> "As a consumer advocate, it's rare to see deeds of release with gag clauses — which is what this is."
I guess that offer is no longer valid since the fight hit the news. I wonder if we'll see more and more of these attempts to silence customers, as 1. companies get bigger and more powerful, and 2. regular people's ability to broadcast company wrongdoing over social media grows.
Refrigerator was 4 years old and out of stated warranty period
Refrigerator not sold to them by samsung or installed by samsung but by another party ("JB Hi-Fi").
Despite being out of warranty, family offered a refund - they declined it. An expert has called Samsungs behavior "concerning and unfair".
Notes:
Plenty of folks ignore almost all maintenance steps (cleaning coils, filter changes etc). Pulling the covers and looking around and cleaning even 1x per year would help longevity and catch problems earlier in many cases.
Having purchased appliances both personally and for a business - first call is usually to the store that sold us the item. These things are the one thing we get an extended warranty on.
The installers are absolutely not licensed plumbers or electricians! I wouldn't be surprised if a fair bit of damage is caused just in getting these items to their locations and installed. They are heavy and awkward.
Ask the repair tech who comes for first repair what most common issue is they are repairing - they often know right away (because they stock the parts etc etc). Some are avoidable / manageable.
The issue here isn't the cost of the fridge, it's the health impact. Declining a mere refund (that almost certainly comes with a waiver on other claims in addition to the gag clause) is the only reasonable thing to do, and I doubt that being out of warranty absolves Samsung from liability if they sold a dangerous product.
How do you know there's a health impact, or that this is a dangerous product?
The article has nothing supporting either of those claims in it.
The oil they use in refrigerators stinks to high heaven, and that's about it. "POE that has been exposed to moisture can emit a strong odor which I would say is closer to dirty socks".
> the company wasn't able to tell him what the chemical was or whether it could be harmful.
Odd how you are confident that you know what the chemical is when the company that manufactured the product doesn't.
And you don't need to know that there's a health impact to decline this settlement, you need to not know that there isn't. If there's even a small risk it's an extremely lowball offer. Especially given that according to another commenter here Australian law likely entitles them to that much without the NDA and release of liability.
The company knows what is in there. The company doesn't know what exactly they smelled since that smell is a product of chemical reaction between refrigerant, oil, plastic and electronics. The refrigerant itself, as it's mentioned in the article, doesn't smell.
Depending on the refrigerant used it might smell and be substantially more dangerous if it combusts. R1234yf turns into carbonyl fluoride when ignited, which is close to phosgene the WW1 poison gas.
>more dangerous if it combusts. R1234yf turns into carbonyl fluoride when ignited, which is close to phosgene the WW1 poison gas.
Sounds scary, but is there any reason to believe this actually would occur?
For instance, wikipedia lists "a propellant for the delivery of pharmaceuticals (e.g. bronchodilators), wine cork removers, gas dusters ("canned air")" as other uses for it. If it's really as dangerous at it's made out to be, shouldn't we be hearing more about this causing issues from other uses?
> Sounds scary, but is there any reason to believe this actually would occur?
A shitty Samsung fridge with a stalling compressor causing heat to build up? Frayed wires? Lots of possibilities.
I researched this for the first time after I had a compressed air get ignited by a spark while I was cleaning an appliance. It is absolutely a noxious smell and I had to evacuate the room.
As far as I know, that may be false for other than EU markets, R1234yf is used in airconditioners, not fridges. And it requires about 900C to combust. If it reached such temperatures in my house then carbonyl fluoride would be the last concern I would worry about.
I would assume that arcing could easily reach such temperatures locally without necessarily causing a fire (just like a laser cutter will turn basically anything not laser safe into deadly poison gas without igniting a self-sustaining fire).
"Dirty socks" is commonly how fume events on aircraft are described to smell, which is when oil from the engine makes it into the air conditioning system.
The health effects aren't fully understood, with claims ranging from them being harmless to causing severe neurological defects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fume_event
I once took 20mg of Adderall in the morning, dropped 3 hits of acid, took some molly half way in, drank a half case of beer, and smoked a pack of cigarettes. Chemicals are fun.
The whole article is about the lack of transparency on a situation involving a product Samsung designed which may or may not have serious health consequences, not about return policies
A fridge has to be of acceptable quality, safe, and one of the tests applied is durability - how long would an average consumer expect the product to last?
Fridges are commonly expected to last 6-12 years (ATO, consumer group advice)
Correct. Strictly speaking Australian consumers don't really need a warranty, which is a voluntary undertaking by a business to guarantee certain rights, unless that warranty exceeds those guarantees provided for in Australian consumer law. In this case the family is automatically entitled to repair, replacement, refund or cancellation for a reasonable time, where "reasonable" depends on the product or service as determined by the ACCC or the courts.
>where "reasonable" depends on the product or service as determined by the ACCC or the courts.
Is there a table of warranty lengths by product published by the ACCC? If not it seems like a regulatory nightmare because neither consumers nor manufacturer knows what their rights/obligations are. At least with standard warranties you know what you're getting into.
The price you paid relative to comparable products factors into it - more expensive goods are expected to last longer.
If you and the manufacturer disagree, you can always take it to tribunal to get a decision (and manufacturers never want it to get there so are motivated to resolve your concern before it comes to that).
Samsung also recalled a huge number of out of warranty phones due to significant safety risk of bad batteries. This should be investigated as a safety issue.
Installers don't need to be licensed plumbers or electricians. A refrigerator is a huge self-contained "appliance" with a power cord that is designed to be inserted into a wall receptacle and water plumbing connections that are designed to be installed similarly to a clothes washing machine. You can literally buy one yourself, screw the water connection(if needed) on and plug it into the wall. The only things you should not let the installer do is put a tap on a water line for the fridge or add or modify the receptacle. But provided you've already had a plumber or electrician in to do those things there's no need to spend the extra money to pay a tradesperson to open the refrigerator box and plug it in.
And to wit, every single refrigerator I've used has recommended maintenance that nobody ever does, and they have still lasted multiple decades. You don't even actually have to change the compressor oil like they tell you you should.
How is it relevant where they bought it or who installed it? If there was a problem with install, you would expect the failure to show up early, not five years later.
You mention maintenance items… There’s no reason a fridge sold in 2019 couldn’t include maintenance monitoring and a 7-segment error display. The filter needs a change? The coil is hot? Ok tell the human. My Miele washer and dryer do it.
Samsung appliances are garbage, I would never buy another one.
I bought a $3000 fridge from them and I can only assume the ice maker was, at best, designed by someone with an MBA. Instead of having a cavity that is part of the mold (like a previous model), they just bolted it in to the fridge side. Obviously humid air leaks in and ices it over every week.
Hahah.. "How is it relevant where they bought it or who installed it?"
Very relevant in many cases. Maybe you have experts installing things who read the instructions, but I'd say more installs then not have some kind of install error.
Super common but maybe not so serious including leveling issues, then clearance issues for all sorts of items but particularly affecting items that need heat exchange or ventilation. Then onto electrical / wiring screw ups, then install damage of various sorts.
People are buying very complex devices now, coupled with cost savings efforts by MFGs (everything built to basically minimal tolerance) and these are not you grandparents refrigerator anymore. By the time the items gets to your house it may have been VERY roughly treated - on and off a truck to the store, around the store, on and off a truck to your house, into your house etc etc. In many cases the installers are paid dirt money basically and these are big awkward heavy items.
This sounds pretty concerning: "Samsung's own compliance tool, used by retailers to check that stock complies with Australian standards, lists the model as being one that should be prioritised for sale because it could be non-compliant."
I think Australia has somewhat working consumer protection agencies, and if this is true (Samsung knowingly selling non-compliant products, and trying to sell them faster to make sure they're all sold before the non-compliance is discovered), I hope the sanctions are something truly discouraging (e.g. a fine corresponding to all revenue from sales of that model).
It's not likely as sinister as you make it out to be, I could not find out what "A2 regulation in June 2020" means, but I suspect they are phasing out older refrigerants, but allowing sale of existing stock.
For example cars need to switch from r134A as of 2022, but before that it's fine, and home A/C's need to switch from R410a as of the end of this year, but they can sell existing stock for another year.
So prioritizing for sale makes perfect sense, and doesn't indicate anything nefarious, just selling out of old stock, exactly as the law is suggesting.
Edit: I'm virtually certain this is R-134a being phased out in Australia in June of 2020. And I figured out A1 and A2 which are flammability ratings of refrigerants. With R-134a being A1, and the new ones being slightly more flammable and are rated as A2.
> "The [refrigerant] doesn't have a strong odour or flavour so the fact they could smell it, taste it, suggests there's something else that's been released," Professor Anderson said.
I was about to hit reply on the same thing. It could also be a tantalum capacitor from a power supply. They really stink when they go, to the point where you are forced to leave the room.
Speaking of refrigerators, are there any consumer level brands now that don't completely suck? It seems like longevity and reliability of refrigerators has fallen off a cliff lately. Major mfgs like Samsung and LG have serious issues with compressors dying early and it seems every fridge is loaded with features that mostly just shorten their lifetime.
Miele has a good reputation, and Bosch/Thermador seems to be working on building a solid brand after outsourcing their refrigeration for a long time (they're also getting into HVAC heat pumps).
I'm probably trading my piece of crap KitchenAid (Whirlpool) for a Bosch 800 pretty soon. Never get a french door fridge from Whirlpool.
A comment section on HN is probably the worst place to get this sort of answer. People buy relatively few fridges so you'd need hundreds of replies to get enough statistical power. This is on top of the problems that reviews have, like non-response bias.
edit: you can see this in action right now. There's one glowing review of whirlpool and one scathing review. I'm sure they're both honest, but what conclusion are you going to draw from that?
n=80,300, but paywalled. However, one interesting tidbit that isn't paywalled is how bad fridge reliability is
>Our results reveal that about a third of all refrigerators require repairs by the end of their fifth year of ownership, making them one of the least reliable appliances we analyze in our member surveys.
Buy a refrigerator without an ice maker or any "features." Most refrigerator reliability issues stem from these extra features. Compressors (the core component actually responsible for cooling the freezer and fridge) are going to fail at about the same rate across brands and models, from a bottom of the line whirlpool to top of the line Miele or kitchen aid. Compressor failure is not common.
If you really want all the reliability money can buy, buy a subzero fridge. But you're paying 10x for the same functionality (unless you really need extremely stable temperatures).
Another news organisation notes the model is SR520BLSTC.[1] The SR520BLSTC user manual states R600a (isobutane) is used as the refrigerant.[1] Isobutane has a boiling point of -12oC.
There are numerous case studies of people dieing from isobutane inhalation, but generally the exposure is deliberate such as sniffing isobutane from a camping stove canister, or spraying air freshener directly into the nose.[3] Cause of death appears to generally be due to hypoxia as isobutane is an asphyxiant, or ventricular fibrillation caused due to exertion in breathing.[3]
The impacted person stated "I started to have rapid breathing and my muscles went completely weak".[1] These reported symptoms appear to align with symptoms referred to in case studies of isobutane inhalation exposure where rapid breathing occurs, and the strain from this rapid breathing is thought to in some cases be the cause for ventricular fibrillation.[3]
How much isobutane is in a fridge? Unless they have a very cramped and poorly ventilated kitchen, you would need an absurd amount of refrigerant leaking to displace enough air to cause symptoms. Moreover wouldn't the high amounts of refrigerant leaking cause a hissing sound they could hear?
If the system were leaking refrigerant, wouldn't it rapidly stop working? It's supposed to be a closed loop. And it sounds as if it requires a fair bit of isobutane to cause problems, so if it's losing enough refrigerant to asphyxiate I'd think that it would soon stop refrigerating.
57 comments
[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 97.4 ms ] threadI guess that offer is no longer valid since the fight hit the news. I wonder if we'll see more and more of these attempts to silence customers, as 1. companies get bigger and more powerful, and 2. regular people's ability to broadcast company wrongdoing over social media grows.
Refrigerator was 4 years old and out of stated warranty period
Refrigerator not sold to them by samsung or installed by samsung but by another party ("JB Hi-Fi").
Despite being out of warranty, family offered a refund - they declined it. An expert has called Samsungs behavior "concerning and unfair".
Notes:
Plenty of folks ignore almost all maintenance steps (cleaning coils, filter changes etc). Pulling the covers and looking around and cleaning even 1x per year would help longevity and catch problems earlier in many cases.
Having purchased appliances both personally and for a business - first call is usually to the store that sold us the item. These things are the one thing we get an extended warranty on.
The installers are absolutely not licensed plumbers or electricians! I wouldn't be surprised if a fair bit of damage is caused just in getting these items to their locations and installed. They are heavy and awkward.
Ask the repair tech who comes for first repair what most common issue is they are repairing - they often know right away (because they stock the parts etc etc). Some are avoidable / manageable.
The article has nothing supporting either of those claims in it.
The oil they use in refrigerators stinks to high heaven, and that's about it. "POE that has been exposed to moisture can emit a strong odor which I would say is closer to dirty socks".
It means nothing in the context of this article. The refrigerant at hand here is R-134a and has zero health risks, in fact it's used in inhalers.
Odd how you are confident that you know what the chemical is when the company that manufactured the product doesn't.
And you don't need to know that there's a health impact to decline this settlement, you need to not know that there isn't. If there's even a small risk it's an extremely lowball offer. Especially given that according to another commenter here Australian law likely entitles them to that much without the NDA and release of liability.
Sounds scary, but is there any reason to believe this actually would occur?
For instance, wikipedia lists "a propellant for the delivery of pharmaceuticals (e.g. bronchodilators), wine cork removers, gas dusters ("canned air")" as other uses for it. If it's really as dangerous at it's made out to be, shouldn't we be hearing more about this causing issues from other uses?
A shitty Samsung fridge with a stalling compressor causing heat to build up? Frayed wires? Lots of possibilities.
I researched this for the first time after I had a compressed air get ignited by a spark while I was cleaning an appliance. It is absolutely a noxious smell and I had to evacuate the room.
The health effects aren't fully understood, with claims ranging from them being harmless to causing severe neurological defects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fume_event
If there is a chemical smell - open all windows, ventilate the room and STAY AWAY. That's a very basic and simple rule.
A fridge has to be of acceptable quality, safe, and one of the tests applied is durability - how long would an average consumer expect the product to last?
Fridges are commonly expected to last 6-12 years (ATO, consumer group advice)
Is there a table of warranty lengths by product published by the ACCC? If not it seems like a regulatory nightmare because neither consumers nor manufacturer knows what their rights/obligations are. At least with standard warranties you know what you're getting into.
The price you paid relative to comparable products factors into it - more expensive goods are expected to last longer.
If you and the manufacturer disagree, you can always take it to tribunal to get a decision (and manufacturers never want it to get there so are motivated to resolve your concern before it comes to that).
Samsung also recalled a huge number of out of warranty phones due to significant safety risk of bad batteries. This should be investigated as a safety issue.
And to wit, every single refrigerator I've used has recommended maintenance that nobody ever does, and they have still lasted multiple decades. You don't even actually have to change the compressor oil like they tell you you should.
You mention maintenance items… There’s no reason a fridge sold in 2019 couldn’t include maintenance monitoring and a 7-segment error display. The filter needs a change? The coil is hot? Ok tell the human. My Miele washer and dryer do it.
Samsung appliances are garbage, I would never buy another one.
I bought a $3000 fridge from them and I can only assume the ice maker was, at best, designed by someone with an MBA. Instead of having a cavity that is part of the mold (like a previous model), they just bolted it in to the fridge side. Obviously humid air leaks in and ices it over every week.
Very relevant in many cases. Maybe you have experts installing things who read the instructions, but I'd say more installs then not have some kind of install error.
Super common but maybe not so serious including leveling issues, then clearance issues for all sorts of items but particularly affecting items that need heat exchange or ventilation. Then onto electrical / wiring screw ups, then install damage of various sorts.
People are buying very complex devices now, coupled with cost savings efforts by MFGs (everything built to basically minimal tolerance) and these are not you grandparents refrigerator anymore. By the time the items gets to your house it may have been VERY roughly treated - on and off a truck to the store, around the store, on and off a truck to your house, into your house etc etc. In many cases the installers are paid dirt money basically and these are big awkward heavy items.
I think Australia has somewhat working consumer protection agencies, and if this is true (Samsung knowingly selling non-compliant products, and trying to sell them faster to make sure they're all sold before the non-compliance is discovered), I hope the sanctions are something truly discouraging (e.g. a fine corresponding to all revenue from sales of that model).
For example cars need to switch from r134A as of 2022, but before that it's fine, and home A/C's need to switch from R410a as of the end of this year, but they can sell existing stock for another year.
So prioritizing for sale makes perfect sense, and doesn't indicate anything nefarious, just selling out of old stock, exactly as the law is suggesting.
Edit: I'm virtually certain this is R-134a being phased out in Australia in June of 2020. And I figured out A1 and A2 which are flammability ratings of refrigerants. With R-134a being A1, and the new ones being slightly more flammable and are rated as A2.
Article is interesting because of the non-disclosure clause stuff. Which, while not totally surprising I guess, is pretty scummy.
> "The [refrigerant] doesn't have a strong odour or flavour so the fact they could smell it, taste it, suggests there's something else that's been released," Professor Anderson said.
Burning electronics does have a strong, distinct odor. If they are unfamiliar with that, its totally plausible that's all that they smelled.
Refrigerators are a few PCBs, a heat pump, a closed loop refrigerant, and a cooler. There really isn't anything especially exotic there.
I'm probably trading my piece of crap KitchenAid (Whirlpool) for a Bosch 800 pretty soon. Never get a french door fridge from Whirlpool.
edit: you can see this in action right now. There's one glowing review of whirlpool and one scathing review. I'm sure they're both honest, but what conclusion are you going to draw from that?
On the other I don't know of a better one ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
n=80,300, but paywalled. However, one interesting tidbit that isn't paywalled is how bad fridge reliability is
>Our results reveal that about a third of all refrigerators require repairs by the end of their fifth year of ownership, making them one of the least reliable appliances we analyze in our member surveys.
A basic fridge like this will last you a long time: https://www.costco.com/whirlpool-20-cu.-ft.-top-freezer-refr...
If you really want all the reliability money can buy, buy a subzero fridge. But you're paying 10x for the same functionality (unless you really need extremely stable temperatures).
Reliable after 40+ years of refinement and dead easy to troubleshiot.
There are numerous case studies of people dieing from isobutane inhalation, but generally the exposure is deliberate such as sniffing isobutane from a camping stove canister, or spraying air freshener directly into the nose.[3] Cause of death appears to generally be due to hypoxia as isobutane is an asphyxiant, or ventricular fibrillation caused due to exertion in breathing.[3]
The impacted person stated "I started to have rapid breathing and my muscles went completely weak".[1] These reported symptoms appear to align with symptoms referred to in case studies of isobutane inhalation exposure where rapid breathing occurs, and the strain from this rapid breathing is thought to in some cases be the cause for ventricular fibrillation.[3]
[1] https://www.9news.com.au/national/victorian-family-say-samsu...
[2] https://downloadcenter.samsung.com/content/UM/202109/2021091...
[3] https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/source/hsdb/608#section=Hum...