Curious if someone more familiar with this space could comment on what exactly is meant when it says the drug in question -- MM120 -- has been "pharmacologically optimized" from the base LSD?
I know the "real" vs "synthetic" distinction is kind of silly w.r.t. psychedelics in general (especially so with LSD since it's only ever been synthetic), but understanding exactly how the new crop of drugs actually differ from the usual suspects would be helpful in evaluating to what degree this is 'just' a business move to offer something proprietary and corner the market vs. it's legitimately better for patients.
That said, I believe the biggest drawback with using LSD in a clinical or therapeutic setting is the length of the experience (12+ hours), so a tweak around shorter duration would make more sense to me.
it's more accurate to characterize LSD as semi-synthetic, just like thebaine derivatives such as hydrocodone, hydromorphone, and oxycodone. it's a simple one or two step transformation from ergot-derived alkaloids.
it seems like MM120 is literally just the "optimal dose" of the tartate salt (the normal salt LSD is co-crystallized with) of LSD in a pill. it doesn't seem like there's any special delivery device, nor is it any sort of prodrug nor is it a deuterated analogue.
MM120 is chemically identical to LSD. The "optimization" they claim is just a regulatory workaround aimed at maintaining patent protection for longer.
As far as shorter trips, Compass Pathways is testing psilocybin for depression. Another company, Field Trip Health, was developing an analog of psilocybin with a shorter trip duration, but it doesn't seem to be progressing past Phase 1 trials.
I heard once that somebody went into psychosis and ended up committing double murder without first taking LSD. Maybe bad things happen sometimes and it doesn't necessarily mean that whatever you are personally afraid of caused it?
If someone chugs a bottle of vodka and loses it, you don’t turn around and presume that a bottle of beer will lead to the same result.
You might find Pollan’s “How to Change Your Mind” a good read to get some background of fear uncertainty and death/dread around some drugs and how it’s tainted a lot of perception over the years.
Every form of medication has associated risk and there are horrific anecdotes for everything. The key is to get more probable benefit than probable detriment. If the risk for a particular medication is unusually high then the problem it's likely to help with has to be commensurately severe.
psilocybin (or more accurately the active drug it is converted to, psilocin) and LSD are extremely similar as classical psychedelics. psychosis is possible with any sort of psychoactive drug and individuals with a family history of bipolar disease or schizophrenia should avoid consuming any psychoactive substances. with that said, psychosis is extremely uncommon with LSD in healthy individuals at reasonable doses, and LSD use actually has a slight negative correlation with later development of schizophrenia.
i'm not sure about that particular case, but consuming LSD while on lithium (commonly prescribed for bipolar disorder) essentially guarantees an acute episode of psychosis and possibly seizures so I wonder if that particular individual was on lithium at the time.
A tab is just a square of blotting paper. It can be any amount, but is most often 1-2 doses.
LSD can cause persistent hallucinations, though these tend to be minor, like halos around lights. It can also leave a lasting impression on your mind. This is usually a positive, and is one of the reasons it's interesting for anxiety and PTSD.
Physiologically, it's remarkably safe. People have taken 1000s of times the standard dose and been fine. It's worth being a little alarmist though, as a "bad trip" can occur at any dosage, and can have extremely unpredictable effects. It's usually upsetting but manageable, but the horror stories are real too. Powerful stuff. Do not combine it with alcohol.
Anecdotally, my worst experience (out of about 5 times) was throwing up on myself then sitting in a river for 3 hours trying to feel clean. My friend punched a hole in his wall and took a shit in it.
A tab is roughly a standard dosage. One problem is that LSD is such an extremely potent chemical (the effective dose is measured in micrograms) that it is difficult to be confident in your dosage when it hasn't been produced in a rigorously controlled pharma environment. So even one tab might be actually several times stronger than you're expecting.
I've seen bad trips, I've even seen one case of psychosis. My personal opinion is that the positives still outweigh the negatives. The negatives are also easily mitigated by providing a safe and positive setting (and would be even more so with standardized production); clinical administration would be quite safe. Benzodiazepines are effective in stopping the anxiety spiral of bad trips.
The "face-eating bath salt man of Florida" was a schizophrenic that had smoked too much cannabis, triggering a manic episode.
He never even ingested alpha-PVP, the "bath salt" / amphetamine synthetic in question.
>You hear stories with psilocybin mushrooms too but I remember reading that LSD was a different beast that it can actually cause lasting symptoms whereas you don't hear that with psilocybin (but not without cases involving psychosis).
LSD is, among the most experienced of psychonauts, associated with a slightly relatively increased risk of HPPD, especially compared to mushrooms.
The dosage, setting, and personal predisposition to manic and schizophrenic episodes is a magnitude more affecting of a factor.
Antedate urban legends such as the above, and "orange juice man", just further dilute the truth, and increase the actual risk to people harming themselves.
It’s important to not write these cases off because it’s a good reason to decriminalize and study illicit drugs in a therapeutic setting so we can learn more about how they impact various groups of people. SSRIs also lead to suicide and can cause psychosis, so can stimulants like adderall. In almost all cases there is an underlying mental illness a medication tends to make worse. The reason it’s uncommon with these medications is because the patient is under the supervision of a doctor. I don’t need to go into how many homicides have resulted due to alchoal
LSD is one of the generally safer and more well tolerated psychedelics. As far as I know it’s not legal, and there is no way for anyone to know if that person took LSD. Other drugs like NBoMe are active in the microgram range and do cause behavior like this can had lead to death.
Look up the Darknet Avengers, this was a group of people that started by drugs of the darknet,texting them, and posting the results to let people know if dealers were selling a dangerous substance in the guise of LSD.
The vast majority of people do NOT test their drugs. Again, a good reason to decriminalize.
Real LSD when done responsibly can be one of the most healing and therapeutic experiences any one can have.
MindMed’s MM120 is set to compete with such drugs as Spravato, a type of ketamine that, for now, is the only FDA-approved nasal spray for treatment-resistant depression. When Spravato came to market in 2019, its manufacturer Johnson & Johnson charged $4,720 to $6,785 per dose.
I feel a moral obligation to inform anyone reading that:
The first and the best, synthetic dissociative discovered to be an analog of Ketamine, called "Methoxetamine" / MXE, has since been made illegal (shame, it is a euphoric, warm, bladder-safe, highly coveted and respected chemical, RIP); there has been 3-4 generational iterations in the immediate field that yield similar affects - especially the lingering narco-metabolites that leaves the user with the "warm afterglow" after a single dose, which is the mechanism of action for it's remarkable, immediate, and 2-week lasting of it's depression-treating behavior.
Their legality (grey) is dubious but so is the Federal Analog Act.
They are also extremely cheap and relatively easy to find, often on the clearnet/"research chem" communities and purchasable with a credit/debit card.
Their safety profile is well understood - the only common issue is the short "manic" phase some report, but that is nearly exclusive to classic PCP.
>>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of property[happiness].
I've not heard of people doing that - is there a reason for your concern?
My understanding is that the brain undergoes important development until around 25 years old, so it's best to push drug use to after. If someone insists on doing something earlier, before 16 years old is probably a terrible idea.
I mean to say young people anxiety is very different from old people anxiety. LSD is probably good for people my age but not a panacea for anxiety. Young people require people my age to be acting like we know something.
* "I've heard" is a nonstarter, I have heard lots of things, like that there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, Santa Claus, etc. Do you take all your information about lurking dangers by hear-say? Anyone can have a psychosis, just stay awake for 72+ hours, hey presto.
This chilling of public discourse has lead us to routinely do absolutely dumb stuff: Since WHEN did we IGNORE dangers instead of studying to understand, not ignore and think we just can avoid them cluelessly? This suicidal concept of ignoring a danger + "just say no" crap is insane, in fact, suicidal! If we identify a potential threat we should study it and make it easy to research and insights free of political stupidity should be easily available. Oh right, we kind of do... It just takes _a lot_ of reading:
LSD-25 refers for the base form of the compound of Lyseric Acid Diethylamid, the number 25 refers to the extraction # Dr Hofmann performed from his experiments on a fungi found on several crops that provide the key ingredient to bread. LSD is a psychotropic substance, not a narcotic. It had promising use in psychiatry treating many illnesses, such as alcoholism, it does not however form "Manchurian Candidates", quite the opposite. Most people become kinder. more considerate and if you give it to soldiers, they toss their guns to play in the grass and trees. There is a british army video showing exatly this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=776lDlNopJU
LSD can come in several forms. LSD is also known as Lysergide d-tartrate, MM120 patent merely patents a fast delivery vehicle in consert with therapy. They use Lysergide d-tartrate, a form not new since last millenium. LSD itself as well as commonly known solid forms, such as tartrate cannot be patented. As any child, the ones we are fond of has many names:
The patent itself is not on LSD (lysergice d-tartrate). It has existed for a long time. again:It is on the delivery mechanism, a melting tablet, and the therapy treatment that follows.
LSD-25 refers to a liquid base form as it was extracted in Dr.Hofmanns 25th extraction. It is then in liquid state. Most substances are really refered to in base form without a qualifier, this is often completely wrongly used. I will use a more familiar illicit substance to demonstrate:
* Cocaine means cocaine base (an oil), often called freebase as it is derived by freeing the base from the hydrochloride salt thus returning it to the original cocaine oil form, or "freeing the base". Not water soluable.
* Cocaine hydrochlorde is the nose candy. Once bound to the salt of hydrochloric acid itforms Cocaine Hydrochloride , which water soluble and sniffable.
* Crack is simply freebase made by freeing cocaine base from hydrochloride salt in a boiling water solution using electrons from baking soda. Crack refers to thesound the rock makes as it is heated because it is an oil and has tiny droplets of water inside of that "crackles".. Throw oil in a hot pan and drop some water droplets on (careful). Crush and dry the rock, no more crackle sound and crack -> just calcified base cocaine (freebase). It is made by putting 20ml of water in a small glass in a water bath and letting it reach boiling temperature. ...
28 comments
[ 4.0 ms ] story [ 60.0 ms ] threadI know the "real" vs "synthetic" distinction is kind of silly w.r.t. psychedelics in general (especially so with LSD since it's only ever been synthetic), but understanding exactly how the new crop of drugs actually differ from the usual suspects would be helpful in evaluating to what degree this is 'just' a business move to offer something proprietary and corner the market vs. it's legitimately better for patients.
That said, I believe the biggest drawback with using LSD in a clinical or therapeutic setting is the length of the experience (12+ hours), so a tweak around shorter duration would make more sense to me.
it seems like MM120 is literally just the "optimal dose" of the tartate salt (the normal salt LSD is co-crystallized with) of LSD in a pill. it doesn't seem like there's any special delivery device, nor is it any sort of prodrug nor is it a deuterated analogue.
As far as shorter trips, Compass Pathways is testing psilocybin for depression. Another company, Field Trip Health, was developing an analog of psilocybin with a shorter trip duration, but it doesn't seem to be progressing past Phase 1 trials.
The only reason this exists is because all the other easily modifications and analogs have already been tainted legally.
"Orange sunshine"/ AL-LAD / 1pLSD / LSZ, they are all the same bicycle ride once it hits your tongue.
This is just a patent/legal facilitation.
An exiting one, none the less. :)
I'm not finding any news reports about such a case, the only one that sounds relevant in the same timeframe is this: https://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20230302000713
Can you provide a link or something more specific than 'I saw it on Reddit'?
Or even junk food https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscone%E2%80%93Milk_assassina...
Let’s wait for the science, shall we?
You might find Pollan’s “How to Change Your Mind” a good read to get some background of fear uncertainty and death/dread around some drugs and how it’s tainted a lot of perception over the years.
Every form of medication has associated risk and there are horrific anecdotes for everything. The key is to get more probable benefit than probable detriment. If the risk for a particular medication is unusually high then the problem it's likely to help with has to be commensurately severe.
i'm not sure about that particular case, but consuming LSD while on lithium (commonly prescribed for bipolar disorder) essentially guarantees an acute episode of psychosis and possibly seizures so I wonder if that particular individual was on lithium at the time.
LSD can cause persistent hallucinations, though these tend to be minor, like halos around lights. It can also leave a lasting impression on your mind. This is usually a positive, and is one of the reasons it's interesting for anxiety and PTSD.
Physiologically, it's remarkably safe. People have taken 1000s of times the standard dose and been fine. It's worth being a little alarmist though, as a "bad trip" can occur at any dosage, and can have extremely unpredictable effects. It's usually upsetting but manageable, but the horror stories are real too. Powerful stuff. Do not combine it with alcohol.
Anecdotally, my worst experience (out of about 5 times) was throwing up on myself then sitting in a river for 3 hours trying to feel clean. My friend punched a hole in his wall and took a shit in it.
I've seen bad trips, I've even seen one case of psychosis. My personal opinion is that the positives still outweigh the negatives. The negatives are also easily mitigated by providing a safe and positive setting (and would be even more so with standardized production); clinical administration would be quite safe. Benzodiazepines are effective in stopping the anxiety spiral of bad trips.
He never even ingested alpha-PVP, the "bath salt" / amphetamine synthetic in question.
>You hear stories with psilocybin mushrooms too but I remember reading that LSD was a different beast that it can actually cause lasting symptoms whereas you don't hear that with psilocybin (but not without cases involving psychosis).
LSD is, among the most experienced of psychonauts, associated with a slightly relatively increased risk of HPPD, especially compared to mushrooms.
The dosage, setting, and personal predisposition to manic and schizophrenic episodes is a magnitude more affecting of a factor.
Antedate urban legends such as the above, and "orange juice man", just further dilute the truth, and increase the actual risk to people harming themselves.
LSD is one of the generally safer and more well tolerated psychedelics. As far as I know it’s not legal, and there is no way for anyone to know if that person took LSD. Other drugs like NBoMe are active in the microgram range and do cause behavior like this can had lead to death.
Look up the Darknet Avengers, this was a group of people that started by drugs of the darknet,texting them, and posting the results to let people know if dealers were selling a dangerous substance in the guise of LSD.
The vast majority of people do NOT test their drugs. Again, a good reason to decriminalize.
Real LSD when done responsibly can be one of the most healing and therapeutic experiences any one can have.
These prices are ridiculous.
AFAIK a "hit" of LSD is like <$10
IDK what the street price of a ketamine dose is but I would be surprised if it was more than $20.
Then again you can't bill those to an insurance company...
The first and the best, synthetic dissociative discovered to be an analog of Ketamine, called "Methoxetamine" / MXE, has since been made illegal (shame, it is a euphoric, warm, bladder-safe, highly coveted and respected chemical, RIP); there has been 3-4 generational iterations in the immediate field that yield similar affects - especially the lingering narco-metabolites that leaves the user with the "warm afterglow" after a single dose, which is the mechanism of action for it's remarkable, immediate, and 2-week lasting of it's depression-treating behavior.
Their legality (grey) is dubious but so is the Federal Analog Act.
They are also extremely cheap and relatively easy to find, often on the clearnet/"research chem" communities and purchasable with a credit/debit card.
Their safety profile is well understood - the only common issue is the short "manic" phase some report, but that is nearly exclusive to classic PCP.
>>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of property[happiness].
Please don’t give LSD to children.
My understanding is that the brain undergoes important development until around 25 years old, so it's best to push drug use to after. If someone insists on doing something earlier, before 16 years old is probably a terrible idea.
* "I've heard" is a nonstarter, I have heard lots of things, like that there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, Santa Claus, etc. Do you take all your information about lurking dangers by hear-say? Anyone can have a psychosis, just stay awake for 72+ hours, hey presto.
This chilling of public discourse has lead us to routinely do absolutely dumb stuff: Since WHEN did we IGNORE dangers instead of studying to understand, not ignore and think we just can avoid them cluelessly? This suicidal concept of ignoring a danger + "just say no" crap is insane, in fact, suicidal! If we identify a potential threat we should study it and make it easy to research and insights free of political stupidity should be easily available. Oh right, we kind of do... It just takes _a lot_ of reading:
* https://nlm.nih.gov
* https://maps.org - I recommend LSD: My problem Child. By one Dr. Albert Hofmann. It is available as a free download on PDF, legally.
* https://unodc.org
* Critical thinking, LEARN IT.
Read and understand the subject matter.*
LSD-25 refers for the base form of the compound of Lyseric Acid Diethylamid, the number 25 refers to the extraction # Dr Hofmann performed from his experiments on a fungi found on several crops that provide the key ingredient to bread. LSD is a psychotropic substance, not a narcotic. It had promising use in psychiatry treating many illnesses, such as alcoholism, it does not however form "Manchurian Candidates", quite the opposite. Most people become kinder. more considerate and if you give it to soldiers, they toss their guns to play in the grass and trees. There is a british army video showing exatly this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=776lDlNopJU
LSD can come in several forms. LSD is also known as Lysergide d-tartrate, MM120 patent merely patents a fast delivery vehicle in consert with therapy. They use Lysergide d-tartrate, a form not new since last millenium. LSD itself as well as commonly known solid forms, such as tartrate cannot be patented. As any child, the ones we are fond of has many names:
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Lysergide-tartrate...
The patent itself is not on LSD (lysergice d-tartrate). It has existed for a long time. again:It is on the delivery mechanism, a melting tablet, and the therapy treatment that follows.
LSD-25 refers to a liquid base form as it was extracted in Dr.Hofmanns 25th extraction. It is then in liquid state. Most substances are really refered to in base form without a qualifier, this is often completely wrongly used. I will use a more familiar illicit substance to demonstrate:
* Cocaine means cocaine base (an oil), often called freebase as it is derived by freeing the base from the hydrochloride salt thus returning it to the original cocaine oil form, or "freeing the base". Not water soluable.
* Cocaine hydrochlorde is the nose candy. Once bound to the salt of hydrochloric acid itforms Cocaine Hydrochloride , which water soluble and sniffable.
* Crack is simply freebase made by freeing cocaine base from hydrochloride salt in a boiling water solution using electrons from baking soda. Crack refers to thesound the rock makes as it is heated because it is an oil and has tiny droplets of water inside of that "crackles".. Throw oil in a hot pan and drop some water droplets on (careful). Crush and dry the rock, no more crackle sound and crack -> just calcified base cocaine (freebase). It is made by putting 20ml of water in a small glass in a water bath and letting it reach boiling temperature. ...