Parchment paper, butcher paper etc can have a variety of different treatments used. PFAS is a common one. Silicone or a combination of PFAS and silicone is another one. Acid treated without a coating is less common although that was the original parchment paper back in the day. Personally, I use "If you care" brand from whole foods which has been independently tested to have the least PFAS.
This voluntary phase-out doesn't include parchment paper you use at home. It's for food packaging
> Shorter chain-length PFAS telomeric substances have been submitted to EPA for review as alternatives for a variety of uses including, for example, textile, carpet and paper additive uses and tile surface treatments.
That's incorrect. The voluntary phase-out covers all PFAS inclusive of shorter-chain molecules.
The most likely replacement are food-grade silicone alternatives. Silicone alternatives are also being used in waterproofing rain jackets, etc. (see Patagonia for example, who started by using C6, shorter chain PFAS, instead of C8, but now has switched to PFAS-free)
Question: didn’t DuPont and friends just launch “new products” with minor alterations to the chemical composition in order to clear the branding? I recall the newer substitutes were also “biopersistent” carbo-flourides or whatever they’re called.
If it's PFAS-free, then there is no fluoropolymer in it.
Shorter chain PFAS molecules, with shorter half-lives, have been and are still being explored as alternatives, for other use cases. This announcement applies only to the sale of food-contact paper and paperboard where PFAS was used fro grease-proofing.
The comments on this make me realize how far the information gap is that must be closed with the pubic. The media are not doing a great job
Safe for mice? Because that's how a lot of testing is done.
Or like teflon which is perfectly safe until it reaches an easy-to-reach stovetop temp, and then it kills budgies in your home, and turns to poison in the pan?
Teflon passed, knowing it was deadly after being too hot, with the assumption that "people won't accidentally let a pan get too hot". Suuure, no one will get distracted by kids , the phone, someone at the door, etc. Suuure, no one will make a mistake in years of use!
Somewhat is "safe"?
I agree it would be a nice thing, but are we capable of that?
For the FDA "working towards" could take several years.
The FDA knew since at least 2019 that baby food sold in the US (Gerber, Beech-Nut, Parent’s Choice, Earth’s Best Organic, etc.) contains dangerous levels of heavy metals but they did nothing about it at all until they were shamed by media attention which triggered an investigation from the Subcommittee on Economic and Consumer Policy who then put out a couple of damning reports.
To this day Americans continue to spoon-feed poison into the mouths of their infant children, and the FDA has yet to even set action levels which would tell companies how much poison is too much. They keep pushing back their timeline and right now they think they might have just the first of several needed action levels finalized at the end of this year. (https://www.fda.gov/food/environmental-contaminants-food/clo...).
I don't know if it's regulatory capture, bribes, a lack of funding/support from government, or incompetence but we really need a strong FDA that actually does their job.
It is a cat and mouse game my chemist friend told me. There are thousands of compounds not in the public spot light. If one becomes bad like BPA, they just switch to some slightly different compound.
There are still health concerns with the different compounds, but not the FDA has to catch up and that takes years.
I’ve really starting paying attention recently to how many people in positions of power are willing to literally kill thousands of people to gain material wealth they have no practical use for.
Boeing being the poster child for this trend, but it’s truly systemic and I feel it’s just gotten worse.
Of course it’s nothing “new” per se, but that only makes me think there is a structural flaw in our species if we elevate these killers into power.
Off-topic, but your comment reminded me of evergreening of medical drug patents [1] (example at [2]): when a pharmaceutical company's patent on a drug is close to expiring, the patent holder makes a minor change to the drug, patents the changed version, lets the patent on the unchanged version expire, and uses the new patent to sue anyone who makes or markets a generic version of the old drug. The patent on the changed version of the drug effectively covers the old version. The changed version of the drug is simultaneously different enough from the unchanged version that the pharmaceutical company can successfully apply for a new patent from the USPTO and similar enough that anyone who wants to make a biosimilar of the unchanged version can still be sued for patent infringement. The drug patent abusers eat their cakes and still have them.
The new patents shouldn't be granted in the first place, since one of the conditions of getting a patent on an invention is that the invention be novel over what has already been invented.
> Off-topic, but your comment reminded me of evergreening of medical drug patents
Wow thanks for the rabbit hole. Clicked around and found “me-too drugs”[1]:
> a medication that is similar to a pre-existing drug, usually by making minor modifications to the prototype […] used to treat conditions for which drugs already exist
Yep. Same playbook for sure.
> The changed version of the drug is simultaneously different enough from the unchanged version that the pharmaceutical company can successfully apply for a new patent from the USPTO and similar enough that anyone who wants to make a biosimilar of the unchanged version can still be sued for patent infringement.
Beyond! This is like Soviet levels of kafkaesque rules. All in the free market country of USA.
give yourself turbocancer to own the libs, I guess.
People who would like there to be less poison in the ecosystem have been getting very flattering labels ever since they started. the woke/unwoke thing is just the newest incremental.
Careful, believe it or not, "turbo cancer" is actually a thing in the anti-vax community.[0] Well, it's not really a thing but they're convinced it is.
Careful, believe it or not "turbo cancer" is actually a thing in the crackpot anti-vax community.[0] Well, it's not really a thing but they're convinced it is.
Not food, but I got a new chain for the bicycle today, and they are also teflon-lubricated when you get them (a workshop installed it). It's PFAS everywhere.
Which brand? I know all bike chains come with factory grease but I don't know if I've ever seen it indicated what they are lubricated with.
Of course there are plenty of commercial bike lubes that come with Teflon aka PTFE mixed in.
Completely unnecessary, there's a movement to move towards simple paraffin or natural waxes in the cycling community. In fact, wax wears chain less via less contamination and is vastly more efficient than many of the teflon drip lubes.
Don't know the brand unfortunately - I was basic and just asked the workshop to do it, because I don't have the tools to adjust the chain. I just thought it was interesting to me that the mechanic explained to me that they come in teflon coating.
Virtually all freshwater fishing and rainwater in the USA now has PFAS
It's also found in human mothers' breast milk when nursing.
It's teflon, etc. and it is never ever going away, we've made the planet toxic, forget global-warming/climate-change, this is going to take us out even sooner.
Elsewhere in the thread people mention bike chains but that pales skiers have been putting telfon on their skis to go faster/easier for decades now and all that stays on the snow and then melts into the water/ground forever.
Ai should come up with a simplified diet that is optimized to avoid these chemicals. I watched this youtube guy that climbs sky scrappers. Supper fit guy.
And his diet mostly consists of eggs, a beet, tomatoes, brown rice and a serving of fish. Very minimal and simple whole foods. And he looks fitter and healthier than 99.9% of people. Despite climbing sky scrappers without a harness, he still will probably live longer than people with a bad diet...so who is living the riskier lifestyle.
It's becoming obvious to me that rather than holding a blacklist of ingredients and products allowed in and around our foods we need to create a whitelist and sue into oblivion any corporation that steps outside of these bounds.
We already do this with medicine, but we seem to have nearly zero concern about foods, the vast majority of what flows through our bodies to (hopefully) provide nourishment.
52 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 98.4 ms ] thread[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39875053
This voluntary phase-out doesn't include parchment paper you use at home. It's for food packaging
1. https://www.epa.gov/assessing-and-managing-chemicals-under-t...
The most likely replacement are food-grade silicone alternatives. Silicone alternatives are also being used in waterproofing rain jackets, etc. (see Patagonia for example, who started by using C6, shorter chain PFAS, instead of C8, but now has switched to PFAS-free)
Shorter chain PFAS molecules, with shorter half-lives, have been and are still being explored as alternatives, for other use cases. This announcement applies only to the sale of food-contact paper and paperboard where PFAS was used fro grease-proofing.
The comments on this make me realize how far the information gap is that must be closed with the pubic. The media are not doing a great job
Safe for mice? Because that's how a lot of testing is done.
Or like teflon which is perfectly safe until it reaches an easy-to-reach stovetop temp, and then it kills budgies in your home, and turns to poison in the pan?
Teflon passed, knowing it was deadly after being too hot, with the assumption that "people won't accidentally let a pan get too hot". Suuure, no one will get distracted by kids , the phone, someone at the door, etc. Suuure, no one will make a mistake in years of use!
Somewhat is "safe"?
I agree it would be a nice thing, but are we capable of that?
You and I, maybe. But our agencies? Dunno.
The FDA knew since at least 2019 that baby food sold in the US (Gerber, Beech-Nut, Parent’s Choice, Earth’s Best Organic, etc.) contains dangerous levels of heavy metals but they did nothing about it at all until they were shamed by media attention which triggered an investigation from the Subcommittee on Economic and Consumer Policy who then put out a couple of damning reports.
To this day Americans continue to spoon-feed poison into the mouths of their infant children, and the FDA has yet to even set action levels which would tell companies how much poison is too much. They keep pushing back their timeline and right now they think they might have just the first of several needed action levels finalized at the end of this year. (https://www.fda.gov/food/environmental-contaminants-food/clo...).
It's not like they only drag their feet when it comes to poisoned babies either, they also fail to act on reports of dangerous or unlawful clinical trial practices (https://www.science.org/content/article/fda-s-own-documents-...)
I don't know if it's regulatory capture, bribes, a lack of funding/support from government, or incompetence but we really need a strong FDA that actually does their job.
There are still health concerns with the different compounds, but not the FDA has to catch up and that takes years.
Boeing being the poster child for this trend, but it’s truly systemic and I feel it’s just gotten worse.
Of course it’s nothing “new” per se, but that only makes me think there is a structural flaw in our species if we elevate these killers into power.
Boeing certainly provides a very substantial positive to humanity.
Just a reminder - Chemical Companies, legally, police themselves.
We have sooooo many PFOA's, like GenX, and some minor ones that are similar.
The original DuP documents from the 1950s said that /all/ PFOS/PFOAs should be burned.
The new patents shouldn't be granted in the first place, since one of the conditions of getting a patent on an invention is that the invention be novel over what has already been invented.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreening
[2] https://www.techdirt.com/2023/02/10/thanks-to-evergreening-a...
Wow thanks for the rabbit hole. Clicked around and found “me-too drugs”[1]:
> a medication that is similar to a pre-existing drug, usually by making minor modifications to the prototype […] used to treat conditions for which drugs already exist
Yep. Same playbook for sure.
> The changed version of the drug is simultaneously different enough from the unchanged version that the pharmaceutical company can successfully apply for a new patent from the USPTO and similar enough that anyone who wants to make a biosimilar of the unchanged version can still be sued for patent infringement.
Beyond! This is like Soviet levels of kafkaesque rules. All in the free market country of USA.
[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me-too_drug
Seeing the world through a bit of a reductionist lens, no? All policy questions come down to "woke" and "anti-woke"?
People who would like there to be less poison in the ecosystem have been getting very flattering labels ever since they started. the woke/unwoke thing is just the newest incremental.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo_cancer
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo_cancer
That's sadly the path the world is heading to. The (far-)right has managed to tie virtually every major policy debate into "culture war" questions.
Of course there are plenty of commercial bike lubes that come with Teflon aka PTFE mixed in.
Completely unnecessary, there's a movement to move towards simple paraffin or natural waxes in the cycling community. In fact, wax wears chain less via less contamination and is vastly more efficient than many of the teflon drip lubes.
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/lubetesting/
It's also an issue with cans. https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/bpa-update-tracking-c...
If you want to be safer rather than sorry, it seems best to opt for the glass option. Although, they are becoming rarer and rarer.
Even if it's not PFAS, plastic bottles often release different chemicals, especially when sour, heated, and stored for a long time.
It's also found in human mothers' breast milk when nursing.
It's teflon, etc. and it is never ever going away, we've made the planet toxic, forget global-warming/climate-change, this is going to take us out even sooner.
Elsewhere in the thread people mention bike chains but that pales skiers have been putting telfon on their skis to go faster/easier for decades now and all that stays on the snow and then melts into the water/ground forever.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/freshwater-fish-co...
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-62391069
Look at pubchem.
Does this mean if the product is produced outside the US and imported it could still be permitted?
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-anno...
We already do this with medicine, but we seem to have nearly zero concern about foods, the vast majority of what flows through our bodies to (hopefully) provide nourishment.