Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?
I also love learning about mechanical engineering and manufacturing, but have never actually tried making anything.
Lately I have been interested in buying things that are made in the USA. One household item that I would like to buy is a toaster; I did a lot of searching online and this seems to be something that has a decent amount of demand.
Here is an example: https://www.usalovelist.com/toasters-made-in-the-usa/
>The made in USA item that we hear readers are looking for the most is the toaster. In fact, ‘Toasters made in the USA” is such a frequently used search term that there are many articles out on the internet filled with false in information, just to capture this search traffic.
There does seem to be a market opportunity for a nice quality toaster made in the USA.
My question is: as a software engineer with 0 experience building physical things, should I try building this? I have plenty of space to set up a small operation and a little capital to get started building. What are the pitfalls? Has anyone with a software background moved into manufacturing physical items like this?
Also: is anyone interested in building this with me?
463 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 326 ms ] threadSpace to improve exist, heating elements need fresh designs and more consistant heat distribution, should also be simple, I dont want options I want toast quick and easy.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=1OfxlSG6q5Y
Hardware burns capital way faster than software (in general).
Though it’s easier to spin BS reasons to burn billions on software maybe, since no one is expecting to actually hold the thing?
It's slightly slower than starting an airline or just making a giant money bonfire.
All OP will have afterwards is a bunch of unsold toasters and a newfound appreciation for bankruptcy protection.
my list of complaints
- strong smell of chemicals when i first started using it - can be hard to remove things without burning myself e.g. english muffins - sometimes it burns things/sometimes it doesn't toast them enough. i have figured out which settings work for some common use cases, but it feels like a toaster should be able to figure it out w/out crazy complexity.
* Sorry, you must complete a critical system update before proceeding.
* Wi-Fi unavailable, please check the network.
* Your AccuToast (TM) subscription has expired. Please update your details on the web.
* Non-genuine bread detected, please ensure you purchase AccuToast (TM) certified bread.
* Tampering detected, contact manufacturer.
backup systems!
> Wi-Fi unavailable, please check the network.
Ethernet and satellite connectivity!
> Your AccuToast (TM) subscription has expired. Please update your details on the web.
bread delivery service! (like hp ink)
> Non-genuine bread detected, please ensure you purchase AccuToast (TM) certified bread.
Right, you cant just laser the images onto anything.
> Tampering detected, contact manufacturer.
A flying toaster that returns to the mother-ship when poorly treated.
edit:
The true American toaster:
It slices a whole loaf of bread, deep fries it then sugar coats the slices in randomized blue white and red patterns with stars. It should be gold with a picture of Trump on the side.
I got a toaster and kettle combo from a premium appliance manufacturer for Christmas. I've since seen the exact same kit in Aldi under their own brand. It's not just similar, it's the exact same product.
The Kmart stuff is at least value for money and sometimes is quality too and owning it makes the most sense.
I worked for a company that made customized versions of relatively basic electrical devices and they didn't spend much money on it (couple thousand for the prototypes and the devices they disassembled to copy). The one pitfall they did note was that being the best in quality was difficult and expensive and focused on being valuable in another niche.
I am not sure that you need to make a good toaster. It may be sufficient to have an American toaster, even if it is no better than a typical toaster.
You can get NA versions, but they aren't cheap.
I'm not sure why that company survived and US variants didn't.
What I've found is that regulations make it impossible to sell simple machines, labor costs make it impossible to compete on price, lawyers make it impossible to go to market without being sued, and consumers who say they want reliable, well-made goods will balk and buy cheap stuff en masse when it comes down to the wire. And that's if you actually succeed in designing and manufacturing a good product.
Someone could do it, I think. But I'm deterred by all the stuff I just wrote, and the people who succeed in businesses that seriously challenge the status quo are the ones aren't deterred by that stuff. And for every one guy who does succeed in pressuring the status quo, a hundred guys flame out... but again, guys who succeed aren't deterred by that either!
This would be my biggest concern. The potential field full of landmines that is the patent process would give me pause. Not spending the money to properly research because of bootstrapping the process could ultimately be more expensive if some other company comes after you for patent infringement.
Whatever your idea is, I would definitely do some investigating before investing too much time and effort getting too far down the road to ultimately hit a patent caused dead end.
Just because one side's legal playbook says delay, the other side can equally try to speed things along. Underestimate opposing counsel at your own expense, especially when they are funded with deeper pockets than yours.
And I've never really had much of a problem with cheap toasters being unreliable in the first place. But I guess there are people who do?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law
Gresham's law only applies when someone forces you to accept both moneys at par. Historically, people would require discounts for the bad coins, when they could.
That's also why coins meant for an international audience where consistently of high quality, even when the domestic coins of the same issuer where being debased. (The Spanish dollar was a very good example of this. That's what the Americans used to use.)
And that's exactly because while you can force your own subjects to accept your coins, you have to convince the foreigners. Reputation is key. No 'bad money drives out good money' here. Just the opposite.
I even looked into making my own toaster (though not quite from scratch[0]) but eventually decided I wasn't willing to take on the risk of an untested electrical heating device, in the same way I would be wary of the cheapest toaster from ABCDEFG etc. on Amazon.
Not long after, a customer brought a British-made toaster[1] into my repair shop. I had warned her about the impossibility of getting parts for toasters, but she'd actually already written in to the company and ordered a replacement heating element! It was surprisingly easy to work on, as the timer only controlled the heating element and the pop-up was a manual lever. At first glance that looked like a cheap solution, but on closer inspection it was built well and meant to last. (Costs a lot because it's not cheap.) I hear they still make some like that but the company's cheaper products aren't built the same.
0: https://www.dezeen.com/2009/06/27/the-toaster-project-by-tho...
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualit
Considering the various federal agencies do this for many many other things for certification/regs ... why not have them also do ratings?
You need objective tests and experienced testers. We know from restaurant recommendations online (4 stars +/_ .2 stars for EVERYTHING) that in the general public there is far too much variance in "good".
Of course the "experts" often fall into the "audiophile" trap in stereos, where a perfectly functional cheap alternative is downplayed for a laundry list of features or a pretty packaging. I mean, we are talking about toasters here.
I wonder how much easier it is for OP to simply walk into China and get a factory setup to do this. Probably some bribes involved but the net cost might be less than regulatory approval here. Then get Chinese manufacturing work and the reverse-migrate a factory here.
If I was overlord of the US, I would be actively pushing US companies to start doing this with heavy US government coopoeration. You know, like China did to us.
So the government is supposed to codify what makes pasta is tasty? Or whether pineapple on pizza is good or bad?
> If I was overlord of the US, I would be actively pushing US companies to start doing this with heavy US government coopoeration. You know, like China did to us.
Huh?
It's crap.
If you want good toasters you need to hunt older models from 30+ years ago.
My $25 toaster works fine. And it's got the modern stainless steel look that blends in nicely with other modern kitchen appliances.
What benefits would a toaster from 1994 or earlier give me? My bread and bagels are currently successfully toasted.
One that toasts your bread slices evenly every time, without under toasting it or burning it, and without you needing to fiddle with the timer know all the time in order to mitigate those issues.
If your 25$ toaster achieves that it's the lottery winning exception, not the rule. Most toaster are just terrible at toasting evenly even after you fiddle with the knob to find the right Goldielocks setting.
I figure out the right number/setting for the bread I like and it toasts.
What is "even" toasting? Like I genuinely can't tell if my toaster is uneven or whether I should suddenly be unhappy with it. I mean I guess it's not the precise exact shade of tan in every spot, but I've never seen that in my life, even at fancy restaurant breakfasts.
If one part of my toast is a different shade of brown I don't have a problem. I mean, it toasts and it doesn't burn. And I don't think I've won any kind of lottery.
I just feel like I'm missing something here. Cheap modern toasters seem... perfectly fine.
(Mine is a two-slice toaster from Hamilton Beach I bought for $25 which has 11K reviews on Amazon, 4.4 stars [1]. So most of the reviewers seem pretty happy too. It does seem like there are some 1-star reviewers who got duds where the inside and outside toast at different rates, or it doesn't toast half the slice. So maybe there's a quality control issue, but it seems like most people's units, including mine, don't have those problems.)
[1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KZ729F6
Among your examples I think this one is interesting.
Speed Queen is regarded as among the best washing machines + dryers and they are made in the US. They are extremely well built, they feel really sturdy to use and also are known for being extremely reliable.
I guess what I'm imagining is the Speed Queen of toasters..
I have plenty smart devices with stupid apps, but I would pay premium for a quality product with a simple API and no third party servers anytime.
Personally I base many buying decisions around 'hackability'
Edit:// actually I think this is a coming market as Google only recently started to support smart devices without third party servers for their home app so before that local only ment no Google home most of the time.
For a toaster, what you need to do is recreate the Greatest Toaster of All Time, the Sunbeam T-20. (And then after you do that, recreate the Sunbeam CG-1 waffle iron.)
I never heard of Speed Queen, or even seen one, but someone recommended them on here a few weeks ago
This article does say it is not an efficient machine. they tweaked the normal cycle to pass the DoE efficiency test (but your clothes are not washed), and left alone the inefficient cycles which are not checked by DoE: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/speed-queen-revie...
I will grant them this: the branding is not lying, they are fast as fuck.
They are fast, but the clothes aren't cleaned properly.
I did notice that the dryers (which I think are the same brand) have a hard time properly drying some articles such as thick wool socks within their programmed time.
A toaster might well be a good space for that - cheap enough that it can be expensive in relative terms without being out of reach.
But figuring out the marketing of that feels almost as hard as the product.
I suspect a lot of exaggerated appeal to "why aren't things as good/simple/reliable as they used to be?" that might not be all about toasters, but where even an expensive toaster can be cheap enough to become a symbolic buy for people.
Dyson is a more glaring example (fans, vacuums, hair dryers), albeit with expensively achieved differentiation on engineering and manufacturing quality.
Plus, you know, there are some nice Chinese stuff now and they have an economy of scale that the US simply can't match.
Or go the other way and give it a rainbow pattern? Hell, put one on each side so you can flip it depending on which relatives are coming over.
What I was not prepared for was how much better quality they were by a mile. It's not even close, they're so much more sturdy and well made and they work so much better than the ones I'd had before.
Like the microwave is incredibly consistent in heating, it has a rotary knob for power level so you basically never get the on fire on one side and freezing on the other side thing if you don't want to, stuff like that. The toaster is a joy, it has an elegant little display, the toast is always flawless.
So there's definitely a market for better stuff too. Unfortunately the OP without any prior experience might not be able to hit that bar either.
And they really are superior-quality devices.
Is Breville EU/Sage appliances the high quality one, or is Breville US/AU/CA the high quality one?
Sage EU is Breville US/CA/AU/NZ. Those are high quality. It’s an Aussie company.
Breville EU and possibly UK (old agreements that may well predate the EEC, so don’t know any details) not the same; have never used and cannot comment.
Seems to me that the Sage/Breville have more bells and whistles (a LED light count-down, bread type selector...) whereas the Bosch seems to be a more no-nonsense one with better hardware inside (quartz glass heating elements etc)?
A toaster toasts bread (and waffles, or other thin flour things). That's it.
A toaster oven began as a category of device that looked like a tiny oven but was built to be a toaster that could do a little bit more than just toast bread. But it's evolved, and modern toaster ovens can take a quarter-sheet pan (it's based on US standard, so it's 13"x9", but more or less the same size is used worldwide in commercial kitchens), sometimes a little larger.
I have never owned a Breville toaster. I have owned three of their toaster ovens, two of which I've given to friends and family when I moved up in size. I don't turn my main oven on, at all, except for holidays, because the toaster oven heats up and finishes cooking the food before the big oven even gets up to temperature. And I live in the southern US, so extra heat in the kitchen is usually heat that the air conditioner has to remove - it very rarely is helping me keep warm (think AGA ranges - those would never work here).
I wait for the sub-freezing nights, of which we usually have 20-30 a year at most (no kidding), to run the self-clean cycle on the big oven.
I was specifically looking for info about toasters (not toaster ovens) because ours (quite old generic one) recently stopped ejecting toasted slices. I've also read quite a lot of positive Sage/Breville reviews and test results so that's why I was curious about real-life experiences.
In the end, I managed to track down one of the last Bosch models ( https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/bosch-styline ), which was a bit cheaper (but still quite expensive for a toaster) and seems to work fine.
However, they claim that this model "uses quartz heating for even toasting" - yeah, no. ;)
I looked at a condo once with an interesting sort of art deco kitchen on and a custom refrigerator that fit the theme. My first thought was, it’s got to be hell to get parts for that or find someone who knows how to work on it.
Used to be. We had the same Miele devices for years, but I think their modern versions got downhill as well.
Worse is the warranty: we had an LED strip behind the crisper drawer fail after about 3 years and it was “Sorry; you’re out of warranty, that will be $220 in parts and $260 in labor”.
Revolution Cooking sells $280 and $350 toasters. They have touch screens, dozens of modes optimized for different kinds of bread, gluten-free mode and 7 toastiness levels. One of my colleagues has one and loves it dearly.
It appears to be a US design firm that uses contract manufacturing:
“we developed a proprietary alloy, a new, more efficient component design system, and intelligent heating algorithms that adjust in real-time.”
“Tom assembled a team of world class engineers, designers and product marketers in Boston, MA, where Revolution Cooking is headquartered today.”
https://revcook.com/pages/compare
"simple machines"?
If I climb in a modern car that I remote started from my cell phone, automatically adjusted the seat to my preferred profile, and booted up an onboard computer to allow me to pick between media playback and navigation, and I say "I miss when this model of car was simpler back in the day", are you seriously going to try and make the claim that there's been no increase in complexity?
Regulatory capture & gratuitous litigation has made true entrepreneurship impossible in many domains. It's state-endorsed oligopoly of heirs, heiresses, and corporations.
I'd suggest, at the very least:
* Hiring somebody who knows manufacturing to walk you through what you need to set this up.
* Figuring out the cost of building a toaster in the USA
* Figuring out the regulatory hurdles.
* Figuring out if the people who keep clamoring for a national toaster infrastructure are willing to pay the actual money that requires.
My experience is that a large number of people who profess to want built-in-USA want this only at a price point meeting current toasters. But with much better quality.
If I were to jump into this market, I'd seriously consider running this as a lifestyle luxury item business, charging the few true believers a fortune for a "bespoke toaster hand-made entirely in the U.S.A", build them to last forever, and then maybe automate and build out into the mid-range from there.
I'd still only do this with somebody with manufacturing knowledge working with/for me. And ideally with somebody else's money.
You can also use the same trick to create talking plush toys, just hide the HF inside. ;)
In an ironic way given your background, toaster ovens probably set you up against untenable competition: everybody who has ever built a toaster oven is currently jamming SBCs into them to run PID for "smart toasters". Prices are coming down and features are going up, plus these are product line extensions that create further price pressure on "non-smart toasters".
There could be room to do something interesting with slot toasters, which are sort of a forgotten category.
It's unique for sure. It's a bit pricey but other firewalls were less-than-statisfactory. Chinese Mini PC boxes were too little, Supermicro Front I/O boxes were too much. I don't exactly like Netgate's alternative either.
The above example comes from a colleague who used to work in the SSD business.
This line caught my attention - "I also love learning about mechanical engineering and manufacturing"
How do you go about that? Have you found any good books, YouTube videos, etc. that are accessible for us SWEs?
The secret life of machines.
Engineer guy
Tech ingredients
Asianometry
Fran's Lab
And soon mine!
What will it cost you to make?
For toasters or similar, what is the typical ratio of manufacturing cost to retail price? Is this enough to pay for distribution, marketing, logistics and returns?
Dualit is in the UK and has been manufacturing high quality, hand built toaster for a long time, but most consumers would balk at the prices they ask for their appliances and I doubt you as a startup would be able to manufacture a toaster any cheaper.
https://www.dualit.com/collections/classic-toasters https://www.dualit.com/collections/spares
Frankly, I don't even own one, in spite of being a champion of the "buy it once" mentality. But it's on the bucket list.
The incredibly loud mechanical timer drove us all nuts. We always forgot to change the heating element (#slices) selector, so invariably ended up with one uncooked piece of bread. The pop up function is beefy but difficult to get escape velocity on small items. They eventually ditched it and went back to a £20 long slice Cookworks from Argos. They still have the Aga (also bloody annoying).
I paid about 3x what I would normally pay for a toaster for one on eBay. I expect it to last much more than 3x as long (a decent standard toaster usually lasts us around 3 years before something breaks unrepairably).
I personally like avoiding buying from manufacturers in places without modern labor laws and I frequently buy American made products, but for me anywhere in Europe is equivalent to America.
I would guess that the group of people for whom made in England is not sufficient and who would also spend $400 on a toaster is probably pretty tiny.