not just the cost, but also the alienation of the young from messy analog physical dexterity, long low stimulus attention and slow progress in favor of high stimulus instant digital gratification.
I think the real problem is that y'all got houses to put a train set in for like $3.50 and the only people I know with houses are the ones who's parents put the money down and cosigned the loan. The models fit on a shelf in a tiny apartment with a roommate.
Maybe vote to approve some apartment blocks and public transit next time around?
Since I moved out of my moms place I could not bring my 3d printers, cnc machine or electronics equipment. I simply cant fit it in this tiny apartment with my wife.
I have lost these hobbies over the past two years to software entirely. Not necessarily a bad thing.
I guess my point is, you can lose your slower hobbies without even realizing, just due to circumstance. It's not necessarily the younger generation's "fault". It is often just the emergent consequence of the situation.
I suggest any boomers with this attitude check out what the kids are doing with Gunpla and Warhammer. It's a space issue, not a "stimulus" or "physical dexterity" one.
That being said, the same place I buy my monster and spaceship painting equipment from seems to still do a decent trade in benders and slips.
And size is still an issue, the smallest ship I could build is about the size of the largest "miniature" I have.
How many times did boomers look at the two buttons before them, "make housing affordable" and "make housing a good investment," and which button did they press every singe time?
Not if my 4yo has anything to say about it. Upgrade path from Brio (wooden) to electric trains.
A train is very predictable - the sound, the motion, the path... for the same reason that children like having the same book read to them again and again, the train fills that role too.
I've long forgotten about model railroads and these days I live in small city apartments and move every few years, so even if I'd managed to retain the interest I have no practical way to build or store my own models, and generally prefer to spend money on experiences instead of things. I'm basically the problem millennial this whole thread is about.
One winter we mixed it with Lego from the Harry Potter series and pretended the train was the one going to Hogwarts.
Toys that still work 40 years later are amazing.
Younger parents who didn't play with model trains are also in awe. For those who have enough room it's really a nice thing to do to play together with your kid(s).
It s not crazy pricey either if you don't go wild.
Years ago I read that Märklin held the record for an engine running continuously out-of-the-box. Like, it ran for two weeks solid before it finally melted down.
The thing is, I don't expect I'll necessarily have this kind of space forever (and almost certainly not this particular one), so it's hard to justify things like cutting a hole in the side of the house to crane in an industrial lathe. I'm planning on getting more hobbyist-scale stuff (though still space-consuming) with a goal of using it to build my own, smaller, portable workshop (a small lathe, provisions for using it for milling, a selection of cutting tools and the necessary meta-tools to maintain them, a pack-up forge/foundry).
The ultimate dream is something the size of approximately a (possibly large) suitcase or footlocker that can be used to recreate itself (think RepRap but a whole, miniature machine shop), so that I can 1) continue in my hobby even if I have to move into an apartment, and 2) share this with other people by helping them bootstrap something similar. The David A. Gingery book series ("Build Your Own Machine Shop From Scrap") is my inspiration here, though so much of the series would be a lot easier if you could start with some existing machine tools instead of having to do literally all of it from scratch).
I started in an apartment with the small Shurline lathe and mill and they were quite fun and capable for their size.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNje4KTLZT4
It is 1:450 scale and half the size of the Z scale.
https://www.tgauge.us
When describing starter sets, the track area is dimensioned in mm. https://www.tgauge.us/product/452/20/lner-125-hst-train-set
> The 120mm loop included in this starter set will cover an area of 253mm x 372mm (10" x 14 3/4").
https://twitter.com/Noahpinion/status/1690894492688437248
Young people own homes at higher rates than they did in the 90s:
https://twitter.com/Noahpinion/status/1690951544240484352
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/historic-bay-area-mode...
There's another one in the hills above Palo Alto that's open to the public once a year. Now I can't find it online. Anyone? It's not Roaring Camp.
This was a real train on private land, with a machine shop and a crew of volunteers. It had a loop of several miles.
I've ridden on the Roaring Camp Railroad, but not the Portola Valley one.
A big part of it is funded by doing interactive Polar Express recreation trip/shows complete with singing, dancing, hot cocoa, cookies and a visit by Santa. They do two trips every day and three on weekends from before Thanksgiving to Christmas, each with several hundred passengers. It's a great experience that's pure magic for kids. The whole thing is done with top-notch production value and officially licensed by Disney. Tickets aren't cheap but well-worth the price and always sold-out with long waiting lists. When our kid was that age, getting tickets was challenging enough that we just got a yearly family membership to the museum to ensure priority selection and it became a tradition our kid still talks about every holiday. If you have (or know) kids of that age, check if there's similar holiday train excursions in your area.
We also have several smaller train clubs in the surrounding suburbs and rural areas including a couple who own and run full-sized trains on a few miles of closed track they maintain. There are also several large area parks which host clubs that run smaller "kiddie-style" trains on loops of around a half-mile. These are generally run by volunteers and free/donation. So at least in our area, I'm happy to report that train hobbies seem to be doing pretty well, although I don't know about the home-based scale train end of things.
https://redwood-valley-railway.business.site/
I think younger generations are drawn to cheaper and easier to access forms of entertainment that provide similar intellectual experience. It's a shame for the hobby, but I find it a very reasonable thing to happen.
When I was little my brothers and I played a lot together with Lego.
Now we’re all over 40 and occasionally play on a heavily modded Minecraft server to scratch that itch.
In many ways it’s so much more practical, essentially unlimited building materials with no real cost, no issue with physical space in the house, we can do it casually in the evenings while doing voice calls on Discord, no unpacking or packing up needed before or after.
There are even great rail cart mods for those interested in track switching type activities.
We make a point of doing in person LANs about every quarter, also for old times sake.
Though after billions of billions made in TT/OpenTTD and whatever imaginable railroad systems it lost most of it's magic for me. Every once in a while I install it, browse and add some mods (FISH of course) and... after I'm on +300% profit each year it starts to get boring.
The original home of many people who became hackers (old use of the word) was the TMRC at MIT. Tech Model Railroad Club - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tech_Model_Railroad_Club
As told in Steven Levy's Hackers book, there were two groups in the TMRC. There was the group that went on train rides and did meticulous models on top of the track... and there was the systems and powers group that worked with wires and automation (from the telephone company) under the track.
From the Wikipedia article...
> The club was composed of several groups, including those who were interested in building and painting replicas of certain trains with historical and emotional values, those that wanted to do scenery and buildings, those that wanted to run trains on schedules, and those composing the "Signals and Power Subcommittee" who created the circuits that made the trains run. This last group would be among the ones who popularized the term "hacker" among many other slang terms, and who eventually moved on to computers and programming.
> ...
> At the club itself, a semi-automatic control system based on telephone relays was installed by the mid-1950s. It was called the ARRC (Automatic Railroad Running Computer). It could run a train over the entire set of track, in both directions, without manual intervention, throwing switches and powering tracks ahead of the train. A mainframe program was used to compute the path, and all modifications to the layout had to be compatible with this ability.
Growing up, we had a 4'x8' sheet of plywood covered in the fake grass and then decked out with structures, trees, people, cars, and all sorts of stuff. It was a lot of fun setting it up, building the models, and deciding on a track layout. Took weeks building it. It took days to get bored with it. For some reason, we thought it a good idea to tack down the tracks for better stability, but it made it a nightmare to rearrange the tracks. However, it stayed like that for years and from time to time as I got older would fire it up and quickly bore of it again.
That's my experience as well. A guy I met in a store had inherited an absolutely massive Rokal set, a lesser known brand so there wasn't a lot of documentation about how it all worked. He asked me to get it all working. The whole installation on 8 full sized sheets of plywood had been cut up to move it into his basement, they'd cut a temporary hole in the floor to move the sheets in but all the wiring had been cut and there was zero documentation. It took many months to figure it all out and to get it connected to the point where it would all work reliably. But once that was done I think I looked at it for 30 minutes before moving on to something more interesting. I loved working on the set itself though, especially because I kept finding new details that had previously eluded me (such as working traffic lights!).
This is where sectional track is a godsend. Easy to rearrange before worrying about tacking it down. For example, Märklin C-track. Ballasted roadbed. Clicky connectors that stay connected. Metal bits for attaching power+control leads.
And for tacking it all down, Homasote makes it easy to detach+reattach and deadens sound.
The sensors and engine can be controlled via Bluetooth Low Energy: https://github.com/topics/poweredup
But every other toy industry has taken on mass production and most toys can now be produced mostly by machine for cents.
Yet still model trains are beyond the budget of most 8 year olds.
And while we're at it, lets add moving block signalling, app-control, departure boards and other 20th century features...
Toy trains are available and cheap(ish) - but they are often not really the same as models.
https://www.lego.com/en-us/product/freight-train-60336 is a toy train that's $200 for a "full kit"
But I haven't seen an HO-scale toy train in ages, sometimes around Christmas you see the "larger toy train around the train" style thing for $50-150.
My drive for moving abroad was to have the space to make my own model train set. I got lucky and we made it to the States when I turned 18. But I still need to earn, get a house, before I can build my layout. Hope it sticks around until then.
My heart aches, I have such a passion for model trains. I’ve taken a few friends to shops and they always found it interesting. But no one buys anything. I don’t think kids will ever get into this, I blame the babyfication of Thomas and Friends more than anything else.
Modelleisenbahnfans in Deutschland steckten nach seinen Angaben im vergangenen Jahr angesichts gestiegener Lebenshaltungskosten weniger Geld in ihr Hobby. Deshalb habe sich der Umsatz etwas schwächer entwickelt als erhofft. Er habe aber gut ein Drittel über dem des Vor-Corona-Jahres 2019 gelegen. Und weil sich der Spielwarenmarkt einschließlich Modellbahnen 2023 eher rückläufig entwickelten, habe Piko Marktanteile gewinnen können.
roghly translated:
because of rising living costs model railway fans spent less money on their hobby in the last year. therefore revenue increased slower than expected, but it was still one third over 2019. and because the whole toy industry including model railways shrank somewhat in 2023, piko was able to gain marketshare.
tiny racks filled with tiny Cisco routers. with tiny cables management and tiny blinking LEDs everywhere.
You can even add buttons to simulate solar storms on your tiny microwave antena model which would change how the blinking lights work on the tiny routers.
And if you want to splurge like some train modelers do with fake grass and such you can maybe even go for the middle manager model as if it's walking around the server room as he tries to avoid the CEO that day.
Taking the train (also applies to the plane), is much less an 'experience' that it was 50 years ago, and so the prestige around these objects also diminish, effectively reducing their value as toys too.
Model trains are physically large, so building a layout in my apartment is pretty much impossible. They are extremely expensive, and if you want to get something which can do more than literally run around in a circle you're looking at a $X000 setup cost. The "sexy" part (digitally controlling the trains) seems to be pretty much stuck with poorly-designed protocols from the 80s.
I like trains. I like DIY electronics. I like 3D printing. But given the barrier to entry, I'll just stick with OpenTTD or some kind of Euro Train Simulator game.
My friends are into Warhammer and DIY racing drones. If those hobbies have no trouble attracting younger people, the problem here really isn't young people's interest.
I find the protocol fascinating in that the data signal is combined with the power, so you just run everything over the two tracks.
Further, a transmitter is just a simple H-bridge that costs pennies...
There's a crazy national involvement and it's pretty common to see two dozen guys watching the cars drift around the circut on Thursdays-Sunday nights.
The cars are crazy with LiPO amperages and full suspensions, active cooling, and programmable throttle profiles.
I guess the point is: It's social, and in-person, and has a lot of similarities to something model trains in a communal location would provide.