> What I want to criticize is that Apple would rather re-add Magsafe than add another USB-C port, making one wonder if they are really clearing out old inventory.
This is so minor, but clearly MagSafe isn’t about clearing out old inventory because it’s a different connector than old MagSafe.
Have you ever had that be a problem though? In my experience USB (any type) pulls out anyway.
I do find MagSafe appealing, but not enough, not if it's not what everyone's using. If it were a feature of USB-C it'd be great; as a separate thing, no, I'd rather have a non-magnetic USB-C.
(Haven't used the MagSafe port or cable on mine yet, and don't expect to.)
Pulling away has generally been fine but I've had USB C cables break due to shearing (laptop at the edge of the table and someone swings their hand while walking past). It doesn't seem break the port thankfully but I do carry a MagSafe cable with me if I remember. The nice thing is if I forget I can still just use USB C again.
To be honest the most appealing thing isn't even the accident prevention, it's one of those "slight interaction improvements for something you do hundreds of times over the year" type things in that you bring the cable near and it just clips in, you pull the laptop away or push a little in any direction and it just pops out. Is it a big deal compared to tugging out for a type C cable? No. Is it nice? Yeah.
USB-C pulls out cleanly only if you pull the cable in a direction roughly parallel to the insertion axis. MagSafe can be pulled from any direction and disconnects cleanly without damage.
I've ruined one laptop usb-c port and almost ruined a second from tripping over the cable or the laptop falling off a table and yanking the cord out at a bad angle. The magnetic connectors are awesome! I use them in every laptop. You can buy magnetic adapters super cheap on Amazon.
I agree it's a great feature, it just doesn't trump 'universal' for me. At my desk I want one cable to plug in, and MagSafe can't be it. Travelling if I take USB-C it can charge my phone and earphones too, transfer data if I needed to even.
It's just never going to be such a great feature for me to bother finding/carrying the different & extra cable, personally.
In 20 years of having laptops, I have never ever damaged the laptop or power cable by accidentally pulling on it or tripping over it, despite pulling or tripping on it fairly frequently. For some number of years during that time when I had a Mac laptop with MagSafe, I very often accidentally knocked the power cable out, which was always super annoying.
I've been using USB-C for charging on three different laptops over the past 8 years or so, and I've been perfectly happy with it.
I'm sure some people have damaged laptops with non-MagSafe charging, but I've been more annoyed with MagSafe than I think it's worth.
Good for you. I know someone who tripped on a power cable and broke their toe, leading to years of complications. Events with odds lower than 1/20yr can still be worth considering. For what it’s worth I have never used MagSafe on my MacBook but don’t mind that it’s there.
Do the new magsafe pins burn out after a year or two like the old ones? Or the cable insulation sloughs off?
And then of course you had to buy an entire new proprietary charger from Apple, not just a 3rd party cable. Or even take the laptop to Apple to replace the laptop's magsafe connector.
The burning problem was a SNAFU on the first-gen “T-shaped” connectors. They redesigned gen 1 into an “L-shape”, which fixed it.
The cable rubber was always remarkably shit, even with really delicate handling. Lucky now it’s a braided cable, and holding up well so far. Time will tell
Lastly, they thankfully made the cable modular, with a USB connection to the brick. Sometimes I use it with a USB-C to C cable, so I can use it with my phone.
The phones never used this type of MagSafe, MagSafe only phones would still be allowed under the current mandate, and the laptops already supported USB C charging prior to the mandate.
How so? MagSafe 3 was first available in 2021 (so probably developed in 2019-2020 timeframe, if not a bit earlier). The mandate didn't come out until 2022, and takes full effect this year. Besides, you can still charge the laptops with USB-C, the MagSafe option is just that, an option.
I have a Framework, because I much prefer Linux, and don't want to spend more than market prices on SSD and RAM. It's the best Linux laptop I have ever owned.
However, I do have to admit the Macbook just has a better build quality, and Framework could up their game here. Especially the bezel, the general "gritty" feel of the aluminum, the cheap feeling to the pluggable modules. Reflections in the screen are not mirror-like, they are wavy. The screen resolution and brightness could also be higher by a notch; it's impossible to use the Framework in sunlight but I think Macbooks are in fact barely useable in the sun.
Some of those could definitely be improved, but also, I do think that it is much, much easier to build a "premium" feeling product when you can seal the whole thing together and don't have to worry about repairs or upgrades.
It's one reason while, why I'm personally a big fan of framework and their philosophy (my 16 just arrived the other day), I also know that they aren't for everyone. Repairable, upgradeable, modular, hardware comes with real trade-offs and not everyones value function will prefer those trade-offs.
In terms of display, framework 16 can definitely hold on its own against macbook. I saw no difference in terms of brightness (only when I downloaded an app for macbook to use HDR to boost it beyond maximum), resolution was also perfectly fine and couldn't see a difference. 165Hz however feels ever so slightly more smooth. The notch on the mac looks ugly af though and was first thing i disabled and I much prefer the look of framework.
What I don't like about the framework is definitely the aluminium sides that you use to position the touchpad. The tolerances are too high and it makes it look like a prototype. Honestly I would buy just a simple bottom piece with no adjustments possible, center is fine for me
I actually really miss this style of blog post that was really common back in the day. Very human-like. What is the multi-touch scene like on the Framework? I used to be Ubuntu-primary and the one thing it wasn't good at was things like scrolling in 4 directions. On my Mac, I can move many web things left and right and diagonally, but on my Ubuntu laptop (likely as a constraint of the laptop I had) I could only move along the axes.
On something like Excalidraw, for instance, I just move like I have my fingers on the screen. It's great on my Macbook. Is it like that on Linux? I think I might well buy one soon with this and DHH recommending.
I just bought another Asus ROG Zephyrus laptop and got Ubuntu running on it. I have yet to try LLMs on the built-in 4090, but I'm excited about that. Thank you for the review!
Just a random thought, it's amazing how competitive a startup can be when compared to a company that has orders of magnitude more R&D funds! Tradtionally, I would think hardware products would have a relatively large moat!
Well the MacBook air is the cut down budget product. The Framework can't compare to the MacBook Pro. The mini led screen, the battery life, the performance, the speakers. I wish it did because I much prefer Linux to MacOS
Oh, good for you! I guess there is a sizable population even with software developers for whom money is some concern. I mean I can't be the only one...
Obviously I want to save money, it's just a bit different for the primary work laptop. We use it to make money so want the best we can get (to make money faster)
Without numbers/longer hands on impressions it’s hard to know.
The Mac may have way faster storage. Or higher bandwidth RAM. Or run cooler. Or start faster. Or longer battery life. Or a better trackpad. Or keyboard.
Or not.
A lot of stuff in both machines is commodity parts. Apple doesn’t make its own screens and the Air is the worst screen their offer (I love it, but it’s relative). They don’t make storage chips or RAM chips or WiFi chips. A lot of stuff any company could do.
And, even ignoring the RAM/SSD prices, Apple loves their 30-40% margins. If Framework is willing to make less per machine they have more to spend on each unit even at the same price. Some of this is lost to volume discounts they don’t get, but it still helps.
They use 3rd party NAND and DRAM but the controllers for each are part of their custom SoC (along with their CPU and GPU) and things are a little bit different than how anyone else does it with integrated solutions as a result. I believe the USB/thunderbolt are part of their custom SoC too. Some of the microcontrollers for other functionality (secure enclave, camera/microphone processors, touchpad and the like) are outside the SoC but custom. Wi-Fi is still a standard Broadcom chip, for now at least :).
It's somewhat disappointing how much cool customer hardware is limited to just Apple products to be honest.
Right? This is like doing a car review, but continually pointing out that you are just going to leave it parked in front of your house so you don’t care about how it drives.
I think this is right, but optionality is valuable.
I'm curious if a $500 mini PC plus a bottomed out mb air would suffice (maybe not! Having all your stuff on your laptop can be useful)
For all that, I haven't considered a Mac mini even though I'm probably an ideal user. It doesn't help that it's on the m2 instead of m3, though. (Or m4, which is in iPads?)
I have a high-end DIY Linux desktop and a base model M1 Air that I got for $750. I think it’s a good pairing. The laptop works well as sort of a thin client to the desktop for real work. If I didn’t have the desktop I’d definitely want more RAM, and probably a machine with a fan. Despite what many people say, I’ve had no trouble getting it to run OOM or start thermal throttling.
I wanted to try a Linux laptop, but in the end I felt having a ton of battery life was ultimately my top priority when away from my desk. I don’t much care for what Apple is doing with MacOS, but their hardware really is great.
Yeah we’re kind of between. The M4 just appeared so it’s not there yet.
Rumor is the M3 chips were quite expensive due to the low yields on the new fab process so Apple didn’t seem to want to put them in their less popular computers/devices.
The M4 is on a different fab process. It’s the same feature size, but I don’t think it can run quite as fast. In exchange it’s much cheaper and cooler running. So an M4 sounds worth waiting for.
My first-gen Framework 13 with Ubuntu is usable, but has major issues around power. Battery life is very poor compared to ordinary laptops (I get ~3 hours of web browsing and light coding), and compared to M-series Macbooks (which have extraordinary battery life >8 hours) it is abysmal. Suspend/resume often fails in strange ways, and occasionally even power on is problematic (e.g. battery is full but it won't turn on without being plugged into a charger). Repair-ability and running OSS software is an idealistic goal that I share, however in practical terms the need to repair a laptop is very rare. So when it breaks, I'll be well ahead of the curve; when it doesn't, which is most of the time, I'm behind the curve.
I also have a Framework 13, and I agree that Apple’s ARM laptops have amazing performance per watt. The reason I have a Framework 13 instead of an ARM Mac is user-serviceability and cost savings. There is 32GB of RAM in my Framework, and at any time I could choose to upgrade to 64GB whenever necessary. However, because RAM in ARM Macs is integrated into the system and is not a separate user-replaceable component, I must purchase the maximum amount of RAM I could afford upfront, which is prohibitively expensive for me. I also do not like how storage is built-in instead of available as NVMe M.2 modules. I miss the days of my 2006 MacBook and my 2013 Mac Pro, which were both easy to upgrade. It’s this lack of upgradability in recent Macs that led me to switch to PCs despite my preference for macOS over Windows and desktop Linux.
With that said, if a company offered me the choice between a PC or a Mac, I’d pick the Mac every time. It’s different when someone else is paying ;).
I’m firmly in team Mac. And I really don’t care about upgradability that much. I’m OK with buying up front.
But Apple’s BTO prices are, as everyone knows, totally insane. Combined with pathetic base amounts it really burns people. I know a lot of Mac fans who keep putting off upgrades because it costs so much to get a decent config.
There are some decent sales on B+H and Microcenter on older higher-spec units. B+H had a 16” MBP M1 Max 10/32 (upper bin) with 4TB/64GB for $3.3k (then $3k, lol jebaited) this time last year. Microcenter has M1 Max 14” 64GB/1TB (yeahhh 1tb but it’s ok) for $1800 right now, refurbished tho. And stuff does go on sale in the refurb store too over time, and “factory refurbished” woot are also AppleCare eligible, factory refurb (which the microcenter don’t appear to be?) may also be the same at other vendors so just a thing to keep an eye on. Usually it’s in the About, and you can jump to a system report by holding down option when clicking the apple menu and it’ll be an option. TIL and I’m passing it on. Apple: you can (not) discover
AppleCare is more worth it on a loaded out newer laptop imo. If you have a $3k laptop you are committed to getting it fixed for a while. It maths out that if you break a screen you’re break even. Whatever. I’ll probably lose the bet but things like tile and stone will fuck up a screen if it gets any velocity at all, hard surface impacts suck. I bought a nice laptop because I want to carry it around outside etc and still be able to do whatever I want off the plug. And M1 Max is perfectly fine at that, really the popularity of the M1 has massively eroded most of the M2 and M3’s thunder. “More perf more power” was only a narrative that mattered (throttle to whatever you want, and efficiency goes up anyway) because the price gradient from M1 has always been insurmountable.
M4 Max is the first time I’m interested, primarily because of SVE and true neural accelerator APIs not through metal. And a lot of cumulative gains too, of course. AV1 encode and decode, way better perf and much better graphics, etc. I’ll definitely wait at least another gen most likely (get M4 Max on firesale?) but there really is starting to be a more substantial difference than people realize.
Honestly the air 15” is also a very compelling form factor if they give you a second pixel pipe in the m4 (does it? I thought I read it did). Especially if they get it to 32gb on the top sku… fine. Even 24gb is fine for what it is and those M2 Air 15” 24GB/1TB SKUs are down to $1700 or something in the refurb store. 14/16" MBP 32GB/1TB M1 Max are also perpetually cheap, I've seen them down below $1400 iirc. Standard/popular work laptop.
It’s been nice having the M1 Max and doing inference on the gpu, dolphin-mixtral etc are super useful and actually helpful in on tons of first-pass summarization of a niche etc. I would like more, I hope AMD lets the gpu allocate unlimited memory on Strix halo. Half the time it's plugged in as a pseudo workstation, doing some AI shit and tinkering and generally just being a beefcake with crazy memory b/w, triple thunderbolt, etc, half the time it's out on the (stone) patio or a table out in the lawn sipping power, with a nice bright screen (the fingerprints tho...) while the dogs play (and one of them is on a tieout, so he knocks things over, etc). And whether or not it's a gimmick ($350 for the 3-years and I break even if I have a screen break? i'm ok with this) it's given me peace of mind to just carry it around and use it.
I've totally been able to spend way more time out with the dogs with a nice laptop again. It's been a huge QOL change to get a portable workstation slash do it all thin-n-light with great build quality, a well-supported unix ecosystem and pytorch ecosystem, a performant GPU with a good library and broad application support, super great efficiency, high-end AI/ML model capability, a nice screen,...
I think apple BTO prices are competitive with large laptop vendors but not with Framework. For example a m3 pro 16”/96gb/2tb costs 7700aud. A dell with 64gb and 2tb costs at least 6000aud. hp zbook with 64gb/2tb costs like 8000aud and that’s after discount. Obviously the dell and hp may shine in one or two things but are probably inferior in many ways. I’m not sure how warranty stacks though, applecare for 3 years is 650aud, and that’s definitely something i would purchase.
I reckon there’s apple tax, but I also think it’s competitively priced.
Framework 16” is significantly cheaper if you diy.
Edit: Now that I'm at a laptop and not on phone I could check on the warranty situation. The Dell come with 1 year standard warranty (which is better than Apple's 7 complimentary 7 day), but the XPS is 420aud for 3 years, and the Alienware is 735aud for 3 years. HP situation is better with a HP Care Pack with 3 year support/warranty for 190aud or 270aud depending which model you choose.
Yeah, I got the naming wrong but the prices right-ish (actually 7800aud not 7700). That'd be a m3 max 16"/96gb/2tb which is 4799ukp, but you're right the spec equivalent dell alienware is 2399ukp.
But in australia the dell alienware is 6000ish aud, and the xps 16 (which is a non starter as it has a touch sensitive esc/function keys and invisible touchpad) is also 6000 aud. I guess we're paying some crazy tax on the alienware. Also the alienware is 18" which depending on what you want is good or bad (personally something I wouldn't want).
Edit: In the usa m3 max 16/96gb/2tb is 4699usd, alienware 16" 64gb/2tb is 2249usd.
> But in australia the dell alienware is 6000ish aud
The Alienware m16 R2 actually looks cheaper in Aus than UK, you just can't spec it with 64GB/2TB for some unknown reason. If you could for the same percentage bump as the UK, it would be 3577 AUD.
> But Apple’s BTO prices are, as everyone knows, totally insane.
I think the thing to understand is that the only well priced configurations that Apple offers are the base models.
If you want more ram/storage, it's almost always better to upgrade to the appropriate level CPU that gives you that "for free". The only exception is if you want to run the absolute maximum amount of ram; there's nothing after the Ultra, so you just have to grit your teeth and smile while Apple takes their pound of flesh.
Hopefully Apple's newfound interest in AI will spur them to increase the amount of ram they include across the board.
> My first-gen Framework 13 with Ubuntu [...] (I get ~3 hours of web browsing and light coding)
Mine is significantly better than that, I don't mind saying it doesn't last as long as my (I think M3 Max) MBP, but it's not that bad. I use Arch rather than Ubuntu, and I think have 'tlp' or something installed as generally recommended (for any laptop), but haven't otherwise done anything special. I haven't even updated the firmware/BIOS, which I think is supposed to offer a battery life improvement.
I use arch on my framework 13” with sway and no real special software for battery or special bios setting. I’d be very lucky to get 4 hours with light web browsing. Typically I get 2 hours since I do some compiling and/or video conferencing. Pretty appalling.
I have the AMD Framework 13 running Debian/KDE and get substantially better battery life than what you're describing but it definitely still doesn't compare to an M-series Macbook.
That said, it's worth noting that battery life struggles are common across all Linux laptops, not specific to Framework. I've run Ubuntu on laptops from several brands and they all have weird suspend/resume issues, high battery usage, and so on. (I just installed `tlp` for the first time at the recommendation of another reply to you [0], so we'll see if that makes a difference.)
I'd be curious to hear from someone who runs a Framework with Windows (if such a person exists) to see what the power story is like there.
I had a Framework 13 (Intel, 11th gen) running Windows, the battery lasted 3.5h – streaming a movie (reproducible). The other major issue was the fan constantly running on max, I didn't have a laptop fan that loud for 15 years.
Before having several loops with customer support, I tried ever forum post, all options, settings, tricks etc. Then I end it in for repair, the final summary: Everything works as expected.
So I returned it. I tried another time with Framework 13 (Intel, 12th gen) and that showed exactly the same behaviour, so I again returned it :(
I want to love Framework, for me I clearly see a huge value in repairability: I'm having a Lenovo Ideapad for 5 years now, there was some dirt under the keys, so I tried (by documentation) to remove the key cap and destroyed it by doing so. Then I wanted to replace the keyboard, and by doing so I destroyed the connector to the keypad. I'm clearly not a hardware guy, but I've been repairing my devices (PC, phone) for decades now, and I never struggled as much as I did with the Ideapad.
I plan to give Framework 13 (Intel, Ultra) another shot, because they finally have the 61Wh battery in the first CPU tier. But I fear it won't make a difference as Framework remains ignorant about their broken power management (horrible battery, fan noise, heating up).
> battery is full but it won't turn on without being plugged into a charger
This is a known issue with specifically the first-gen model (i.e. Intel 11th Gen mainboard). The rechargable coin-cell RTC battery is only charged from the USB-C charger, not from the internal LiPo battery. When the coin cell degrades, it cannot hold a charge for long anymore, so you need to connect the notebook to external power to turn it on even if the battery is full.
Framework has acknowledged the issue and provides a replacement part free of charge that you can solder onto the main power rail of the notebook. Since I have no experience with soldering, I had a friend assist me with the soldering part, and now the issue is gone for me.
I can't paste the link right now because my workplace's firewall blocks the frame.work website for whatever reason, but search on the community forum for "RTC Battery Replacement" and it will give you the thread with instructions for how to get the replacement part.
First gen Framework (11th gen) here. It's different your experience is from mine.
I get typically 8-10 hours (more than enough for a full school day) on my laptop, although I have done numerous power optimizations.
Intense TLP optimizations do most of the work! There's a lot of threads regarding optimization on the community forum too!
Otherwise:
- Keep all expansion cards as USB-C
- Do what powertop tells you to do (watchdogs, autosuspend)
- Run a lightweight WM/DE (Hyprland without blur and shadows in my case)
- Limit electron apps, anything but electron apps.
- Use light mode (dark mode, from my experience, causes me to increase the backlight far higher than on light mode, something unfavourable on IPS panels)
Non inverted-T arrow keys make the Framework 13 a non-starter for me. I hated the full size Left/Right keys on the post Retina MacBook Pros, and Apple didn’t change it back just for me either so I don’t get why any manufacturer would try it.
Quite a big weight (almost an entire kilo), size, and price (799 vs 1399 USD) jump to get arrow keys I can move my hand to by feel alone 100% of the time.
There's no good direct comparison that checks all the boxes of fairness while being something that makes much sense to order for the given products. If you go against a MacBook Pro to make the cooling type even then you've pretty much excluded comparing to any typical Framework build combo unless you're willing to compare to an absolutely anemic version of the Pro at a still likely higher cost. There will be some things each wins/loses on but, in the end, it doesn't make sense to get that version of the Pro anyways as the Pro really only starts to make balanced sense at the $2000 and up mark, right after where the Framework upgrades stop making sense.
One comparison that would involve the Pro is "best hardware I can buy regardless of the cost" but not many people ask that question and the answer is either going to be an obvious "a high end Pro" or "Framework because I need Linux and the M3 hardware isn't the best for that".
One key thing not mentioned is OS support. I own an M2 MBA for personal use, and have an M2 MBP at work, specifically because they feature macOS. I realise that is not to everyone's taste, but it is mine, it's where I'm productive, and what I enjoy using. This is a spec-point worth something to me as a result. For those who prefer Linux, that may be a spec point worth something too!
I love many things about the Framework laptops, and hope Apple learns from them on those things, but ultimately I'm still on Macs because that spec point is worth so much to me.
That section should be called Linux support then, because Macs clearly support macOS better than anyone else. I'd even argue that macs support macOS better than any hardware supports linux.
The author's commentary is definitely personal and biased towards that. That said macOS isn't necessarily the golden example of perfect hardware support by its OEM either, e.g. Linux supported hardware accelerated GIC support on Apple silicon 2 years before Apple did. macOS generally does better about it than 99% of other options do their respective hardware but I'd leave room for exception.
The "Operating System" section of the article touches on this.
Most of Framework's employees use Linux, to the extent that the CEO himself runs Windows, to shake out any glitches with Windows support. [0] It's a tiny mom & pop shop compared to Apple!
Cannot really compare framework to air m2. Just the chip alone makes a major difference.
But most importantly, being modular adds extra weight and size. So completely different leagues. Better off comparing the arm windows laptop to the air m2
You’re right they’re both aiming for a very different ideal. Mac is more towards integrated/small/light/seamless. Framework is more expandable/serviceable/upgradable/tinkerable.
This reviewer seems really bitter about what Apple can manage with hardware where framework can't quite meet. The processor comparison seems woefully out of touch, among other points.
I desperately wanted to get a Framework laptop but they are so oddly priced. Some of it's on stuff you can opt out of, other bits aren't. Overall it seems nice to use but so hard to justify anything but the base options.
On the stuff you can opt out of: Their 2x16 GB DDR5-5600 costs nearly as much as 2x32 GB DDR5-5600. The exact same model of WD 4 TB drive costs $250 more than WD sells it for on Amazon. Based on the $1640 price it looks like the author didn't opt to order these separate despite picking the DIY option.
On the stuff you can't opt out of: It's $300 price difference to go up to the 7840U. On the 16 it's another $200 to go up from the 7840HS to the 7940HS. Considering right now I can get a barebone 7940HS mini pc for $432 after instant coupon on Amazon it seems a bit steep to have the price _difference_ between the 7640U and 7940HS be $500. You can also get an external 2560x1600 120 Hz 500 nit monitor for less than the price to upgrade from the 60hz to 120hz option on the Framework. I get high base cost for a niche product but the overall spread here is just excessive when the whole point is supposed to be how much the flexibility opens things up. What good are replaceable parts if replacing them will quickly cost more than just buying a new laptop outright?
The Linux support is nice but it's not like it's the only AMD or Intel laptop with Linux certified accessories out of the box around.
I can’t really see the detailed part of the review. You can simply open the web page of the both products and see the things mentioned in the blog post yourself.
I didn't know the author’s opinion, and I skipped that section given I know my own preferences already.
But I think it’s fine it wasn’t up top. If you want a Mac you already know you have to buy an Apple computer. If you want to run Linux natively you likely already know you don’t want a Mac.
(Yes, Asahi exists and has done an amazing job, but the Mac doesn’t have official Linux support and the Framework does)
Unfortunately this review doesn’t mention the thing that I’ve come to adore since my M1 (now M3) Air: it’s dead silent since there is no fan. And in my normal use it never gets warm. Ever.
I haven’t tried maxing out a game. I’m sure it warms some, but from what I’ve heard it won’t get hot.
I know you can get better performance elsewhere. I don’t care. Having my laptop never get hit is a total game changer. My last 2-3 MBPs (Intel) all got hot and it got worse with each model.
Do something stressful in the slightest? There’s the WOOSH.
I wasn’t expecting to care as much but it’s such a huge QoL thing. I’m not going back to fans. I’m not going back to a hot keyboard. I’m done with it.
If I were to get a Framework (or anything else) the ability to get a cool silent (or very close) configuration would be a huge concern for me.
Do they offer that? Ive never looked. I’ve been hoping the new ARM PCs might be able to match, at least as more appear, but I read the initial ones all have fans.
Outside of the fact I was hoping for comments on that, it was a nice article. It’s not surprising to me that the Air case looks better, unibody construction has a lot of advantages. But it’s expensive to make and repair and would probably make some of the flexibility Framework offers impossible.
I was also pleasantly surprised to read the screen was ~200ppi. I know people’s reasons but having been in the >200 club for many years it annoys me to no end so many Windows laptops still ship with 1080p displays on 13 or 15” models.
Framework 13” 12th generation Intel can get pretty hot when I do parallel compile jobs. Not scorching hot, but hot tea hot. Can’t let it sit on my exposed thighs. Oh and yeah the framework is noisy.
That’s what I expected, and there’s not much they can do given the CPU choice they’ve had. Thanks.
My personal laptop is an M3, my work laptop is a 2019 Intel MBP. So I feel and hear the difference every day in heat/noise alone. I’m looking forward to the next work upgrade cycle, whenever that ends up being.
About the resolution scaling warning in the article:
If you're running GNOME, install GNOME Tweaks (likely in your distro's package manager). The "Fonts" section has a "Scaling Factor" option gives you more granular control than a "large text" toggle. Try 1.37 or 1.50. Nearly all my apps respect it (except for OpenSnitch). Everything looks tack-sharp with none of the fractional resolution scaling drama.
Going to copy/paste from a comment I posted a year or so ago.
I have a 12th gen Framework 13", 13" M1 Air, and a 15" M2 Air. I use the Framework laptop for work because I need to use Linux.
The Framework laptop is mediocre just like pretty much all PC laptops. The hinges are awful, if you pick up the laptop upright, about 50% of the time the screen falls flat 180 degrees.
The trackpad is arse in Linux.
If you're lucky you can probably get 5 hours battery life, but on a realistic workload you're looking at 2-3 hours.
The keyboard is pretty nice, but I wish ctrl/fn is swapped like Apple and it has the inverted mini-T keyboard arrows (or at least I wish someone would make a swappable keyboard for the Framework).
The speakers are bloody awful.
Display/Webcam/Mic are fine.
I would like more ports over modular ports, but I appreciate the design that went into the modular ports.
Speaking of modular ports, sometimes they abruptly stop working and require removing and reseating.
All these small nits really add up and it just feels like a mediocre experience. It is my work laptop, but I try my best to avoid using it over my PC with WSL2 or either Air laptop, but I try my best not to mix work and personal.
Both the 13" M1 Air and 15" M2 Air are just amazing compared to the Framework, and I suspect PC laptops in general. They have their drawbacks, price (gouging in some ways), less ports, can't drive dual displays, but their trackpad, finish, speakers, etc. are just amazing. I personally prefer MacOS to Linux for a desktop experience as well.
For one C++ project I work on I need 32GB of memory to compile as sometimes the oom-killer will kill the compiler. That's one of the only reasons I use my WSL2 desktop or Framework laptop since memory is cheap.
The Framework touchpad is unfortunately a lot worse than the haptic touchpads on MacBooks. The click is just a little too mushy, and requires too much force as you click higher up the trackpad. I think there are finally some PC laptops with haptic touchpads, so if Framework starts offering one I’d definitely upgrade my FW13.
I have a Framework 16 and an 16" M1 MacBook Pro. The Framework 16 has just been a toy to mess around with on the side for me because the MacBook Pro is just so much better:
- The difference in battery life between the two is ridiculous. Even with a battery that's fairly degraded from all the charge cycles I've put it through, the MacBook still lasts 3-4 times as long under the same workloads
- The quality of the touchpad experience is vastly better on the MacBook, especially because of the excellent haptics (like it's almost magical how much it feels like you're clicking a physical button despite there not being one)
- The audio quality from the built in speakers is no contest between the two, the Framework simply sounds like crap
- The fans of the Framework seem to be necessary far more often and are whinier sounding than the ones on the MacBook
- The display on the Framework doesn't look as good, even when calibrated (I haven't been able to figure out if this is just due to me comparing matte vs glossy here though)
The Framework's repairability, modularity, and openness just aren't enough for me to overlook all the negatives. I love and support the goals of Framework and I hope they find ways to improve to the point where it will be easier to choose their laptops over a MacBook.
> What I want to criticize is that Apple would rather re-add Magsafe than add another USB-C port, making one wonder if they are really clearing out old inventory.
Nope; it's not the same as the old MagSafe (it's actually the _third_ incompatible version).
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[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 174 ms ] threadThis is so minor, but clearly MagSafe isn’t about clearing out old inventory because it’s a different connector than old MagSafe.
I do find MagSafe appealing, but not enough, not if it's not what everyone's using. If it were a feature of USB-C it'd be great; as a separate thing, no, I'd rather have a non-magnetic USB-C.
(Haven't used the MagSafe port or cable on mine yet, and don't expect to.)
To be honest the most appealing thing isn't even the accident prevention, it's one of those "slight interaction improvements for something you do hundreds of times over the year" type things in that you bring the cable near and it just clips in, you pull the laptop away or push a little in any direction and it just pops out. Is it a big deal compared to tugging out for a type C cable? No. Is it nice? Yeah.
The big thing is I don't have to have the discipline to always be careful where the charging cable is and adjust my movements to keep it untouched.
Cables are cheap. One less thing to worry about is priceless.
Full disclosure that was pre-USB-C. I haven’t “tested” USB-C in that way.
But it’s a really great feature. And frees up a USB-C port for other use.
It's just never going to be such a great feature for me to bother finding/carrying the different & extra cable, personally.
I've been using USB-C for charging on three different laptops over the past 8 years or so, and I've been perfectly happy with it.
I'm sure some people have damaged laptops with non-MagSafe charging, but I've been more annoyed with MagSafe than I think it's worth.
The cable rubber was always remarkably shit, even with really delicate handling. Lucky now it’s a braided cable, and holding up well so far. Time will tell
Lastly, they thankfully made the cable modular, with a USB connection to the brick. Sometimes I use it with a USB-C to C cable, so I can use it with my phone.
https://a.aliexpress.com/_EyK6Rjh
I use them in phones, laptops, Flipper Zero, anything which takes USB C.
However, I do have to admit the Macbook just has a better build quality, and Framework could up their game here. Especially the bezel, the general "gritty" feel of the aluminum, the cheap feeling to the pluggable modules. Reflections in the screen are not mirror-like, they are wavy. The screen resolution and brightness could also be higher by a notch; it's impossible to use the Framework in sunlight but I think Macbooks are in fact barely useable in the sun.
It's one reason while, why I'm personally a big fan of framework and their philosophy (my 16 just arrived the other day), I also know that they aren't for everyone. Repairable, upgradeable, modular, hardware comes with real trade-offs and not everyones value function will prefer those trade-offs.
But that’s expensive. And I agree with you it’d likely make upgrades/repairs much harder or more expensive and may remove modularity all together.
What I don't like about the framework is definitely the aluminium sides that you use to position the touchpad. The tolerances are too high and it makes it look like a prototype. Honestly I would buy just a simple bottom piece with no adjustments possible, center is fine for me
On something like Excalidraw, for instance, I just move like I have my fingers on the screen. It's great on my Macbook. Is it like that on Linux? I think I might well buy one soon with this and DHH recommending.
I just bought another Asus ROG Zephyrus laptop and got Ubuntu running on it. I have yet to try LLMs on the built-in 4090, but I'm excited about that. Thank you for the review!
The Mac may have way faster storage. Or higher bandwidth RAM. Or run cooler. Or start faster. Or longer battery life. Or a better trackpad. Or keyboard.
Or not.
A lot of stuff in both machines is commodity parts. Apple doesn’t make its own screens and the Air is the worst screen their offer (I love it, but it’s relative). They don’t make storage chips or RAM chips or WiFi chips. A lot of stuff any company could do.
And, even ignoring the RAM/SSD prices, Apple loves their 30-40% margins. If Framework is willing to make less per machine they have more to spend on each unit even at the same price. Some of this is lost to volume discounts they don’t get, but it still helps.
They use 3rd party NAND and DRAM but the controllers for each are part of their custom SoC (along with their CPU and GPU) and things are a little bit different than how anyone else does it with integrated solutions as a result. I believe the USB/thunderbolt are part of their custom SoC too. Some of the microcontrollers for other functionality (secure enclave, camera/microphone processors, touchpad and the like) are outside the SoC but custom. Wi-Fi is still a standard Broadcom chip, for now at least :).
It's somewhat disappointing how much cool customer hardware is limited to just Apple products to be honest.
You’re right USB/TB interfaces are on the M3 (or whatever) directly.
I'm curious if a $500 mini PC plus a bottomed out mb air would suffice (maybe not! Having all your stuff on your laptop can be useful)
For all that, I haven't considered a Mac mini even though I'm probably an ideal user. It doesn't help that it's on the m2 instead of m3, though. (Or m4, which is in iPads?)
I probably should
I wanted to try a Linux laptop, but in the end I felt having a ton of battery life was ultimately my top priority when away from my desk. I don’t much care for what Apple is doing with MacOS, but their hardware really is great.
I mostly don't even need a powerful desktop (but the cost curve is so attractive vs laptops)
Rumor is the M3 chips were quite expensive due to the low yields on the new fab process so Apple didn’t seem to want to put them in their less popular computers/devices.
The M4 is on a different fab process. It’s the same feature size, but I don’t think it can run quite as fast. In exchange it’s much cheaper and cooler running. So an M4 sounds worth waiting for.
With that said, if a company offered me the choice between a PC or a Mac, I’d pick the Mac every time. It’s different when someone else is paying ;).
But Apple’s BTO prices are, as everyone knows, totally insane. Combined with pathetic base amounts it really burns people. I know a lot of Mac fans who keep putting off upgrades because it costs so much to get a decent config.
AppleCare is more worth it on a loaded out newer laptop imo. If you have a $3k laptop you are committed to getting it fixed for a while. It maths out that if you break a screen you’re break even. Whatever. I’ll probably lose the bet but things like tile and stone will fuck up a screen if it gets any velocity at all, hard surface impacts suck. I bought a nice laptop because I want to carry it around outside etc and still be able to do whatever I want off the plug. And M1 Max is perfectly fine at that, really the popularity of the M1 has massively eroded most of the M2 and M3’s thunder. “More perf more power” was only a narrative that mattered (throttle to whatever you want, and efficiency goes up anyway) because the price gradient from M1 has always been insurmountable.
(original German, machine auto translation English at the top with the flag) https://www.notebookcheck.com/Qualcomm-Snapdragon-X-Elite-in...
M4 Max is the first time I’m interested, primarily because of SVE and true neural accelerator APIs not through metal. And a lot of cumulative gains too, of course. AV1 encode and decode, way better perf and much better graphics, etc. I’ll definitely wait at least another gen most likely (get M4 Max on firesale?) but there really is starting to be a more substantial difference than people realize.
Honestly the air 15” is also a very compelling form factor if they give you a second pixel pipe in the m4 (does it? I thought I read it did). Especially if they get it to 32gb on the top sku… fine. Even 24gb is fine for what it is and those M2 Air 15” 24GB/1TB SKUs are down to $1700 or something in the refurb store. 14/16" MBP 32GB/1TB M1 Max are also perpetually cheap, I've seen them down below $1400 iirc. Standard/popular work laptop.
It’s been nice having the M1 Max and doing inference on the gpu, dolphin-mixtral etc are super useful and actually helpful in on tons of first-pass summarization of a niche etc. I would like more, I hope AMD lets the gpu allocate unlimited memory on Strix halo. Half the time it's plugged in as a pseudo workstation, doing some AI shit and tinkering and generally just being a beefcake with crazy memory b/w, triple thunderbolt, etc, half the time it's out on the (stone) patio or a table out in the lawn sipping power, with a nice bright screen (the fingerprints tho...) while the dogs play (and one of them is on a tieout, so he knocks things over, etc). And whether or not it's a gimmick ($350 for the 3-years and I break even if I have a screen break? i'm ok with this) it's given me peace of mind to just carry it around and use it.
I've totally been able to spend way more time out with the dogs with a nice laptop again. It's been a huge QOL change to get a portable workstation slash do it all thin-n-light with great build quality, a well-supported unix ecosystem and pytorch ecosystem, a performant GPU with a good library and broad application support, super great efficiency, high-end AI/ML model capability, a nice screen,...
I reckon there’s apple tax, but I also think it’s competitively priced.
Framework 16” is significantly cheaper if you diy.
Edit: Now that I'm at a laptop and not on phone I could check on the warranty situation. The Dell come with 1 year standard warranty (which is better than Apple's 7 complimentary 7 day), but the XPS is 420aud for 3 years, and the Alienware is 735aud for 3 years. HP situation is better with a HP Care Pack with 3 year support/warranty for 190aud or 270aud depending which model you choose.
> a m3 pro 16”/96gb/2tb costs 7700aud
You can't buy an m3 pro with more than 36GB in the UK. A Max with 64GB is £4,699 (8,900 AUD).
A 64GB/2GB Dell Alienware is £2,399 (4,550 AUD).
But in australia the dell alienware is 6000ish aud, and the xps 16 (which is a non starter as it has a touch sensitive esc/function keys and invisible touchpad) is also 6000 aud. I guess we're paying some crazy tax on the alienware. Also the alienware is 18" which depending on what you want is good or bad (personally something I wouldn't want).
Edit: In the usa m3 max 16/96gb/2tb is 4699usd, alienware 16" 64gb/2tb is 2249usd.
The Alienware m16 R2 actually looks cheaper in Aus than UK, you just can't spec it with 64GB/2TB for some unknown reason. If you could for the same percentage bump as the UK, it would be 3577 AUD.
https://www.dell.com/en-au/shop/gaming-and-games/alienware-m...
I think the thing to understand is that the only well priced configurations that Apple offers are the base models.
If you want more ram/storage, it's almost always better to upgrade to the appropriate level CPU that gives you that "for free". The only exception is if you want to run the absolute maximum amount of ram; there's nothing after the Ultra, so you just have to grit your teeth and smile while Apple takes their pound of flesh.
Hopefully Apple's newfound interest in AI will spur them to increase the amount of ram they include across the board.
Mine is significantly better than that, I don't mind saying it doesn't last as long as my (I think M3 Max) MBP, but it's not that bad. I use Arch rather than Ubuntu, and I think have 'tlp' or something installed as generally recommended (for any laptop), but haven't otherwise done anything special. I haven't even updated the firmware/BIOS, which I think is supposed to offer a battery life improvement.
That said, it's worth noting that battery life struggles are common across all Linux laptops, not specific to Framework. I've run Ubuntu on laptops from several brands and they all have weird suspend/resume issues, high battery usage, and so on. (I just installed `tlp` for the first time at the recommendation of another reply to you [0], so we'll see if that makes a difference.)
I'd be curious to hear from someone who runs a Framework with Windows (if such a person exists) to see what the power story is like there.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40745832
Before having several loops with customer support, I tried ever forum post, all options, settings, tricks etc. Then I end it in for repair, the final summary: Everything works as expected.
So I returned it. I tried another time with Framework 13 (Intel, 12th gen) and that showed exactly the same behaviour, so I again returned it :(
I want to love Framework, for me I clearly see a huge value in repairability: I'm having a Lenovo Ideapad for 5 years now, there was some dirt under the keys, so I tried (by documentation) to remove the key cap and destroyed it by doing so. Then I wanted to replace the keyboard, and by doing so I destroyed the connector to the keypad. I'm clearly not a hardware guy, but I've been repairing my devices (PC, phone) for decades now, and I never struggled as much as I did with the Ideapad.
I plan to give Framework 13 (Intel, Ultra) another shot, because they finally have the 61Wh battery in the first CPU tier. But I fear it won't make a difference as Framework remains ignorant about their broken power management (horrible battery, fan noise, heating up).
This is a known issue with specifically the first-gen model (i.e. Intel 11th Gen mainboard). The rechargable coin-cell RTC battery is only charged from the USB-C charger, not from the internal LiPo battery. When the coin cell degrades, it cannot hold a charge for long anymore, so you need to connect the notebook to external power to turn it on even if the battery is full.
Framework has acknowledged the issue and provides a replacement part free of charge that you can solder onto the main power rail of the notebook. Since I have no experience with soldering, I had a friend assist me with the soldering part, and now the issue is gone for me.
I can't paste the link right now because my workplace's firewall blocks the frame.work website for whatever reason, but search on the community forum for "RTC Battery Replacement" and it will give you the thread with instructions for how to get the replacement part.
Otherwise: - Keep all expansion cards as USB-C - Do what powertop tells you to do (watchdogs, autosuspend) - Run a lightweight WM/DE (Hyprland without blur and shadows in my case) - Limit electron apps, anything but electron apps. - Use light mode (dark mode, from my experience, causes me to increase the backlight far higher than on light mode, something unfavourable on IPS panels)
Quite a big weight (almost an entire kilo), size, and price (799 vs 1399 USD) jump to get arrow keys I can move my hand to by feel alone 100% of the time.
I want framework to succeed because i like the idea of modularity but c'mon, go against a MacBook Pro at least.
One comparison that would involve the Pro is "best hardware I can buy regardless of the cost" but not many people ask that question and the answer is either going to be an obvious "a high end Pro" or "Framework because I need Linux and the M3 hardware isn't the best for that".
I love many things about the Framework laptops, and hope Apple learns from them on those things, but ultimately I'm still on Macs because that spec point is worth so much to me.
OS support is the final section, they gave it a point for having solid Linux support.
Most of Framework's employees use Linux, to the extent that the CEO himself runs Windows, to shake out any glitches with Windows support. [0] It's a tiny mom & pop shop compared to Apple!
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIEc43CxIvY
But most importantly, being modular adds extra weight and size. So completely different leagues. Better off comparing the arm windows laptop to the air m2
On the stuff you can opt out of: Their 2x16 GB DDR5-5600 costs nearly as much as 2x32 GB DDR5-5600. The exact same model of WD 4 TB drive costs $250 more than WD sells it for on Amazon. Based on the $1640 price it looks like the author didn't opt to order these separate despite picking the DIY option.
On the stuff you can't opt out of: It's $300 price difference to go up to the 7840U. On the 16 it's another $200 to go up from the 7840HS to the 7940HS. Considering right now I can get a barebone 7940HS mini pc for $432 after instant coupon on Amazon it seems a bit steep to have the price _difference_ between the 7640U and 7940HS be $500. You can also get an external 2560x1600 120 Hz 500 nit monitor for less than the price to upgrade from the 60hz to 120hz option on the Framework. I get high base cost for a niche product but the overall spread here is just excessive when the whole point is supposed to be how much the flexibility opens things up. What good are replaceable parts if replacing them will quickly cost more than just buying a new laptop outright?
The Linux support is nice but it's not like it's the only AMD or Intel laptop with Linux certified accessories out of the box around.
Should probably start the review with this. I'm not gonna buy a Framework 13 if I want to use macOS, and vice versa.
But I think it’s fine it wasn’t up top. If you want a Mac you already know you have to buy an Apple computer. If you want to run Linux natively you likely already know you don’t want a Mac.
(Yes, Asahi exists and has done an amazing job, but the Mac doesn’t have official Linux support and the Framework does)
I haven’t tried maxing out a game. I’m sure it warms some, but from what I’ve heard it won’t get hot.
I know you can get better performance elsewhere. I don’t care. Having my laptop never get hit is a total game changer. My last 2-3 MBPs (Intel) all got hot and it got worse with each model.
Do something stressful in the slightest? There’s the WOOSH.
I wasn’t expecting to care as much but it’s such a huge QoL thing. I’m not going back to fans. I’m not going back to a hot keyboard. I’m done with it.
If I were to get a Framework (or anything else) the ability to get a cool silent (or very close) configuration would be a huge concern for me.
Do they offer that? Ive never looked. I’ve been hoping the new ARM PCs might be able to match, at least as more appear, but I read the initial ones all have fans.
Outside of the fact I was hoping for comments on that, it was a nice article. It’s not surprising to me that the Air case looks better, unibody construction has a lot of advantages. But it’s expensive to make and repair and would probably make some of the flexibility Framework offers impossible.
I was also pleasantly surprised to read the screen was ~200ppi. I know people’s reasons but having been in the >200 club for many years it annoys me to no end so many Windows laptops still ship with 1080p displays on 13 or 15” models.
My m1 and m2 air when pegged may get lukewarm.
My personal laptop is an M3, my work laptop is a 2019 Intel MBP. So I feel and hear the difference every day in heat/noise alone. I’m looking forward to the next work upgrade cycle, whenever that ends up being.
If you're running GNOME, install GNOME Tweaks (likely in your distro's package manager). The "Fonts" section has a "Scaling Factor" option gives you more granular control than a "large text" toggle. Try 1.37 or 1.50. Nearly all my apps respect it (except for OpenSnitch). Everything looks tack-sharp with none of the fractional resolution scaling drama.
(I write more about this here: https://cmart.blog/framework-surprise )
I have a 12th gen Framework 13", 13" M1 Air, and a 15" M2 Air. I use the Framework laptop for work because I need to use Linux.
The Framework laptop is mediocre just like pretty much all PC laptops. The hinges are awful, if you pick up the laptop upright, about 50% of the time the screen falls flat 180 degrees.
The trackpad is arse in Linux. If you're lucky you can probably get 5 hours battery life, but on a realistic workload you're looking at 2-3 hours.
The keyboard is pretty nice, but I wish ctrl/fn is swapped like Apple and it has the inverted mini-T keyboard arrows (or at least I wish someone would make a swappable keyboard for the Framework). The speakers are bloody awful. Display/Webcam/Mic are fine. I would like more ports over modular ports, but I appreciate the design that went into the modular ports. Speaking of modular ports, sometimes they abruptly stop working and require removing and reseating.
All these small nits really add up and it just feels like a mediocre experience. It is my work laptop, but I try my best to avoid using it over my PC with WSL2 or either Air laptop, but I try my best not to mix work and personal. Both the 13" M1 Air and 15" M2 Air are just amazing compared to the Framework, and I suspect PC laptops in general. They have their drawbacks, price (gouging in some ways), less ports, can't drive dual displays, but their trackpad, finish, speakers, etc. are just amazing. I personally prefer MacOS to Linux for a desktop experience as well.
For one C++ project I work on I need 32GB of memory to compile as sometimes the oom-killer will kill the compiler. That's one of the only reasons I use my WSL2 desktop or Framework laptop since memory is cheap.
- The difference in battery life between the two is ridiculous. Even with a battery that's fairly degraded from all the charge cycles I've put it through, the MacBook still lasts 3-4 times as long under the same workloads - The quality of the touchpad experience is vastly better on the MacBook, especially because of the excellent haptics (like it's almost magical how much it feels like you're clicking a physical button despite there not being one) - The audio quality from the built in speakers is no contest between the two, the Framework simply sounds like crap - The fans of the Framework seem to be necessary far more often and are whinier sounding than the ones on the MacBook - The display on the Framework doesn't look as good, even when calibrated (I haven't been able to figure out if this is just due to me comparing matte vs glossy here though)
The Framework's repairability, modularity, and openness just aren't enough for me to overlook all the negatives. I love and support the goals of Framework and I hope they find ways to improve to the point where it will be easier to choose their laptops over a MacBook.
Nope; it's not the same as the old MagSafe (it's actually the _third_ incompatible version).