I'm so happy to see one of the greatest 20th century American poets quoted right at the beginning! Elizabeth Bishop was amazing! Something fun to do at work is to read her correspondence with another great 20th century poet, Robert Lowell (Words in Air: The Complete Correspondence Between Elizabeth Bishop and Robert Lowell).
* Find meaning outside work, with the five hours per week you have between working full time, commuting (hopefully not as much anymore), and taking care of your kids and yourself. Hours during which you're completely exhausted and mentally drained.
* The same advice again, but while touching grass.
* Become labeled as negative, get union-busted.
* Quit and go to another bullshit job where the exact same cycle will repeat.
Look, I'm not actually saying this advice is wrong, or that it should be better advice. I'm saying that this stated goal:
> When I set out to finally put all these thoughts down in text, I did not want it to be all doom and gloom
was not achieved by the author. It is all doom and gloom. Because bullshit work really does kill your soul, and the best advice we can come up with for dealing with that is awful. Many, many smart people have spent a LOT of money and effort organizing the American capitalist system (and those in other countries, to varying degrees of success) so that you have absolutely no power to improve your situation, ever. Turning us all back into serfs is their intentional, focused goal, and has been for many decades, and they are invested in it, and they are good at it. It's only going to continue to get worse. You cannot do anything about it. Everything only ever gets worse.
As someone who has spent years doing unimportant work that I was able to find some meaning in, and who has made sacrifices in order to expand my opportunities and eventually consistently find work that is important and meaningful, I totally disagree with your message.
I understand there are a lot of pitfalls people can get stuck in and most things aren't as good as they could be... But that doesn't mean everything is awful or that everything is getting worse overall on average.
I mean this in the most constructive way possible: I think you could benefit a lot from cognitive behavioral therapy.
Few things that helped me tremendously...
Victor Frankel - Man's Search for Meaning
Marcus Aurelius - Meditations (or Ryan Holiday if you don't have the patience)
I am not religious but this prayer helped me a lot:
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.
You aren't asking for help, and I understand that these suggestions may just piss you off... But if there is a small chance they help you or anyone else who sees them that feels similar to you, then they are worth sharing.
The world doesn't get better with apathy or victimhood or defeatism, it gets better by accepting reality as it really is and then getting to work on it. You are surrounded by meaningful work, it just seems like you have been tricked into not seeing it.
For making things better personally I agree with you on changing the mindset in the ways you mentioned. Im agnostic leaning a bit towards atheism and yet I found praying help bring serentiy sometimes. There are many ways to bring serenity. It’s just cope.
However, from a systemic point of view we can’t all nor are all of us capable in this ballancing act of taking a meaningless job and moving the needle on the meaningless scale on the side. Humanity is loosing the battle.
Bullshit jobs do turn us into serfs of sorts.
I think we might be conflating meaning, importance, 3rd party benefit, and satisfaction (at least).
I'm not advocating for anyone to stay in what they feel is a bullshit job while trying to fake some perception of meaning. If you're unsatisfied with your work for ~two straight months, absolutely make a change.
Is the problem that you're doing work that doesn't benefit anyone else? That you're constrained to only do it in an unproductive way? That you personally are not satisfied by the work? That you receive no gratitude for your work? That you're no longer learning or growing? Not making enough money? Something else?
What I'm really having trouble agreeing with is that the system is so broken that it's futile to try to improve your situation, and that this constraint is getting worse. It's so far from my experience that while it might be true in some cases I know it's not true globally.
I started out minimum wage picking up garbage, working front line retail, etc. barely making ends meet. I used a significant portion of my free time to learn new skills. I sacrificed hanging out with friends on the weekends through most of my 20s. I worked hard. Progress was slow at first, but I built momentum. Over the years I got more and better opportunities. Now my work is meaningful, challenging, impactful and pays well. (I'm in my 30s)
When I hear someone say that they are trapped in serdom, or that capitalism is the problem, and that it's futile to try and improve their circumstances, I can't help but think they have been tricked into sabotaging themselves.
Some people truely are stuck due to disability, but people who have the ability to be productive and have just given up are wrong.
If you want a meaningful job then you can just go get one. There is plenty of work available in construction labor. What could be more meaningful than building homes for people. Or go work in an elder care facility. They are always hiring attendants and you can make a real difference in the lives of the patients.
The entire concept of "bullshit jobs"/"meaningless work" just sounds like mental illness to me.
> We can’t ascribe an absolute worth to hairdressers or service workers (though I would argue the pandemic has taught us we highly undervalue these kinds of workers)
> 37% and 40% (respectively) of people believed their job did not make a meaningful contribution to the world.
These two statements seem to be related. These people undervalue themselves as much as others. That's antisocial behavior as much as sheer ignorance.
On the contrary, why should you enjoy your job just because some rich person “gives it to you” (more realistically, “foists it upon the public”)? Sounds like a mental illness to only value yourself as the amount of economic impact you could achieve.
When I was younger I had a friend that quit a job because they made her wear a uniform and she thought the uniform was degrading and ugly. Is she not valuing herself more than her employer in that instance?
As someone who has done many types of menial labor, I understand we all need to work to make our society function. But there are kinds of work that are so lifeless or degrading they affect the mental health of the employee. Where that line is is different for each person, but to pretend it doesn’t exist is naive.
I was commenting on the idea of work being "meaningless". That's only partially subjective.
The way I see it the meaning of work can be broken down into at least a few parts: the objective results, benefit to worker, benefit to employer, and benefit to society.
The benefits are the subjective part that you and others are focusing on, but the objective results are what I'm commenting on. For work to be truly meaningless, the results would have to be obsoleted by technological or social progress such that there is no demand.
An example is post-industrial handmade goods. Some people may call the effort to produce such goods "meaningless", yet the demand remains so it's anything but.
This is how I am distinguishing work from mere cost, price, or whatever the employer or employee wants. Tons of stuff is necessary in this world that sucks to make, doesn't make any money, and that broader society reluctantly agrees is necessary.
"Overall, meaningless work commits a Spiritual Violence against a person. It's an attack on something not just physical, not just mental, but on something that is the essence of being. It wears away our sense of self."
The author was unto something big, but didn't expand this idea.
I'll try to explain it this way. The only true reason we live at all is we desire self expression. Iirc, the eastern literature calls it tanha - the desire for material existence. However if this outlet is clogged, the desire for self expression doesn't go away. Like a stream of water, when it encounters an obstacle, it takes a different path or overflows in a disorganised manner. The latter corresponds to spiritual self-destruction.
I feel like I have a meaningful job now. I'm certainly not making a large impact on the world, but I'd like to think there's a small number of people out there who would appreciate my work if they knew what I do.
I've also worked bullshit jobs where I seriously felt that standing by a roadside with a sign that says "new car wash" would have been a more valuable use of my time. It is emotionally draining, at least for me.
Having been in both situations, trying to find meaning outside of work didn't cut it for me. For many people, our jobs are a large part of our lives and our identity, so when our jobs lack meaning, it's simply too great a void to fill outside of work.
Of course, I can't speak for everyone. People are diverse, and I'm sure there are lots of people who couldn't care less if they work a bullshit job, so long as they get paid every couple weeks. But there are also lots of people who want to take pride in their work. Heck, if you're commenting here on hackernews, good chance you fall under the latter group.
Most work is meaningless, increasing clicks, increasing engagement, etc
Unless you are curing cancer, fighting companies doing bad things, etc many jobs are very far removed from any meaning. But does life have meaning, you need to answer that yourself first
To be honest, in a way, even fighting cancer can seem meaningless. Of course, on a small scale, it is meaningful because it helps people. But on a larger scale, one could argue that we have traded a fulfilling life where we have purpose for a technologically-enslaved one. And in this enslaved one, we are locked in cages and eating/breathing so much artificial chemicals that have actually increased the cancer rate for some kinds of cancers [1].
Thus, fighting cancer is really just making a small correction to a fundamentally unsustainable system to allow the unsustainable system to appear less harmful, but in reality it becomes just less harmful per unit time so that the harm accumulates in later generations. (Lower risk of cancer means lower perceived risk of polluting and hence less backlash against polluting that eventually accumulates so high that the risk becomes even greater than before the medical amelioration of cancer rates.)
Thus, I think one must go beyond mere cut-and-dried solutions to find meaning in life. One must figure out what is right and go towards that as best as you can, even if in reality one may never reach that point.
“Does life have meaning” is an nonsense question. You can choose to attach meaning to your actions and your environment. Anecdotally, doing so is very rewarding. You could say the very definition of “rewarding” demands that meaning of some kind exist, so to have a rewarding life you have to make some kind of value structure and then stick to it.
Religious people are actually very good at this and can be learned from. For example I’ve learned about all the plants in my area and now taking a walk is very rich in meaning. How are the birches doing this year? Which roses bloom first? When will the fig tree on 23rd and main be ripe? These are only interesting questions to someone who values plant life.
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is a book that outlines how “quality” and “caring” are two sides of the same coin. You can’t have anything of quality including your existence unless you care about it. A Maserati is just another car if you don’t know how to drive.
Wrt/ work, having a “meaningless” job is one in which your actions aren’t tied to any of your value structures. Maybe the answer is to make more values. But jobs today seem more disconnected, remote, isolated, fungible, and temporary than in the recent past. This is likely to make us as a culture more anxious, closed off, cynical, and defeated. And that is a tragedy.
...in coding. Coding jobs by neccessity are about adding new functionalities, and most of the useful stuff has been written already. So now, whether you're coding for a power plant, a yogurt factory, a bank, or Amazon, you're probably working on some far-fetched idea sold by PM to higher-ups in hopes of improving their career.
But, there are other kinds of jobs, and many are far from meaningless. There are still many millions of people working everyday to make sure basic services are available to people.
The kind of work the article means is where there is no measurable impact to the work done. These jobs are easily found in large bureaucracies where a wide range of activities exist just so that they are performed, but nobody would notice it if they weren't performed.
I don't know if "meaningful" vs "meaningless" as much as "hate it deeply and sincerely and there's not a thing I do that I find interesting or useful" vs "at least I don't hate it and might use one or two things from what I learn here".
I had the former and couldn't stay in the job. Pay was good, stress was low but just couldn't go along with it.
Disclaimer: Controversial take, feel free to disagree, but take a moment to as well to think what I am saying.
What is this trend of citing “meaningless” work I see recently?
How is a work defined as “meaningless”?
To me, if a work has any contribution, then it is highly meaningful. World is not that simple.
For example, if someone was employed to simply sit at the door and count the number of people coming in and then subtract the number of people going out for 8h, it may be considered a bullsh!t job by many dimensions. But to me, it is very valuable as it just employed someone who is willing to do it and offers them a mean of paying their bills and survive. It is boring as f!ck? Yes, but the sole factor that it allowed someone to survive is meaning enough.
We all do not have to be brainless servants of the tribe constantly rat racing to find meaning(i.e. pursuing whatever the govt or some industry considers lacking adequate qualified people to work for). As long as something that allows a person to have their basics met, it is immensely valuable.
I hate this constant meaning finding in everything. Yes curing cancer for example brings immense meaning, but not every person on earth is capable or have the socio economical benefit of pursuing that education and mental sharp to carry out the R&D and by the definition of bullsh@t work, even curing the cancer is kind or nit much because death is inevitable anyways.
So yes, we need to stop this constant pseudo rat race of finding meaning and get led into whatever the overlords tell the media to brainwash us into believeing as meaningful.
> What is this trend of citing “meaningless” work I see recently?
I find it good that people (finally?) question what they are doing for a good part of their time, whether it's aligned with their values, and seek to improve things.
The world is being destroyed by people who employ people who are happy as long as they are doing technically interesting stuff and/or stuff that pays well. I find it depressing.
People should check that whatever they are doing has meaning for them, if they can afford it.
I'll say one thing. When I was most highly paid, I found the work the most meaningless. So I quit. It's incredible how our system has slowly evolved so that making a good living now usually means pushing consumerism forward. Google is the poster child for that. Working as a programmer there is a well-paid job and it's primary aim is pushing needless consumption which is the reason why we have such environmental disasters now.
> When I was most highly paid, I found the work the most meaningless.
And the flipside is most socially meaningful work (things required to keep our society functioning smoothly) are either underpaid or completely unpaid. Teachers, care givers, nurses, EMTs, police, musicians, chefs, and similar professions are systematically denied money because it's assumed the person should gain satisfaction solely from their work. Asking for money AND fulfilling work is considered greedy.
High salary is a reward only for the people who suffer through long unrewarding hours (usually through endless bullshit of their own making).
26 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 73.3 ms ] thread* Find meaning outside work, with the five hours per week you have between working full time, commuting (hopefully not as much anymore), and taking care of your kids and yourself. Hours during which you're completely exhausted and mentally drained.
* The same advice again, but while touching grass.
* Become labeled as negative, get union-busted.
* Quit and go to another bullshit job where the exact same cycle will repeat.
Look, I'm not actually saying this advice is wrong, or that it should be better advice. I'm saying that this stated goal:
> When I set out to finally put all these thoughts down in text, I did not want it to be all doom and gloom
was not achieved by the author. It is all doom and gloom. Because bullshit work really does kill your soul, and the best advice we can come up with for dealing with that is awful. Many, many smart people have spent a LOT of money and effort organizing the American capitalist system (and those in other countries, to varying degrees of success) so that you have absolutely no power to improve your situation, ever. Turning us all back into serfs is their intentional, focused goal, and has been for many decades, and they are invested in it, and they are good at it. It's only going to continue to get worse. You cannot do anything about it. Everything only ever gets worse.
I'm just responding to the end of your comment.
As someone who has spent years doing unimportant work that I was able to find some meaning in, and who has made sacrifices in order to expand my opportunities and eventually consistently find work that is important and meaningful, I totally disagree with your message.
I understand there are a lot of pitfalls people can get stuck in and most things aren't as good as they could be... But that doesn't mean everything is awful or that everything is getting worse overall on average.
I mean this in the most constructive way possible: I think you could benefit a lot from cognitive behavioral therapy.
Few things that helped me tremendously...
Victor Frankel - Man's Search for Meaning Marcus Aurelius - Meditations (or Ryan Holiday if you don't have the patience)
I am not religious but this prayer helped me a lot:
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, The courage to change the things I can, And the wisdom to know the difference.
You aren't asking for help, and I understand that these suggestions may just piss you off... But if there is a small chance they help you or anyone else who sees them that feels similar to you, then they are worth sharing.
The world doesn't get better with apathy or victimhood or defeatism, it gets better by accepting reality as it really is and then getting to work on it. You are surrounded by meaningful work, it just seems like you have been tricked into not seeing it.
However, from a systemic point of view we can’t all nor are all of us capable in this ballancing act of taking a meaningless job and moving the needle on the meaningless scale on the side. Humanity is loosing the battle. Bullshit jobs do turn us into serfs of sorts.
I'm not advocating for anyone to stay in what they feel is a bullshit job while trying to fake some perception of meaning. If you're unsatisfied with your work for ~two straight months, absolutely make a change.
Is the problem that you're doing work that doesn't benefit anyone else? That you're constrained to only do it in an unproductive way? That you personally are not satisfied by the work? That you receive no gratitude for your work? That you're no longer learning or growing? Not making enough money? Something else?
What I'm really having trouble agreeing with is that the system is so broken that it's futile to try to improve your situation, and that this constraint is getting worse. It's so far from my experience that while it might be true in some cases I know it's not true globally.
I started out minimum wage picking up garbage, working front line retail, etc. barely making ends meet. I used a significant portion of my free time to learn new skills. I sacrificed hanging out with friends on the weekends through most of my 20s. I worked hard. Progress was slow at first, but I built momentum. Over the years I got more and better opportunities. Now my work is meaningful, challenging, impactful and pays well. (I'm in my 30s)
When I hear someone say that they are trapped in serdom, or that capitalism is the problem, and that it's futile to try and improve their circumstances, I can't help but think they have been tricked into sabotaging themselves.
Some people truely are stuck due to disability, but people who have the ability to be productive and have just given up are wrong.
> We can’t ascribe an absolute worth to hairdressers or service workers (though I would argue the pandemic has taught us we highly undervalue these kinds of workers)
> 37% and 40% (respectively) of people believed their job did not make a meaningful contribution to the world.
These two statements seem to be related. These people undervalue themselves as much as others. That's antisocial behavior as much as sheer ignorance.
When I was younger I had a friend that quit a job because they made her wear a uniform and she thought the uniform was degrading and ugly. Is she not valuing herself more than her employer in that instance?
As someone who has done many types of menial labor, I understand we all need to work to make our society function. But there are kinds of work that are so lifeless or degrading they affect the mental health of the employee. Where that line is is different for each person, but to pretend it doesn’t exist is naive.
The way I see it the meaning of work can be broken down into at least a few parts: the objective results, benefit to worker, benefit to employer, and benefit to society.
The benefits are the subjective part that you and others are focusing on, but the objective results are what I'm commenting on. For work to be truly meaningless, the results would have to be obsoleted by technological or social progress such that there is no demand.
An example is post-industrial handmade goods. Some people may call the effort to produce such goods "meaningless", yet the demand remains so it's anything but.
This is how I am distinguishing work from mere cost, price, or whatever the employer or employee wants. Tons of stuff is necessary in this world that sucks to make, doesn't make any money, and that broader society reluctantly agrees is necessary.
The author was unto something big, but didn't expand this idea.
I'll try to explain it this way. The only true reason we live at all is we desire self expression. Iirc, the eastern literature calls it tanha - the desire for material existence. However if this outlet is clogged, the desire for self expression doesn't go away. Like a stream of water, when it encounters an obstacle, it takes a different path or overflows in a disorganised manner. The latter corresponds to spiritual self-destruction.
I've also worked bullshit jobs where I seriously felt that standing by a roadside with a sign that says "new car wash" would have been a more valuable use of my time. It is emotionally draining, at least for me.
Having been in both situations, trying to find meaning outside of work didn't cut it for me. For many people, our jobs are a large part of our lives and our identity, so when our jobs lack meaning, it's simply too great a void to fill outside of work.
Of course, I can't speak for everyone. People are diverse, and I'm sure there are lots of people who couldn't care less if they work a bullshit job, so long as they get paid every couple weeks. But there are also lots of people who want to take pride in their work. Heck, if you're commenting here on hackernews, good chance you fall under the latter group.
Unless you are curing cancer, fighting companies doing bad things, etc many jobs are very far removed from any meaning. But does life have meaning, you need to answer that yourself first
Thus, fighting cancer is really just making a small correction to a fundamentally unsustainable system to allow the unsustainable system to appear less harmful, but in reality it becomes just less harmful per unit time so that the harm accumulates in later generations. (Lower risk of cancer means lower perceived risk of polluting and hence less backlash against polluting that eventually accumulates so high that the risk becomes even greater than before the medical amelioration of cancer rates.)
Thus, I think one must go beyond mere cut-and-dried solutions to find meaning in life. One must figure out what is right and go towards that as best as you can, even if in reality one may never reach that point.
[1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12940-020-00670-2
Religious people are actually very good at this and can be learned from. For example I’ve learned about all the plants in my area and now taking a walk is very rich in meaning. How are the birches doing this year? Which roses bloom first? When will the fig tree on 23rd and main be ripe? These are only interesting questions to someone who values plant life.
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is a book that outlines how “quality” and “caring” are two sides of the same coin. You can’t have anything of quality including your existence unless you care about it. A Maserati is just another car if you don’t know how to drive.
Wrt/ work, having a “meaningless” job is one in which your actions aren’t tied to any of your value structures. Maybe the answer is to make more values. But jobs today seem more disconnected, remote, isolated, fungible, and temporary than in the recent past. This is likely to make us as a culture more anxious, closed off, cynical, and defeated. And that is a tragedy.
Maybe there is just a lot of bullshit in communications-based work, including IT
One works on increasing clicks, or rather driving traffic to an admittedly important website.
One is a librarian, and does Kids Storytime.
One keeps streaming infrastructure for a major broadcaster alive.
One works at a famous zoo.
One is a nurse.
Out of all of them, only the first could really be meaningless.
But, there are other kinds of jobs, and many are far from meaningless. There are still many millions of people working everyday to make sure basic services are available to people.
I had the former and couldn't stay in the job. Pay was good, stress was low but just couldn't go along with it.
What is this trend of citing “meaningless” work I see recently?
How is a work defined as “meaningless”?
To me, if a work has any contribution, then it is highly meaningful. World is not that simple.
For example, if someone was employed to simply sit at the door and count the number of people coming in and then subtract the number of people going out for 8h, it may be considered a bullsh!t job by many dimensions. But to me, it is very valuable as it just employed someone who is willing to do it and offers them a mean of paying their bills and survive. It is boring as f!ck? Yes, but the sole factor that it allowed someone to survive is meaning enough.
We all do not have to be brainless servants of the tribe constantly rat racing to find meaning(i.e. pursuing whatever the govt or some industry considers lacking adequate qualified people to work for). As long as something that allows a person to have their basics met, it is immensely valuable.
I hate this constant meaning finding in everything. Yes curing cancer for example brings immense meaning, but not every person on earth is capable or have the socio economical benefit of pursuing that education and mental sharp to carry out the R&D and by the definition of bullsh@t work, even curing the cancer is kind or nit much because death is inevitable anyways.
So yes, we need to stop this constant pseudo rat race of finding meaning and get led into whatever the overlords tell the media to brainwash us into believeing as meaningful.
I find it good that people (finally?) question what they are doing for a good part of their time, whether it's aligned with their values, and seek to improve things.
The world is being destroyed by people who employ people who are happy as long as they are doing technically interesting stuff and/or stuff that pays well. I find it depressing.
People should check that whatever they are doing has meaning for them, if they can afford it.
Why would you be against this?
And the flipside is most socially meaningful work (things required to keep our society functioning smoothly) are either underpaid or completely unpaid. Teachers, care givers, nurses, EMTs, police, musicians, chefs, and similar professions are systematically denied money because it's assumed the person should gain satisfaction solely from their work. Asking for money AND fulfilling work is considered greedy.
High salary is a reward only for the people who suffer through long unrewarding hours (usually through endless bullshit of their own making).
Friedrich Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols
Meaning is in the eye of the beholder. For most people in most of history their work just meant to bring food on the table.