So Mule now has The Talk Show and its new iOS app is really a reskinned 5by5 app that never was released (check inside the app bundle and you'll see the class prefix is FBF and the 5by5 logo is even in there—presumably unused).
I listen to the talk show (and a lot of other podcasts) while I work. <gossipy>It seemed like there was some tension from John's perspective on the last episode</gossipy> Then it was strange that there wasnt an ep last week. Now we know why.
Hahah yeah. I thought it was just Gruber's personality. There were probably problems when Gruber slammed Readabliity as a scam while one of their investors is Jeffery Zeldman, another 5by5 host. He talked bad about it for a few episodes
I remember that episode and Dan seemed uncomfortable when John kept going and going about the topic. I don't know Dan personally, but I honestly think that he didn't like the fact that John called the "Readability guys" scumbags several times.
Or that he wouldn't like anyone saying that kind of stuff on his shows. I understand him.
If true, it's funny that John published another post a few minutes after the main one saying this about the new Mule Radio app: "The interface is simple and beautiful"
Can someone please explain the whole story from the start? I do not understand anything.
5by5 has an app, only recently released. Why would there be another one? Is the app 5by5 has the same as this Mule one? What is this Mule thing? Is it completely new?
Dan was talking about iOS app for long, long time - it was (presumably) nearly finished, but never released - app that was released recently is new project/rewrite of the old one.
There's only one. 5by5's app is for listening to live broadcasts of shows on their network.
Presumably, they were previously working with BlackPixel to do a podcasting app for the 5by5 shows, which was never released. The Mule Radio app appears to be a re-branded version of that unreleased app.
According to this tweet by Dan Benjamin about adding podcasting to the 5by5 app, he feels other apps already do it better. This may have been the reason why they scuttled their own podcasting app and went with a live broadcast app instead:
Note: I listen to Talk Show only occasionally, I'm more of Hypercritical guy.
So, Dan wanted an iOS app for some time now (year? more?) - and he was working with Black Pixel (http://blackpixel.com) on that.
We don't know exactly why, but that app was never released - Dan stopped talking about it (I'm not actually sure about this, somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.). Recently, he (again, not sure) wrote new app - that's what's on App Store as 5by5 app.
Parts of "old" app were apparently reused by Black Pixel while working on Mule Radio app (also by Black Pixel.).
The 5by5 app is a lot more live-listening-focused than the Black Pixel one. The Black Pixel/Mule app is a curated podcasting client. The current 5by5 app is specifically focused on live broadcast/notification/listening. It's an interesting contrast, IMHO; I wish each app had some of the features of the other.
Mule Radio was started by Mike Monteiro who used to do the Let's Make Mistakes podcast on 5by5. Not sure what that means but it might explain why they could've originally been building a 5by5 powered app and then switched to a different thing.
Anyone who listened to the shows last year knows Dan was working with Black Pixel on the 5by5 app. Why that fell through we won't know, but this app is clearly the result of that.
It would be interesting to know who paid how much of the app development. I hope Dan Benjamin did not get screwed by Gruber, the Mule Radio Network AND Black Pixel …
Maybe not the best wording on my part. I meant that they're reputable folks all around. There was no reason to speculate negatively about the app and Daniel's explanation above confirms that.
Hi there, I'm Dan, CEO of Black Pixel. I'd like to clear the air on this issue.
The application and the source code in question belongs to Black Pixel. We designed and developed the application in-house, at our own expense, and were going to license the binary for free, non-exclusive use on the 5by5 network, but that deal didn't work out.
Quite some time later, we got to know the folks at Mule Radio, and felt like there might be a good opportunity for our work to see the light of day. So we discussed things with them and licensed the binaries to them for use on their show.
So, to be clear, this app belongs to Black Pixel. We've never received a dime of money for it from anyone, because we wanted to have complete creative control over the product. We're happy that our app has found a home and are donating our time to support and add new features to the application as time goes on.
You have never received a dime of money for your app. So did you donate your app to the Mule Radio Network?
I had never heard of Black Pixel before. Now I know that you (or at least one of your developers) is rather of the lazy kind. Comm'on, renaming 5by5 to mule should have been a no-brainer!
Jim here, I work at Mule Design, host a show on Mule Radio and had the pleasure of working with the fine folks at Black Pixel on the app.
> I had never heard of Black Pixel before. Now I know that you (or at least one of your developers) is rather of the lazy kind.
You know what? It was a bug. Bugs happen. We actually discovered it a few days ago but, the app store being what it is, we couldn't get it swapped out in time. We have nothing but the highest confidence in Black Pixel and would jump at the opportunity to work with them again.
No one involved in this is being lazy and your insinuation is not only wrong and rude it's completely unnecessary.
Wow, didn't see that coming. Just last episode Dan & John were talking about reviving the movie review series with Hitchcock. I wonder if it has something to do with bringing Dalrymple on full time on Amplified, or Dan's persistent admonishment of Gruber's use of wifi during recording, or maybe Monteiro poached him with a paycheck. Yeah I know it makes me a bit of a jackass to speculate like a celebrity gossip writer, but this is infinitely more interesting to me than real celebrities.
I think this caught Dan by surprised. Dan got the Talk Show shirts made up and he seem pretty excited when he announced them during the last two minutes of episode 90. Gruber didn't seem to care at all.
I'm sure Mule offered Gruber a lot of money to bring the podcast to them. Got to support the family right?
yip - i listened to it again just now - while it is not uncommon for gruber to take like 3 mins to respond to questions on TTS I thought he was a bit hesitant with the "I guess so" - he must have known.
I felt the same way as you at the time I listened to it originally but it's very possible we are over analyzing it too.
One day a week I work on-site for a client and it's a monster commute. I need four hours of podcasts each week to make the drive down and back bearable. The Talk Show helped me get through a big chunk of that so it's a bummer to see its old format go away.
I'm going to give the new Talk Show a shot though. Even though Mike Monteiro doesn't appear to be directly involved with this new version (yet) my usual reaction to most things involving him isn't very favorable. I don't particularly enjoy his current podcast at Mule Radio and his recent book is good but not as good as he or the people involved want you to believe it is. But I find Gruber's take on most things, in particular Apple, too good to just automatically discount this new show through guilt by association.
Just relistened. Yeah the last 2 minutes sounded like typical Gruber, but the last 10 seconds do have an extra bit of awkwardness now with this news. Who knows.
I'd bet that's the core of it. Gruber probably thought he deserved more money, and Mule was willing to give it to him. The 5by5 hosts bring the lion's share of the value to the network, and I can't blame them if they want to get paid as such. It isn't screwing 5by5, per se, but perhaps a little scummy (as Gruber might write)?
UPDATE: Other explanations I'd also bet on (might as well hedge, right?):
(1) Gruber wanted to be with his friends on the Mule network
(2) 5by5 was getting a little crowded, and Gruber wanted the Talk Show to stick out a bit more.
They get paid. Dan talks about it occasionally, around talking about FreshBooks, I think.
No idea how much, but I think it was David Smith of Developing Perspective that said a week of DF sponsorship was $7K and 5by5 $5K? Sure at least the latter must depend on the show. Plus I'm probably mixing things up. Episode 42?
They do. In an episode of the After Dark (called Pamphlet) Dan talks a lot about 5by5, the equipment he uses and various other things, including addressing questions about whether hosts get paid. He says, in short, that if you hear a sponsor on the show then the host is getting paid.
We can't know. Mule prices their sponsorships at 200$ (without TTS, lets see when this show is priced in). TTS at 5by5 was charging a lot much higher.
So I suspect Gruber was making less and less % of the 5by5 total income as other shows became more popular (hypercritical hit a million downloads when the Lion review, also Marco Arment's show was pretty popular judging by my twitter timeline) and also more and more shows.
When TTS came back more than two years ago it was a handful of podcasts on 5by5 making less money, but I suspect Gruber took the biggest chunk then. Now he didn't anymore and the overall quantity didn't increase enough, so he moved to new pastures where he will get more money and maybe more control of the show.
I'm pretty disappointed with this move. I was getting a little tired of the Talk Show on 5By5 but it was still enjoyable because Dan brought humor and structure to the show.
I remember when Let's Make Mistakes split off and formed a new podcast network it felt odd to me at the time, like they used 5By5 to get some initial audience and then took them for themselves. For some reason it fit with the impression I get that Mike Monteiro is an asshole.
With this move I am done with the Talk Show. I just dont care any more.
Totally agreed. I know views are split on Gruber and I fell on the side of genuinely liking his blog and The Talk Show, but I think I'm done with both.
I'm absolutely disgusted right now. I shouldn't feel like it, but I think Gruber has screwed me personally. Shame on him (though I understand that he has a family and needs to make a living), but I just can't imagine how anyone could do it to Dan Benjamin...
I was never a talk show fan and prefer the excellent Hypercritical (with John Siracusa). For those who haven't listened to hypercritical: give it a shot, you won't regret it -- http://5by5.tv/hypercritical
This. Gruber's flippant attitude has been bringing the Talk Show down for the past few months. Dan is what holds it together. These days, Hypercritical is by far the best podcast I listen to.
I'd be really really sad if hypercritical gets cancelled. I hope John Siracusa never leaves 5by5 - Dan Benjamin doesn't contribute that much to the show, but is still a great host.
That's what makes the shows good. Dan, like most hosts that own networks (like Leo) don't really know a lot and don't really contribute to the conversation. Their job is to get the best cohorts and let them do their thing. As far as I'm concerned, the less Dan talks, the better. That's more time that people like Siracusa and Marco get to talk.
That's out of order. Dan is a coder, a writer, something of a designer, and has founded or been involved with several startups. He shows he knows a thing or two.
Put another way, I very much doubt any of these co-hosts you admire share your view that Dan is clueless.
Yes, he is a coder (Ruby on Rails), has had talks on Ruby, is familiar with iOS development, Perl, PHP (he said PHP was the language he used daily for a couple years) and is not clueless at all. He has also done a few PeepCode screencasts (Ruby, Sinatra, jQuery, Mercurial, Command Line, vi, ...).
The problem is John Siracusa, who basically knows too much.
Dan does know a lot about development. But compared to people like Marco and John Siracusa, who know about everything, Dan seems to take a back seat to the other co-hosts.
Dan is a smart guy; however, he doesn't have the in-depth tactical knowledge about how Apple works. Some of his questions and assertions about Apple are naive, which can be frustrating to listen to at times.
Absolutely. After months of being constantly busy, finally I had a few days to myself and listened to first episodes of Hypercritical (I got on aboard from episode 30) and they are really informative. Even those that are about really old events (like iPhone 5 predictions) are really insightful.
Let's make mistakes was an odd fit anyway, a bit like The Incomparable (which is very good but would belong more to a macworld network obviously).
Listening right now to the mule version of The Talk Show, it feels dull and way worse than when cohosted by Dan. It would actually be way funnier with a cohost like Mike Monteiro.
This is sad news. Dan was the one who balanced Gruber's cockiness. Oh well, though, 5by5 will be fine with its other good shows. Oh John Siracusa, please don't leave!
Hypercritical is by far my favorite podcast, it took the top spot on my playlists from the Talk Show a long time ago. I get the impression Siracusa does that podcast for fun, not profit and would never ditch Dan like Gruber has.
damn - that's a real shame. Listening to John and Dan shoot the breeze on any range of topics is/was one of the highlights of the week (podcast highlights anyway!). I'm assuming this wasn't a clean split given it was unannounced and given the T-Shirts which were printed for WWDC as announced on TTS90. I understand Dan and John have been good friends for a long time - hope this doesn't kill their friendship.
I don't know what happened here, but I agree with some of the other commenters that Dan really helped make this show what it is. He kept John focused and provided his own great input.
To be honest, I'll probably not follow The Talk Show anymore, and in my mind, the show was far from making or breaking 5by5.
Why so? It's the biggest company in the world, or at least it is sometimes. Apple's a big deal, in a bunch of ways. And most of the tech press is clueless about them.
Indeed. I listened to Marco Arment, Gruber and Siracusa everyweek. And then Horace Dediu every other week... but I got really tired and started skipping parts or shows altogether because I didnt want to sit through listening the same thing 4 times (ie: Apple v. Samsung, iOS5 launch, Lion launch, etc).
I think i learnt the most with Siracusa and Horace Dediu, but the show with Merlin Mann is the most inspirational.
Seriously though, it's John's show and he's free to take it to another network. I just _really_ hope that this transition was done in a respectful manner and that there isn't bad blood between 5by5 and Mule.
A little background: Let's Make Mistakes, Mule Radio's main show, got started with 5by5's help. Let's Make Mistakes was a 5by5 network show for it's first year of existence. It garnered all of the listenership and cross promotion that comes with being part of 5by5. After a year of getting traction, Mule split the show off into its own podcasting network, essentially becoming a competitor to 5by5. If Mule now aggressively poached The Talk Show from 5by5 then it was certainly a dick move.
Of course, we don't have all the details and this is just speculation. So again, I hope this was done in a way that respected Dan and 5by5.
I've seen Gruber say that Mike Montero was a really good friend of his a few times. He was even on their show. The move could be because he wanted to be with friends and support their efforts.
You'd think Gruber would have thanked 5by5 in his announcement if it had been a friendly parting of ways. The fact that he didn't is itself a dick move.
I don't know if the transition was respectful in what regards Dan, but it sure was not respectful towards the listeners.
As you, I also feel he's free to move his show wherever he wants, but I also thing he owes his listeners an explanation, or at least a comment. 5by5 was the house we visited to listen to John (with Dan) and we show up and he's not there. A mere link on his website, with no explanation, is, in my opinion, rather distasteful. I haven't heard the new episode until the end, so I don't know if he makes any comment at the end. But certainly there's no explanation or introduction. Even if they parted ways in an unfriendly fashion, he still owes a lot to Benjamin.
Finally, he's an awful Sponsor message reader. Poor Piezo.
I had noticed in the past weeks that Gruber wasn't writing or posting interesting stuff as much as before, Daring Fireball started to looked more like "curated" advertising for apps (paid or not paid, not sure about it); and it really is getting boring... and now you come up with this?. The sudden, and unexpected, move of one of the most beloved podcasts in the world (a big part thanks to Dan) without a word?
Gruber, you OWE an explanation to your readers, period!.
"Blogging is also about trust. If you’re readers know that you are writing from your heart, they will listen. They will engage you, and in the process you will learn something new. That, in turn, will help shape your opinions.
Blogging doesn’t have an agenda, other than expressing your true thoughts on a subject."
Trying hard to see the rationale behind this split. Gruber's emphasis has always been on "quality," "being the best," and "being right" in everything he does. Thus the only light through which I can see this decision is his belief that the show is better without Dan. Their relationship throughout The Talk Show has had its tumultuous moments: in early episodes, Benjamin's using an Android phone drew Gruber's ire, and then later there was animosity when Benjamin would show up for the Bond episodes unprepared. Gruber would accuse Dan of "yeah yeahing" his co-hosts and contributing little in the way of earnest dissent.
On the other hand, I always had the sense that Benjamin regarded Gruber as a kneejerk Apple apologist, and this too could not have helped their relationship.
But their differences led to the show's magic. Their contrasting styles would turn the show into a focused, intimate meditation on Gruber's thoughts on industry (plus side interests of baseball, Kubrick, etc.), often serving as a preview of what written work would be to come on Daring Fireball. While it can come across as aloofness, Dan has the passive ability to subtly guide the conversation and give it some sense of structure, and he's great at knowing when to let the other person speak. There were also incredibly funny moments of East Coast camaraderie that would keep the side topics interesting and lively.
It seems that Gruber has taken all of this for granted in deciding his show is better without Benjamin. Quite sad.
This is a shame, because I think that Dan Benjamin is a funny guy and good host. It took me a while to realize it. I initially came to 5by5 for Siracusa, Dediu, Gruber and Arment (in that order) but the longer I listen the more I appreciate Dan.
Just last week I was loving how Dan will say something outrageous, framed as a casual, factual statement about the co-host, to elicit a reaction. ("You just sit around in your underwear while you're doing this podcast." - not an actual quote, I'm just characterizing). Of everybody else, Gruber responded with the least appreciation of Dan's humor.
Oh well, maybe the new chemistry will be good too.
What are Mann's episodes about? I tried to listen a few times but I never fully understood what it was about and got confused... Could you give me a few pointers?!
Productivity...well, kind of. If the show is an hour long you get 45 minutes of madness with Mann and Dan talking almost incoherently but then you get 15 minutes of brilliance from Mann. I always walk away with some useful quip or anecdote about life or work.
They're supposedly about productivity, but most of the show is just Mann saying things in strange voices. If you can make it past the first ~20 minutes, things get less absurd and the hosts begin to form coherent thoughts.
Ha, I believe the original intent is to discuss productivity which is what Mann consults with business / startups.
It doesn't always go as planned which is probably why you were confused. The show is filled with random tangents which could be just as engaging. Topics include his other podcasts, Sodastream, keyboard, GTD, daughter, Star Wars, etc.
Pro Tip: sit with the episode for at least 30 minutes if you really want to hear the topic of the week. The first 29 minutes are build up to excellence.
Edit: I love the fact that while I was typing two other posts described the exact same thing. Awesome.
This 5by5 drawing sums it up, http://goo.gl/6kXwj
It's a good network overall, Merlin's show is mostly funny, he can touch on interesting topics about productivity, but mostly his character is very peculiar.
I suggest starting from the beginning. There is a lot of gold in those first few months of episodes, and they tend to get to the meat faster. These days they've built up quite a thick layer of memes and inside jokes, but they still talk about good stuff. If you don't enjoy the humor it's probably not worth it, but you won't be giving it a fair shot unless you get in from the ground floor. It's also probably the only 5by5 show that ages well.
Honestly, Merlin's meta commentary on the rest of the 5by5 network is what kills me, every time. I almost crashed on my way to work during the "King Marco" episode.
I imagine that this is money related. The Talk Show was one of the original shows. 5by5 has grown a lot since then. Dan has put ton of work in to his company. And it shows. Perhaps as a business 5by5 is doing much better now then it was when it started out. Perhaps gruber was still operating under the original agreement him and dan had when they first teamed up. Maybe gruber is no longer satisfied with their agreement seeing how well the talk show franchisee is doing.
This seemed more apparent when Dan teased him a bit for not wearing the 5by5 shirt. Seemed like a sore point.
Dan left me with a small impression that gruber what "phoning it in" by commenting on the fact that gruber didn't dress up for the show. Dan, it's a radio show. Good luck guys.
It's funny how so people always assume there has to be horrible personal conflicts behind these things. In my experience people mostly move on because they think they have found a better opportunity for themselves. Hard to second guess people's career moves.
Probably coincidental, but TTH was a tent pole show, and Big Week appears to be one as well.
I also think that bringing in Dalrymple might have made 5by5 feel too crowded. To my knowledge, of the 5 or so major podcasts on 5by5, Talk Show was the only one hosted by a blogger. (Though I'm hesitant to call John a blogger because he rarely writes original content. 95% of DF is links or quotes with one sentence of analysis, but that's neither here nor there) Dalrymple was only the second blogger, and Gruber must have felt that Jim was stealing his thunder.
Frankly, I think it's for the best. The Talk Show has been going down hill, and can't hold a candle to B&A or Hypercritical.
People hate change. Worse, people hate surprising change.
Mike is mostly mocking the people upset with this on Twitter, but if you enjoy a show made up of two people, people get annoyed when one party leaves with no explanation.
Lots of people say "they don't OWE us an explanation". I disagree. People invested in 5by5 through buying shirts, buying the app, listening to ads and using their promo codes, and the time they spent listening and interacting with the network. And when you sign off a show saying another one is coming, and then switch networks and drop 1/2 of the show with no explanation, that's rude.
The way this went down, there's two possibilities:
1. Dan had no idea, which is why he got the shirts printed and TTS was still on 5by5's recording schedule as of Gruber's announcement it moved to Mule.
2. Dan was in on it, but had agreed with Gruber and Mule to keep it secret, for whatever reason.
How could Dan Benjamin be on it? The poor guy created a new set of 'talk show/5by5' t-shirts literally days ago (in time for WWDC) and was so happy about it...
It's called "The Talk Show". Gruber/Mule is using the built in fan-base from the previous show, and by calling it the same, be it "Talk Show 3.0" or "Talk Show Season 3" you're inviting comparisons to the previous one and it's not the same.
Everytime a new television season starts up we don't say "oh it takes a few episodes to get the footing", that's what season 1 is for.
Calling this "The Talk Show" (which it clearly isn't), using similar graphics, similar style, all of those things are, as Gruber would say, dick moves. If Gruber wanted to leave the show, move to another network fine. But come up with a new title. Many people would just assume "oh okay, Gruber has a new show that he's doing". Once we went a few weeks without Talk Show we might think "Hmm, guess The Talk Show is done?" and that's that.
But by DELIBERATELY making this out to be the same show is a bit scummy.
Maybe Dan fired John, and as payback he did this. Maybe John quit and took the show with him. Either way, it should have been launched and branded as a completely new thing if thats how they want it to be thought as.
If they're going to call it "The Talk Show" than its a continuation of what we already had and therefore I expect the quality 90 episodes brings. And if that's not there I'll give up, just like I do with TV shows that run their course after a few seasons.
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[ 4.7 ms ] story [ 217 ms ] threadNerd drama.
edit: here's a screengrab of the Mule Radio app bundle if you're curious: http://cl.ly/1E240C0C272c2R3L2N19
I listen to the talk show (and a lot of other podcasts) while I work. <gossipy>It seemed like there was some tension from John's perspective on the last episode</gossipy> Then it was strange that there wasnt an ep last week. Now we know why.
Or that he wouldn't like anyone saying that kind of stuff on his shows. I understand him.
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/05/18/mule-radio-app
5by5 has an app, only recently released. Why would there be another one? Is the app 5by5 has the same as this Mule one? What is this Mule thing? Is it completely new?
Now we know what happened with that version.
Presumably, they were previously working with BlackPixel to do a podcasting app for the 5by5 shows, which was never released. The Mule Radio app appears to be a re-branded version of that unreleased app.
According to this tweet by Dan Benjamin about adding podcasting to the 5by5 app, he feels other apps already do it better. This may have been the reason why they scuttled their own podcasting app and went with a live broadcast app instead:
https://twitter.com/#!/danbenjamin/status/203466535107440640
So, Dan wanted an iOS app for some time now (year? more?) - and he was working with Black Pixel (http://blackpixel.com) on that.
We don't know exactly why, but that app was never released - Dan stopped talking about it (I'm not actually sure about this, somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.). Recently, he (again, not sure) wrote new app - that's what's on App Store as 5by5 app.
Parts of "old" app were apparently reused by Black Pixel while working on Mule Radio app (also by Black Pixel.).
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/5by5-radio/id520847556?mt=8
EDIT: As I suspected there's nothing shady going on, but my guess as to the ownership was wrong. It's explained here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3994053
The application and the source code in question belongs to Black Pixel. We designed and developed the application in-house, at our own expense, and were going to license the binary for free, non-exclusive use on the 5by5 network, but that deal didn't work out.
Quite some time later, we got to know the folks at Mule Radio, and felt like there might be a good opportunity for our work to see the light of day. So we discussed things with them and licensed the binaries to them for use on their show.
So, to be clear, this app belongs to Black Pixel. We've never received a dime of money for it from anyone, because we wanted to have complete creative control over the product. We're happy that our app has found a home and are donating our time to support and add new features to the application as time goes on.
We hope you enjoy it.
-Daniel Pasco, CEO Black Pixel
You have never received a dime of money for your app. So did you donate your app to the Mule Radio Network?
I had never heard of Black Pixel before. Now I know that you (or at least one of your developers) is rather of the lazy kind. Comm'on, renaming 5by5 to mule should have been a no-brainer!
> I had never heard of Black Pixel before. Now I know that you (or at least one of your developers) is rather of the lazy kind.
You know what? It was a bug. Bugs happen. We actually discovered it a few days ago but, the app store being what it is, we couldn't get it swapped out in time. We have nothing but the highest confidence in Black Pixel and would jump at the opportunity to work with them again.
No one involved in this is being lazy and your insinuation is not only wrong and rude it's completely unnecessary.
"Fuck you. Pay me" - Mike Monteiro.
I'm sure Mule offered Gruber a lot of money to bring the podcast to them. Got to support the family right?
It's a shame. Dan gives John structure. On the new Talk Show John's rambling all over the place. Sad.
Benjamin: "We'll be back regular time next week, right?" Gruber: "I guess so." Benjamin: "Ok. Thanks John." Gruber: "Adios."
One day a week I work on-site for a client and it's a monster commute. I need four hours of podcasts each week to make the drive down and back bearable. The Talk Show helped me get through a big chunk of that so it's a bummer to see its old format go away.
I'm going to give the new Talk Show a shot though. Even though Mike Monteiro doesn't appear to be directly involved with this new version (yet) my usual reaction to most things involving him isn't very favorable. I don't particularly enjoy his current podcast at Mule Radio and his recent book is good but not as good as he or the people involved want you to believe it is. But I find Gruber's take on most things, in particular Apple, too good to just automatically discount this new show through guilt by association.
That strikes me as something Gruber would get pissed off about — Dan not clearing something like a new t-shirt that uses 'his' brand.
"The Talk Show T-Shirt (WWDC 2012 Edition) has finally arrived!Featuring The Talk Show logo printed on a black"
http://shop.5by5.tv/password
"This run is done, thanks for coming by!"
Already pulled.
Dan is a professional and has my respect, where as Monteiro makes cheap vulgar jokes. I know which attitude I prefer to support.
UPDATE: Other explanations I'd also bet on (might as well hedge, right?): (1) Gruber wanted to be with his friends on the Mule network (2) 5by5 was getting a little crowded, and Gruber wanted the Talk Show to stick out a bit more.
I had always assumed it was free and easy advertisement for their apps, sites etc.
No idea how much, but I think it was David Smith of Developing Perspective that said a week of DF sponsorship was $7K and 5by5 $5K? Sure at least the latter must depend on the show. Plus I'm probably mixing things up. Episode 42?
http://5by5.tv/afterdark/75
We can't know. Mule prices their sponsorships at 200$ (without TTS, lets see when this show is priced in). TTS at 5by5 was charging a lot much higher.
So I suspect Gruber was making less and less % of the 5by5 total income as other shows became more popular (hypercritical hit a million downloads when the Lion review, also Marco Arment's show was pretty popular judging by my twitter timeline) and also more and more shows.
When TTS came back more than two years ago it was a handful of podcasts on 5by5 making less money, but I suspect Gruber took the biggest chunk then. Now he didn't anymore and the overall quantity didn't increase enough, so he moved to new pastures where he will get more money and maybe more control of the show.
/Rant
I remember when Let's Make Mistakes split off and formed a new podcast network it felt odd to me at the time, like they used 5By5 to get some initial audience and then took them for themselves. For some reason it fit with the impression I get that Mike Monteiro is an asshole.
With this move I am done with the Talk Show. I just dont care any more.
I can't imagine how someone could do this to Dan.
Hypercritical is the new hotness anyway.
Shame on Gruber.
I was never a talk show fan and prefer the excellent Hypercritical (with John Siracusa). For those who haven't listened to hypercritical: give it a shot, you won't regret it -- http://5by5.tv/hypercritical
It's not worth listening to without Dan Benjamin.
Hypercritical is excellent.
Put another way, I very much doubt any of these co-hosts you admire share your view that Dan is clueless.
The problem is John Siracusa, who basically knows too much.
>It's not worth listening to without Dan Benjamin.
Listening right now to the mule version of The Talk Show, it feels dull and way worse than when cohosted by Dan. It would actually be way funnier with a cohost like Mike Monteiro.
To be honest, I'll probably not follow The Talk Show anymore, and in my mind, the show was far from making or breaking 5by5.
In contrast, Siracusa is so engaged that he has to forcefully cut himself off at the three hour mark.
I do like 5by5, and use Macs myself, but a toning down of the echo-chamber is not all bad.
I think i learnt the most with Siracusa and Horace Dediu, but the show with Merlin Mann is the most inspirational.
Seriously though, it's John's show and he's free to take it to another network. I just _really_ hope that this transition was done in a respectful manner and that there isn't bad blood between 5by5 and Mule.
A little background: Let's Make Mistakes, Mule Radio's main show, got started with 5by5's help. Let's Make Mistakes was a 5by5 network show for it's first year of existence. It garnered all of the listenership and cross promotion that comes with being part of 5by5. After a year of getting traction, Mule split the show off into its own podcasting network, essentially becoming a competitor to 5by5. If Mule now aggressively poached The Talk Show from 5by5 then it was certainly a dick move.
Of course, we don't have all the details and this is just speculation. So again, I hope this was done in a way that respected Dan and 5by5.
Looks like John was the initiator:
> John approached us and we were thrilled to welcome him.
https://twitter.com/#!/MuleRadio/status/203567508660297728
As you, I also feel he's free to move his show wherever he wants, but I also thing he owes his listeners an explanation, or at least a comment. 5by5 was the house we visited to listen to John (with Dan) and we show up and he's not there. A mere link on his website, with no explanation, is, in my opinion, rather distasteful. I haven't heard the new episode until the end, so I don't know if he makes any comment at the end. But certainly there's no explanation or introduction. Even if they parted ways in an unfriendly fashion, he still owes a lot to Benjamin.
Finally, he's an awful Sponsor message reader. Poor Piezo.
Gruber, you OWE an explanation to your readers, period!.
As Jim Dalrymple commented in his post (http://www.loopinsight.com/2012/05/17/blogging-is-not-a-thin...) :
"Blogging is also about trust. If you’re readers know that you are writing from your heart, they will listen. They will engage you, and in the process you will learn something new. That, in turn, will help shape your opinions.
Blogging doesn’t have an agenda, other than expressing your true thoughts on a subject."
That trust just started to crumble..
On the other hand, I always had the sense that Benjamin regarded Gruber as a kneejerk Apple apologist, and this too could not have helped their relationship.
But their differences led to the show's magic. Their contrasting styles would turn the show into a focused, intimate meditation on Gruber's thoughts on industry (plus side interests of baseball, Kubrick, etc.), often serving as a preview of what written work would be to come on Daring Fireball. While it can come across as aloofness, Dan has the passive ability to subtly guide the conversation and give it some sense of structure, and he's great at knowing when to let the other person speak. There were also incredibly funny moments of East Coast camaraderie that would keep the side topics interesting and lively.
It seems that Gruber has taken all of this for granted in deciding his show is better without Benjamin. Quite sad.
Just last week I was loving how Dan will say something outrageous, framed as a casual, factual statement about the co-host, to elicit a reaction. ("You just sit around in your underwear while you're doing this podcast." - not an actual quote, I'm just characterizing). Of everybody else, Gruber responded with the least appreciation of Dan's humor.
Oh well, maybe the new chemistry will be good too.
It's always when they cycle through "I think you mean.." and "No, you're probably thinking..."
It doesn't always go as planned which is probably why you were confused. The show is filled with random tangents which could be just as engaging. Topics include his other podcasts, Sodastream, keyboard, GTD, daughter, Star Wars, etc.
Pro Tip: sit with the episode for at least 30 minutes if you really want to hear the topic of the week. The first 29 minutes are build up to excellence.
Edit: I love the fact that while I was typing two other posts described the exact same thing. Awesome.
Who's the guy in the middle left?
(I think the discussion on this submission is one of the most intellectually-uninteresting HN discussions ever!)
This seemed more apparent when Dan teased him a bit for not wearing the 5by5 shirt. Seemed like a sore point. Dan left me with a small impression that gruber what "phoning it in" by commenting on the fact that gruber didn't dress up for the show. Dan, it's a radio show. Good luck guys.
It's fun to guess at these things.
http://blog.5by5.tv/2012/5/18/coming-soon-big-week-with-dan-...
Probably coincidental, but TTH was a tent pole show, and Big Week appears to be one as well.
I also think that bringing in Dalrymple might have made 5by5 feel too crowded. To my knowledge, of the 5 or so major podcasts on 5by5, Talk Show was the only one hosted by a blogger. (Though I'm hesitant to call John a blogger because he rarely writes original content. 95% of DF is links or quotes with one sentence of analysis, but that's neither here nor there) Dalrymple was only the second blogger, and Gruber must have felt that Jim was stealing his thunder.
Frankly, I think it's for the best. The Talk Show has been going down hill, and can't hold a candle to B&A or Hypercritical.
Mike is mostly mocking the people upset with this on Twitter, but if you enjoy a show made up of two people, people get annoyed when one party leaves with no explanation.
Lots of people say "they don't OWE us an explanation". I disagree. People invested in 5by5 through buying shirts, buying the app, listening to ads and using their promo codes, and the time they spent listening and interacting with the network. And when you sign off a show saying another one is coming, and then switch networks and drop 1/2 of the show with no explanation, that's rude.
The way this went down, there's two possibilities:
1. Dan had no idea, which is why he got the shirts printed and TTS was still on 5by5's recording schedule as of Gruber's announcement it moved to Mule.
2. Dan was in on it, but had agreed with Gruber and Mule to keep it secret, for whatever reason.
It's called "The Talk Show". Gruber/Mule is using the built in fan-base from the previous show, and by calling it the same, be it "Talk Show 3.0" or "Talk Show Season 3" you're inviting comparisons to the previous one and it's not the same.
Everytime a new television season starts up we don't say "oh it takes a few episodes to get the footing", that's what season 1 is for.
Calling this "The Talk Show" (which it clearly isn't), using similar graphics, similar style, all of those things are, as Gruber would say, dick moves. If Gruber wanted to leave the show, move to another network fine. But come up with a new title. Many people would just assume "oh okay, Gruber has a new show that he's doing". Once we went a few weeks without Talk Show we might think "Hmm, guess The Talk Show is done?" and that's that.
But by DELIBERATELY making this out to be the same show is a bit scummy.
Maybe Dan fired John, and as payback he did this. Maybe John quit and took the show with him. Either way, it should have been launched and branded as a completely new thing if thats how they want it to be thought as.
If they're going to call it "The Talk Show" than its a continuation of what we already had and therefore I expect the quality 90 episodes brings. And if that's not there I'll give up, just like I do with TV shows that run their course after a few seasons.