Ask HN: What was your most humbling learning moment?

532 points by spcebar ↗ HN
I've worked on large products for large and small companies and written tens of thousands of lines of code across my career, solving complex, abstract, challenging technical problems in a variety of languages on a variety of platforms, sometimes under difficult conditions. I have often been a resource for my friends and co-workers when they have programming or technical questions.

I only recently learned how to correctly raise and lower window blinds--I had been doing it wrong my entire life. It was maybe the dumbest I have ever felt, and was a humbling reminder of how much I don't know about how much I don't know.

Have you had similar experiences?

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I took a mauser .25 pocket pistol apart.

one of these: https://sportsmansvintagepress.com/read-free/mauser-rifles-p...

Eventually got it together again, but it required assistance from my uncle who had given it to me. He laughed long and hard when i described the predicament, then said "yup, that one got me too". He also rebuilt Mercedes diesels as a hobby, so he was full of entertaining critiques of German engineering.

What was the difficulty in re-assembling it?
as i recall, understanding the design fully enough to get the springs and tetchy parts back together. Which goes where.

This was pre-internet so articles like that one weren't available to me. There may have been some trick to keeping springs where they were supposed to be as it reassembled too.

I got stuck with the Ruger Mark III .22 pistol. Reassembly after field stripping you have to know the trick to turn the pistol up (or even upside down at a 45 degree angle) with the magazine in place before you can get the mainspring housing assembly to seat correctly.
What did you do wrong and why was it dumb? What’s the correct way?
If you pull a blind cord to the right it stays up, if you pull it to the left it comes down. My whole life I've just been jiggling and tugging the cord to get it to stay or come down.
Definitely not in the German speaking countries, we have different blinds. You pull a cord down for the blinds to go up, and vice versa. Then the cord is tied to a hook or button.
Your windows open differently too. Instead of angling inward/outward along either of two axes, ours usually just slide up-down or left-right, remaining firmly attached to the window sill.
No offense, but HN and Reddit are both American created, operated, and primarily trafficked sites. It's not unusual to assume an American audience.

If OP came out assuming a Nairobi design that wasn't used anywhere else, or if they went to the heise.de forums and posted the above; now that would be odd/call-out worthy.

It looks like more than half the traffic is not coming from the US. So even with most traffic coming from the US many here aren't. Good news is that Ikea had a system like that. So there will be many households in Europe that's also fighting with blinds.
Sure, my only point is that telling Americans to back off of/check themselves in spaces that are their only ones just because English happens to be the most spoken language worldwide (especially in the tech-savvy communities) is always weird. Especially when ~45% of the traffic is American.

If an American that spoke German did the same in a German-majority space they would be met with pretty massive derision.

For those unfamiliar with this, the cord that raises and lowers the blinds applies friction against a wheel in a slot (when pulled to the left). When the wheel is shifted it holds the cord in place and the blinds and they stay in position. Pulling to the right releases the wheel and the blinds move freely.

Incidentally, one of the cords on the blinds in my office is worn, and it dis a poor job of engaging. So one side will latch the others will not.

At my house, all the strings are dry rotting, so any movement of the cord is pretty likely to lower the blinds. Rapidly.
I was in my 20s before I realized even numbered houses are always on one side of the street and odd numbers on the other. Literally no excuse for not figuring that out.
One of those life experience moments:

I "knew" this and a had a really good friend who did not. Both of us grew up in the same area, and we met in school, so you'd expect we should agree on this, right?

While "arguing" about it one day, it turns out the suburb they'd grown up in had several private subdivisions where the builders could do whatever they wanted. Houses were numbered sequentially following one direction of the private street, then the other. So the house nearest the entrance of the subdivision would be "100 Maple Street" and across the street would be "143 Maple Street".

Because they'd grown up mainly going to other friends' houses in the private subdivisions, my house address was the odd one and theirs were normal to them.

Even in the US with named/number streets "as normal" I know of at least three cases where the "front door moved" on a house on two streets, so the address number stayed the same but the street name changed, making it completely out of order.
Well, always if there's a street that was put down facing like that. Commonplace in new towns laid down over very large areas.

In the UK, oh wow, you will encounter some weird numbering issues. I live on the corner of a street in a very complex, 400 year old area, and I am forever leaning out of the window to shout instructions to utterly bemused couriers.

28 being next door to 47 at the end of a cul-de-sac can really mess with people.

Also on older estates where spare green spaces have been used up by additional houses so you end up with 21,23,25,25A, 25B.

The UK can be weird....

There's a gap in one of the streets where I lived, which is where the houses were bombed during WWII and the council decided to put in a park instead. Missing numbers don't normally cause any confusion, except that I had a beggar come round once or twice claiming to be a neighbour with an emergency - and they gave one of the numbers that didn't exist.
Right.

And if you live in some regularly redeveloped bit of a town that grew in the Georgian era you can end up with clusters of houses that have almost no discernible pattern left over; I live in such a house. The naming around here is astonishingly complex, such that if I explain it too much I would identify where I live.

(I have three physical neighbours -- that is, I share walls with them. And we are on three different roads, legally speaking)

The plus side is that as you get to know the couriers who you've helped, you begin to understand that your packages will never go missing. There is an Amazon driver who smiles from ear-to-ear when he delivers for me, and I even get good service from Evri.

I move soon, and since I'm the only person here who works from home who has a clear view of where all the delivery drivers get out of their vehicles wearing a confused look, I expect parcel delivery accuracy to drop for my neighbours when I'm gone.

(comment deleted)
Ireland dealt with this problem in sledgehammer-fashion back in 2015. Every house gets a unique postal code that resolves to a set of co-ordinates.

Somewhat useful for couriers, since a large number of houses are neither numbered or named, but the post office will know who lives where. I say somewhat, because they will often not use it when it's given.

I learned the numbering rule (in Brazil) at school - but have friends who didn't know it far into adulthood.

The rule, ~if I remember correctly (and matches my experience)~ confirmed by Googling is:

1) distance in meters from the beginning of the street to the start of the terrain where the building is in;

2)rounded to even number on the lefthand side and to odd number on the righthand side of the street/road

I guess knowing the rule isn useful so you know if you are at Soandso st. 200 and yout destination is Soandso st. 2200 thats a 2km walk there

That's quite neat actually! Had no idea :O
There's an additional rule used in Australia at least. Mostly.

The rule is that moving away from the post office, the left and right are predictably odd or even.

The other popular rule is that say the north side of an east-west st is odd etc.

Neither of these are followed carefully these days.

As usual, there are exceptions as well. For example some streets in Berlin use a "horseshoe" numbering system. I tend to look for the house numbers of opposing houses when I enter a street I don't know to check if it is horseshoe or even-odd numbering.
I took my Thinkpad to a repair shop because its charging port was damaged. A very stoic human pointed out to me it has *two* identical ones, USB-C type, right next to each other.
I am confused. Does only one of them support charging? (I've got one where both can charge, though they don't look the same because one is also thunderbolt)
I think this is their point given this threads question for a humbling learning moment. Both ports support charging but it took someone from outside to get OPs fixed mind off their habitual notion that only a specific port could charge. They did not even try that other port.
IIRC there was a MacBook with two USB-C ports where both could charge, but it would run significantly hotter (and throttle sooner) if the "wrong" one was used.
Haha.. I had exactly the same issue. To be fair, the other port is a little hidden since it is also part of a proprietary docking station port.
I learned way into my adult life that I could just turn the swivel hook/latch to quickly unwind the cord on a vacuum cleaner.

Before that moment I would manually unwind the cord just like I would wind it up. To make it worse, I even remember wondering why the swivel hook was there thinking it was poor design.

Steve…

What was the moment of realization like?

You're not alone.
> Before that moment I would manually unwind the cord just like I would wind it up.

As you should. Otherwise the cable gets twisted a few dozen times every time the vacuum cleaner is used.

I figure-eighted the cord onto those hooks to avoid that. Or alternated “over” and “under” with each pass around the hooks.

EDIT: When I say “over” and “under” above, I’m referring to the technique RedNifre linked to in the sibling comment.

Wait what ?

I've seen two different "systems", one where you do a quick pull on the cord and it spins back up, and one where there's a "roll up" button on the machine which winds up the cord, but I've never heard of anything you can do to make the unrolling easier ? Video ? Link? What is this magic you talk of ?

> it spins

You're thinking of a vacuum cord that automatically winds onto a spring-loaded reel, commonly seen on canister vacuums.

They're talking about an upright vacuum where you manually wrap the cord around two hooks. One of the hooks can be rotated so that it no longer keeps the cord in place.

Look at the two black hooks in front of the yellow cord in this picture:

https://f.media-amazon.com/images/I/61XbxqH6%2BQL._SP523,128...

Note that the bottom one can be rotated upward. The entire cord can then be removed from the machine in one motion.

Euro-mind-blown I didn't know they still made those, I only know them from old cartoons :o Thanks for clearing that up for me! :)
They're still available but they only seem to make them for professional cleaners (hotels etc) in europe. And they get big and you probably don't want them in your home.
Well, I didn’t know this either until I read your comment. Thank you!
I don't think this was dumb exactly, just naïve. I didn't know fireflies were real until my 20s. I thought they were just a made up thing in storybooks.

I was rooming with a girl I barely knew for the summer and was looking out the window while washing dishes. You know how fireflies tend to sync up? Suddenly I see hundreds of tiny yellow lights turn on and then off. On and then off.

I yelled for her to come in (at least to my credit I was more fascinated than afraid!), and she ended up dumbfounded that I had never seen fireflies before!

This is not really dumb, or naïve.

It's just not something you had any reason to encounter, and maybe you were off sick if it was mentioned in biology/science lessons.

Now consider it this way: the first time you experienced fireflies, you were an adult, and you could bring a fully adult, science-aware, sense of wonder to that experience.

I'd count it as a win.

I was thinking "naïve" in the sense of "just not knowing some normal things about the world." It's definitely my, "WAIT--fireflies are REAL??" reaction that makes me laugh after the fact.
A coworker similarly said "WAIT--reindeer are REAL??"

I'm thankful I had maturity to simply say "yes, they're in the deer family, native to Canada and Northern Europe".

They were from China where they probably rarely mention reindeer, and only in the context of Santa Claus.

It's no different from a Westerner rarely hearing about tanukis, and only in the context of trickster spirits in anime and Super Mario Bros 3. How are you supposed to know they're real?

> I'm thankful I had maturity to simply say "yes, they're in the deer family, native to Canada and Northern Europe".

Good for you!

Though I think we geeks are more inclined to understand when others have their "Sherlock Holmes didn't know the Earth revolves around the Sun" moments. :-)

When I was about 3 months into my programming career I performed a minor refactor to some code.

Unfortunately, the program was difficult to test (no unit tests) and very important, and difficult to verify correctness of output as well. (As in, you can't just look at it and say "yeah that's numbers lgtm").

Also unfortunately the previous author had not been very consistent in their programming style, so there was a lot of syntactic noise (some single line if statements used braces, some omitted them, etc)

Also unfortunately in my prior rewrite work in this, I had grafted the old UI onto my new backend to save time, but not brought the rigor there up to snuff (it's UI code, I had thought. It's well enough to have tests covering the business logic for now.)

Well anyway when I had rearranged some code, I hadn't realized there had been an extremely large block right underneath an if statement that wasn't using brackets, and I had accidentally split it into a few statements. N-1 of which were naturally now outside of the if statement.

The end result being that a bunch of code would run and the "is dirty" state worked fine, but if you clicked save on a "clean" state with no edits, it would blank the fields in the DB but not in the UI.

It didn't end up having any actual impact because we caught it in time, but god damn did it teach me something about "real" programming. I'm not sure exactly what all it taught me, but I think about that a lot as I do random other things now 8 years and 3 companies later.

> I'm not sure exactly what all it taught me

Time to get into woodworking!

> I'm not sure exactly what all it taught me

Make curly braces mandatory with a linter, of course!

Also, add tests before changing the thing.

Did that when I was younger, but with my own code :)

There was an if that didn't need brackets when I wrote it. 6 months later it needed more stuff on a branch but i was tired and in a hurry so I didn't notice adding extra lines needs brackets. New code compiled but wasn't part of the if. Turned a 5 minute fix into 2 days.

Of course, all my ifs have had brackets on both sides since then.

It is the thing I love about emacs, it autoindents everything, so if you got brackets/braces/parenthesis wrong you see something you don't expect. But obligatory braces work too.
Yeah maybe these days the smarter autoindent would prevent incidents like this. But it's too late for me, I'll add braces around 1 line branches till i die :)

Well, not in python...

Took me several days to realize why some cars in the UK have white license plates, some have yellow ones. (They don't: one colour is on the front, one on the back). I no longer call myself a 10x engineers, now it's 9x only (that's a joke, I'm hardly 1x).
Glad I wasn't the only one
In India yellow is commercial and white is non-commercial vehicle
Had an employee poach on of my customers. And had another do the same ten years later.

I apparently have trouble learning life lessons.

Two over 10 years doesn't seem like that much, but I guess even one is too many. What do you see as your life lesson here though?
Sorry for the delay:

In both time I knew it was happening, but I was too busy to fix it.

It almost happened again - I pulled the employee off the job, made him document everything, and put a team of people back in. He was banned from the job.

Kept both him and the customer.

Not my own story, but my mother's, told to me on the occasion of my 50th birthday ...

My parents met in their early 20s through another couple, Des (flatmate of my father's) and Mary (schoolmate of my mother's). Des had a sore hip, and Mary's mother was a "bonesetter" (a kind of folk healer) so came to the men's flat to see him. "Seeing him" involved Des getting some kind of vigorous massage in the bedroom, and then being slathered with red ointment, while my mother and Mary sat in the other room listening to him moan in pain

When the ordeal was over my mother, making conversation, asked Mary's mother what was in the ointment. One of the ingredients mentioned was "dragon's blood"

My mother went home to the apartment she shared with some of her siblings, and related the story to them. "Dragon's blood??" said her brother

... "and that", says my mother, "was when I found out that dragons don't exist"

> Dragon’s blood is a plant resin that may help with a variety of health concerns, including skin ulcers and diarrhea.

> Dragon’s blood is a natural plant resin. It’s dark red in color, which is part of what gives dragon’s blood its name.

> The resin is extracted from many different tropical tree species commonly called dragon trees. These may come from the plant groups Croton, Pterocarpus, Daemonorops, or Dracaena.

> The plant resin has been used for thousands of years for distinct purposes. There are records of its use among the ancient Greeks and Romans and in India, China, and the Middle East.

- https://www.healthline.com/health/dragons-blood

Ah, some of the things in this thread remind me of https://xkcd.com/1053/
Pff that comic is old news
I quote this all the time to people. There’s too much, we’re spread too thin. Ignorance shouldn’t be considered a big deal or a huge embarrassment. Not being ready to learn is a problem, but ignorance is sort of the default state now.
(I actually scanned the comment thread to look for this comic, I was going to add it but you beat me to it.)
The fundamental issue is that regardless of how common ignorance is, you risk failure.

You're correct it's not the end of the world, but you'll need to catch up quick once you realize something and maybe even completely rethink plans. This isn't always a bad thing and the stuff you come up with from ignorance might be useful in other ways.

In my opinion, ignorance is just a fact of life. Too much of it can be a disaster, but just enough can spark meaningful creativity. Often times though, it's just something to immediately move on from because you have way more other stuff to do.

Not to be a wet blanket, but yes ignorance should be tolerated and warmly received about things which do not matter much, but sometimes a person's ignorance about certain things can tell you unfortunate truths about the way they view the world and what they consider worth looking into or not.

For example, think of someone who is ignorant of the cultural practices of a certain minority of people despite seeing members of this group every day in their neighborhood, this tells me something not so positive about this person and how they view the world and other people. However it is never too late to change, either.

The same can be said for class as well, many people I have met who have grown up wealthy and comfortable and just don't think much about the people who serve their food, do work for them, make the things they buy, and have no idea who they are and what their lives are like and don't wonder about it. Part of that is how society is structured to hide these people from them, that's part of what they're paying for.
I feel related to that is hearing a word spoken that you’ve only read before, and the pronunciation is completely different from what you thought.
From 2011-2012 was Senior intelligence officer for Anderson Air Force Base, Guam, which is one of the most strategic bases in the United States department of Defense.

As SIO you are statutorily responsible for the joint worldwide intelligence, communication system (JWICS), maintenance, security, growth, interruptibility, etc… in addition to managing all Perssec for SCI holders, and maintaining control, security and for CNWDI as well as ACCM.

I was fresh home after a deployment to Iraq and thrown right into dealing with the Yp-Do crisis in SK and the Japanese Tsunami and Fukushima fallout that we had to provide HA/DR support for.

I was 28 years old with a one year old at home.

As part of maintaining security, I would regularly get inspected as you would expect for any manner of things. There is a special security team that lives at the defense intelligence agency primarily but also they have them for NSA and other organizations, that would do white hat penetration tests on secure information facilities, like all the ones that I was responsible for (I had a half dozen physical locations to manage).

One of these tests was during a large scale exercise. Two civilians who had perfect credentials, were trying to access our primary headquarters SCIF. At the time I think I was managing a top-secret briefing preparation and so I delegated access control, and interrogation of these two people to another Lieutenant, as well as the actual special security officer who was an E6.

They had previously tried to penetrate all of the other places on base, but failed.

The process for getting access to a SCIF if you are not housed there is that that you send a visit request from your home security office to the visiting security office which will then transfer clearance details so that you can understand what access levels to give these people.

About a month before their visit, there was a new guidance released saying that all visit requests had to have a digital requst in 100% of cases whereas are previously you could just print out your details and bring them with you, The special security officer would then look them up in a system (I won’t name), and then it’s up to the security office whether they give you access or not.

My Special Security officer and my lieutenant came to me and said they have everything that they need per the requirements that we were operating under, and that they were comfortable giving them access to a terminal where they could do what they needed to do.

I said “that’s perfectly fine however LT I want you to sit behind them basically and make sure they don’t walk off or do anything more than I’m giving them access to.”

So for like 30 minutes, we had two people in our SCIF who logged onto JWICS, we’re being actively monitored and were able to send an email and then logged off and left.

The next week, my commander asked me to go to a meeting and the penetration team briefed to the whole base how they got into all these places including my SCIF and one other facility

The good thing was, we were basically written up with flying colors, and this was the hardest possible test that they were able to get through and so everybody was generally happy with us.

This was really just one of those things where it was a specific detail that we were not up-to-date with but didn’t have any major defense in depth risks.

While it's an interesting story, I don't think this Ask HN was meant as a "what's your greatest weakness" job interview question.
Why this comment? This was a really interesting anecdote about how complicated situations in life can be.
i think that the story is loaded with about 80% superfluous context and 20% story.

op worked at us airforce base managing access control to global intel systems. he delegated authorisation check to jr. jr told op they checked out, however, jr had not adhered to latest security protocol that required cross checking request against request database, relying instead only on physical credentials. op granted access however asked that an officer watch the civilians’ access directly.

a week later it turns out the civilians were conducting pen testing for the systems and op had to debrief how they gained access.

and he doesn't sound humbled
Nothing more humbling than 1000 people being shown your error

But hey, if that didn’t come through, at least it was an exposition problem ;)

[dead]
Hey if you consider that my greatest weakness then I’m doing great!
so… many… acronyms… is this a thing in military like there are million acronyms everyone uses??! :)
Yup! It’s a pretty well known part of it. There’s running lists of military acronyms out there.
When I was younger, I had an issue with external vs internal validation. Sadly, it heavily skewed towards external validation. I was on the chunkier side for a lot of my childhood and into high school. Joined wrestling and stayed with it. Lot the weight, grew, and gained muscle. Also started to get a lot of attention from the opposite sex. That, with the external validation issue, leaned into it and just had fun. It became something that I just did.

I had been a personal trainer for awhile when I got a new client. An eighty something professor who taught Dante’s Inferno, Italian, collected degrees, and was actively pursuing some field in psychology (forget what one).

For about 6 months, we’d work out on Saturday mornings and he’d always ask of my adventures since we last saw each other. I’d regale him and that was that.

One morning after going though it all, he asked, “what else is there?” or something. Whatever it was, it stopped me in my tracks. I couldn’t answer. That question hit me harder than a freight train.

At that moment, I realized there was a massive issue with myself. I wanted a change, but a) didn’t know what to change, b) how to change, 3) how to feel about myself. We continued to work on him and his goals, which was to bench 135 safely. He got to his goal. ;). He also helped me to get to mine, which was to focus more on internal validation and be happy with self.

I was able to shift from heavily skewed external validation to external validation probably being now around 20%-30% and the rest being internal.

Because of him, I was able to embrace myself and lean into the information seeking snd knowledge gaining person I am today and get to a level that someone with my academic background should not be at.

A quote that I came up with many years ago that explains all of this and the transformation I had, “you’re not going to change until the pain of change is less than the pain of staying the same.”

One other one too. From him, the professor. I have severe adhd and can read the same sentence 50 time and not remember what I just read, if it’s not something I’m highly interested in. I came to him and told him that it’s so damn boring and it’s just a fight to sit there and attempt to read it.

He gave me a mind shift: instead of thinking how it’s important or exciting to you, try to imagine why the author of it thought it was so exciting, to where they spent their career learning about that subject. That allowed me to completely change how I read and that too has helped me more in the past years than I could imagine.

Your final paragraph sums it up nicely. I think a lot of people when they see something educational will just switch off if it doesn't immediately engage a personal interest. Seeing it from the point of view of the author is a great way of putting it. I can explain this to my kids. Ok, Newtonian physics is boring. So let's think about why Newton made such a deal out of it.
Oh, external validation vs internal validation has certainly been a humbling experience for me too.

So humbling I could compare it with a train crash. Sadly possibly over-compensating for it now, but I don't want to go back to the external validation spiral.

Amd thank you for sharing, and putting into words what I didn't manage.

> “you’re not going to change until the pain of change is less than the pain of staying the same.”

A thought I have had in the past also, I think it is very true.

> He gave me a mind shift: instead of thinking how it’s important or exciting to you, try to imagine why the author of it thought it was so exciting, to where they spent their career learning about that subject. That allowed me to completely change how I read and that too has helped me more in the past years than I could imagine.

Yeah. I studied psychology and it was the most prominent mind shift for me too. Watching what people do you need to see what is going on in their heads, not the outside things. Looking at a product of someone's work you should see the person who did it.

It completely changed my attitude to discussions. I was a math guy, any statement either true or false, and you need to decide on each one before going further. But now people say things, and I do not see them as things by themselves, I see them as things said by persons. Oftentimes it is completely irrelevant are these things true or false.

> I was a math guy, any statement either true or false

Interesting... for me, a fair amount of decisions are weighted--I can see that damn payoff matrix in my head.

I said it in another comment, "each person has their viewpoint from their own vantage point."

My question to you is, how were you able to make that change? I'm going to presume that it still rears its head time to time and when it does, do you notice it quickly and are able to adapt in the same conversation or is it mostly a reflection and realization you were like that? or am i not even asking the right questions?

That last paragraph has helped me many, many times in situations from politics to personal. It's especially easy to be "this person is wrong, why don't they see how wrong they are" and much more useful to be "why is this person looking for this".
> "this person is wrong, why don't they see how wrong they are"

Each person, company, industry, street, city, country, state, country, ..., each thing has their own viewpoint from their own vantage point and will most likely see, interpret, view what's being conveyed differently than the sender.

Each person has their own view and it's valid, i just may not agree with it, but i still want to understand why they think / believe / convey that.

at the same time, i'm obtuse and sometimes forget to look outside myself. :|

It's always humbling to think I know a topic pretty well only to meet a true expert on the topic. It makes me think about how much time I spent learning it to not really feel like I know it at all, and makes me second guess my learning process. I can think of several times in my career/life where this has happened.

Also related, learning something, only to find out later that your understanding of something was incorrect, or made incorrect assumptions. Always humbling.

In the mid-2000s, I got excited about creating a company that deals with web design. Now I wouldn’t risk doing this, knowing all the pitfalls. the more you know, the more you doubt
Happens so often to me it’s no longer humbling.

Though of course I do some things well I’ve been doing most things poorly all my life. That’s what learning as an adult feels like.

Good luck.

Idk what my most humbling moment would be, but there's been a few.

I've spent the majority of my career looking for wook rather than doing work, and have lost at least 7 jobs in the first 12 years for one reason or another. This is going on the 3rd time I've spent more than a year without working at all in any job. It never gets easier, and each time I get to spend a ton of time reflecting on how things went and what I'm actually good at. It's usually humbling, because so far the list of things I'm good at professionally has only dwindled. Another humbling aspect to this is realizing that most other people don't lose their jobs... like ever, unless it's seasonal or severe economic downturn.

During one of those periods I spent so long unemployed that I literally ran out of money and moved into a car from my relatively nice apartment, and then worked at Starbucks as a barista, which taught me that I can be good enough at speaking with customers, but what I thought were trivial tasks turned out to be almost laughably untenable, like remembering how much syrup goes in Karen's caramel macchiato, or just showing up on time.

Honest question and genuinely curious: what is difficult about showing up on time?
"Just showing up" can mean dealing with all the daily annoyances.

https://www.inc.com/danny-iny/woody-allen-said-show-up-to-su...

If it's not hard, why can't everyone seem to do it?

I have a friend who's a defense lawyer. He tells me that prison must be the happiest place on earth, given the lengths that people go to just to get a chance of getting in. It's funny and illustrative, just like the Woody Allen quote about showing up.

While I agree with that version of the phrase, and have applied it in other areas, I meant literally showing up at a specific time, consistently over a long period. Applying the Woody Allen quote though, I absolutely believe this is why I'm in good shape and have a decent real in-person social network.
Untreated ADHD can make this really really really hard. And the worst part is: nobody will understand because it is not hard for most people, so everyone assumes that being late is a character issue.

To understand how hard it is, imagine that you have periodic blackouts during which you completely forget not only that you need to be on time for work, but that work is a thing that exists in this universe. You cannot control when one of these blackouts will hit, you just get to deal with the fallout.

Precisely. You can work on this with techniques and coping mechanisms (and sometimes medication) but it’s a constant struggle.
Yup. And no matter how many techniques, coping mechanisms, organizational systems, medications and meditations there are - there will still be something that will slip through the cracks, that something will be important, and will make people scratch their heads and wonder how it was possible to drop the ball in such a spectacular fashion.

Luckily, the long list of coping mechanisms significantly reduces the incidence of these catastrophes. But "when will my brain malfunction again" is a constant source of anxiety.

> there will still be something that will slip through the cracks, that something will be important, and will make people scratch their heads and wonder how it was possible to drop the ball in such a spectacular fashion.

What doesn't help is how many leaks there are in the systems we operate in, that are just overlooked because we've either accepted them as fundamentally important, or because most other people will manage to pull it off despite the systems' inadequacy.

For example, feedback loops and focus time. Companies will design their workspace to be as distracting and dehumanizing as possible, where someone can roll up a chair at any random moment and start asking questions, meetings are scheduled sporadically throughout a day or week and don't have any positive value contribution. We'll use 3 different asynchronous communication systems that everyone needs to attend to all the time, but no integrated notification system between them; I'll miss that Jira comment because I forgot to check Jira, and then that someone responded to my code review because I'm not checking GitHub every 20 mins, and yet I can't focus on my code for longer than an hour because my boss asked me "How's it going" on Slack.

I quell that anxiety by reminding myself of all the superpowers it gives me. If you haven’t read “ADHD is Awesome,” I recommend it.
I don't know, this line of thinking seems similar to "I am a midget - but look, I never have a problem with legroom on airplanes!" The tiny upside is simply incommesurate with the massive downsides.
The upside is not tiny. There are many, many things I am far better at than most of my peers.

I highly recommend reading “ADHD is Awesome” as well as Mark Suster’s blog posts on ADHD.

We should make it a social expectation that you can show up any time ±1 hour from the official start time of your office job. That way, "I'm ready half an hour early: I could catch the earlier train" becomes an actual thing, and you don't have to kill time for half an hour and risk missing two trains in a row.
It would be better, as long as there isn't an implied strict start time, like a morning scrum every day.
Looks like riehwvfbk (below) hit the nail on the head. I don't know that I can add anything to their explanation, except that the blackouts are an analogy for what is basically object/obligation permanence issues.

For example, I might get in the shower with enough time to make it to my zoom call or an actual in-person job, and then start thinking about something or realize the hair has grown in on my shoulder, and literally forget that I had somewhere to be, or wildly misjudge how long I've been in there, and it can kick off a series of additional delays, like I might then miss the bus.

In one-off or irregular situations, this rarely happens, but given enough time, I'm bound to do something like this that doesn't fit into what my manager considers suitable conduct, and once they get this in their head, it's tough to recover from.

I think you need to try working in tiny startups, if any of your skills would make that work. There, gaps in resumes and random ends to employment are expected. Nobody asks about mine, and I end up taking a full year off every 4-5 years whether I want to or not (but I usually do want to).

No, my normie friends don't get it at all, and everyone ALWAYS asks me "how the job search is going" even when I've told them every week for 6 months that I'm not trying to get a job, but trying to hold myself to their norms was a lost cause for me anyway.

Ya that would be my ideal next place, unfortunately it's also an economic downtown in Canada, so I'm sort of doing the latter part of your comment and throwing DMs and my resume out whenever something comes up. Honestly I'm thankful that I've had the time off, and because I expect any given job won't last long, I save my money quite aggressively.

Eventually something turns up.

Yeah, exactly. I was blessed with inexpensive tastes, so I find it easy to live well below my means.

Plus, one lucky break with some early equity goes a long way.

It's not the right game for everyone, but it's totally viable once you get the hang of its rules. And many of us find they're a better fit than the normal rules ever were.

I really wouldn't go so far as to say it's "viable" for me, as much as it's had it's benefits and sometimes severe drawbacks. For example, I will literally run out of money again if something doesn't come around soonish, and that's not a good place to be. I have no upward or horizontal mobility, no true dependents, no investments. I can however occasionally go on a trip if I'm not in such a risky position, say within a few months out of a job, and I've had more free time than most, but I really just have living expenses. It's good to take whatever positives there are though, because I absolutely do not think if I'd made other decisions things would be different, or that my personality would magically shift into being a perfect corporate drone, nor would I want that.
I usually don't comment on HN but needed to ask you: How did you recover?

It's been 8 years since I graduated. I started working at a Bank in a Management Rotational Program with great manager but dropped it within 4 months because young me dreaded being pigeon-holed at 9-5. I joined a promising startup but... the co-founder unexpectedly passed away. Long story short, I have had 6 jobs (incl. internships) within last 8 years: I have lost jobs for one reason or the other (startup folded, directions changed etc).

In good times, I am able to appreciate diversity my experience but I feel undervalued; I am more of a "jack of all trades, master of none" and feel I've taken 2 steps forward, one step back in my career. This has also damaged my professional as well as personal interests.

How do I move forward from here?

Well, I've asked myself and HN similar questions, and don't really have an answer yet, so I'll offer a few disconnect thoughts that I hope provide something valuable, because this is a legitimately stressful and uncommon position to be in.

Preface: If you have considered counseling or asking your doctor about ADHD, then here's what you might expect. In my case, I eventually went down this path because I had returned to University Applied Computer Science because I was in this same low period and needed a change; I wanted to challenge my imposter syndrome and see if I could push myself through the curriculum.

After succeeding at nearly all of my data structures and algorithms assignments, persuasive essays, and anything remotely engaging, I suffered a few set backs, failing one of the 2 easiest courses I'd taken, bombing my DS+A exams, and basically getting nowhere. The Data Structures exam was all writing Java Abstract Data Types and LinkedLists etc.. by hand on paper over 3 hours, and I got bored of doing that halfway through, no increased blood pressure, no sweat, it just didn't provoke an urgency in me.

I'd also slept through the midterm, and failed one of the Geo labs that required me to draw many graphs each week by hand on paper. I failed in situations that other people would consider high-pressure (passing an exam) but nailed every practically interesting or applicable assignment, and this was in my late twenties. So I went to see the nurse practitioner, we talked, she gave me a series of family questionnaires regarding mental health to see what there was a history of, and offered a prescription for Concerta 27mg (extended release Ritalin). Since then, it's helped in a subtle way to reconnect me with a tenacity for getting things done that I think had been burnt out of me, but also helped me realize that I really did probably need this my whole life. It was scary, but the effect has been marginally helpful.

-- end preface --

I've been considering getting out of dev entirely, but I don't have a good feeling for which direction to go yet, if at all. Maybe a small investment in trade school, or maybe focusing on freelance, I have no idea whether I'd succeed at either and it's tough to in-debt myself more when money already isn't coming in. You mentioned getting out of the banking job early on, but that's something I've been considering as a boring and stable job for a while, even as a teller, that would allow me to pursue my hobbies more, but really I'm open to almost anything at this point. I'm still drawn to programming though, so I'm still focusing on that, and elaborate on below.

I'm trying to be critical of what I'm good at and what I'm not good at, and I feel like I lack efficiency and depth in the few areas that are hiring, and so I'm trying to work my way back up or rebuild my proficiency from first principles.

For example, I consider myself a frontend developer, but my last few roles have all been jumping into an existing complex projects and making incremental improvement or refactors, with no significant responsibility. Among some weak points are my knowledge of low-level software engineering, building SaaS products from scratch and scaling them, using AWS or Azure, and I've let my backend experience stagnate. To address these, I've been working through Nand2Tetris (highly recommended), and building up some basic projects from scratch using Django, Nuxt.js, Next.js, Postgres, and Tailwind, so I can at least speak more confidently about them and expand my job search for when the tides turn.

It's important to cultivate a good sense of self during these periods. If you can, get out into the mountains, or into nature, alone, and spend some time thinking on it. Independent from that, if you're not in good physical shape, just start showing up to the gym 3 times a week for about an hour each time. These are some of the non-tech ways I stay mentally engaged and are a...

I often learn how to use something well that I've been using my whole life. A ratchet strap was a good example--you can use it without understanding how to use it well. One video (essential craftsman) fixed that for me.

I think the most humbling for me is seeing a real pro use something you use a lot, like a kitchen knife.

How were you using ratchet straps wrong?
Well, I didn't know the reason I was opening the ratchet handle--the opposing end has a cam on it, so it moves a metal bit out of the way of the ratcheting teeth. I would pull that thing out of the way with a finger on my second hand (when under load it can be very hard to get loose).

I also didn't know about the harmonics & putting a twist in the line. I also had a lot of problem with my lines working loose, which I don't have anymore, but I'm not sure I learned the fix in the video.

Back when cloud computing was mostly for early adopters, I used to work on many customer projects at the same time, or in quick succession, in an architect/developer role. It was great as long as the projects worked out as planned and I could deliver a working system in a few weeks or months and move on to the next project. It was easy to become a little overconfident until I faced unexpected difficulties in some projects and the tight schedules started to fall apart.

For instance, I learned that you should never trust what a customer says about reusing their existing code without actually looking at the code first. You can end up having to rewrite the code, and then have a dissatisfied customer, because the new code doesn't have the same problems as the old code and produces different results. It doesn't matter which one is correct, since the old code was already used for years and everything is based on it.

So the humbling experience has been not to become too optimistic and overconfident after some successful projects. You will become the bad guy if you over-promise and can't deliver, even if you feel someone else is actually to blame. Every time you start something new, you have to check for yourself what the requirements and conditions truly are before accepting a deadline. And you can never trust the documentation or description of an existing system without also looking at the actual system.

I've mostly been on the "user" end of buggy internal company code. It's always a scary day when the interns start, because we finally have someone who will have the time to "fix" the bugs in the code--but half of them we have been using off-label as "features" to solve other problems.

Whenever I start at a new company, I make sure to ask not just what breaks the system, but how the system breaks when it breaks. One person's broken pot is another person's cutting tool!

The most humbling learning experience I have ever had was having a child.
Being 15 and unable to grasp the concept of an array whilst wishing I could somehow use a variable to escape my at the time a1, a2, … a11 variable naming convention.
A formative experience for me was learning to program and asking a peer “how I do lots of variables but I don’t know which one I need” - I had none of the terms to even ask for what I needed.
That phrasing of the question is not bad at all, just needs an open minded person to answer it
Haha, tell me about it.

When I was first learning PHP as a teenager I also had similar problems. I did not know about SQL JOINs for at least a couple of years; which meant database querying was... overcomplicated to say the least.

The other epiphany I had was when I started to realise HTTP was just a request string getting parsed. Given I had used FTP and web servers like Apache previously for HTML and files, I was convinced the directory structure in the URL was the directory structure on disk. It took me a long time to get my head around the fact that you could just grab the request URL from the HTTP headers and not have to have hundreds of physical folders to make URLs like /category/subcategory/page (I'd managed to approximate this with making folder structures that looked like this with index.php files in).

> The other epiphany I had was when I started to realise HTTP was just a request string getting parsed.

I've never thought of it like this, but I didn't understand for a long time that a webserver was just a function that run with the request as an argument.

I remember at 15 being annoyed that I couldn't figure out a way to have a textbox which I could use to input and run any arbitrary code while my own code was running to debug it.

Like being able to type "println(x)" to get the value of x.

Took me a quite few years to discover the intricaties of the so-called debugger :D

I went from hacky hobbyist programmer to working on core business logic for a startup that eventually the whole company would rely on. I was mostly a one-person team at the company, and I kept a lot of my bad unscalable tendencies from making small fun projects. No formal testing, very little documentation, hundreds of “TODOs”, breaking API changes without really telling anyone, no QA process, no monitoring/reporting, etc.

It all came to a head when my employer was demoing some software that used my API and none of what they were trying to show worked because of multiple unrelated bugs in my code, causing us to lose this very large client. I somehow kept my position, worked with other departments to formalize QA processes, and started regularly communicating with the API users.

Before I was just making software for nobody with 0 stakes, the reality of having actual people, entire revenue streams dependent on my code being reliable didn’t fully register. At my previous (and only other at the time) employer I was basically a paid seat filler. I spent a lot of work hours making personal projects, it felt like going to work and getting paid to make hobby code.

I’m glad I was able to learn from the experience and it didn’t put me out of work or anything

This hits a little too close to home right now. Only a week ago have I felt that I did a few things to actually make an impact.

And this only because it seems that the CEO noticed I can spin up prototypes to validate ideas before passing them to the actual devs.

I've worked with him for a total of 3 years however, and during that time, most of the time I felt like I was tinkering without making a real difference.

The only time that a bigger project was implemented that I had the lead on felt like a fluke and it was after probably 6 months of working on it.

Would the code have been there and the demo have happened if you had done everything by the book?
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Probably more of a humbling moment for the CEO. They just demo'd something without both conferring with the devs and doing a practice-run themselves?
The sledge hammer to the cyber truck. Given that everyone knows that demos have a nasty habit of going wrong, what kind of madman tries something without testing it first?
The sledge hammer was fine, it was the giant steel ball that was the issue. And it was rehearsed many, many times - the issue was that the window was slightly rolled down during the demo, making the window lose a lot of its rigidity. And was sort of a moot point anyway since the production version didn't wind up having the same "armored glass" that the prototype did.
Funny to see this comment which is in stark contrast to the current top comment [0]. I suppose in reality it's all about balance.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40557571

I think it's a bit more nuanced.

One complains about enterprise level architecture in run of the mill small projects.

One complains about bugs, which should just be covered by tests, nothing that should sound or be complicated.

Learning that the world doesn't revolve around me, and that other people (and other animals) have rich and complex inner lives worthy of curiosity, dignity, and love (I can't be sure, but it feels like a healthy perspective). I'm in my 40s and this lesson, started in youth, is still sinking in. Having a child, and the commensurate second childhood, is a major impetus.
I was going to write something very similar to this. Not only does the world not revolve around me, but looking back on my sadly somewhat recent behavior in early-mid 40s, and feeling ashamed and embarrassed at my behaviour and how I've treated people in the past.

This is still a learning experience, probably always will be one, and an opportunity to always grow.

My impetus wasn't a child, but a break-up and almost lost business. I saved the business in the end, but it didn't grow to what I had expected, and then I realized how much I had given up, just to try to make that work, and how much I had taken for granted the people around me.

A wise team lead once told me "I never knew how selfish I was until I had a kid".
Always something new... this week its some *nix commands

cat backwards (tac) will display the file in reverse order :)

chown username: with the colon and the group name blank will set the permission to the user's default group.. very useful when you blend windows groups with spaces into an environment and it becomes a pain in the ass to put return characters in