Ask HN: Why do you use Apple products?
As a Linux user of four years who only recently got a Mac Mini for development purposes, and an anti-Apple advocate of even longer, I sometimes wonder at the number of tech people I see on HN, Twitter, etc. who are using Apple products (especially Macs) as daily-drivers. While I'm a firm believer in using what works best for you, my experience with Apple vs. non-Apple so far as left me convinced that buying Apple is a waste of money. Therefore, to try to understand what makes pepole use Apple products, I've created a survey[0]. I'd be thrilled if you took a few minutes to fill it out; if I get enough responses, I hope to write a blog post that looks at the data and makes some observations.
If you own an Apple product, have been assigned one via work, or otherwise use Apple products, you are welcome to fill out this form.
[0]: https://forms.gle/CVcWNRiEoM8Cdn5U8
48 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 53.5 ms ] threadI am myself a Linux user and using a Mac makes me appreciate Linux so much more. It could be the #1 reason I want to start my own business so I don't have to use a Mac anymore.
Having cmd and ctrl distinct keys is great in a terminal though, no more conflict between "copy" and "kill".
Also you should not "hate" stuff like this, just accept that there are differences between all OSes, they’re tools. There’s tons of things that annoy me in tools I use (including macOS which I still use voluntarily) but it’s just easier to embrace it and use it as intended that trying to mold it in something it’s not.
Same with iPhones: is there any Android phone that approaches the lifespan of the iPhone?
Both devices should be brand new and supported with updates and warranty. I don’t want a used ThinkPad.
Plenty. Framework, Lenovo, Asus in whatever flavor you like. Generally Thinkpad Carbon is comparable to Macbook pro. Modern Linux Distros work quite well out of the box. Manjaro is super popular for gaming as it has the best performance, and you usually don't even have to fuck with graphics drivers as it installs them for you.
The only aspect that Apple is winning at is battery life for equivalent performance level for common tasks. That being said, I personally never found battery life on any device to be an issue unless you are just hyper specific about how you use a laptop when traveling. For my last job, I had to run CAD, so I used an Ideapad Gaming laptop with discrete graphics card, and with a backpack with an integrated power bank. I think I managed to run out of power once, but that was because I spent a 3 hour flight gaming nonstop, and it was on a plane that didn't have charging ports. The rest of the time I was either near a charger or using the power bank.
>Same with iPhones: is there any Android phone that approaches the lifespan of the iPhone?
Within the past 4 years or so, Android has consistently outlived Apple. Coworker still kicking around a Pixel 5, paid a guy to replace the battery and its works for him.
Apple is the one that lost the suit against degrading old phones performance on purpose. People seem to forget that.
If we go by anecdotes then I use an iPhone 11 (original battery 95%) released a year earlier than the Pixel 5 so there is that.
The app updates works fine.
I’ve found the quality of ThinkPad X1 machines to be terrible in the last few years to the point where colleagues who would normally have one switched to Dell laptops of dubious quality instead because they had support for Linux and came preinstalled.
How old is a Pixel 5? I’m surprised it’s still getting updates from Google.
Its easy enough to pick one up on ebay for like $200 from a few years ago, get an ssd and max ram from Amazon, and install bunsenlab linux to test drive it.
Pixel 5 no longer gets updates from Google, and it doesn't really need it. All the app updates work fine tho.
If you look at https://dell.com/linux you can see the options for a Linux machine with more than 16gb of RAM drop off pretty quickly. I don't think Lenovo sells machines preinstalled with Linux anymore. Does Framework offer those?
Again, not looking for used computers... let me know where I can buy a dozen machines with Linux that don't suck and support from the vendor.
And yeah, a phone without security updates is a poor choice comparison against an iPhone when devices from 4 years earlier are still getting updates from Apple.
What is going on mentally is that you chose a product based on something else than objective metrics (usually vanity), however for whatever reason it seems shameful to admit that to yourself, so instead what you do is that you implicitly assume that all of the properties of that object is good, and that anything that doesn't have that is bad.
This is a common human bias btw, nothing wrong with that. But you should be aware of this. Because , the annoying part of it, and arguably self destructive, is when you start making crazy incorrect objective statements about the world based on those biases like "the keyboards and trackpads on a lot of the non-Apple laptops out there are very bad".
Instead, you should say "I just really like the feeling of using an Apple product, and Im ok with paying more for that even I don't get any objective advantage, and I don't care enough to explore switching cause it works for me".
Every time this comes up people suggest everything except the thing I’m looking for.
System76 desktops aren’t bad, I used one daily for several years. They’re also in the same price or higher as the MacBook Pro I replaced it with.
When I go to use my laptop these days, the last thing I want to do is deal with system admin, I just want to work or play.
I have things to do. Diagnosing driver/chipset compatibility problems doesn’t help me get those things done, so back to macOS I went.
Furthermore, Win 11 gets a very bad wrap unfairly these days. At home on my desktop, I use Win 11 Pro with WSL2 and it works amazingly well for anything, including ML training. Just run this https://github.com/Raphire/Win11Debloat.
About end users.
Long answer: when you live and work as a developer long enough, you don’t need long answers anymore.
However, I prefer (Windows) PC's because they are like manual transmission: I have more control. Of course, PC's seem to be more cost-effective (for a personal machine for someone who likes tinkering with computers). There seem to be more software options, too. There are a few MacOS programs I wish I could use though, like: TaskPaper and nvAlt.
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One of my friends wanted to use Linux for work, but had to use MacOS because it was impossible to get audio/video working for video chat. (I heard Linux audio/video support has gotten better recently.)
Apple products "just working" might be another reason they are popular tech worker daily drivers (although I've heard it's gone downhill recently). The extra cost may be justified by the time saved not having to fiddle with your laptop to get it working.
A tech worker probably costs more than $100/hr, so you would reach positive ROI within a few hours of not messing with the laptop.
When I start coding again, the old hardware will get Linux and OpenBSD for networking. The old MacBook Air still works after over 14 years (?) and maybe the Mac cube as well, but I am not a history buff.
I just loaded Trunk Notes, a 14 year old Wiki app, onto the brand new phone, and it runs.
I have versions of Unix shell and Jupyter Notebooks running on iOS, FWIW, no sideloading or jailbreak needed.
I keep old hardware that still runs. They do the basics that I got them for: music scores and lots and lots of book and article reading. And I haven't read them all yet.
On the mac end: Supposedly, 32 bit apps stopped running post Mojave.
No problem for old hardware that won't go past Mojave anyway, and I recommended sticking with Mojave to a friend who has 32-bit apps.
Older mac apps I bought all are downloadable from the app store if they show in the app store under my purchases.
And perhaps some are missing, if the apps shown have all been updated to run post-Mojave. I am actually trying to simplify things. (not easy for me)
On the ios side of the mac app store, a lot of apps from 2013 and before are not downloadable. So, no Wild Berries and Herbs app for me.
At least on a mac you can copy apps from the /Applications directory and sneakernet them. It seems that you need a third-party app to extract ios apps via a cable. Not going there.
As others stated, these things just do what they claim to do on the tin. If you want to tinker, then futz around with Linux. If you don’t want to worry about your OS too much, a Mac will do fine for most use cases.
I love linux and I like it for software development in the business I am operating in. I just don't have the time to screw around trying to get something working when my Mac just does it better and faster and with less stress.
I was raised in a house where we were told Apple was an inferior computer and PCs were the only way to go. Not far from your current view. Eventually I grew up and gave them a chance out of boredom and frustration, and I liked them more than Windows or Linux at the time (this was back in 2003). My dad, who raised me to hate Apple, is now using 100% Apple products after he actually saw them and how they work first hand, and got burned several times by PCs. I never thought I’d see the day.
Use what you like, let other people use what they like. If you’re curious, learn about it, but do it with an open mind. I don’t feel like you’re doing that currently.
For me, during those early years, it was exiting to see Apple go from an extreme underdog position and fight its way back. It seemed like every year there was a big OS release that brought a ton of features that changed the way I used the system (Spotlight, QuickLook, etc), something I never experienced at the same level with Windows or Linux. The way different devices worked together was also something I hadn’t before experienced at that level. The iPod syncing with iTunes. Using iSync to get my contracts on my flip phone. It was all seamless. When the iPhone came out, that’s all went a step further and it has made my life much easier. Playing sys admin for my personal computer used to be a bit of a hobby, and the Mac allowed me to do other things, which was really nice as I entered the industry, since I don’t want to play sys admin in my free time anymore.
And while it may sound a bit ridiculous to an anti-Apple advocate, and I risk sounded like a fanboy, Apple (more specifically Jony Ive and Steve Jobs) changed the way I look at many things in the world and how I evaluate problems. Before I went down the Apple rabbit hole I always used to think about what else I can do or have. I had a Thinkpad with a couple USB hubs and every port was full and I wanted more. When I’d get a gift card I’d look for how many things I could get, it didn’t really matter what I wanted or needed, it was about quantity. When I got the Mac, all my stuff didn’t work with it and I had to be more selective… and it was ok. I realized I didn’t need all that stuff and I could be happy by wanting less, and that 1 great thing is better than a lot of not so great things. Then in one of Jony Ive’s videos for a product release he said something to the effect of, “there is nothing we can take away to make it any better.” This blew my mind. My whole life I believed making something better was an additive process. That one line flipped my world upside down, addition through subtraction. So many times at work, even today, when a problem comes up and everyone is looking for what they can add to fix it, I’m looking for what to remove that eliminates the problem all together. This makes problems go away and processes more simple, instead of adding complexity until things collapse. I have Apple to thank for this shift in thinking and will be forever grateful for that. Later I found the quote, “perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away,” which sums it up nicely. You can call some of this a kind of Apple Stockholm syndrome if you wish, but I learned a lesson some people spend a lifetime trying to learn, that it’s easier to achieve happiness by wanting less than by trying to obtain the world.
All that said, if you drop a Windows or Linux system in front of me, I can still use them and get my job done without a problem. I just like my workflow better on a Mac.
This even extended to file shortcuts: in the Finder I could "Create Shortcut" to a file on a remote AppleTalk file server. I could put that shortcut on a floppy by dragging its icon to the floppy icon. Eject the floppy, hand that to someone, who could go back to their office on the other side of campus, insert the floppy, open the Shortcut file, and the Mac would get the file from the file server, download it, and get to work.
If I needed to move the file on the file server to a new location for a whatever reason, any shortcuts to the file would still work.
These days, we just do this in seconds with a web link. But back then, compared to NDIS networking on DOS-based clients, it was a game-changer.
The PC quickly developed sophisticated networking by throwing money at the servers. Prices could get way up there, particularly when you factored in licenses for each client that could connect.
Although the Macs were more expensive than single user desktop PCs, the Mac ad-hoc, peer networking was just built into the base system.
I could go on about how this tended to play out in many different areas of functionality. Adding a new video card? Turn off Mac. Insert card. Turn on Mac. Done.
Yes, we would argue endlessly about the devilish details that we dealt with on a daily basis. And again, as the corporate networks continued to mature, the Mac as a client was often sidelined.
Mac replaced by cheaper desktop PCs and very expensive network right about the time that the web development took off and disrupted the industry again.
Classic Mac cratered, just to be replaced by my favorite system of all time, the same attempt at whole-system design on top of a mass-market UNIX.
I had more fun productive work building and supporting these network systems. When Windows NT shipped with the modern Win95 GUI toolkit, NT's deep support of every network protocol, and device drivers for just about every x86 bit of hardware, and NT's very strong kernel implementation was made to work. Unified security model. Group Policies. Active Directory wiped out my little toy networks.
Books were written. All that history is now but a distant legend, lost to the mists of the Y2K bug that destroyed human civilization. Now that we seem to be winning against the Terminators and H-Ks, we can perhaps entertain the dream that our children's children will someday step out into the light of a brand new day, the GNU Manifesto in one hand, and in the other, John Perry Barlow's writ of sovereignty for all data, everywhere, forever free.
Any time I spend futzing with my tools or solving incompatibilities amounts to unbillable hours.
I manage a bunch of Linux cloud servers. With no GUI or device driver issues Linux works great. I have used Unix since it came out (yes, that old) so it isn't as if I don't get the command line or can't figure things out. But to make a living I need a car that starts every morning, not a garage project.
I used Windows and Android for years but eventually abandoned those platforms because of malware and cross-vendor issues that I don't get with Apple. And my Apple hardware almost never breaks down -- I had a MacBook Air blow up once because of a bad power outlet in Thailand, but other than that it all just reliably works.
One question asked if I’ve tried to switch away from Apple. It’s the other way round. I used Linux (and Windows) for years before I switched to Mac. Haven’t looked back.
Others may have different preferences, I don’t mind that.
All my personal business is conducted on Linux. I use the Tuxedo Computers AMD laptop.
Anyway, IMHO you should simply accept that a lot of people simply have better things to do in life than fine tuning and managing computers. That's why no one of those care about the customisation options of Linux or Android. In fact, most people don't like computers and Apple is the best company out there that manages to make computers that don't feel like computers but tools to achieve your greater objectives.
Cooks may appreciate good knives but their main objective is to make great food and no good cook will be obsessing with the knives more than with the food they cook. They will be most happy with having one reliable knife that cuts good enough than having a set of knives perfectly tuned for every ingredient.
You can see the same pattern in photography, people who are good at taking good photos don't obsess over the photography gear as much as photo gadget nerds who never take good photos and writers don't obsess over pens as much as pen enthusiast.
Take « How loyal do you consider yourself to be to the Apple brand? », why are there 2 answers saying "I’m fine with others using non-Apple products"? You’re projecting your childish flame war on everyone. Why can’t I answer "I prefer using Apple products but I’m fine if I have to use something else"? Of course I don’t care what other people use, why would I?
On a personal note, my parents ran a Windows consulting/repair business when I was a kid. The sheer abundance and frequency of problems with Windows pretty much funded my childhood, so I grew up with a very negative view of everything to do with Windows and Microsoft. I imagine that people who remember the “old” Microsoft of the 90s also have a similar view, before Gates went on his PR campaign and they finally appointed a competent successor in Nadella.
Ergo I have been using Macs since my early 20s, and for the most part I’ve been happy with them. Although I do think they’ve lost a bit of their magic since Jobs died.
Linux seems interesting and I’d like to set up a cyberdeck running it at some point, but I simply don’t have the time or inclination to do so right now. Sometimes you just need your tools to work.
Nothing I've seen about modern Windows makes me at all inclined to use it (my one experience actually attempting to use it in the last decade to test something was extremely painful, though it was in a VM, so maybe it just doesn't really work on VMs) and I'm extremely glad to have missed out on the whole Wayland debate on the Linux side.