Ask HN: Any advice on navigating this job market or pivoting out of tech? (US)
- Based on what I've read here, in news articles, in company portals, on TeamBlind and on Reddit, outsourcing seems popular again. Seniors who comment online are quick to scoff at this, claiming that companies doing this are shooting themselves in the foot, and that they'll regret it just like last time. But here's the thing - even if the seniors are right, I need a job when I graduate. I'll need to pay my student loans. I need to pay the rent. I can't just wait a few years for things to hopefully get better.
- AI appears to be a real threat specifically for juniors. This idea used to be met with ridicule, but it seems obvious now. GPT-4 and Gemini Pro are already impressive, but just imagine the improvements in a year or two. Sure, this doesn't necessarily mean it'll kill programming, it's possible that this is just the next step after high level programming languages, but it still represents a threat to entry level developers like me.
- Perhaps this is less important now (I'd take any job at this point), but I've gradually lost interest in the only domain I have any real-world experience in, full-stack web development. I have been strongly considering switching to game development, despite the industry's reputation, but now I don't know if I can handle an even more cutthroat, competitive job market.
- Freelance work is an option I guess, but for someone like me it seems impossible. I only have a year of dev experience (including internship). I don't have a network. My sales skills are terrible.
- I am absolutely sick of the job search grind. I went through it in 2021-22 when things were "better", I don't want to deal with it again now that even experienced devs are struggling.
What are my alternatives? What other career can I pivot to once I get my CS degree? So far, I've thought about translating (I'm bilingual)
P.S. Please don't tell me to stop worrying and "doomscrolling". I already tried that a while ago and it didn't help, the uncertainty is still there, my interest in webdev is still dead and the job market is still bad.
115 comments
[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 183 ms ] threadIn any case, pick your struggle. Decide whether you want to be well-off and bored, or something else.
You're likely in a lot of student debt after uni, and even though job market is harder, there are still jobs available. If you switch fields, you would likely be competing against much better prepared candidates with more experience.
My advice would be to get a job in SWE and decide once you're in a better position than jobless with no experience.
I've also been broke and financially insecure and it will better once you can pay your bills even if it's not your fave. Go for whatever your experience is for the first job.
If you have or can get a security clearance, you've just removed a bunch of competition.
Uncertainty is natural. The Web Dev boom is a random artificial boom. Most other STEM jobs pay in the 60-90K range depending how good your grades are.
So yeah, you probably wont get a FANNG job, but you can easily get a job that will keep you alive.
Hate to say it, most of the software devs I know are pretty dammed high on their horses and it’s a bit obnoxious.
Do many jobs list "humility" as a qualification they are looking for?
[Edit]
As a primary qualification, and not a company value or whatever.
I don't want "humble" coworkers, I want confident coworkers, who also happen to be reasonable and cooperative. I especially want them to be able to confidently state their opinions, without fear that they'll be targeted for "not being humble", even if they're willing to change those opinions based on a discussion with the team.
1) if your interest in web dev is dead, then what do you have interest in?
2) what are your standards for a job?
3) if someone told you that “ok this college degree was a waste” how would you respond?
There’s no magic bullet, but knowing the answer to these can help you feel empowered to navigate the job search process
It is a waste. I graduated 5 years ago. Joined Master hoping something good would happen. Learnt a few things here and there. Now I am in objectively bad position where I ruined my family relationship, ruined health and ruined most of the things.
Life just sucks and everything is gray.
As you mentioned, outsourcing is popular again. If you speak a language that's popular in outsourced countries then you bring an interesting skillset with you in that you can help bridge communication gaps between North America and overseas. Maybe you can find something in that space where you combo programming and product owner with multi-lingual capabilities.
GPT4 isn't doing the architecting, planning, understanding priorities, what should be built first and how, according to company needs and your own or your teams abilities.
If you understand what you're doing and are willing to work hard, you've got a valuable skillset- likely more than you realize.
The baseline for that industry is... bad and the latest round(s) of layoffs in that industry has made it worse.
Also remember that the people here self-selected, so try not to take anything personally.
[Edit]
"In my experience," "You must be doomscrolling" thinking they know you better than you do, straight up insults; all the classics.
Also you sounds like you are a bit burned out. Translating sounds even much more AI-replacable than CS -- don't do that if you fear CS.
(Also Blind is toxic albeit informational! Call up some people. Ask me; or ask HN or some less negative places for how the industry is looking.)
Never accept a PhD position that you need to pay for (beyond opportunity costs). A PhD position should pay you.
Another person who earned a Master's found it easier to get a work visa working in a foreign country with a better market for that person's field.
However, each of these people had a specific goal in mind with getting their Master's. The person who asked advice could also find it helpful to only consider a Master's if they also have a specific outcome in mind, served directly by pursuing the degree.
Sorry, I accidentally removed the last part of that sentence. It was supposed to say this:
Thanks for the reply.That said, translation is also like programming in that it seems to be the junior translators who are most impacted. Newbie translators’ job is often just to take any text they are given and render it into another language, with little or no control about the choice of text or its content and with little or no interaction with the client. AI can do that pretty well now, and much more quickly and cheaply than any human.
The human translators who are surviving are those who spend less time translating words on a screen than they do learning their clients’ needs, helping their clients navigate the subtleties of interlingual and intercultural communication, and advising their clients on how to adapt their content to meet the needs of their target readership. I don’t know if there are many entry-level jobs available now with such responsibilities, but that’s what I would be looking for, not for what has traditionally been called “translation.”
My thoughts on this topic from a year ago can be found on my website, linked from my profile.
If you feel hopeless, we (at least me, and HN in general) are here to help besides other resources.
But I butchered myself (meaning no substantial skills on paper) so I am unhireable. People don't even look at my resume. Deactivated LinkedIn because it was causing harm than good.
That's it!
You work for that recruiting agency, they find you interviews, you pass and get a job, you work, client pays them money, they take their cut, the rest goes to you.
Write me an email to this address
temp.dl9bv@simplelogin.com
and I will send you the name of the company that got me into the field.
I recently got a call from a recruiter from that company saying there were a lot of layoffs and they are looking for past employees to fill in positions. So there is work, you just have to know where to look.
Companies don’t hire directly. Companies hire through recruiting agencies, and often there can be more than 1 recruiting agency in between. For 2 jobs that I worked there were 2 recruiting agencies between me and the final client.
Election years are always terrible for the job market.
Why not pivot into AI development. The market is hot for this. Get any entry level job in it.
You are not supposed to make bank, this early in your career. It is all about working for companies that will give you the most skills. The foundation to build on.
Well, no offense, but you aren’t in the industry yet. And if you really are sick of it, maybe you should invest in your long term happiness and do literally anything else for a career. Money isn’t worth being miserable.
Couple years after bubble and 9/11 landed first job.
Then MS started touting outsourcing to india as the next big thing. Tech was dead everyone said.
Then 2008 great recession. Tech was dead everyone said.
Now AI. Tech is dead everyone says.
From my first job in early 2000's to today I was unemployed for exactly 2 weeks.
Just sayin.
Any job search in any career is going to be a grind. In some twisted way you could even think that tech is better, at least you don't need to dress to impress and tech interviews can be a little more objective.
Re webdev: Your coming out of school, your junior and a blank slate. You don't really have a specialty, you can work towards whatever comes your way.
Honestly, get off the internet,(whats your screen time?), get some hobbies, drop the idea that you really know how the industry is.
The job search sucks, you'll feel a lot better when you get your first check.
Are you just nervous because of the news you are reading
OR
Have you gone through your college career and you realized you do not like CS?You need to answer this question first. Then you have the answer... if you love CS, the the job will come. Forget what you are reading and pretend this job hunt is another algorithms or operating systems class that you need to bust your ass at and pass.
If on the the other hand the flame is dead, you are getting separated and moving on to another field, well then, there is your other answer. Pretend that is another kind of problem that you have to solve and go solve it. You just went through years of problem solving school, go do it.
-- Full disclosure: not trying to be mean, just trying to boil it down to simplest "if A then B" parts.
The Venn diagram of “web development” and “computer science” is two separate circles.
[Edit]
I apologize for my swipe.
I feel like that fact they both use computer programming negates that argument.
Just HTML and CSS and nothing else.
Feel free to enlighten us as to what comp sci and Web dev are, and why they share nothing in common. Please.
Programming is a means of operating computer systems. Sometimes you have to operate computers to do computer science, but not always (for example algorithm design is very mathematical.)
there is meaningful overlap, certainly
and also, not all programming is science, certainly
I have always found game development more appealing (tools programming, game design and gameplay programming in particular), but chose to not go for that path, fearing that I wouldn't be able to handle such a notoriously cutthroat industry. I know that it sounds like I threw in the towel there without even trying, but for a long time I had a terrible, painful chronic condition, and it was only recently that I became closer to normal after years of trial and error with different treatments. This condition made me always strive for the "easier" path (webdev), which was a big mistake in retrospect.
To be completely honest, CS is definitely not my biggest passion, but it's the next best thing. From early on in my childhood dream was music and storytelling, always. My dad was strongly opposed to me pursuing it as anything other than a hobby. I think he was right, and I'm still glad he stopped me from enrolling in music school (twice...).
Sorry, I'm just kind of rambling about personal stuff here, but your comment made me think a lot. Thanks for the reply.
I know it might sound ridiculous for someone graduating with a CS degree but it could work to your benefit -- especially if you're feeling burnt out and unsure about your field/focus. A friend of mine drives a garbage truck in a small town and works 3-4 hours per day: as long as it takes to do the route and empty the truck. He's got great health insurance, a 401K and a union. While I make more running a software consultancy, I have none of these benefits and am way more exposed to market fluctuation (like right now). You could spend your afternoons doing research, working on FLOSS, doing freelance dev gigs, etc.
Do you like building software? Based on your post I get a feeling (which may be wrong) you’re looking for the $$.
If you like it, stay with it and keep studying. It will pay off.
(Edit: my experience) I left college and started out writing COBOL. Several dot com busts later and I was lucky enough to lead several SaaS teams and have wonderful exits.
I'm not as pessimistic as OP, but I do have to wonder if I squandered my few years of ZIRP and if there will ever be another such period.