Delightful read. I second the authors sentiments about awkward reconnections during COVID Lockdowns that turned into rekindled friendships.
I wonder what the interaction between having friends and having a close family is. Does friendship mean more (or less) if your family bonds are stronger?
Better schedule in some time to meet a friend this week - maybe in place of going to the gym!
One lesson here is preventive — don’t let your friends become strangers. The more time that passes between conversations, the more they become an unfamiliar person.
This is important for a society that is growing increasingly concerned about loneliness and friendlessness. Some even suggest that we are in a “friendship recession,” with 20 percent of single men now saying they don’t have any close friends. It’s not just men, though. A 2019 survey found that 30 percent of millennials of both sexes said they are always or often lonely, and 27 percent said they have no close friends.
Gen Z doesn’t look much different and might even be in a worse position. In her 2023 book “Generations,” the psychologist Jean Twenge points out that from the 1970s into the 2000s, teenagers spent about two hours per day with friends. By 2019, this had dropped to just one hour per day. In the 1970s, more than half of 12th graders got together with their friends almost every day. By 2019, only 28 percent did.
I was wondering if I accidentally scrolled up...no, turns out the text was actually duplicated.
> It’s unwise to discard these investments or be reluctant to recover them, especially when the cost is a simple message and conversation every now and then.
Hilariously out of touch quote in article that is on a surface level so thoroughly researched. There is nothing simple about "message and conversation every now and then"
The author touches on this themselves:
> I was relieved — I didn’t want to dwell on my present circumstances because it would have highlighted how much our paths have diverged.
I'm not so sure. I come from southern Europe where doing something like that is easy, because people mean it. But living abroad I can probably count with one hand the times that someone made good on that. Sometimes I followed up with someone, just to get excuses and vague answers. I had to learn the hard and awkward way that most people are just trying to be polite and don't really want to "stay in touch".
Yes, that's exactly right. That's what the above is. You have to maintain polite contact with people in order to stay on the radar. It's why people used to send each other Christmas cards even though they had not spoken all year. Just touching base, letting you know you're still on my list.
None of the above imagined conversation is to be taken literally. It's just a polite ping/ack. It doesn't create any further obligation.
For me it's interesting -- I'm somebody who has in the past made the niceties when somebody reached about but ultimately not reciprocated much. And it wasn't because I didn't care, it was because never in my life had somebody reaching out from the past resulted in genuinely satisfying interactions. So in a certain fatalistic way, I had decided it wouldn't amount to anything which was then possibly self-fulfilling.
I used to believe that whenever coworkers ask how to stay in touch after I leave a job it was just a lie we all tell ourselves to make the transition easier. But I'm finding that many of my coworkers say they do stay in touch with old colleagues.
Perhaps part of the lesson is that some of us who don't reciprocate with you do care, but have no mental model (or lack the social grace) to navigate a more tricky relationship (e.g. what if work is now much better now that this person left, and what if the people and things you had in common no longer apply).
Ich weiß von alters her, daß man entfernten Freunden gar nicht schreibt, wenn man darauf warten will, bis man ihnen etwas zu schreiben hat.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
i know for a long time that you don't ever write to distant friends if you want to wait until you have something worth writing about.
i found this in a collection of quotes. i don't know if it is verified as genuine, but that doesn't matter. the sentiment expressed makes sense either way.
i sent that quote to a friend that i haven't talked to in a while, followed by "how are you?" which then led to a nice conversation catching up.
the thing is that doing this is a lot easier than suddenly talking to someone because you actually want something from them.
compare for example the discussions here on HN on how we need to build a network to help us find jobs. the part that i am struggling with is that i don't usually keep in touch often enough with the people in my network so that asking anyone to help me find a job feels rather awkward. i'd rather just message people out of the blue for no reason at all instead of waiting until i seriously need their help.
out of all the metaphors the author could've used. why not just go with a gardening example? friendships grow like trees, they need tending and they grow stronger with age.
especially because we're all familiar with friendships that turn out to be purely transactional relationships like with drinking buddies which fizzle out as soon as the activity itself is no longer welcoming. treating friendships literally as investments encourages surface level transactional relationships, which is the opposite of what you'd want to be happy!
> out of all the metaphors the author could've used. why not just go with a gardening example? friendships grow like trees, they need tending and they grow stronger with age.
IDK, people generally grow and care for trees as investments (wood, fruit), research, or sometimes maybe a hobby. Not sure which one would apply to friendships best.
I assert that the difference between normal friendship ("I hang out with people I click with") and the way some define transactional relationships ("I put effort in proportional to what I can get from someone")...
Is a difference of intention and vibes, not a real concrete measurable difference.
I think everyone values people for what they can do for them. It's only called narcissism or Machiavellianism when you mess it up and hurt someone
I've had many, many close, intimate (It's entirely possible to have intimate relationships with other men/people you aren't romantically involved with), and meaningful friendships (and frenemyships), over the last 43 years.
Long story, but I'm a member of an organization, where we have a Common Purpose, and regularly work together.
Many of these relationships have been somewhat "transient," where we were very close, for a time, and have drifted apart. No animus, we just went different paths. I always enjoy running into them, later, and take pleasure in their success (or sadness, in their not-success).
I'd say that most of my current close circle have been there for around 25 years.
I'm quite grateful for it. I know that there's a huge problem, with folks (especially men), my age, becoming quite isolated, and, in my opinion, it is quite unhealthy; both mentally, and physically.
To have a friend, I must be a friend. It's been very important for me to be as open-minded, honest, and accepting, as I want others to be, for me.
I have also had a number of fairly close friendships, that began as antagonistic relationships. I've learned not to burn bridges.
One of the behaviors that I see here (and elsewhere, in teh Internets Tubes), is folks that begin relationships with attacks. We've never ever had any interaction with someone, and our very first contact, ever, is an attack.
It seems to be a sign of the times. I suspect that remote communication makes that easier. It's a lot easier to attack someone, if you are not within right hook range.
Also, I think that limited interaction makes it easy to think of others as one-dimensional "caricatures," and we can ignore the aspects that we may find in common, or attractive. I think that it is also easy to project false narratives and motives onto people on the other end of an electronic medium.
It's been my experience that every single person that I've ever met, has a life story, and, often, that story has a great many places that intersect or run parallel to my own. I have also been surprised, at finding that I have great admiration for some folks, once I learn more about them, and that helps to mitigate the places we disagree.
The problem is, though, I also see this antagonistic behavior translated IRL, and, in some venues (like this one, where a lot of extremely influential folks hang out casually), it can result in real personal damage.
> Also, I think that limited interaction makes it easy to think of others as one-dimensional "caricatures," and we can ignore the aspects that we may find in common, or attractive.
Even in my closest lovers, I could name one or two things I dislike. Something about them that I resent quietly or resent openly.
I don't know what to make of this. Any interpersonal relationship requires compromise just to exist. I feel unwelcome in the world, on some days. Nowhere else to go, though. Just running out the clock for the next 50+ years
> I feel unwelcome in the world, on some days. Nowhere else to go, though. Just running out the clock for the next 50+ years
I have found that getting involved in altruistic and/or volunteer organizations helps a lot.
I firmly believe that the work that I do Makes A Difference, and I have a large circle of acquaintances and very close friends, as a result of the work that I do.
One of the things about the type of skills that most of us have, is that they fetch a high price, and many budget-conscious orgs can't afford good stuff, which is why you see so many dogshit websites, and whatnot.
I have a high degree of skill, and I'm willing to employ that, for free, for organizations that I believe in.
It's worked for me.
“I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.”
I find something disturbing in using capitalist analogies like "investing" to reason about core human activities, and simply pinging people to keep in touch.
In this mode of thinking having a group of friend from diverse backgrounds for instance can be seen be like a loose corporation, with division of labor to model the various professions everyone has. Or advice and services can be traded in a social credit scheme between friends.
In the end, once we've been dehumanized by our lifestyle, the answer needs to include some rehumanizing message, such as "actually care about your friend, help them if you can and spend quality time with them, they are you in different circumstances".
I believe OP is referring to the whole thing being mechanical and planned rather than it being authentic (such as reaching out to people out of genuine interest and mutual regard).
authentically reaching out to people out of genuine interest and mutual regard takes on the seriousness of investing, all the due diligence of friendship husbandry because you really care about the outcome
Some people are just not people-persons, and need guidelines - even if they sound strict, mechanical, or inhuman, to steer them through mundane things most people would take for granted.
As someone like this myself, I welcome such things.
29 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 74.0 ms ] threadI wonder what the interaction between having friends and having a close family is. Does friendship mean more (or less) if your family bonds are stronger?
Better schedule in some time to meet a friend this week - maybe in place of going to the gym!
Hilariously out of touch quote in article that is on a surface level so thoroughly researched. There is nothing simple about "message and conversation every now and then"
The author touches on this themselves:
> I was relieved — I didn’t want to dwell on my present circumstances because it would have highlighted how much our paths have diverged.
Hey thanks! Things are going pretty well, how about you?
Same. We should get lunch or grab a beer soon.
Yeah sounds good, I'd like that.
Simple.
Doing it seriously takes real work.
Yes, that's exactly right. That's what the above is. You have to maintain polite contact with people in order to stay on the radar. It's why people used to send each other Christmas cards even though they had not spoken all year. Just touching base, letting you know you're still on my list.
None of the above imagined conversation is to be taken literally. It's just a polite ping/ack. It doesn't create any further obligation.
I used to believe that whenever coworkers ask how to stay in touch after I leave a job it was just a lie we all tell ourselves to make the transition easier. But I'm finding that many of my coworkers say they do stay in touch with old colleagues.
Perhaps part of the lesson is that some of us who don't reciprocate with you do care, but have no mental model (or lack the social grace) to navigate a more tricky relationship (e.g. what if work is now much better now that this person left, and what if the people and things you had in common no longer apply).
Trivially easy and people treat me like I have social super powers
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
i know for a long time that you don't ever write to distant friends if you want to wait until you have something worth writing about.
i found this in a collection of quotes. i don't know if it is verified as genuine, but that doesn't matter. the sentiment expressed makes sense either way.
i sent that quote to a friend that i haven't talked to in a while, followed by "how are you?" which then led to a nice conversation catching up.
the thing is that doing this is a lot easier than suddenly talking to someone because you actually want something from them.
compare for example the discussions here on HN on how we need to build a network to help us find jobs. the part that i am struggling with is that i don't usually keep in touch often enough with the people in my network so that asking anyone to help me find a job feels rather awkward. i'd rather just message people out of the blue for no reason at all instead of waiting until i seriously need their help.
especially because we're all familiar with friendships that turn out to be purely transactional relationships like with drinking buddies which fizzle out as soon as the activity itself is no longer welcoming. treating friendships literally as investments encourages surface level transactional relationships, which is the opposite of what you'd want to be happy!
IDK, people generally grow and care for trees as investments (wood, fruit), research, or sometimes maybe a hobby. Not sure which one would apply to friendships best.
Is a difference of intention and vibes, not a real concrete measurable difference.
I think everyone values people for what they can do for them. It's only called narcissism or Machiavellianism when you mess it up and hurt someone
Long story, but I'm a member of an organization, where we have a Common Purpose, and regularly work together.
Many of these relationships have been somewhat "transient," where we were very close, for a time, and have drifted apart. No animus, we just went different paths. I always enjoy running into them, later, and take pleasure in their success (or sadness, in their not-success).
I'd say that most of my current close circle have been there for around 25 years.
I'm quite grateful for it. I know that there's a huge problem, with folks (especially men), my age, becoming quite isolated, and, in my opinion, it is quite unhealthy; both mentally, and physically.
To have a friend, I must be a friend. It's been very important for me to be as open-minded, honest, and accepting, as I want others to be, for me.
I have also had a number of fairly close friendships, that began as antagonistic relationships. I've learned not to burn bridges.
One of the behaviors that I see here (and elsewhere, in teh Internets Tubes), is folks that begin relationships with attacks. We've never ever had any interaction with someone, and our very first contact, ever, is an attack.
It seems to be a sign of the times. I suspect that remote communication makes that easier. It's a lot easier to attack someone, if you are not within right hook range.
Also, I think that limited interaction makes it easy to think of others as one-dimensional "caricatures," and we can ignore the aspects that we may find in common, or attractive. I think that it is also easy to project false narratives and motives onto people on the other end of an electronic medium.
It's been my experience that every single person that I've ever met, has a life story, and, often, that story has a great many places that intersect or run parallel to my own. I have also been surprised, at finding that I have great admiration for some folks, once I learn more about them, and that helps to mitigate the places we disagree.
The problem is, though, I also see this antagonistic behavior translated IRL, and, in some venues (like this one, where a lot of extremely influential folks hang out casually), it can result in real personal damage.
Even in my closest lovers, I could name one or two things I dislike. Something about them that I resent quietly or resent openly.
I don't know what to make of this. Any interpersonal relationship requires compromise just to exist. I feel unwelcome in the world, on some days. Nowhere else to go, though. Just running out the clock for the next 50+ years
I have found that getting involved in altruistic and/or volunteer organizations helps a lot.
I firmly believe that the work that I do Makes A Difference, and I have a large circle of acquaintances and very close friends, as a result of the work that I do.
One of the things about the type of skills that most of us have, is that they fetch a high price, and many budget-conscious orgs can't afford good stuff, which is why you see so many dogshit websites, and whatnot.
I have a high degree of skill, and I'm willing to employ that, for free, for organizations that I believe in.
It's worked for me.
“I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.”
― Hunter S. Thompson
In this mode of thinking having a group of friend from diverse backgrounds for instance can be seen be like a loose corporation, with division of labor to model the various professions everyone has. Or advice and services can be traded in a social credit scheme between friends.
In the end, once we've been dehumanized by our lifestyle, the answer needs to include some rehumanizing message, such as "actually care about your friend, help them if you can and spend quality time with them, they are you in different circumstances".
As someone like this myself, I welcome such things.
https://ninabadzin.com/podcasts/