Ask HN: What's the best car without undesirable features?
I've been increasingly dismayed by the direction automakers have been going with vehicle design. They keep packing anti-features into their lineups that are hard to avoid. Do you know of any modern cars that don't have the following features?
1. Internet connectivity. If the car is connected, it's tracking me.
2. Remote anti-theft. If someone else can disable my car, I don't own it.
3. Subscription features. I want to own my car.
4. Touchscreens. They are a safety hazard.
There are some features I do want as well:
A: All wheel or 4wd. It snows where I live.
B: >= 30mpg or 250mi range if EV.
182 comments
[ 5.3 ms ] story [ 232 ms ] threadI used to have a 15 Rav4. There was a shitty touchscreen but if you were just trying to interact with it minimally and just wanted to be able to pause music or skip a song, there was physical buttons on the steering wheel so you'd never have to touch/look at a screen. It fits all your other criteria too, except the mpg.
Just buy a mid-2010's honda civic or a toyota camry.
4wd will get you moving from a dead stop as long as you aren't bottomed out. I've gotten several cars un-stuck with both a pickup truck and a UTV in 4wd, neither of which were bothered by the snow that had left the cars marooned.
AWD is better than FWD with snow tires if and only if it also has snow tires.
Not having enough grip is an issue. Summer tires become useless when the road is very cold, or snowy, or icy. It’s physics and while driving slow helps, it’s still unsafe.
It’s not uncommon to see cars with summer tires struggling to climb the tiniest uphill roads with the first ice in October because some people forget that it gets cold every year. Good for you that you never got stuck or crashed, but it doesn’t mean it’s safe.
My 2008 mini had an iPod adapter. The Bluetooth feature only supported BT calling. No GPS or touchscreens, plenty of knobs and physical switches.
My 2012 Ford had Sync 2 which added Bluetooth audio for music, but otherwise only had a three line LCD for status
The only modern feature I would really miss is adaptive cruise control, otherwise this is my sweet spot for auto tech
You can find this information in fords service documentation and from public comments from the ford ceo. I primarily work with Ford vehicles (comma.ai, self driving addons) so this is a personal knowledge dump from various service manuals, car hacking forums and the like
There are a wide range of cars I would consider. Say a Toyota Camry or a Honda Accord or a Nissan Altima. Lately I have been partial to Buicks. An old Nissan Leaf with a shot battery can still go 70 miles which makes it a great second or third car in a household.
Cars from the 1996 model year forward are basically modern because they support the OBD II diagnostic standard and also the database for parts was rationalized around then. My son has a 1996 Buick and there is no problem getting parts, we considered up to about 2010 when we were looking.
See the thread about his car here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39035535
Recent used cars are crazy expensive now so it not so daunting to expect some repairs on an older car, be creative looking for one that fits your needs.
There's more to cars in snowy climate than driving. OP clearly wants AWD, why tell him he doesn't really want it? As someone who's lived North most of their life, AWD is clearly a big advantage both for driving and for getting unstuck.
Have you never been snowed in by a snow plow and have to spend an hour trying to get out of a snow bank because your stupid front wheels won't grip? And then they finally grip but you drive a bit too far and you get over another snow bank and the front wheels are now lifted, losing all chances of getting out without spending another hour digging?
So in the end you arrive to work 2 hours late and with wet clothes from all the sweat and snow that got in while you fell repeatedly pushing your car?
The AWD vehicle has a more complex drivetrain, will be more expensive to maintain and probably get worse gas mileage. Friends of mine swear by Subaru but I think they are crazy. If I wanted AWD I think I’d look for a small SUV like a Ford Escape.
Subaru does do a very good job with the symmetrical AWD, letting you feel overconfident and forget that you have awful braking traction.
I took my G37x to just shy of 300,000 miles with no major issues, and it wouldn’t get stuck until the snow was above its bumpers.
I don't think I'd ever get one of the premium brand cars new (e.g. Acura, Lexus, Mercury, etc.) but the premium you pay for a premium brand is a lot less in a used car than a new car. Also an older premium car is going to more technically up to date than an older entry level car.
I usually buy 2 ish maybe 3 years old, with <30,000 miles but I’ll probably go a little higher the next time I purchase.
When I bought the Infiniti though, my desired specs were based on price (I paid $18k when I bought my 2013 Infiniti g37x in 2015).
Having awd, and above 300hp. My unexpected expenses have been wheel bearing replacements. But aside from that nothing major.
My next car purchase is a convertible probably a bmw m6, or a Mercedes amg 63 s.
I can’t get over knowing however that both of those are bad choices in cars to buy.
So instead I’ll probably buy something with less hp, awd, convertible, and higher reliability/cost to own. If it exists.
That being said, I would not trade my AWD Mazda 3. I've had to rock it once so far this season the morning after I plunged it into an unplowed slot during the last lake effect storm.
AWD isn't a necessity, but it sure feels like a cheat-code. No bricks, no kitty litter. I haven't had to exit my vehicle in the last years I've been driving it around upstate NY.
The sibling comment that says "Four-wheel drive is a crutch to get you into situations your brakes can't get you out of" is right. It always seemed like the stuck & crashed vehicles on the side of the roads were 4WD and AWD - because their owners had a sense of invincibility that they felt exempted them from the need to take extra time and drive slowly and carefully in the snow.
Hopefully the airbag in the steering wheel is not integrated with the horn in a vinyl housing.
The vinyl shrinks with age, and eventually to the point where there is sufficient pressure to continuously honk the horn.
When that happened to the 1997 Le Sabre I bought for my kid, the options were disconnecting the horn or replacing the airbag. The replacement options were NOS at around $1600 and around $800 for salvage.
Parts online not including labor, the colors were the last ones anyone would choose (non matching of course) and there was no guarantee the vinyl hadn’t shrunk to a similar point.
Eventually we bought him a Tacoma. I thought I gamed the system. I didnt.
Hopefully your mileage will vary.
Wouldn't a simpler and cheaper solution be to run an extra circuit to the horn? You'd then honk it by pressing a new button (or use an unused one) in the dashboard.
The difficulty mainly depends on how hard it is to get a pair of wires from the horn across the firewall into the dashboard. On some cars this would take no more than an hour in total.
The thinking about it reality was horn current is switched through relays, there aren’t obvious places to mount the new in-cabin portion of the horn, there aren’t well considered off the shelf options for the horn triggering system, and the horn is a critical safety system.
And I didn't have a garage; never wrenched as a vocation nor much as a hobby; and my most motörhead friend lived in another state.
Keep in mind the center of the steering wheel is designed to explode in an accident so hard objects attached to it will missile around the cabin if the airbag triggers.
The dash was a lot of curved soft surfaces covering ducts and wires were it wasn’t instruments and controls.
Cars ain’t what they used to be.
I don't think (but I may be wrong) that US law stipulates that the horn must be operated via the steering wheel, and modifying it is trickier for the reasons you mention.
You could have a custom horn via a pull chain, see e.g. [1].
Anyway, this was clearly ages ago. I only chimed in to note that there's often non-OEM fixes for car troubles that are much cheaper, and will pass inspections.
If all you need is a functional horn you can get a working one at a junkyard. Then all you need is to mount it somewhere, a 12V power supply, and a switch.
Even if you can't do any of this yourself paying a mechanic to do it would be a small fraction of the $1600 you noted, which presumably was a full steering wheel replacement (airbag and all).
1. https://www.lalightbars.co.uk/hadley-air-horn-pull-chain-kit...
My 2012 LEAF could only drive 35 city miles to a charge in winter when I sold it at 6 years old.
Last time I was car shopping base trim ford fiesta's were under $10k and came with a manual transmission, no power windows, no power locks, no cruise control and a standard double DIN radio. Made less than five years ago.
abetterbid has listings of where local auctions are -- these are often good for that type of purchase.
If you want to buy new and don't mind forking over more money than most would consider reasonable you could probably buy a brand new ford escape interceptor or tahoe ppv which is pretty much guaranteed to be as barebones and 'dumb' on the inside since they're meant to be converted to police vehicles. Don't think many dealers would order them for individuals but if you search around there's probably some out there that will.
- analog controls, buttons, knobs for all internal functionality like temperature control, sunroof, seat control
- plugin hybrid
- reasonable mileage on only gas
- electric only mode for city driving
I really like that all the auto stuff can be turned off if you want, and all the capability of the screen but still having physical buttons. Plus I got 36mpg on my first road trip with cruise control set at 85.
Otherwise buy or fix an older vehicle. Or go nuts doing an EV conversion.
https://store.evtv.me/ and https://youtube.com/@EVTVMotors
It’s expensive. It’s almost certainly never worth it. But it looks like it can be hella fun.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineos_Grenadier
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46001237/toyota-land-crui...
- Comes in (rear biased) AWD
- Can be found in stickshift
- Can get close to 30MPG in highway driving
- Can disable most of the stuff if you’re willing to get your hands dirty, and CarPlay is an easy add on head unit replacement
- B58 engine, which is pretty much proving to be one of the most reliable modern engines
- More power than you need on the streets, but you’re not paying for M parts and repairs
I traded mine in a few months ago since I wanted something else, but man do I think back on that car fondly. It is hands down the last good modern car - and if you get really lucky, you can find them in RWD!
The 4Runner and Lexus GX are also built on the LC platform and share tons of parts. If a 70 series fits your needs then either of those would be workable as well. Absolutely none of them would meet your stated fuel economy requirements however. :)
I think you're looking for a 20-year-old car. The last car I had that met all these criteria was a 1999 Mazda. But you will have a hard time finding a car that was marketed in America 20 years ago, that realistically gets > 30 MPG.
Although this represents a legitimate use, that it can be done at all implies that illegitimate uses are also possible. I'm quite content with just a regular key and insurance to protect my vehicle.
Edit: I've a well-serviced 2004 XC70 for sale.
Are there kinds of vehicles that are completely off limits for you, eg because of difficulties parking, the environment you live it, etc?
Does it have to be new? If not, how many years back are you prepared to go?
If you are in North America, AWD/4wd puts you in a special zone: some light trucks and SUVs, a vanishingly small number of wagons, and Subaru.
If it has to be new, layering on your reqts 1-4 pushes you away from anything premium and towards lower end models. And (sadly) it also pushes you away from the very newest models. For example, if a truck is acceptable, a 2022 Ford Ranger instead of a F-150.
Doesn't need to be new, but I'd prefer not to go back more than ten years if it can be helped.
It was given high predicted reliability ratings by Consumers Reports back when we were shopping for it. And ours has been reliable. However, regular maintenance can be costly. I think it shares a lot with similar vintage VW GTIs, so you might be able to find a VM-oriented independent mechanic who could take care of it.
It's a 2 liter turbo 4 cylinder. It has the haldex clutch style AWD and ours can get around 30 MPG on highway trips. I might see 24 MPG around town if smoothly cruising, but it easily dives to 18 MPG or worse with too many red lights or stop and go traffic. This is pretty typical of all the small Audi turbos unless you get to the much more recent mild-hybrid setups.
This first Q3 generation started ~2011 in Europe, so the cabin tech is quite dated and minimal. Our basic "premium" trim level has no connectivity other than bluetooth to phone for calls or music. It has a rather small screen for the reversing camera and music/phone/settings.
Edit: also to be clear, when I owned mine I disabled all phone home bullshit and the car had no issues.
i.e, all to say: I never once needed to worry about replacing those parts, nor did I ever during my multiple years of ownership. I would be shocked if they're an issue on that particular model.