>young people need lessons on expectations in relationships.
Yes, but we also need better lessons on who/what to be. What are our responsibilities to our partner? As a 30y.o. male, I largely got a message about being myself and that women wanted sensitive men in touch with emotions. After a decade and a half of trial-and-error, and observing those around me, women absolutely respond to physical fitness, social status, career success and stoicism. Obviously everyone has different desires, but those four are really strong themes that you ignore only if you plan to limit your choices to a minority of the female population.
I wish someone had sat me down and really got it across like "Your role as a man is to be strong and dependable. Find a different outlet for your emotions than verbally expressing them. Pursue your interests to be a whole person, but remember that you will be valued as a man based on your ability to protect and provide. Ignore any advice or claims contrary to this, even if it comes directly from women."
True. It's easy enough to be distracted by the confusing message that TVs and Movies provide us about what women want in a man - the thing to remember is that most of these is targeted at fantasies of teens and young adults whose ideas on relationships are often immature. Date a mature adult woman, and you'll find that they mostly evaluate you for a serious, long-term relationship based on your health (physical and psychological), earnings and social status as @boppo1 points out.
I'd rather leave those rigid gender roles in the dump where they belong. My mom was the primary breadwinner in my house, and they're decades into a successful marriage with healthy & happy children.
Fitness, wealth, status, and power will always help you accomplish whatever goal you want. If what you're looking for is a deep, meaningful connection with another human, then I would advise you to interrogate the means you use and not just the end you're after.
It's good to work on your personal development. Not so good to put yourself in a box. If, god forbid, one day you get into a freak accident and can no longer work—you're going to get dropped like a hot potato if you've settled for someone who only sees you as a protector and provider.
If someone needs a parent they should see a therapist, not search out a glucose guardian.
I don't mean to say they're absolute. However I think the point I'm trying to get at is that they're a fact of life one has to deal with, even if they're not ideal.
I have observed that when I was most doggedly and earnestly pursuing my passion, women, even those who outwardly expressed their disdain for traditional gender roles, dismissed me romantically and sexually. Sometimes they even made jokes at my expense that belittled my stature as a man.
But when I put my passion on the back burner, had a job where I had some prestige & status as 'in charge of others', and was working out regularly enough for results visible through my clothing, those very same women treated me better and many expressed attraction. More than a couple made romantic/sexual advances. I liked being fit, but I hated that job.
I'm not saying we should teach young men to like this or that this is ideal. But it is the way things are, even in circles that are very socially progressive. Again, there are exceptions, but they are few enough to prove the rule.
>If...one day you get into a freak accident...you're going to get dropped like a hot potato
Totally. But that's about more than basic attraction, it's higher values like loyalty that come into play after a relationship starts. And if you try to date by filtering for that quality up front, you're going to have a very, very difficult time.
Like I said, we should encourage becoming a whole person, beyond gender roles. But young people should know that someone who values your self-actualization is a rare ideal, not a practical commonality. To only seek relationships with that kind of person is to be alone most, if not all, of your life. I am speaking from experience.
Women turn to AI boyfriends, and it is seen as “empowerment” because all men are filthy dogs and should die.
Men turn to AI girlfriends and feminism screams bloody murder because men are employing misogyny against IRL women by ignoring them. Plus, they’re probably abusing their AI girlfriends, or learning how to employ mental abuse to use against IRL girlfriends once they actually get one.
I might not put it quite the same way but I had similar thoughts about the contrast in which these things are often discussed.
Maybe it's not all quite that way though? The film Her is pretty similar to what's described in this article? Eerily so in many ways in fact. That protagonist is male.
For some reason your comments made me wonder about a gender-reversed take on Ex Machina. I don't mean that sarcastically, I just think it might be interesting what a good-faith exploration of some of the same questions might produce, as Ex Machina is so heavily focused on gender dynamics. Maybe you'd end up with essentially the same film though?
What you're seeing is artificial constructs that give men and women all the "good" parts with none of the "bad" parts. People get all up in arms about the specifics, but the core of it is a very dangerous precedent where people stop even trying to relate to each other, because a machine can give them their perfect fantasy. It's a siren song that will eventually enslave them.
And yes, men and women have generally differing ideas of what the "perfect fantasy" is. Get over it. We're not rational beings, and we want what we want.
Laughing at the idea that feminism is the main or even a primary antagonist here, and not all the other men laughing at virgin NEETs failing their biological imperative.
Total anecdata, none of my socialist female friends who hate AI care that men are using "AI girlfriends". It's not new. Replika has been out for awhile. They much prefer the system where these weirdos message a chatbot rather than stalk Instagram.
The last and honestly funniest part is you think society doesn't judge women who end up failing their biological imperative. I guess the term "spinster" has been out of vogue for a bit, but still. "Crazy cat lady" would be the modern equivalent. I'm sure some nice young person will come up with a postmodern term involving these AI companions. The message it's giving is definitely not "empowerment"
> The last and honestly funniest part is you think society doesn't judge women who end up failing their biological imperative.
You must be a boomer. They’re the only ones I have ever heard this from.
GenX here, and I haven’t heard that from any of my cohort or younger. My wife and I are DINKs straddling the threshold of our sixth decade, and have received NO pushback from being child free. And the younger people are considerably more progressive than even we are.
It seems to me that this would be life-changing for some people and great for others, but I fear that this is the emotional-intimacy version of refined sugar. It won't be the end of the world, but if everyone can press the intimacy button without gaining many of the less obvious benefits of a close relationship, it may be quite unhealthy.
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 48.0 ms ] threadSome more discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39424765
Because ideal boyfriends don’t actually exist. Just like how ideal girlfriends also don’t exist.
I think some young people need lessons on expectations in relationships.
Yes, but we also need better lessons on who/what to be. What are our responsibilities to our partner? As a 30y.o. male, I largely got a message about being myself and that women wanted sensitive men in touch with emotions. After a decade and a half of trial-and-error, and observing those around me, women absolutely respond to physical fitness, social status, career success and stoicism. Obviously everyone has different desires, but those four are really strong themes that you ignore only if you plan to limit your choices to a minority of the female population.
I wish someone had sat me down and really got it across like "Your role as a man is to be strong and dependable. Find a different outlet for your emotions than verbally expressing them. Pursue your interests to be a whole person, but remember that you will be valued as a man based on your ability to protect and provide. Ignore any advice or claims contrary to this, even if it comes directly from women."
Fitness, wealth, status, and power will always help you accomplish whatever goal you want. If what you're looking for is a deep, meaningful connection with another human, then I would advise you to interrogate the means you use and not just the end you're after.
It's good to work on your personal development. Not so good to put yourself in a box. If, god forbid, one day you get into a freak accident and can no longer work—you're going to get dropped like a hot potato if you've settled for someone who only sees you as a protector and provider.
If someone needs a parent they should see a therapist, not search out a glucose guardian.
I don't mean to say they're absolute. However I think the point I'm trying to get at is that they're a fact of life one has to deal with, even if they're not ideal.
I have observed that when I was most doggedly and earnestly pursuing my passion, women, even those who outwardly expressed their disdain for traditional gender roles, dismissed me romantically and sexually. Sometimes they even made jokes at my expense that belittled my stature as a man.
But when I put my passion on the back burner, had a job where I had some prestige & status as 'in charge of others', and was working out regularly enough for results visible through my clothing, those very same women treated me better and many expressed attraction. More than a couple made romantic/sexual advances. I liked being fit, but I hated that job.
I'm not saying we should teach young men to like this or that this is ideal. But it is the way things are, even in circles that are very socially progressive. Again, there are exceptions, but they are few enough to prove the rule.
>If...one day you get into a freak accident...you're going to get dropped like a hot potato
Totally. But that's about more than basic attraction, it's higher values like loyalty that come into play after a relationship starts. And if you try to date by filtering for that quality up front, you're going to have a very, very difficult time.
Like I said, we should encourage becoming a whole person, beyond gender roles. But young people should know that someone who values your self-actualization is a rare ideal, not a practical commonality. To only seek relationships with that kind of person is to be alone most, if not all, of your life. I am speaking from experience.
Women turn to AI boyfriends, and it is seen as “empowerment” because all men are filthy dogs and should die.
Men turn to AI girlfriends and feminism screams bloody murder because men are employing misogyny against IRL women by ignoring them. Plus, they’re probably abusing their AI girlfriends, or learning how to employ mental abuse to use against IRL girlfriends once they actually get one.
Woman using vibrator: empowered and engaging in self-care.
Man using fleshlight: sick and disgusting, a pathetic sh*tstain that can’t get sexual relief any other way.
Maybe it's not all quite that way though? The film Her is pretty similar to what's described in this article? Eerily so in many ways in fact. That protagonist is male.
For some reason your comments made me wonder about a gender-reversed take on Ex Machina. I don't mean that sarcastically, I just think it might be interesting what a good-faith exploration of some of the same questions might produce, as Ex Machina is so heavily focused on gender dynamics. Maybe you'd end up with essentially the same film though?
And yes, men and women have generally differing ideas of what the "perfect fantasy" is. Get over it. We're not rational beings, and we want what we want.
No, I take that back. Not social media. It was the widespread availability of effective contraception. #WTFHappenedIn1971.
Laughing at the idea that feminism is the main or even a primary antagonist here, and not all the other men laughing at virgin NEETs failing their biological imperative.
Total anecdata, none of my socialist female friends who hate AI care that men are using "AI girlfriends". It's not new. Replika has been out for awhile. They much prefer the system where these weirdos message a chatbot rather than stalk Instagram.
The last and honestly funniest part is you think society doesn't judge women who end up failing their biological imperative. I guess the term "spinster" has been out of vogue for a bit, but still. "Crazy cat lady" would be the modern equivalent. I'm sure some nice young person will come up with a postmodern term involving these AI companions. The message it's giving is definitely not "empowerment"
You must be a boomer. They’re the only ones I have ever heard this from.
GenX here, and I haven’t heard that from any of my cohort or younger. My wife and I are DINKs straddling the threshold of our sixth decade, and have received NO pushback from being child free. And the younger people are considerably more progressive than even we are.