I want the government to have a case, here. I want the DOJ to be able to push back against what companies like Apple are doing.
However, in court, you have to compare what a company is doing to the letter of the law. It seems US anti-trust laws are vague enough that, if the way big tech companies operate today violates them, the enforcement over the years has been so little that it is hard to apply them now in the spirit they were intended. That’s my impression, anyway.
Apple will, of course, argue they are not a monopoly (all their products have competitors, like iOS has Android—even if they tried to kill it). They will argue that having an ecosystem of products in different categories that work together is not illegal, and that executives wanting to entice users to use their products, or deter them from switching, is all the same thing and just good business, not anti-competitive behavior.
If it’s already illegal for Apple to prefer and promote their own apps and products and extract exorbitant rent from everyone else, then please, DOJ, put a stop to it.
Maybe it’s just all the articles about this that are really poor. As it stands, not having dug into the matter deeply, I’m on the DOJ’s side, but I’d rather be a lawyer for Apple.
"you have to compare what a company is doing to the letter of the law"
No, it is literally the court's job to interpret the law. They are the ones who take the letter of the law and figure out what that actually means, and if history has shown us anything, they have tremendous latitude in that regard.
What I meant was, the case will be decided by applying the law to the situation, so in order to discuss from the sidelines what could, should, or might happen, we need to look at what it says and how it might be interpreted.
> and that executives wanting to entice users to use their products, or deter them from switching, is all the same thing and just good business, not anti-competitive behavior.
But lots of good business becomes anti-competitive behavior once you’re judged to be the subject to antitrust law.
So, the main issue is whether antitrust law should apply to them. That, IMO, is a case won as less on the letter of the law (which, as I understand it, is fairly vague) than on what ‘the people’ want it to mean today.
I don't understand how people are so mixed on this. The prospect of leaving iOS to go to Android is simply a no-go for me because I would lose access to a bunch of family and friend group chats (besides other lock-in)
It's ridiculous that apple can leverage my social connections as a tool to keep me on iOS.
What am I supposed to do?
"Dear friends and family, I need you all to download this app called Signal so we can restart all our group chats in a new app because I am getting an android phone."
Kind of, yes. The other 96% of the world population has pretty much managed just that. No where else depends on iMessage and the idea of depending on such a single-platform app to keep in touch with people is baffling.
The rest of the world has the analog problem of some people boycotting fb messenger or WhatsApp and trying to get their social circle to move tob signal or telegram
I don’t understand the complaint here. I am in several group chats that have a mix of iPhone, Android, and other messaging clients. I have not lost access to anything.
I don’t understand either. I have an iPhone. My wife has a Samsung. According to certain pockets of the internet it’s a miracle we made it past our first date and now it’s only a matter of time before we’re divorced.
Our group chat with her family is evenly split between iOS and Android. No one’s ever said one word about it.
We absolutely have run into the issue where I can’t send my wife multiple photos at the same time over text (a single photo works fine)…so I just use one of several other methods to send photos in bulk.
To me, this topic is the ultimate “touch grass” example.
Currently, sending pictures from an iPhone only group to a group that includes an android reduces picture quality significantly.
Sending video is atrociously bad potato quality. How to send to android? Easiest is email and then the many other options. According to Steve Jobs “get your mom an iPhone”.
I swear at one time I could not edit a group chat if an android was in the group chat but that must have recently changed.
Maybe they think they lose the group chat transferring to android or the chat history.
Windows phone link is bad with an iPhone also. Can’t even text an android phone. For me, Android->Iphone->Macos->Windows and now I’m considering looping back to Android.
In many countries, iMessage isn't that popular and other messengers thrive. Why do you think ios forced all these other messenger apps to integrate with the OS call records - so that it can still collect the metadata on who you talk to through VoIP (So even if you use other messengers on ios to protect your data from Apple, you can't).
They were resistant. It took a long time. But there are ample new opportunities appearing on a daily basis to show them why a cross platform privacy-focused messenger is a better idea than being trapped in a walled garden.
But eventually they understood. And because they care about me, they use Signal to communicate with me. For some of them I'm their only Signal contact. With others, they now have other friends from other circles who have similar concerns.
The more other people they hear mention Signal, the more likely they are to use it. Be the change you want to see.
This sounds like a lot of work. Which kinda confirms the OP's point - it's possible to switch, but most people don't want to die on this hill and choose an easier path (and I can't blame them).
Caring about things takes work. You don't have to die on this hill, you can still come down to exchange baby pictures with the family at the casino every now and again. But while you're there, you might mention there are other cool places to hang out that are just around the corner and aren't predatory.
People talk about downloading an app as if it's this great endeavor like lifting a huge boulder. The app will live on their phone and send them notifications. It's not that big of a deal. They'll forget to use it most of the time at first. It's not that big of a deal.
Oddly enough I like the lock in… and it’s not apples fault, blackberry did it first with PIN messages and then BBM. Heck their slogan for the priv phone was privacy and exclusivity
You can still SMS anyone. But it’s much better on iPhone. They should not open iMessage to Android it’ll just turn into a big spammy dumpster fire.
The big killer app for BBM, iMessage, and WhatsApp was the ability to send text messages for cheap/free relative to expensive and limited carrier SMS, especially on prepaid SIMs, and later to make full phone calls over WiFi. Skype was never this integrated to people’s contact lists and missed the boat with smartphones.
The issue is that iMessage is already a big spammy dumpster fire—in my experience. I get plenty of spam messages sent by email addresses essentially made up of random strings of characters
22 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 63.5 ms ] threadHowever, in court, you have to compare what a company is doing to the letter of the law. It seems US anti-trust laws are vague enough that, if the way big tech companies operate today violates them, the enforcement over the years has been so little that it is hard to apply them now in the spirit they were intended. That’s my impression, anyway.
Apple will, of course, argue they are not a monopoly (all their products have competitors, like iOS has Android—even if they tried to kill it). They will argue that having an ecosystem of products in different categories that work together is not illegal, and that executives wanting to entice users to use their products, or deter them from switching, is all the same thing and just good business, not anti-competitive behavior.
If it’s already illegal for Apple to prefer and promote their own apps and products and extract exorbitant rent from everyone else, then please, DOJ, put a stop to it.
Maybe it’s just all the articles about this that are really poor. As it stands, not having dug into the matter deeply, I’m on the DOJ’s side, but I’d rather be a lawyer for Apple.
No, it is literally the court's job to interpret the law. They are the ones who take the letter of the law and figure out what that actually means, and if history has shown us anything, they have tremendous latitude in that regard.
But lots of good business becomes anti-competitive behavior once you’re judged to be the subject to antitrust law.
So, the main issue is whether antitrust law should apply to them. That, IMO, is a case won as less on the letter of the law (which, as I understand it, is fairly vague) than on what ‘the people’ want it to mean today.
It's ridiculous that apple can leverage my social connections as a tool to keep me on iOS.
What am I supposed to do?
"Dear friends and family, I need you all to download this app called Signal so we can restart all our group chats in a new app because I am getting an android phone."
Our group chat with her family is evenly split between iOS and Android. No one’s ever said one word about it.
We absolutely have run into the issue where I can’t send my wife multiple photos at the same time over text (a single photo works fine)…so I just use one of several other methods to send photos in bulk.
To me, this topic is the ultimate “touch grass” example.
Sending video is atrociously bad potato quality. How to send to android? Easiest is email and then the many other options. According to Steve Jobs “get your mom an iPhone”.
I swear at one time I could not edit a group chat if an android was in the group chat but that must have recently changed.
Maybe they think they lose the group chat transferring to android or the chat history. Windows phone link is bad with an iPhone also. Can’t even text an android phone. For me, Android->Iphone->Macos->Windows and now I’m considering looping back to Android.
They were resistant. It took a long time. But there are ample new opportunities appearing on a daily basis to show them why a cross platform privacy-focused messenger is a better idea than being trapped in a walled garden.
But eventually they understood. And because they care about me, they use Signal to communicate with me. For some of them I'm their only Signal contact. With others, they now have other friends from other circles who have similar concerns.
The more other people they hear mention Signal, the more likely they are to use it. Be the change you want to see.
People talk about downloading an app as if it's this great endeavor like lifting a huge boulder. The app will live on their phone and send them notifications. It's not that big of a deal. They'll forget to use it most of the time at first. It's not that big of a deal.
You can still SMS anyone. But it’s much better on iPhone. They should not open iMessage to Android it’ll just turn into a big spammy dumpster fire.