I'm going to give it an honest unbiased try over the weekend on a desktop touch screen Sony I have lying around. Im hoping that it's better than the consumer preview.
My 5 year old Sony ultraportable still runs well with Windows 8, but have to move on. Might get a Windows RT tablet(maybe Nokia's) along with it, but I barely use the HP Touchpad with Android I have, so that's there.
The middle sentence is the only part that makes any sense to me, and even then, not really. You're implying that you're choosing the platform you're going to support? Good luck choosing a single one to support and being successful. Further, if you think that Windows desktop mode is going anywhere, see my other post, and you might want to check the stats for how many apps are already in the just-released Windows 8 RC Store.
I don't understand what you're saying, at all. For the next 10 years? Are you honestly telling me that you're using Windows XP currently? Or a Palm Pilot?
I'm choosing the platform I'm going to bet my paycheque on for the next 10 years.
I have no problem with Metro (I use a Windows Phone and rather like it) and I know the Windows desktop is not going away but the deep cloud integration and training cost is what worries me. It's severing corporate interest if it's not un-configurable and is going to require retraining. There are cheaper solutions now.
My father did fine from ARM/RISCOS in the 80s, I did fine from UNIX in the 90s and Microsoft in the 00s. There is definitely a 10 year cycle and it's about to roll over.
>It's severing corporate interest if it's not un-configurable and is going to require retraining.
There are no changes to domain/group policies whatsoever and if you don't enable Skydrive, the "cloud" features of Windows 8 have no impact on the end user experience. I've seen this criticism all over the place and I don't buy it.
The training I can understand. The Start Menu has been a staple for a very long time. It will be awkward for users to adjust to a different "start screen" instead of a "menu", but I don't see it being a big hurdle at all.
Any other comments I might make run the risk of repeating the sentiments I've expressed elsewhere. People really need to start thinking about Metro Apps as "complementary to desktop Windows" instead of "OMG MS abandons Windows and Corporate support".
I guess you might be in different work than what I perceive to be the normal crowd of HN who would likely be wanting or needing to support applications on every major platform. If you are doing managed corporate environments, I can understand the need to "pick one", but it's not like the alternatives to Windows have superior corporate control/configuration.
I hate the fact that there is a windows store. I know this is the bandwagon everyone appears to be jumping on, but I still hate the idea that software we buy on computers we own is going through a gatekeeper.
They provide the convenience of everything in one place, ratings/reviews, one click, quick download, auto update etc. And yes they have DRM but exactly how is that different from me having to enter a license code for apps bought elsewhere ?
As a linux user with an Android phone and a healthy fear of Microsoft, I think the Windows Store is probably the best thing in the world for end-user computing coming out of Microsoft today. They are catching up to the package managers that Linux users have taken for granted over the last couple decades. They are catching up to the centralized update system and offering improved security.
I haven't owned a Microsoft product in many years, but the store is, to me, one of the best moves they've made...like, ever. Not sure what possible disadvantage there is to having it.
If it were just a package manager then I would be fine. However this is like a linux distro saying that if any program wants to use X then it will need to be installed via the package manager and must be approved by their rules, and by the way you can't install 3rd party apps that compete with our apps.
"Related to this second point is information I’ve received that Microsoft has been furiously ripping out legacy code in Windows 8 that would have enabled third parties to bring back the Start button, Start Menu, and other software bits that could have made this new OS look and work like its predecessor. In fact, I’ve seen that several well-known UI hacks that worked fine with the Windows 8 Consumer Preview are no longer functional in the coming Release Preview. And those with hopes that Microsoft would allow businesses, at least, to boot directly to the desktop should prepare for disappointment. That feature not only isn’t happening, it’s being removed from Windows Server 12 (Windows 8’s stable mate) as well."
Ah, great then, this will be even more epic fail than Vista. No Start menu, ridiculous 'store' instead of freedom of installing everything, new antitrust process vs goverment because of attempt to make Firefox and Chrome second class citizens and require BIOS vendors to reject unsigned bootloaders of Linux and FreeBSD.
This may be the last OS they release ever, isn't it?
It is the server change that really pounds home how completely screwed up Microsoft is now. They're so committed to their tablet operating system -- so desperate to bet the entire company on it -- that they're forcing it on their server operating system. It really trumps even my worst expectations of Microsoft's Apple-initiated insantiy.
Not sure if joking...however, yes, in Windows Server land a good amount of administration is done with a GUI. Further such a response to the change from the Start GUI to the Metro GUI (not "from a Start GUI to a command line only system") is so bizarrely misplaced that I again have to assume joke.
I was half joking. I know that Windows Servers have GUI for administration. But I don't get why people are so attached to the start button. In the ~year that I have been using Windows I don't think I have ever clicked there with the mouse. You have a keyboard with a start button on it don't you?
Beyond that I think the Metro UI is way more suited for administration tasks than the 'Start' UI. But we'll find that out won't we?
You have a keyboard with a start button on it don't you?
That activates the start menu, which no longer exists in Metro. It has nothing to do with the Start button itself not existing as a little circle in the lower left -- it's that the whole launcher / hierarchical list no longer exists.
Microsoft is a usability disaster. They have gone through so many aborted abandoned half-efforts that this adds another cluster-f to the mess. But never all the way (Metro most certainly isn't. The half-baked shell is missing the enormous bulk of core functionality that requires you to delve through the history of abandoned prior efforts. And in Windows 2015 you'll have to fall back to the Metro interface to do the small amount they implement in it), so you'll still have the control panels and the MMC consoles and the managed consoles in the server manager and the metro consoles and the.... jesus, that company is a catastrophe, desperately trying to solidify inertia, but only turning it to jello.
Start button was there and was removed just few months back. You can go to the corner and that acts like a start button. It's close to unusable via remote desktop though.
I must say that I am a bit disappointed with the decision to include Flash in this release. Not only will it delay it's death, but it also seems pretty anticompetitive unless other companies are also allowed to release plugins for Metro-IE10.
I'm pretty sure that the flash is embedded, and that it will only run on white-listed sites, which I think defaults to the same list as the compatibility view... and its purpose is more for flash interactive sites, not necessarily video since that can be replaced by the video element
I dislike the direction Microsoft is going with this "open dialog" scheme.
"We’ve talked in depth about building Windows 8, including the features, the designs, and the background behind these. We’ve done so in over 70 posts totaling over 500 pages if printed out and 34 videos totaling over 90 minutes"
It's like, if you asked people what they wanted in a car, they would have said a faster horse.
This is going to a huge kitchen-skin, designed-by-a-committee disaster.
Other companies don't have the legacy that windows does. For windows 8 to be successful, they need the buy-in of consumers in all the various use-cases of the OS. Apple never had that legacy to deal with so the comparison isn't fair.
Determining what the general public wants is a crap shoot. the only reason we're even talking about Apple is because they got lucky a few times. What about the countless companies that were creating the future only to fizzle out for lack of interest? Microsoft can't take those sorts of risks on their core cash cows.
Yes but what happens when everyone wants different things? How can you be bold when you have to keep your foot in the past, the present and the future?
That's a good question. Microsoft's solution in the past has been to simply not try to be bold. It's worked well for them so far and it probably will for the foreseeable future. Metro UI is their attempt at being bold, but they also can't risk alienating their core users in the process. Whether or not they will accomplish this, seeing how hard they're pushing the new UI, remains to be seen. But I understand what they're trying to do.
The ribbon is collapsed by default, come on now. It's there for tablet users and I'm sure you noticed the equivalent in Ubuntu is not tablet friendly at all.
Also, nautilus is easily the worst file management utility on any platform currently, most especially the gnome3 variant. Let me know when the Favorites, you know, actually work the way they do in every other file manager (including the gnome2 variant)
I'm used to Marlin, I mean "Files" (in Elementary), and Finder's column view. The Bookmarks that most file managers have make the lack of column browsing a bit more tolerable, but it's still lacking in a great number of ways. But no, not Nautilus's.
People who talk trash about the ribbon simply have no idea how average people use their computers. There is immense value for most people by having available functions in your face. If an option is hidden, only the most adventurous users will ever find it. UIs should be functional first and pretty second.
I thought it was pretty well established that average people don't like a huge number of buttons and widgets and colors and icons shoved in their face, particularly if most of them are rarely used. People get confused and overwhelmed easily.
>It's like, if you asked people what they wanted in a car, they would have said a faster horse.
>This is going to a huge kitchen-skin, designed-by-a-committee disaster.
Err what? You're taking the PR spin at it's face value. The reality is that people have been hollering for the old Start menu and MS just went with what they think is right and the put up a few blog posts after they implemented things as they liked.
The blog posts are really explanations of what they alread designed. Look at how they started appearing only after the Beta came and not for the 2 years Windows 8 was actually being designed?
This "my desktop should be a tablet OS as well" situation is boggling my mind.
I'm an avid Apple user, and I'm not a fan of the direction Lion went, and the continued direction Mountain Lion is going. I use a notebook because I want a notebook: a keyboard for easy terminal usage and more efficient browser hunting, a mouse or touchpad for manageable selection tools, drawing, etc. I don't think I've ever pressed F4 (Launchpad, I think it's called?) on purpose, especially when Alfred or even Spotlight do the exact same thing much faster.
Windows took this in a stranger direction: let's make it two completely different experiences, but make the unifier the most difficult thing in the world to find. I haven't played with this release yet (played with the previous 8 preview), but if there's an easy switch button (probably is the Windows key), I'm all ears. Otherwise, let's move on. I'm not quite sure who they're targeting here.
The Chromebook/box announcement that came recently is, I think, the most interesting take. Seems like Google's idea was to build Ice Cream Sandwich with the desktop in mind. But here, we lose real apps. I'll tunnel and use Vim when I need to, but Sublime is too powerful for me to pass on. If I want to play Diablo 3 or Portal, forget about it. Then again, Google's looking at a completely different market than OS X or Windows 8.
No surprise it's boggling your mind if you haven't used it. If you want to stay in desktop mode, you can, with the minor exception of having a start menu that displays more stuff and takes up one monitor worth of space.
Windows key brings you to the start screen or from the start screen back to the app (or desktop) you were viewing. Winkey + D displays the desktop.
I think the reason why they force their Metro UI on people is to warm them up to the whole way it works, so that in the long run some people might even buy Windows phones.
I hope they get it right. Would love to see Windows becoming a true alternative to Android (if its not such a walled garden as crApples).
I don't get the hate towards LaunchPad. It's a totally optional feature which actually helps out most normal users. I use it because I have a ton of apps installed and sometimes I just don't remember what an infrequently used app is named. Especially true when I'm buying things from the App Store. I got a great SFTP client the other day and I have absolutely no clue what it's called. I know the icon is a forklift. Great app but if you put a gun to my head I couldn't tell you the name of it. I don't SFTP enough to have it sitting in my dock 24x7x365.
Sigh. How can this be Hacker News and folks not get the obvious strategy from Apple on OS X and iOS. The App Store and Gateway have nothing to do with any desire of Apple to penalize or restrict power users. It's ONLY purpose is to give a sense of familiarity to iOS users.
Because now, it's Apple's job to bring into the Macintosh family the 50 million iOS users who expect a device from Apple to work at all times and for a large variety of software which is vetted by Apple to be at a mouse click. No installation, no malware, no fancy configuration necessary.
It just works is migrating from iOS to OS X. Power users had better get used to it.
LOL! This is the first version of windows where I had to google how to shut down my virtual machine. I felt like a complete idiot!
Easy to use? Come on...
Every time I see it I picture my father in front of a computer running windows 8, scratching his head :))
People are going to bitch and moan about this - with good reason - forever.
My other peeve is that you can type in to Win7 search start menu for everything, but in metro start menu, you type 'sound' for example, it doesn't appear, you have to select 'settings' first.
Otherwise, love the new design, super snappy too, but that could always be the fresh install smell.
59 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 26.0 ms ] threadThis is the moment i choose my future platform.
More details here:
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/03/28/touch-hardware...
I'm personally looking for something like the Ideapad Yoga,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6jnrRRAcZc&hd=1
My 5 year old Sony ultraportable still runs well with Windows 8, but have to move on. Might get a Windows RT tablet(maybe Nokia's) along with it, but I barely use the HP Touchpad with Android I have, so that's there.
What? For life? Why choose one? And why base it on a non-final release? o_0
My mind is not finite - don't want to waste my grey matter on crap.
The release preview is good enough to make a decision and avoid the massive job shift fallout when it hits RTM.
I've been in the industry for 22 years. I can spot a turd coming miles away.
You seem to have your mind made up. Good luck.
The middle sentence is the only part that makes any sense to me, and even then, not really. You're implying that you're choosing the platform you're going to support? Good luck choosing a single one to support and being successful. Further, if you think that Windows desktop mode is going anywhere, see my other post, and you might want to check the stats for how many apps are already in the just-released Windows 8 RC Store.
I don't understand what you're saying, at all. For the next 10 years? Are you honestly telling me that you're using Windows XP currently? Or a Palm Pilot?
I'm choosing the platform I'm going to bet my paycheque on for the next 10 years.
I have no problem with Metro (I use a Windows Phone and rather like it) and I know the Windows desktop is not going away but the deep cloud integration and training cost is what worries me. It's severing corporate interest if it's not un-configurable and is going to require retraining. There are cheaper solutions now.
My father did fine from ARM/RISCOS in the 80s, I did fine from UNIX in the 90s and Microsoft in the 00s. There is definitely a 10 year cycle and it's about to roll over.
There are no changes to domain/group policies whatsoever and if you don't enable Skydrive, the "cloud" features of Windows 8 have no impact on the end user experience. I've seen this criticism all over the place and I don't buy it.
The training I can understand. The Start Menu has been a staple for a very long time. It will be awkward for users to adjust to a different "start screen" instead of a "menu", but I don't see it being a big hurdle at all.
Any other comments I might make run the risk of repeating the sentiments I've expressed elsewhere. People really need to start thinking about Metro Apps as "complementary to desktop Windows" instead of "OMG MS abandons Windows and Corporate support".
I guess you might be in different work than what I perceive to be the normal crowd of HN who would likely be wanting or needing to support applications on every major platform. If you are doing managed corporate environments, I can understand the need to "pick one", but it's not like the alternatives to Windows have superior corporate control/configuration.
They provide the convenience of everything in one place, ratings/reviews, one click, quick download, auto update etc. And yes they have DRM but exactly how is that different from me having to enter a license code for apps bought elsewhere ?
I haven't owned a Microsoft product in many years, but the store is, to me, one of the best moves they've made...like, ever. Not sure what possible disadvantage there is to having it.
App Store seems to have a lot of advantages but nobody knows the long-term effect of this.
http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows8/microsoft-windo...
"Related to this second point is information I’ve received that Microsoft has been furiously ripping out legacy code in Windows 8 that would have enabled third parties to bring back the Start button, Start Menu, and other software bits that could have made this new OS look and work like its predecessor. In fact, I’ve seen that several well-known UI hacks that worked fine with the Windows 8 Consumer Preview are no longer functional in the coming Release Preview. And those with hopes that Microsoft would allow businesses, at least, to boot directly to the desktop should prepare for disappointment. That feature not only isn’t happening, it’s being removed from Windows Server 12 (Windows 8’s stable mate) as well."
This may be the last OS they release ever, isn't it?
Beyond that I think the Metro UI is way more suited for administration tasks than the 'Start' UI. But we'll find that out won't we?
That activates the start menu, which no longer exists in Metro. It has nothing to do with the Start button itself not existing as a little circle in the lower left -- it's that the whole launcher / hierarchical list no longer exists.
Microsoft is a usability disaster. They have gone through so many aborted abandoned half-efforts that this adds another cluster-f to the mess. But never all the way (Metro most certainly isn't. The half-baked shell is missing the enormous bulk of core functionality that requires you to delve through the history of abandoned prior efforts. And in Windows 2015 you'll have to fall back to the Metro interface to do the small amount they implement in it), so you'll still have the control panels and the MMC consoles and the managed consoles in the server manager and the metro consoles and the.... jesus, that company is a catastrophe, desperately trying to solidify inertia, but only turning it to jello.
"We’ve talked in depth about building Windows 8, including the features, the designs, and the background behind these. We’ve done so in over 70 posts totaling over 500 pages if printed out and 34 videos totaling over 90 minutes"
It's like, if you asked people what they wanted in a car, they would have said a faster horse.
This is going to a huge kitchen-skin, designed-by-a-committee disaster.
Determining what the general public wants is a crap shoot. the only reason we're even talking about Apple is because they got lucky a few times. What about the countless companies that were creating the future only to fizzle out for lack of interest? Microsoft can't take those sorts of risks on their core cash cows.
Also, nautilus is easily the worst file management utility on any platform currently, most especially the gnome3 variant. Let me know when the Favorites, you know, actually work the way they do in every other file manager (including the gnome2 variant)
I'm used to Marlin, I mean "Files" (in Elementary), and Finder's column view. The Bookmarks that most file managers have make the lack of column browsing a bit more tolerable, but it's still lacking in a great number of ways. But no, not Nautilus's.
>This is going to a huge kitchen-skin, designed-by-a-committee disaster.
Err what? You're taking the PR spin at it's face value. The reality is that people have been hollering for the old Start menu and MS just went with what they think is right and the put up a few blog posts after they implemented things as they liked.
The blog posts are really explanations of what they alread designed. Look at how they started appearing only after the Beta came and not for the 2 years Windows 8 was actually being designed?
I'm an avid Apple user, and I'm not a fan of the direction Lion went, and the continued direction Mountain Lion is going. I use a notebook because I want a notebook: a keyboard for easy terminal usage and more efficient browser hunting, a mouse or touchpad for manageable selection tools, drawing, etc. I don't think I've ever pressed F4 (Launchpad, I think it's called?) on purpose, especially when Alfred or even Spotlight do the exact same thing much faster.
Windows took this in a stranger direction: let's make it two completely different experiences, but make the unifier the most difficult thing in the world to find. I haven't played with this release yet (played with the previous 8 preview), but if there's an easy switch button (probably is the Windows key), I'm all ears. Otherwise, let's move on. I'm not quite sure who they're targeting here.
The Chromebook/box announcement that came recently is, I think, the most interesting take. Seems like Google's idea was to build Ice Cream Sandwich with the desktop in mind. But here, we lose real apps. I'll tunnel and use Vim when I need to, but Sublime is too powerful for me to pass on. If I want to play Diablo 3 or Portal, forget about it. Then again, Google's looking at a completely different market than OS X or Windows 8.
Windows key brings you to the start screen or from the start screen back to the app (or desktop) you were viewing. Winkey + D displays the desktop.
I hope they get it right. Would love to see Windows becoming a true alternative to Android (if its not such a walled garden as crApples).
Because now, it's Apple's job to bring into the Macintosh family the 50 million iOS users who expect a device from Apple to work at all times and for a large variety of software which is vetted by Apple to be at a mouse click. No installation, no malware, no fancy configuration necessary.
It just works is migrating from iOS to OS X. Power users had better get used to it.
My first observation - to code/debug any Metro apps, you need two monitors.
Every time I see it I picture my father in front of a computer running windows 8, scratching his head :))
People are going to bitch and moan about this - with good reason - forever.
My other peeve is that you can type in to Win7 search start menu for everything, but in metro start menu, you type 'sound' for example, it doesn't appear, you have to select 'settings' first.
Otherwise, love the new design, super snappy too, but that could always be the fresh install smell.