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Ask HN: Doing $16k MRR. How do I deal with cease and desist?

9 points by hgezim ↗ HN
Last year, I started working on a children's book generation product using AI for illustrations. In the process, I discovered Midjourney and I was blown away by the quality.

I then tried to find their API so I could use it in my product. Google showed no results. I thought I was Googling wrong.

It turns out, Midjourney didn't have an API

<insert pivot gif from Friends>

Of course, I set out to build it. I created a POC and posted it on the Midjourney subreddit[1]. That's when I discovered that Midjourney's ToS specified that user's aren't allowed automated access

Too late, I had already built it and had a lot of email signups from people wanting it.

The initial idea was to have a bunch of Midjourney accounts and let people generate images using my accounts. Now that was a no go since I'd be in violation of their ToS. To sidestep the issue, I decide to let the end users take the risk. You want API access, you provide your Midjourney account and we'll do the rest.

At first I launched a self-hosted version that people would pay once and then use it on their on hardware. This proved too cumbersome to setup, so I launched the cloud version. Mind you, it took me months to learn this lesson.

To say it's been going great is an understatement.

I've been building side projects since 2014, starting with HNdigest (which I exited for a whopping $2k ). The farthest I got was $3,000 MRR in 2019 which was a huge success. Now, ImagineAPI.dev is doing $16k MRR

Fast forward to a few days ago. I check my email and see that Midjourney sent me a cease and desist. They had two issues: ToS Violation[2] and Trademark Infringement[3].

I want to be clear, I've never intended to harm Midjourney. Every image generating with ImagineAPI.dev has been paid for — we don't allow users to generate free images using Midjourney's relaxed mode. There are alternative API products that do that and we get people asking all the time. However, I wanted Midjourney to benefit from us being around; not to be harmed.

However, I certainly don't intend to roll over and kill my product.

We're not in violation of the ToS as we don't have any Midjourney accounts. I've updated marketing assets to specify that we're an "(unofficial) Midjourney API". What else should I do?

What should I respond to their legal counsel with?

Anyone have experience with this type of threat in the past? How did you handle it?

P.S.: My legal entity is based in Canada. FWIW.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/midjourney/comments/11betr7/i_created_an_unofficial_api_for_midjourney/ [2] https://share.cleanshot.com/NPXjkk3c [3] https://share.cleanshot.com/94ZvY4q4 https://share.cleanshot.com/j47jnx6N

23 comments

[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 61.2 ms ] thread
minimaxir
This is "get a lawyer" territory.
hgezim
lol .. I should’ve posted this autocomplete answer to start with
Buttons840
Either comply with the cease and desist or talk to a lawyer.

I wouldn't have high hopes if I were you, I'm not a lawyer, but I think you have a weak legal position. An actual lawyer might tell you otherwise.

hgezim
Thanks! Complying means what, to you?
0xdeadbeefbabe
I wonder if they'd like a percentage of the profit now and in the future? Your reaction to the C&D shows some resilience, which is nice to see.
hgezim
They’re huge. I’m sure their toilet paper rolls are make of $16k bills

I used to worry that the biggest threat was them releasing an API.

I’ve since learned that they won’t do that because they charge monthly fees to their customers and when a customer doesn’t use their credits, the credits don’t roll over and Midjourney pockets the cash.

Pay per use is bad for their business model.

0xdeadbeefbabe
Based on your growth rate they'll have more toilet paper in the future though. It would be interesting to try to discover a way to coexist, and I wonder if everyone at Midjourney hates you with equal passion or if some are sympathetic or even see value.
hgezim
I was really hoping to build out an amazing API product and when time came where they want to release one it would make more sense to acquire us. Alas.
ahazred8ta
Being a wise and thoughtful business owner, you already ran this concept by your own corporate attorney to get a written legal opinion before circumventing their TOS, right? ... No??

IMHO, stop calling yourself a Midjourney API of any kind and stop providing a service that uses Midjourney as a backend. You are not authorized to run Midjourney jobs using other people's account credentials; that's the TOS violation. Your lawyer will explain this to you.

hgezim
Yup, sure did. Just like I check with HR when I pass notes to my self on Slack where I'm the only member
letsSpy
I don't think that you can force a private company to provide you services... wish I am wrong.
hgezim
I’m not forcing them to provide me a service at all. I’m not using their service. My customers happen to also be their customers.
ahazred8ta
> I’m not using their service.

You're not scraping Mj results generated with other people's credentials? You're going to have fun convincing a judge of that.

philsquared_
A c&d is a nice way of asking you to shutdown before they sue you. Most companies will not bother unless they think they have a case against you. Your choices are shut down or stay up and hire a lawyer to defend you in the coming case against you. Even if they do not have a strong case you will end up being in court a while. Keep in mind you have a source of income now but what may happen is they sue you then release their own api and cut your revenue at the same time. It's risky to build products on other peoples businesses especially if they dont want you to. I am not just talking out my ass. I was in the same situation on one of my projects and chose to shut down when I saw others going through lawsuits. At the very least you need to speak to a lawyer and make sure you can win a case.

In this specific instance you are providing a product that interfaces with their product. Your product allowing breaking TOS is likely grounds for their lawsuit. For similar cases look up bot manufacturers in World of Warcraft vs Blizzard. They won all their cases by saying the code that is in the ram is their property.

Edit: I also wanted to add that even if you are somehow not against their tos right now they can always update their tos to not allow your type of service..

hgezim
Now this is what I’m here for!

Thanks so much for taking the time to write this

Yeah if they do release an API I’m totally done. I honestly thought I’d have 3-6 months before they did but that’s not the case.

Do you see a world where I might be able to reconcile and have a positive outcome?

xenospn
Yes. Build your own midjourney and provide api access to it.
racional
We're not in violation of the ToS

Yes you are, by your own admission just a few lines above, and a quick glance at the ToS itself. Your "intent" doesn't matter. By using the service, you must comply with the ToS, full stop (unless it is clearly void by existing law, which as your lawyers will immediately tell you if you choose to waste money on them, it isn't in this case).

toldyouso2022
How is he violating the tos? His client is making requests to a server, the server is replying and his client is elaborating the requests how it wants.

If midjourney doesn't like the requests they should stop replying, maybe banning (or suing) the users that use the client.

If his stuff is suing-worthy then stuff like adblockers, download managers, etc become suing-worthy too, is this what we want now?

toldyouso2022
From what I gathered from your service description it doesn't make sense to me that yu provide a service and they try to sue you If anything they should sue, aka block, the accounts of your users. It's them that are violating the tos, not you. It's weird replies on hn have been so cold towards you, if you want the internet defense force coming to your rescue I think you have to explain better why you are not violating the tos (reasonable tos). Your service is no different from youtube-dl and many other services from what I understand, right?

Also layout of your post is screwed up on mobile, I yhink it made you lost attention from mobile users which are many I guess

hgezim
Oh interesting. And yes YouTube-dl is a good comparison.

To be clear, I’ve had a few accounts on Midjourney used mostly for testing and demo purposes. At the moment I don’t have any Midjourney account hence TOS violation doesn’t apply.

toldyouso2022
I think you can make midjourney stop by using social media pressure, but you need to improve communications. For example don't start with "I'm making 16k a month" because most will think you can afford a lawyer.

Also, I repeat, consider explaining better what you do and what exactly are they accusing you of doing wrong and why they are wrong in doing so.

Also now that I see the screenshots, the way you phrased things it did look like you were the official midjourney api, so the trademark violation is there for sure.