Ask HN: Every day feels like prison
Man here, mid thirties. "Stuck" in a boring, but comfortable, 9-5 in tech. Trying to build a business on the side.
Every day feels like prison. I don't care about tech anymore in the way I used to care. I don't like working with people anymore. I hate the mental constraints of 9-5, hence I'm trying to build a business.
But the business doesn't work either. Most days I struggle to find any force to drag myself out of bed and do bare minimum for yet another day. After my day job I feel so exhausted that I can barely find desire to work on the business.
Most days feel like groundhog day. I'm not depressed. I train regularly (4-5 times a week), I don't abuse alcohol and never touched drugs. I did big change in my life recently: quit my soul crashing job, went to travel for extended period, moved to a different country, found a different job. It was fun while it lasted, but now I'm back to the same place I tried to escape back then, albeit in a different physical location and work place.
I have a comfortable life, nor luxury, neither poverty. Other than sport and building my business, I don't have any other hobbies or goals I pursuit. I'm in a relationship. I feel like I tick all "middle class" boxes, and yet I'm unhappy. I get scared when I realize that this is my life for the next 30-40 years.
I want to change something but I don't know what. Anyone been in similar situation and was able to escape?
161 comments
[ 0.26 ms ] story [ 211 ms ] threadOr it could be ADHD or a plethora of other things.
So you'll get the same advice as anyone else who feels generally bad - talk to a doctor. Maybe there is a medical thing going on. Maybe there is a mental thing going on. Ask a couple professionals to evaluate you, and maybe you'll find a path to improve things.
It amazes me how much the brain can lie to you like that. And really, when you consider the spectrum of mental illness, anhedonia is almost on the milder side. Of course, it doesn't feel that way at all when it really gets going
Dying from cancer makes me feel that way too: https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=40970295 In my case, I can't really speak any more. Until mid-June I could eat pureed foods, and now I can't even do that.
You only live once. Make some changes. Deepen friendships. Focus on romantic partner. Life is not about you, it's about the people you're with and who are around you.
Where did you travel and what did you see? I was away in SEA for five years in my twenties and it changed me in very positive ways.
Ultimately, life and experiences are about people and interactions with them, so maybe something in there that you could optimize. Only thoughts tho, no concrete advice I can give.
I do think that figuring this out on your own is a fun little journey in of itself.
I did this, but in my 20s. Realized that wherever I went, I'd be there too. That realization shook me and I started to work to become more comfortable with who I was and what I wanted. Some of that was reading, a bit of therapy, but mostly just examining my desires and accepting them rather than thinking about what I "should want to do".
> Anyone been in similar situation and was able to escape?
I think you are asking about escaping the situation, but I think escaping the fantasy of a magically different life is a better goal. Things that I did that helped:
* trying new things that you dream of. If you think working on a farm is going to change your life, try it. If you think working in a different field will, try that. (I see you doing this to some extent with your business.)
* looking at your financial condition and seeing where it leaves you. Sometimes we stay in jobs because we feel we have to, but what steps can you take to not. There's some flexibility in software to go to 4 days a week or contract. Maybe that kind of job is a better fit for you. But check the finances first.
* pick big fun goals and treat the job as a means to that end. Could be more travel or other experiences.
It sounds like you're in need of a Purpose. Like many folks in modern times.
Casually and broadly speaking, I'd say you have a couple of paths forward. Neither is a short-term holistic solution. These paths aren't mutually exclusive either.
1. Focus on creating and solidifying a family
Many many people trudge through boring and uninspiring work, all for purpose of providing and protecting for a family. There's great motivation and satisfaction in this. Don't be afraid of traditional gender roles and arrangements, and take pride in this accomplishment. Find good role models and mentors for this early, to help understand how to think about these challenges and gain fulfillment from them.
2. Refactor and keep trying with clear short-term goals
Regarding your business(es). The majority of successfully independent people have tried numerous things before succeeding. Repeatedly I hear the successful people say to keep trying. It's hard.
So, keep trying. Maybe you need to diversify your efforts and try some different services, products, businesses. Whatever your focus, set some more specific and short-term goals. When you have clearer goals, and you focus on those goals (with action), then other things like the 9-5 lose attention and focus. You shift from ruminating on the frustrations and instead attend to the goals and the possible.
Good luck!
Reminds me of this podcast on "Vampires, Life Choices, and Transformation": https://www.econtalk.org/l-a-paul-on-vampires-life-choices-a...
Seriously, there is a VERY good reason men are refusing to start families in the US and brith rates are dropping. I tell my son and all young men I meet, "DO NOT get married or have kids in America until they rollback no fault divorce". Until then all financial incentives are for the woman to walk away as soon as you have any assets or substantial income. You saying it's "underrated" is a joke I hope, many of us would LOVE to have a family but financial incentives and society are against it.
The laws are slowly changing but places like Ohio are still in the dark ages, defaulting to 100% custody for the mother even AFTER paternity is legally established!
We are fighting for the passage of Ohio House Bill 14 that defaults to 50/50 custody but people like the Ohio House Bar Association and lawyers fight to keep us in the dark ages while the profit wildly.
Lots of reasons for birth rates dropping, for sure, according to data: https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/issue-bri...
Maybe consider defying gender roles -- and not just those roles, all the expectations that brought you to this point.
The OP's post resonates pretty deeply with me - I've been disillusioned with my career (and my expectations of it) for a long time. Expectations met reality, and I, too, am unhappy with the status quo.
Okay, maybe lean into a family. Maybe don't, and don't buy into the traditional gender roles. Maybe find some way give up all the expectations you've had - and cultivate your own happiness in defiance of what has been indoctrinated into you your entire life. College, careers, marriages...perhaps all of these institutions should be questioned as you forge your own path.
Side note: I have nothing figured out. I have only just recognized that I am not fulfilled by my career and that working for $GIANT_MEGACORP in $PRESTEGIOUS_ROLE does not give me purpose. My extended mid-life crisis continues.
It's also interesting how mental framing can dramatically change outcomes. There are many people out in the world building widgets. Some people try doing it for the love of the widget. Other research indicates that fulfillment in building widgets only comes after getting good at it and practicing that craft. Then others do it solely to earn money for family, hobbies, travel. This mental framing for each individual seems very related to purpose and positive outcomes.
In pervious times there were more options because there was very little divorce and people, for the most part, paired for life, which meant one-to-one pairing was easier, and, for people who didn't pair up, there were options such as monasteries, convents, etc
I am not an expert, just an old man, so take this advice for what it's worth: perhaps try getting involved with a church in a volunteer capacity and really focus on volunteering/helping other people. This may lead to finding someone you are compatible with and, if it does not, will give you a family-like (with all the good & bad associated with that) environment in which to connect with other people.
Take care of you health (sleep, exercise, and eat well), dress in a put together fashion, take care of hygiene, have interests that excite you and you can share with others, and finally socialize more.
I think the best piece of concise wisdom I've ever read is, "to be interesting, be interested". Meaning not only to have hobbies and interests, but to be interested in the people around you.
You've also got to be be brutally honest with yourself about your prospects.
Pretend for a moment that mate desirability is objective and quantifiable, and that we've got every available woman in your area charted on a bell curve of desirability. The top 0.01% will say NO to you every time, because they're looking for a male in the top 0.01% of desirability (i.e. Gavin Newsome lookin' motherfuckers with Marth's Vineyard money). Meanwhile, the bottom 0.01% will say YES every time, because you're a HUGE catch from their perspective. Somewhere in the middle are many, many women who would be interested in you.
If you're struggling to find women who are interested in you, the cause is likely either A) not searching in earnest, or B) you're over-estimating your own desirability, and thus fishing in unproductive waters.
Myself, I think my problem was that I didn't want the job. I'm not even that thrilled about having to work my actual job.
>Darwinism (as you imply, it makes you well rounded, almost like an Aristotelian Happy person, without the virtue ethics.)
>Utilitarianism(some combination of advancing humanity to reduce pain and increase pleasure)
>Hedonism(Nothing matters, enjoy the sensory experience)
This is terrible advice to someone you know virtually nothing about, other than the three paragraphs they chose to type out about themselves. The first part, fine, it only affects a consenting adult. But I always hesitate to cheerfully tell someone to go ahead and sign up for a minimum of 18 years of responsibility for a human being, a human being that you'll be responsible for molding into a happy, healthy human being - a thing that's surprisingly easy to fuck up to the detriment of not only them, but everyone they touch.
This advice is slightly more irresponsible than suggesting to someone that they get a face tattoo.
OP: "Every day feels like prison."
HN Advice: "What you need is an irrevocable, lifelong commitment! Get married and have children!"
This is my advice, I am sincere in it and I feel that, given their presentation of the facts of their life, it is likely to be the most effective way to grow as a human. Note that I do mention that it will give them purpose and suffering, not happiness as they current conceive of it.
I don't suggest doing it to people as a form of therapy.
Your advice is bad.
I don't think this conversation is useful past this point.
People shouldn’t have kids to soothe their existential malaise; they should have kids because they actually want to devote their lives to nurturing another living thing. They are not a prop for your personal growth. This is really, really harmful advice.
FWIW given the rigidity of your thinking, I would really hate to be your kid by the time I started having opinions of my own.
P.S. You being out here responding to every single comment without hesitation and not reconsidering your position in the slightest is a sign of bad thinking.
Can confirm, it's torture.
"fine", "great" & "awesome"
of course there are many issues with this poll, i will not debate that fact, but at least we now have some data to work with!
Funny. You make a snide remark to OP "Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong." and immediately follow it up with "here's this opinion I disagree with that is bad thinking, because they don't immediately change it based on a few comments from internet strangers".
I really, really, hope you see the hypocrisy here.
In case you’d prefer something more prosaic: there is a difference between stating a contrary position and implying that other people’s positions indicate a defective worldview from which they should seek to free themselves. Or, more simply, there’s a difference between attacking a point and attacking a person.
I would also add that your last point is a bit of a straw man. I can scarcely clarify except by restating my point: spamming a thread with kneejerk retorts instead of taking the time to reflect on someone’s criticism is a dialectical red flag.
"Create children in order to cure your existential dread" only takes into consideration the needs & feelings of one of of the potentially many humans affected by such a choice.
Nobody fucking cares about the severe pain of the victims this sort of advice creates.
What if you have a child just to make yourself feel better and that kid goes on to have a shitty unhappy life wishing they'd never been born?
Sounds like a pretty shitty excuse in my ears, sorry.
Forcing a child to go through it all just to give your own life meaning? Totally selfish.
Using that as an argument for not having children is beyond silly.
Just say that you don't want children, it's ok, you don't have to make up reasons and try and convince others.
I think you're missing out on something amazing, but that's just my personal opinion.
And children are amazing.
I second this. I was in a similar position as the OP and after having a child the perspective has changed quite a bit and soul crushing jobs are a lot more bearable, meaning is no longer tied to the job.
Someone on either side of the argument who follows this advice may find it's not what they expected, for better or worse.
[1] https://i.redd.it/f2yrbleee7v81.jpg
Purpose frees you, not traps you further, if you embrace it.
It has also motivated me to take advantage of any free time I have. This baby is soon going to be forming a world view and I need to be there to show him the way. If that's true I need to learn a lot, and fast.
So you have a relationship, athletic hobbies, steady job, and side business?
That is luxury. It's just that you've convinced yourself it's prison for some reason.
> now I'm back to the same place I tried to escape back then, albeit in a different physical location and work place.
As they say, wherever you go, there you are.
Even if you found "luxury" then you'd convince yourself it wasn't enough.
Figure out how to solve that problem. Because quitting your job or whatever isn't going to work.
> I get scared when I realize that this is my life for the next 30-40 years.
If you get 30-40 more years of life, think about how lucky you'll be compared to the people who die of cancer in their 40s or 50s?
Everything we believe is the result of us convincing ourselves of something. If you tell me the sky is green and I believe it, it's because I decided to believe the sky is green not because you told me it was green.
He believes his life is not luxurious. Someone with no relationship and no job could easily look at his life and see it as luxurious. Someone like Jeff Bezos could look at this guy and be like, "that's not luxurious at all."
This guy can change how he views his life and he might be better off for it.
Or he can hate his life and bemoan his circumstances. Up to him.
I know which one I would try to do!
It might upend your world, but "Most days I struggle to find any force to drag myself out of bed and do bare minimum for yet another day." will never exist.
> I'm not depressed.
Hey man, are you sure?
Good luck.
also you:
> Every day feels like prison.
> Most days I struggle to find any force to drag myself out of bed
> After my day job I feel so exhausted that I can barely find desire to work on the business.
It kind of sounds like you might have depression. I suggest you check in with your primary care provider or a licensed therapist.
Citation needed.
Seriously, as someone who has struggled in much the same way, go talk to a therapist or psych. Depression doesn't mean being sad all the time. Finding little interest or pleasure in doing things is one of the core diagnostic criteria.
Jumping to a lifetime commitment as a kneejerk reaction is just so wild to me. Maybe start with a hobby? This guy is working a full time job and a side hustle, but doesn't seem to do anything for himself. What happens if he has kids and realizes he's still unfulfilled? It's not like he can just return them.
How tf are you gonna have the emotional capacity for kids if you don’t have it even for yourself??
This is just one of many views on the nature of happiness. For example, Buddhists have another view on it, including the possibility of achieving the unconditioned happiness (nibbana).
> Having children will affect your mindset and worldview; for almost everyone I know this change has been positive.
"Almost", so there's still a chance it could be a negative change on a personal level, even before considering genetic risks. I think a gamble like that can't be suggested to a depressed person.
As a counterpoint, I always have more capacity to help others than I do myself.
Also "spouse or children" – those are too different, Personally, I've been married for over a decade, but I don't have the emotional capacity to be a parent and desire to have kids in the first place.
Sure it is. And if it isn't, why would the suggestion to seek medical treatment be a more universal solution?
>and also exposing both the potential parent and child to the risk of lifelong unhappiness together.
That is a warped perspective.
Don't you think there's a difference between suggesting that someone start a family (and itemizing benefits of that life path), and FORCING someone to start a family? If OP does not want a family, they don't have to have a family. Geez.
This what leads to deeply affected people: being born and raised because the parents had some secondary goal in mind and needed children for that goal. Can be searching for meaning in life, social pressure, material benefits or even "our beloved first child needs a sibling".
I think that's a statement of fact backed-up by a biological reality. There is always variability, and a minority of people, I admit, are probably not cut-out for establishing a family. Underneath all that is choice, you are free to choose one way or the other - a freedom that OP certainly has.
What is the aggressive push I'm making? Is it that I suggested to OP that the lack of meaning OP finds in their life, even though they have a good job and a comfortable life, is maybe due to the fact that they didn't establish a family so that they can actually give something of themselves to another human being? So that their day-to-day life isn't just about them? Is that advice worse than medicalizing the issue prematurely? Or to just find another hobby? Why not at least consider doing something that we have been biologically built for, that was a fact of our existence for eons?
Seriously, I do not understand you. Why shouldn't OP JUST CONSIDER it. You and I can't force OP to do anything. OP has already tried everything else. Why is that so distasteful to you personally, that you would rather OP seek medical attention, based on nothing, instead of having them really thinking about one of the most fundamental and meaningful institutions that a human being could engage in - starting a family.
>This what leads to deeply affected people: being born and raised because the parents had some secondary goal in mind and needed children for that goal.
We live in a society with a negative replacement rate. This is not a problem for our society.
>biological reality
>negative replacement rate
>most fundamental and meaningful institutions that a human being could engage in
I perceive a particular ideology behind those phrases, so the basics of our worldviews do not match in the first place. If anything, the "biological reality" for me is overshoot and ecosystem collapse, so there's no need to worry about replacement rates.
He'll still have days of struggle, we all do, but he'll have a fulfilling reason to push through them.
“Many people find fulfillment and purpose in having children” = good advice
“Having children will give you purpose and make you feel fulfilled” = you’re projecting
I did the „have children and all will be well“ thing and the guilt I have towards those children is great.
In my defence, I myself was a „child will save our relationship“-child - needless to say it didn’t work and left me with a giant question mark: why am I here?
Hence I am a biased observer, each to their own & your mileage will vary.
I was quite obviously a wanted child, and I still feel this way; we are thrown into the world with no regard for our own preference (obviously it can be no other way). Clearly most people take to it with little problem, but I've never really felt like I belong. I've mostly made peace with that, but would not wish it on a child.
You're outright stating OP is suffering from depression ("clearly depressed"). How is that assessment any better? In fact, it's probably worse because that's a clinical judgement.
In terms of the general advice that he build a family - how is that wrong or 'insane'? OP is looking for some kind of purpose or meaning in their life and coding isn't cutting it, and neither is building a tech startup, or travelling, or exercising. It just so happens that being part of a family and being responsible for their welfare has provided purpose for much of humanity throughout our existence. At the very least, it gives you a solid reason why you should get out of bed (the kids need to eat, they need to be taken to school, etc.). Why is that advice unreasonable?
Because it's easy to not know what the signs of depression are, and once it has been flagged as a possibility, it's easy to simply go to a doctor for professional evaluation.
> Why is that advice unreasonable?
Why is "just be part of a family? And if you don't have one already, just go make one!" unreasonable, you're asking?
Additionally, OP clearly stated that he is not "16" and doesn't want to explore "hobbies". As I mentioned in my comment below thread, exposing him to diverse point of views can help him figure it out on his own.
Every day was one day closer to release, to being able to see and spend time with the people I cared most about. I saw dates on the calendar approach and looked forward to them. I never had much opportunity to be bored, and there were plenty of activities I could engage in, even during 24 hour lockdowns. I was forced and encouraged to eat fewer calories (at first at least) and lost a lot of weight, making me much healthier. I had goals I was very eager to work toward, but artificially put off because I couldn't do them while locked up.
This sounds like a mid-life crisis. Your SHBG levels rise with age and your free testosterone levels are likely low. Getting looked over for TRT can potentially help.
Having a middling career isn't enough for a lot of people. Why aren't you in the 1% killing it? A lot of them have problems, but having more money than you know how to spend is a source of contentment for a lot of wealthier people.
Wrapping it up with a quote: "I never worked a day in my life. It was all fun."
“I had it worse than you and figured it out” just ain’t it dude. Same with “just be happy”
> I hate the mental constraints of 9-5, hence I'm trying to build a business.
I think owning a successful business means you work with people more, not less.
> After my day job I feel so exhausted that I can barely find desire to work on the business.
There's value in powering through and getting stuff done. But there is also a time to step back and do less. You're the best person to judge what's right.
I agree with everyone else. You need a purpose. If not the business, then something else. Here's an incomplete list of things people find purpose in:
1. Religion
2. Children and family
3. Volunteering and helping others
4. Hobbies
5. Friends and community
6. Involvement in local politics
7. Climbing the corporate ladder
9. All-out hedonism - games, partying
> I get scared when I realize that this is my life for the next 30-40 years.
Normal and natural. But 40 years is a long time and a lot can change. What would you like to be different?
Sounds easy, I am well aware that it's often terrifying, but it's the only solution.