Ask HN: Where are all the touch-based art forms?

22 points by joegibbs ↗ HN
For every major sense but touch there's a major form of art.

For vision, our most dominant sense, there is literature, painting, sculpture and film.

For hearing there is music.

For smell there is perfumery.

For taste there are the culinary arts.

Touch seems like the odd one out - it's playing second fiddle to taste in food, and to appearance in sculpture and clothing. You only very rarely find some artwork where the main draw is the tactile experience. Why is this?

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Martial arts, Kamasutra, Dvorak layout, Braille display, anti-fake measures on banknotes.

Sculpture is underpreciated by you, have you tried to build at least a basic brick wall? This process involves almost no sight and a lot of touch.

Likely because of social concepts of space where haptics serving as 1st fiddle pretty much requires some type/association of direct/close contact/feedback without context. Haptics playing 2nd fiddle allows for context for interpretation. aka raised dot on j & f keys of a qwert keyboard. responsiveness of keyboard keys for touch typist vs. non-touch typist.

Examples: https://www.creativeapplications.net/?s=touch

Sounds like something you might explore as an artist. Good luck.
Cause it doesn’t scale.

I mean there are a bunch of gadgets that are somewhat interesting to touch, but the real stuff would require someone to do something to you (the robotics isn’t there yet to create an experience that is both interesting and reproducible).

A bunch of contemporary artists actually focus primarily on the sense of touch. A French artist for example named Myriam Lefkovitz does pieces in the dark.

I think something like a touch-based display would be cool.

Like an array of low cost transducers (maybe there's a way to multiplex the output mechanically like we do with electronics (so only 2*sqrt(N) motors are needed), but in mechanics inertia and speed should be a more significant problem)

I 6x6 matrix of solenoids for example doesn't cost much, and you could reasonably control them individually I think?

You've also left out the other sense: proprioception.

To have art deliver such signals, I guess you'd have to like being a marionette... ;-)

Depending on your definition, there are anywhere between five (the classic) and upwards of twenty senses - e.g. is the ability to sense temperature a part of touch, or a separate sense?
These skills are greatly enhanced by your tactile abilities

Massage

Keyboard/Piano

Tactile trinkets like Rubics Cube/Figet Spinners

Pottery/Sculpture

Construction

Climbing, Obstacle Courses

Cleaning/Washing

Cooking

Lockpicking is an obvious hacker hobby! Very zen...
But it's interesting that there's no widely recognized fine art medium where physically feeling is the core communicated experience

Then again texture is half the experience of flavor in food

Touch response is pretty much entirely what sounds of pre-electronic musical instruments are, making electronic sound being simulations of touch response in a way

Fashion is also dominated by visual appeal, the uncomfortableness of women's heels for example

> But it's interesting that there's no widely recognized fine art medium where physically feeling is the core communicated experience

Because “fine art” is mostly a distinction drawn based on how distant a thing is from practical, tactile experience fornthe audience (its also why culinary arts aren't, contrary to your list, usually included), anchored in elitism that equates physical engagement as pedestrian and lower class.

If you can't put a “do not touch” sign on it, its viewed as practical art and not fine art.

Force feedback steering wheels and joysticks for games, where video games is the art form
These are the best examples yet. Consumer products held in the hand are probably at the forefront of this space. I'm baffled by how shitty the Apple Mouse is to hold. I think they didn't want to give off the appearance of a gaming mouse but that group hit the touch/ergonomics on the head.
In Italy I saw a replication of Fra Angelico's Annunciation as a sculpted relief intended for the blind.
Literature is not really art appreciated through vision. It is a mental exercise. Reading by seeing the text is just one form of uploading the text into your brain; Braille and audio are two others. The layout and appearance of the text can add to the experience, but this is mostly¹ not required except to make reading the text as relaxed and comfortable as possible.

For a blind person sculpture can surely be as engrossing as for a sighted person.

1: Notable exceptions exist; e.g., House of Leaves.

If think listening audio books is a significantly different experience than reading a book. The narrator’s voice always add interpretation to the text, no matter how neutral they try to be. A monotone voice change how you interpret a character shouting or distressed.

It might be a less intrusive interpretation of a written book than, e.g., a film adaptation. But it’s still very different from reading it.

Braille, I presume, it’s the same. Nothing interpreting the words except your own mind.

Well . . . maybe literature began orally but was experienced through some kind of group "individual imagination."

And maybe today it's transmitted (when not by computer) in dead-tree tomes but, again maybe, the transmission is not the thing. Maybe the play is the thing. Or the story is. Whatever.

For blind people, non-sequential events and non-serial stories exist. In fact, just like unfortunately distractedly-sighted people, that's most of real life. I realize seeing all sorts of ADHD stimuli might lead you to think you're "more aware," but everyone has an ability to process reality, which happens in real time simultaneously in many places at once.

Slime is pretty popular as a touch based art form. Same with fidget toys.
as a dedicated potter, I'm quite offended; although I'd refer to what I do as craft, rather than art, as I'm not trying to convey any particular idea through my pots, other than say, "this is a nice bowl"...

unfortunately, unlike a drawing, it is hard to share awesome pots in the way they are meant to be appreciated, you do need to pick them up and see how they sound and feel... this wouldn't work out well in a museum

Offended by the question? Why? I’m sure you’re joking a little, but the question isn’t well formulated, not worth even being mock-offended over, and anyway, it was primarily about the audience’s point of view, not the artist’s. There are lots of crafts made for touch: linens, knives and utensils, clothing, furniture, violins, etc.. And lots of art is made with the hands, like sculpture & music. Isn’t pottery’s main criteria to hold things well and secondarily to look good while holding things? Unless it’s made as a sort of musical instrument, when is the sound of a pot important for evaluating it? I can see enjoying the touch & sound of certain decorative pottery (which may means it’s intended to be non-functional visual art, to be looked at and not meant to hold anything?), but generally even if I wanted to, I can’t pick up and touch other people’s decorative pottery or handle museum pottery unless explicitly invited. So yeah, if sound & feel is the intent, I can see it being quite difficult to share that.
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The way clothing feels is a large part of the experience. So arguably fashion is not just vision, but also touch.

Also, 4D theatres where they add motion, wind and water to enhance the experience.

Arguably, amusement park rides are all about messing with your sense of touch (proprioception, balance, etc)

Sports and sex.
I don't know for sports, but sex indeed. And just like any other art form, some are absolute virtuosos and some draw cheap logos and are about to be replaced by AI.
Other than competitive team sports like football, you also have figure skating and synchronized swimming. But the vast majority of sports are art.
I do pottery as a serious hobby (though, people buy my stuff), and was recently talking with a friend about how—for me—it's not really about producing art, but the personal experience of making pieces.

I'm glad people like what I make, but I do it not to say something, and rather to experience something.

https://andrewconner.com/pottery/

I recently had a conversation with a friend about that, it's a pet peeve of mine. My angle is that looking at a picture, a painting, I can have a rough idea of what it felt like to produce it (because at some point or another I draw a doodle or tried drawing). Ditto for dancing or singing. But sculpture seems different. I am separated from sculptures in two ways: first I don't have the experience of sculpting so I am not connected to the experience of creating a sculpture (what the artist experienced, granted I never can but I don't even have a rough idea) ; secondly I can't touch the piece of art, it's really rare when you are allowed to touch the sculpture or the installation and I think it's something that doesn't happen with paintings or dancing. The art of painting and dancing are more accessible to me just by watching but sculpting escapes me.

I think my feeling is that I believe I'd appreciate sculptures more if I could touch them. I don't need to touch a painting or a dancer to appreciate them. It's visual for me (and kinetic for the dancer). Sculptures are visual but I think I am missing out by not being able to touch them.

so, quickly, most pots are made of two materials, a glaze and a clay body; the sound a pot makes when you strike it is a good proxy for the fit of these two materials... if you looked into this in detail you would discover that the larger North American audience has little understanding of good vs bad ceramics which makes it difficult to sell high quality ceramics here. The asian market is much better attuned to what make a pot good vs bad
Pretty good take!

I'll add that, as someone who likes seeing the brush strokes in a painting up close, I'd enjoy being able to touch the texture of the painting (if it was allowed and this didn't damage the painting, which sadly it does).

I think something like yoga or dance would qualify.

If you’re exclusively looking for things where you can put your hands on stuff then maybe a petting zoo?

Incentives, the opportunity cost of time, and monogamous cultural influence, mostly.

Touching another person is widely considered an intimate act and most of the general mainstream today are only intimate (physically, or emotionally) with their romantic partner. Broadly speaking we've lost emotional intimacy with close friends and small groups that we've had in the past.

So with that, what is the incentive for the artist to create? He can't sell his work. He can't distribute his work. Touch-based art is highly dis-incentivized in our modern western culture.

i've never seen the word incentive used more in my life than on hacker news. Is there some famous tech talk by a programming idol that involved the word incentive that's caused it to become such a weird fixture in this community? Sure, the entire world can be reduced down to a laundry list of incentives. But that's also incredibly reductionist, generic, and boring.
I think it gets used a lot here because it’s a compact way to say “the world works in the way that it does because we have set it up to reward certain things and punish other things. This isn’t a static feature of reality, but something we are choosing as a society and can change.”

Don’t see it as reductionist, more like a callout that we’re dealing with a social feature, not some physical law.

"why do octopi have camouflaging capabilities? because of natural incentives!"

it's essentially a trite truism/platitude. you can apply it to everything and if you don't want to delve deeper, why say it.

I think that’s incorrect. octopi have camouflage because of natural selection.

Incentives are things that humans create, intentionally or unintentionally. There are the selection pressure of the human cultural world but they are the opposite of natural. They are the things we can choose to change. By calling them out, we implicitly question if we should be changing them.

It can end up being a bit pseudo-intellectual on HN (say it ain’t so!), but there is a real rhetorical context in which it makes sense to talk about incentives.

I think it’s a tendency to analyze everything as a system. Incentives are basically a pros and cons list but over an aggregate of people.

I don’t find it reductionist. Incentives don’t have to be monetary. Power, status, family, morality, societal pressures, personal satisfaction, fear, all can be incentives.

Incentives are a question of what shared experience is a driving factor for a group of people.

That doesn’t remove the nuance from individuals. Just because group X lacks incentive to do Y doesn’t mean that nobody in X does Y. It’s just less useful to speak about individuals. No one cares about why my uncle Rick did whatever, but they might care why 10% of the country is doing it.

I don't buy this explanation.

Licking and putting other people's body parts into your mouth also don't mesh well with "a monogamous culture", yet taste is a major factor in art, as in cuisine.

Sculpture can be tactile. I know it's not purely tactile, but thinking of it in that way is becoming a lot more common (eg at the Louvre). And then I went to find a URL for the tactile dome at the Exploratorium in San Francisco (https://www.exploratorium.edu/visit/tactile-dome) and it turns out there are lots of tactile galleries now:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=tactile+gallery&t=fpas&ia=web

Yeah it's probably worth mentioning that many historical sculptures were meant to be touched, not simply looked at in a protected gallery.
In the modern era, this is likely because touch doesn't scale. Think about it: we are all using devices which can replicate sound and visuals. Taste doesn't scale via electronic devices, but restaurants and home cooking ingredients are extremely commoditized and widespread. Visuals of food also are extremely popular – think of all the cooking YouTube videos out there.

Smell has perfumery, but this is a small thing compared to other art forms. Both food and perfumes also fit well into the market system and have an obvious market incentive for their propagation.

Touch-based art forms don't scale electronically (as we lack devices for implementing and sharing different touch sensations) and they don't have an obvious practical art purpose either, in the way that graphic design (for visual art) or music (for sound) does.

As a side note, I think touch is probably just as important to food as taste. Otherwise, why not just eat flavored mush?

The key word you want to look for on this is haptic art. Here's a good post about this topic, too:

https://ivanisakov.medium.com/haptic-art-7f55e995c576

Edit: I was looking into this more and came across an essay by Johann Herder, which is probably of interest:

http://csmt.uchicago.edu/annotations/herder.htm

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25622078

Part One lays out the foundation for Herder’s argument for the virtues of sculpture by distinguishing between seeing and touching. He recounts several stories of blind people who did not understand the concept of seeing to point out the fact that we see sculpture as three dimensional only because we have grown up using our senses of touch and of sight in tandem. Were it not for touch, vision would merely be a field of colors and shapes. In this distinction we find a theme common to media theory, the problem of distinguishing the ways we interact with our surroundings, while at the same time recognizing their interdependence. While Herder realizes that our understanding of sight as forms depends on our sense of touch, he would have us define our understanding of forms only through touch and forget about sight. For him, since the essence of sculpture is "beautiful form and beautiful shape," and a "physically present, tangible truth," (p. 40) to understand it only as a vision is a profanation, a grave underestimation of its potential.