I genuinely wish them well. There has been scant but minor consumer flourishes in OSes for a long long time. Harmony's basis as a distributed multikernel (Linux, LiteOS, other?) OS, with DSoftBus connecting services is an aggressive leap forwards that looks so promising & neat; apps and devices working together (it reminds me of Webinos a bit). Their Ark development experience looks like a decent distillation/extension of JS/typescript, which could become a stable path in a still chaotic Js world.
The plan here sounds very open source oriented, which is promising & IMHO what it will take for Harmony to have staying power. But it feels like a kind of tumltous time for Harmony. Open Harmony and others feels like they're more than somewhat being left behind as Huawei advances a seemingly re-proprietarized HarmonyOS NEXT. Right when Harmony seemed to be coming into it's own, it feels torn. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarmonyOS_NEXT
There's very few guides or experience out there on using Open Harmony. Huawei really seemed to have capture the Harmony market, and their recent sudden shift to proprietary is a huge barrier to this early OS keeping traction forwards. It's unclear how Open Harmony or other open source Harmony's are going to proceed. I hope they can create some good
There are two of them. HarmonyOS is a fork of Android, another (I think it's officially called OpenHarmony) is a custom microkernel OS for IoT devices.
This is such a common view, but are software backdoors really that much less common in the US or EU?
Data is often the real value when it comes to governments, and at that point the only protection is either using services that collect very little (few exist) or end to end encryption. On the E2E front, it seems only a matter of time until one of the many attempts to require encryption backdoors passes in the west.
I've personally analysed various Chinese CCTV firmware vendors and backdoors planted there were obvious, here's an example: https://github.com/zb3/tiandy-research, but a better example was XiongMai which actively tried to disguise the backdoor ("Ret" was normally used for replies in that protocol, but the backdoor op requires it set in the request, you can't explain this by incompetence)
Are vendors in the US or EU required to do crap like that while also being prohibited to admit it?
Of course services that collect the data "in the cloud" share that data with the government, but this is official and predictable.
I expect it depends quite a bit on how specific of a definitions of "backdoors" we're talking about.
Our main OSes, desktop and mobile, have quite a few backdoors though I couldn't speak to whether the government forced them to do it. Mobile phones, mobile networks, and most (if not all) of the internet trunk lines include backdoors for the government to use. Data collection isn't technically a backdoor, though functionally it is as it allows the government to do what they want to while dodging regulations for search warrants and similar.
The Twitter files point to another backdoor, even if again not technically quite a software "backdoor".
If we stick to the strict definition of a backdoor, the CCP very likely has more control over companies and does require software backdoors for the government to access. In a more general sense though, I at least wouldn't consider the US or the EU to be meaningfully better about the government having access to and control of tech in much the same way.
Maybe the shoddy backdoors are an example of malicious compliance with the law? Probably not, they'd lose less sales if the backdoors were well hidden.
These are white-label though, you don't buy a "XiongMai" product, you buy a product that you think is made by your local manufacturer, except it has Chinese firmware inside..
Windows sends data to Microsoft and Microsoft shares the data with the government. This is official and mandated by the law.
But XiongMai plants backdoors in their CCTV firmware so that data is shared with anyone interested, all around the world. Of course it magically turns out, that cameras they supply for the government are not vulnerable. What a coincidence...
- Windows isn't the only other OS, nor would that mean that what the CCP is doing with HarmonyOS is OK.
- Backdoors are the rule, not the exception in China. This is not true of the US.
- I disagree with the Patriot Act and NSLs, but let's not forget that the US is a free democracy and that those laws can change if there is political will. That isn't the case in China.
Its like people completely forgot Prism. The caricature like understanding from Americans of China is mind boggling. I guess decades of McCarthyism takes its toll on the American mind.
I'm Canadian, and I haven't forgot PRISM. It's not a caricature to call China an authoritarian government. PRISM doesn't change the later.
Every time someone brings up the CCP doing something bad, I need to suffer some whataboutism re: the USA that is supposed to justify it. Backdoors are bad wherever they appear. Because China is an authoritarian regime, it can backdoor openly without consequence.
This is my eternal question on HN: Why is every criticism of China, no matter how small, invoke a million people who spring out of the wood work to decry the acts of the US by way of justification or radical digression.
I am desperately pleading for an answer because for some reason there is a group of folks on this godforsaken website that can't help themselves from doing so and it's driving me absolutely mad.
Can we please just acknowledge a criticism or statement of fact about the CCP? Is that allowed?
> Then ask yourself why people can't equivocate between similarly "bad" US / PRC actions without customary muh freedom/democracy/violates are exceptions narrative.
Pretty much nobody on this site (besides particular corporate sycophants) will deny that the US has nightmare-inducing surveillance capabilities. It's not hypocritical to call-out and identify another authoritarian overreach in another country that also threatens it's citizens.
This isn't a slight against Chinese citizens or American citizens, for that matter. We know exactly who to blame - Google, Apple and Microsoft for rolling over when governments asked them to get backdoored. This started a privacy-shattering precedent that undermined trust even further than ever before, but now we accept it and readily spread it to our family in the form of a smartphone. Look at how easily all of us were fooled.
Promote software freedom. Get people off proprietary shitware and bugged hardware. That's what matters to me, and any government that better enables me to do that earns my respect.
to me it seems like there are systems of control in US, China, West whatever and the western ones are just a lot more subtle or savvier than the chinese equivalents but functionally serve a lot of similar purposes (For example, US media is always in lockstep on important issues despite being a "free" press!)
It happens in every thread like this and it’s extremely frustrating, especially when you dig into the US side and find out it’s not as bad as the sensationalists make it seem.
Can’t say I blame them give how windows is going. The UI approach reminds me of a wall that has been repeatedly painted over but only partially and the entire thing is dragged down by the telemetry
> The UI approach reminds me of a wall that has been repeatedly painted over
Ah, you're talking about Windows' UI. I was wondering where I could see screenshots of HarmonyOS. But yeah Windows 10/11's "Settings" is a mix of mobile-esque UI and the old-school Windows 7 (or XP?) control panel screens. I'd hate to be working on it, the PM's must've said everything needs to be reworked but they didn't give the UI/UX designers and developers the time to do so before "We've got to ship! Besides, we do continous delivery now, if we don't finish it, it can wait until the next release!".
Interestingly, I'd be curious how much telemetry an OS made under the Xi regime would have, at least in China. From an article [1] (on HN yesterday: [2]), when police visited a teen and told him he uploaded "anti government" videos:
> “That’s ridiculous,” Vincent said. “I have never browsed such videos, not to mention posted them in the Internet. You must be joking.”
> “Maybe you didn’t post it by yourself,” the policeman said. “But the app may back up the video automatically.”
> Vincent admitted that once, in a WeChat group, he had come across a terrorist video. The police instructed him to get his I.D. card and accompany them to the station. After they arrived, they entered a room labelled “Cybersecurity Police,” where Vincent was impressed by the officers’ politeness. (“It’s not scary at all, no handcuffs and no cage.”) The police informed him that they had found a host of sensitive and banned material on his cloud storage:
> “But how interesting it is!” the policeman said. “They sent pornographic videos, traffic accident videos, [breaking news] videos, and funny videos.”
> “Yes,” he said helplessly, “so I am innocent.”
> “Yes, we believe you,” the policeman said. “But you have to [sign] the record because it is the fact that you posted the terrorism video in the Internet, which is illegal.”
I think your evaluation of Windows is outdated. Windows 11’s settings screen is quite unified. I haven’t seen anything that resembles Windows 7 in a long time.
The rest of your comment is pretty irrelevant to this OS if I’ll be honest. It’s all about cloud storage and uploads, all activity unrelated to the local OS.
Can't even get all the windows to the same light/dark mode let alone have a unified look of components. Variety of title bars, different checkboxes, different fonts, colours even the way window navigation works differs in jarring ways within areas like control panel (sometimes opens new window, sometimes uses current, sometimes current but with sublevel logic).
Maybe I'm just sensitive to this sort of thing, but unified is certainly not a word I'd apply.
I think it’s ironic that Windows is removing “windows” from the UI.
I used to be able to have System settings and Windows Update open at the same time. (Not the best but something like this bugged me recently). Now I can’t?!?
Can’t even flip back and forth (without triggering rescan of windows updates).
Maybe Windows 12 will just be a touch enabled DOSSHELL.EXE
In the west you "promote hate" or "spread misinfo" or "are a Russian agent"; in China you "disturb the harmony". All ways to silence dissent if you ask me.
Exploring the meaning behind the use of the word "Harmony" was the beginning of an interesting discussion but the last part of your comment unfortunately reads like thinly-veiled partisan jabs. You unnecessarily chose phrases particularly associated with the American left-wing when a more neutral approach would have been sufficient.
The idea of "Harmony" is strongly connected to collectivist ideology. In the west, mainstream political parties tend to embody particular aspects of collectivism, while parties that completely embrace or reject it are relegated to the fringe (eg. Communist or Libertarian parties). In the US, the right-wing tends to be highly collectivist when it comes to the military/law enforcement (eg. "Support our troops"), religious practice, and national identity (eg. "Patriots") while the left-wing tends to be more collectivist when it comes to government programs and policy (eg. Universal Healthcare).
Could not agree with you more. I was maybe --in my defence-- more pointing towards the irony of the word which I happen to know (as an outsider) is so ingrained in Chinese state messaging that it even has an "internet slang", namely: river crab.
Wrt my own political-economic convictions, im a socialist far more left than "typical left wing american", which are not socialist (so not actually "left" of anything) and this mere right wingers in disguise imho. Im not from the US btw.
I’m not surprised at the lack of enlightening conversation on this topic. Like, yeah, I get it, China is an authoritarian surveillance state. We all know that.
Just don’t be surprised when China’s public and private enterprises make strides to curb their dependence on Western hardware and software. Don’t be surprised when they catch up quickly like they have in so many industries.
“China will never make globally competitive cars”
“China will never be able to make its own heavy industry products like jets and trains”
But now you’re moving goal posts. We were talking “developed” now we are talking “places where people want to live.”
Even if I go with your new goal posts that in itself a dubious…for example, Dubai’s population is over 80% expatriates. Seems like people want to live there.
Russia has one of the highest income inequality rates of developed countries and major regional disparities but it is still by definition a developed country. Its real GDP per capita of $27,500 is considered wealthy on a global scale. That number is comparable to Spain.
Russia has an HDI of >.800 which is classified as “very high.” This number is higher than China, India, and Brazil.
People in Russia generally aren’t lacking access to improved sanitation.
Russia has compulsory education and a full literacy rate.
Don’t forget that this is a country that has been industrialized for a long time. This is a country among a very short list that can do things like get rockets into space and build jet aircraft engines. Even manufacturing powerhouse China has to import engines and avionics for its C919 aircraft. The Tu-214 uses Russian avionics and engines.
Russia or Turkey wouldn’t be my choice of place to live but they are developed.
thank you and ok, I see you argument. I am astonished that such poor countries are counted as developed. I am asking myself how bad are non developed countries.
None of those are developed and still have a large part of the country undeveloped.
The UAE is probably the closest one from your list but you'd have to basically ignore the large Indian diaspora which isn't treated very well to make it fit.
From my observation, China's most prominent successes (EVs, Drones, etc) have been through emerging technologies where established players have neglected. I believe the "Blue Ocean Strategy" was considered as one of the most influential books by the CCP, and they've executed that strategy well.
But in terms of "red oceans", I don't really see China having any special advantages over the already heavy competition beyond manafacturing, after all they never did make a globally competitive ICE car, it was through leapfrogging with EVs that they succeeded. If we talk about OS here, domestically they can do whatever, but I don't see why it wouldn't just be another competitor in a long list of competitors.
I think the red oceans are just longer term pieces of the puzzle. The blue ocean opportunities were quick wins.
By the way, Chinese companies own multiple Western ICE car manufacturers. Those manufacturers (Volvo, Lotus, Polestar) are transitioning to EVs or only make EVs anyway.
Here’s an example on the software side: what happens if the Chinese smartphone players drop Android? Let’s say Xiaomi and Huawei now only come with a Chinese OS which can run Android apps as a stopgap, replacing Google Play with their own App Store. Those two brands represent 20% of European cell phone marketshare.
Now imagine this Chinese OS gives Samsung a better arrangement than Google. Overnight, Google is basically out of the picture.
That’s right, they only have to convince one phone manufacturer who already depends on a third party company for their OS to switch, and the instant they do so they win over more than half of the European smartphone market.
59 comments
[ 5.4 ms ] story [ 137 ms ] threadThe plan here sounds very open source oriented, which is promising & IMHO what it will take for Harmony to have staying power. But it feels like a kind of tumltous time for Harmony. Open Harmony and others feels like they're more than somewhat being left behind as Huawei advances a seemingly re-proprietarized HarmonyOS NEXT. Right when Harmony seemed to be coming into it's own, it feels torn. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarmonyOS_NEXT
There's very few guides or experience out there on using Open Harmony. Huawei really seemed to have capture the Harmony market, and their recent sudden shift to proprietary is a huge barrier to this early OS keeping traction forwards. It's unclear how Open Harmony or other open source Harmony's are going to proceed. I hope they can create some good
You mean backdoors? Don't forget these are not optional in China
Data is often the real value when it comes to governments, and at that point the only protection is either using services that collect very little (few exist) or end to end encryption. On the E2E front, it seems only a matter of time until one of the many attempts to require encryption backdoors passes in the west.
Are vendors in the US or EU required to do crap like that while also being prohibited to admit it? Of course services that collect the data "in the cloud" share that data with the government, but this is official and predictable.
Our main OSes, desktop and mobile, have quite a few backdoors though I couldn't speak to whether the government forced them to do it. Mobile phones, mobile networks, and most (if not all) of the internet trunk lines include backdoors for the government to use. Data collection isn't technically a backdoor, though functionally it is as it allows the government to do what they want to while dodging regulations for search warrants and similar.
The Twitter files point to another backdoor, even if again not technically quite a software "backdoor".
If we stick to the strict definition of a backdoor, the CCP very likely has more control over companies and does require software backdoors for the government to access. In a more general sense though, I at least wouldn't consider the US or the EU to be meaningfully better about the government having access to and control of tech in much the same way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XKeyscore
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010s_global_surveillance_disc...
Its certainly not like we don't try.
Yes.
...the reason i do not wish them well :)
But XiongMai plants backdoors in their CCTV firmware so that data is shared with anyone interested, all around the world. Of course it magically turns out, that cameras they supply for the government are not vulnerable. What a coincidence...
[1] https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/meet-the-cuban-expatri...
- Windows isn't the only other OS, nor would that mean that what the CCP is doing with HarmonyOS is OK.
- Backdoors are the rule, not the exception in China. This is not true of the US.
- I disagree with the Patriot Act and NSLs, but let's not forget that the US is a free democracy and that those laws can change if there is political will. That isn't the case in China.
Every time someone brings up the CCP doing something bad, I need to suffer some whataboutism re: the USA that is supposed to justify it. Backdoors are bad wherever they appear. Because China is an authoritarian regime, it can backdoor openly without consequence.
I am desperately pleading for an answer because for some reason there is a group of folks on this godforsaken website that can't help themselves from doing so and it's driving me absolutely mad.
Can we please just acknowledge a criticism or statement of fact about the CCP? Is that allowed?
Considering how far America has gotten backdooring the iPhone, it would not surprise me if China had far more control than we thought.
Pretty much nobody on this site (besides particular corporate sycophants) will deny that the US has nightmare-inducing surveillance capabilities. It's not hypocritical to call-out and identify another authoritarian overreach in another country that also threatens it's citizens.
This isn't a slight against Chinese citizens or American citizens, for that matter. We know exactly who to blame - Google, Apple and Microsoft for rolling over when governments asked them to get backdoored. This started a privacy-shattering precedent that undermined trust even further than ever before, but now we accept it and readily spread it to our family in the form of a smartphone. Look at how easily all of us were fooled.
Promote software freedom. Get people off proprietary shitware and bugged hardware. That's what matters to me, and any government that better enables me to do that earns my respect.
Ah, you're talking about Windows' UI. I was wondering where I could see screenshots of HarmonyOS. But yeah Windows 10/11's "Settings" is a mix of mobile-esque UI and the old-school Windows 7 (or XP?) control panel screens. I'd hate to be working on it, the PM's must've said everything needs to be reworked but they didn't give the UI/UX designers and developers the time to do so before "We've got to ship! Besides, we do continous delivery now, if we don't finish it, it can wait until the next release!".
Interestingly, I'd be curious how much telemetry an OS made under the Xi regime would have, at least in China. From an article [1] (on HN yesterday: [2]), when police visited a teen and told him he uploaded "anti government" videos:
> “That’s ridiculous,” Vincent said. “I have never browsed such videos, not to mention posted them in the Internet. You must be joking.”
> “Maybe you didn’t post it by yourself,” the policeman said. “But the app may back up the video automatically.”
> Vincent admitted that once, in a WeChat group, he had come across a terrorist video. The police instructed him to get his I.D. card and accompany them to the station. After they arrived, they entered a room labelled “Cybersecurity Police,” where Vincent was impressed by the officers’ politeness. (“It’s not scary at all, no handcuffs and no cage.”) The police informed him that they had found a host of sensitive and banned material on his cloud storage:
> “But how interesting it is!” the policeman said. “They sent pornographic videos, traffic accident videos, [breaking news] videos, and funny videos.”
> “Yes,” he said helplessly, “so I am innocent.”
> “Yes, we believe you,” the policeman said. “But you have to [sign] the record because it is the fact that you posted the terrorism video in the Internet, which is illegal.”
[1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/04/08/how-chinese-st... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39923662
The rest of your comment is pretty irrelevant to this OS if I’ll be honest. It’s all about cloud storage and uploads, all activity unrelated to the local OS.
https://i.imgur.com/2Od5WIJ.png
Can't even get all the windows to the same light/dark mode let alone have a unified look of components. Variety of title bars, different checkboxes, different fonts, colours even the way window navigation works differs in jarring ways within areas like control panel (sometimes opens new window, sometimes uses current, sometimes current but with sublevel logic).
Maybe I'm just sensitive to this sort of thing, but unified is certainly not a word I'd apply.
I used to be able to have System settings and Windows Update open at the same time. (Not the best but something like this bugged me recently). Now I can’t?!?
Can’t even flip back and forth (without triggering rescan of windows updates).
Maybe Windows 12 will just be a touch enabled DOSSHELL.EXE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonious_Society
In the west you "promote hate" or "spread misinfo" or "are a Russian agent"; in China you "disturb the harmony". All ways to silence dissent if you ask me.
The idea of "Harmony" is strongly connected to collectivist ideology. In the west, mainstream political parties tend to embody particular aspects of collectivism, while parties that completely embrace or reject it are relegated to the fringe (eg. Communist or Libertarian parties). In the US, the right-wing tends to be highly collectivist when it comes to the military/law enforcement (eg. "Support our troops"), religious practice, and national identity (eg. "Patriots") while the left-wing tends to be more collectivist when it comes to government programs and policy (eg. Universal Healthcare).
Wrt my own political-economic convictions, im a socialist far more left than "typical left wing american", which are not socialist (so not actually "left" of anything) and this mere right wingers in disguise imho. Im not from the US btw.
Has China Lost Its Taste for the iPhone?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39815330
Just don’t be surprised when China’s public and private enterprises make strides to curb their dependence on Western hardware and software. Don’t be surprised when they catch up quickly like they have in so many industries.
“China will never make globally competitive cars”
“China will never be able to make its own heavy industry products like jets and trains”
“China will never be able design its own chips”
“China can’t write good software”
Don’t underestimate your rival.
There's some good reasons behind that and I have a feeling they are discovering some of those paradox at the moment.
Even if I go with your new goal posts that in itself a dubious…for example, Dubai’s population is over 80% expatriates. Seems like people want to live there.
Also developed seems for you a very low bar then? Russia is a very poor country,not very developed.
Russia has an HDI of >.800 which is classified as “very high.” This number is higher than China, India, and Brazil.
People in Russia generally aren’t lacking access to improved sanitation.
Russia has compulsory education and a full literacy rate.
Don’t forget that this is a country that has been industrialized for a long time. This is a country among a very short list that can do things like get rockets into space and build jet aircraft engines. Even manufacturing powerhouse China has to import engines and avionics for its C919 aircraft. The Tu-214 uses Russian avionics and engines.
Russia or Turkey wouldn’t be my choice of place to live but they are developed.
The UAE is probably the closest one from your list but you'd have to basically ignore the large Indian diaspora which isn't treated very well to make it fit.
But in terms of "red oceans", I don't really see China having any special advantages over the already heavy competition beyond manafacturing, after all they never did make a globally competitive ICE car, it was through leapfrogging with EVs that they succeeded. If we talk about OS here, domestically they can do whatever, but I don't see why it wouldn't just be another competitor in a long list of competitors.
By the way, Chinese companies own multiple Western ICE car manufacturers. Those manufacturers (Volvo, Lotus, Polestar) are transitioning to EVs or only make EVs anyway.
Here’s an example on the software side: what happens if the Chinese smartphone players drop Android? Let’s say Xiaomi and Huawei now only come with a Chinese OS which can run Android apps as a stopgap, replacing Google Play with their own App Store. Those two brands represent 20% of European cell phone marketshare.
Now imagine this Chinese OS gives Samsung a better arrangement than Google. Overnight, Google is basically out of the picture.
That’s right, they only have to convince one phone manufacturer who already depends on a third party company for their OS to switch, and the instant they do so they win over more than half of the European smartphone market.
https://gs.statcounter.com/vendor-market-share/mobile/europe