Launch HN: Airhart Aeronautics (YC S22) – A modern personal airplane

738 points by n_ermosh ↗ HN
Hey Hacker News! I’m Nikita, founder of Airhart Aeronautics (https://www.airhartaero.com/). We are building an airplane for people who don’t fly airplanes. The goal is to make flying as easy as driving a car—while maintaining a high bar for safety. Here’s a video that shows a bit of our hardware and quite a bit of our software: https://youtu.be/PGJUGUceu8A

In the US, trips that are 50-300 miles are almost all done by car because that distance is too short for commercial airlines and too far for public transportation. Thanks to the Wright Brothers we've had aerial transport for over 100 years. The US has over 19,000 airports, and large commercial airplane technology has developed to the point that the planes practically fly themselves. If we already have the infrastructure and the technology, why isn't everyone flying planes?

The problem is that small airplane technology hasn’t innovated and is stuck in the past. Flying a small airplane is complicated, mentally taxing, and dangerous—about 28x more dangerous than driving a car. Outdated airplanes, coupled with outdated flight controls, lead to regular accidents, often due to some form of loss of control. The planes are expensive and margins are small. There is no incentive to innovate within the current market, so we are looking at the new, untapped market of those who don’t think about flying as an option today and making it an option.

I first came across this when I learned to fly in 2020. I was learning in a “modern” GA airplane but was immediately struck by the fact that an airplane built in 2018 did not have an engine computer and there was a manual level to control the fuel/air mixture ratio. Starting it on a hot day was like starting a stubborn lawn mower. On top of that, my instructor was telling me all the various ways I could kill myself if I’m not running at 100% concentration for hours on end. This just didn’t sit right with me.

At the time I was working at SpaceX as an avionics engineer, leading the development of the avionics for the fairing recovery program. I also built autonomous aircraft when I was a student at Cornell, where I got a degree in electrical and computer engineering. It was clear to me that the core problem is that airplanes are too unsafe and too complicated to operate which is keeping too many people out of aviation. So, I decided to leave SpaceX and was joined by my long-time friend Brendan (he was a software engineer at Apple at the time; we built autonomous aircraft together at Cornell) to start Airhart to tackle this problem and make flying safer and more accessible.

We are developing a full hardware and software package to change how people fly airplanes. It’s a fly-by-wire control system, meaning instead of mechanical linkages between the pilot’s control stick and the control surfaces, it’s a joystick that sends digital commands to a computer that then moves the control surfaces accordingly with servo actuators. We’re developing all of the hardware ourselves: the computers, the sensors, the actuators–and all of the software that actually does the control. But it’s not just fly-by-wire. On top of it, we are implementing a simplified control scheme that reduces flying the airplane to just one action to perform one maneuver.

For readers who aren’t pilots: all flying is basically coordinating the aircraft pitch, roll, yaw, and throttle to coordinate actions. Something as simple as a level turn to the right means you have to 1) roll the airplane, 2) use your feet on the rudder pedals to keep the turn coordinated, 3) pull back to increase your lift since you are now losing lift in a bank, 4) monitor your airspeed (especially if at slow speeds when coming in to land), 5) monitor your altitude as you’re adjusting your lift in (3), 6) monitor your turn coordination as you adjust it in (2). You are now established in a ...

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Super ambitious project that you are attempting - kudos to that!

What do you think of 1. Licenses 2. Air traffic control & routing for personal crafts 3. Landing / Takeoff / Turbulence (weather) - where typically most of the human skill today is used in for commercial flights. 4. and probably the one for interface design and overall autonomous systems - human decision making + autonomous systems really have a difficult time working in tandem - fully autonomous is less risky at an aggregate level but puts onus and more of the blame on the company / maker versus human-in-the-loop.

all things we've thought about!

1. today, you need a PPL to fly this plane. However, a new set of regulations, called MOSAIC, is coming down the pipeline that have support for aircraft with simplified control systems and getting licensed in such aircraft, specifically when they are small, light airplanes. Basically, you'll be able to get a license in such a plane, skip the parts of tests that don't apply, and be restricted to only flying that type of airplane (This is my interpretation, I obviously don't speak for the FAA)

2. The current ATC system handles personal aircraft quite well. this is especially true in busy airspaces like LA. Our hope is to create a more automated routing system where you just enter the destination you want to fly to, the system generates the route taking into account, terrain, weather, winds, standard routes, airways, etc, files it with ATC for you, and you just confirm that it's a good path and be on your way.

3. This is the core of our system. In the demo video, the landing I'm doing has a cross wind with some gusts and you can see the system handles it super easily and makes it significantly easier to takeoff and land, even in turbulence. you can barely tell there was any kind of weather at all.

4. This is a tough one for sure. One core thing we are doing is having our joystick be active and have force feedback. So when flying, you can "feel" what the system is trying to do and you can push back on it if you don't like what it's doing. You as the pilot are still in charge of what happens, we just making it easier for you to execute on it. Additionally, there's lots of UI elements that will provide hints to what you are asking the plane to do + what it can do + what it's actually doing. This should help close that loop so that the pilot is still in control, while letting the system handle the aviating elements of flying.

On no. 4, it's when things hit the fan and people get overloaded that they revert to basics and don't take in complex information well. Particularly if they don't have regular relevant training/experience. Having the controls move as per system / AP input with the ability to override manually is good, but then how does the envelope control work, does it start ignoring input, or lock up the ability to override the controls, ... ?

What about the scenario where you are in climb out, 50' AGL, and wind rotor off some trees gives you an immediate 90 degree roll (happened to me in a PA38), does the system auto recover that, does the pilot, what happens if the panicking pilot attempts incorrect controls, ...

Not saying all this isn't solvable, but it's complicated and I'm struggling to see how you are going to get a large enough market to deliver all this tech at an affordable price. Force feedback controllers, flying and engine controls all with redundant sensors and actuators, mechanically robust ...

> Super ambitious project that you are attempting - kudos to that!

The GPS and gyroscope reimplementation would appear to be a business opportunity in themselves - presumably there is a reason someone hasn’t undercut those parts already. Small market?

> presumably there is a reason someone hasn’t undercut those parts already. Small market?

I suspect the answer is simply regulations. Far too many modern things in aviation have been held back by the FAA.

As a paraglider pilot (unpowered), I will say that the technical aspects of flying the aircraft are only a small part of what's involved in a flight - as you point out.

It's a bad idea to get pilots in the air with less training. People can't safely pilot cars in two dimensions.

Making the avionics easier to use and more affordable sounds like the actual winning product.

The way we see it isn't less training, but training focused on the most important parts of flying: decision making and risk management. Given the current track record for accidents, they almost always culminate in the pilot failing to control the airplane, whether due to directly stalling or being distracted by another issue and then stalling. By eliminating loss of control as a failure mode, pilots can spend more of their minimum 40 hours on decision making and risk management training, rather than on stick and rudder training. Then when in the air, they put more of their mental load on ADM. We are just breaking down the barrier that stops people from even getting there in the first place.
> By eliminating loss of control as a failure mode

I think this is a flawed view of the problem, even with an industry-grade FCS to work with. If you're in the air, you should know how to break out of a stall, belly-land in an emergency, or route around turbulence as it crops up. These things happen, and preventing someone from doing a loop-de-loop won't eliminate a category of failure-modes.

This is something I very much wish would be a reality one day, but you'll be kicking yourself with every incident report that blames bad piloting. One can only hope that they wouldn't risk their own life trusting an untrained pilot.

Most accidents occur because the pilot makes a bad decision somewhere and a chain of events leads to an accident (in GA--commercial is a completely different beast). Our hope is to break that chain by making it as easy as possible for the pilot to continue flying the airplane and bring it safely to the ground in a high-stress emergency.
Even when the tools are available, pilots need the training to know to use them. How many NTSB accident reports include non instrument rated pilots getting disoriented in IMC despite having an autopilot with a "level" function? If your system can keep them out of this kind of trouble without them even having to take action, it will save lives.
The thing that worries me is that this will attract the same kind of pilots as Tesla's so called FSD.
How do you propose this training happens? Surely this will require a full PPL as you're well above LSA limits.

I'd also be deathly afraid of what happens when the automation inevitably fails.

A lot of the existing training system from the FAA and others all emphasize aeronautical decision making and single-pilot resource management. It's the core thing that we are taught when we learn to fly.

Also, under the upcoming MOSAIC regulations, such airplanes will be LSAs and flyable with a sport pilot license.

> they almost always culminate in the pilot failing to control the airplane

"failing to control the airplane" is a little like saying everyone dies of heart failure. Yes their heart stopped - but why!?

The real cause is somewhat earlier. Why was a normally competent pilot in a situation where they no longer adequately controlled the aircraft?

Improve avionics - great. Improve situational awareness - really helpful. Handling should be way down the list - it becomes quite intuitive very quickly.

> Making the avionics easier to use and more affordable sounds like the actual winning product.

Garmin is the clear leader in the certified avionics class for general aviation aircraft these days. If you somehow manage to capture a part of their market, you win big time.

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I disagree with your assessment. I think that the core problem with GA is that most people in the United States want to travel distances beyond what an affordable GA aircraft can in a single flight. I live in the midwest and I generally want to travel to the East or West coast or Southwest or Florida and the range of a Cessna just isn’t going to cut it. The only practical vehicle would be a Phenom 300 or Honda Jet II, but I don’t have $8 million lying around.

Reality is that without North American continental range, it just isn’t worth it to go get a pilots license and buy a plane for the few trips that I can just easily drive. Maybe if I lived in Boston, General Aviation would be great, but for many Americans who live in areas in the middle that aren’t near large airports, the range of these aircraft just make them expensive toys that aren’t very useful for the size of North America.

I might be over estimating, but I'd also think taking off and landing will tack on a few hours to the start and end of your trip. Fueling, safety checks, dealing with the control tower, etc. all seem like they'd effectively take your time savings to zero.
once you get to wanting to travel about 150 miles, the time savings do start kicking in, even if you assume 30-45 minutes of getting to the airport, preflight, etc. The benefit of a small airplane is that at small airports, getting from walking up to the airplane and then into the air can be pretty quick. And part of our goal is the automate as much of the prelight process as possible, wherever we can do it safely
If you succeed in making this all easy, won’t these small airports fill up with planes?
We will eventually hit a limit to the current infrastructure, but based on where the GA market was in the 70s when a lot of the small airports were built, we estimate we can handle ~10x the number of planes we do today.
So we can go from half a million pilots to 5 million? Then what?
"dealing with the control tower"

I know little to nothing about GA, but... it only makes sense to take time if the procedures are still done somehow manually, like speaking with human operators out there. It true, the dependence on a fallible human attention for something that can be automated, that right there is a safety hazard to me.

You're definitely right that the cross continental trip is a big and common one. however, 90% of long distance trips are made by car in the US with a median trip distance of about 200 miles. If we can make flying as easy as driving, the ability to make that trip in half to a third of the time, we believe that's a big win and incentive for a lot of people. There are 19,000 small airports in the US and 300M people live within 15 miles of at least one. So we totally think it's reasonable for that medium distance trip to be done by GA airplane rather than car.
I've found my GA flying to really be about trips that you _wouldn't have made otherwise_, but the biggest barrier is cost. I've done little adventure trips with my wife that were super fun and without a PPL we wouldn't have done the equivalent. But when it comes to boring stuff it's just too expensive to justify flying so the trips don't happen (since I have to rent).

My suspicion is that the middle of the Venn diagram between "can afford a $500K aircraft" and "doesn't fly GA because they're not going to stay proficient enough to be safe" is vanishingly small. The doctors who fly their Cirrus once a year think they're Maverick so they don't care about the safety features. The guys who fly every chance they get aren't the ones stall spinning on base to final.

Cost is definitely a barrier and our long term goal is the get down to a plane that costs <$100k. getting there is incremental, this is just our first product to start wedging our way into the market.
I guess I don't see a whole lot of value in spending thousands and thousands of dollars for a few short trips. I think that the underserved market is the well to do person that doesn't live near a major hub international airport like Ohio or Nebraska or Iowa and they want to be able to fly direct on their schedule and they can't just head to the airport and fly direct wherever they want for a few hundred dollars instead of having to bounce through a hub and being at the mercy of the airlines schedule.

But I think the main reason why people don't do that who can't afford a multi-million dollar private jet is that if you take a compass circle and draw it around your location with the range of your average GA aircraft anywhere that's not on the east or west coast you get 4 or 5 cities that you aren't likely to travel to anyways. America is just too big a place for these types of aircraft.

Plus, while there may be all these airports that you are mentioning, can you really count on getting fuel to take you back at these minor airports or the FBOs to service outside a much shorter list of airports? That cuts the range away even more.

The other problem beyond range is dispatch reliability. Most light planes can’t go very high or fast to get around thunderstorms, and they can’t fly in icing conditions, and flying in low visibility with a single amateur pilot is still dangerous even with avionics improvements. This means that if you don’t want to die, you have to cancel a lot of flights at the last minute, which makes it only useful for trips where you have a viable alternate means of transportation.

From a speed perspective, one thing that would make a lot of difference is speeding up the preflight. Now you have to pull the plane out of the hangar, go to the fuel pump, fill multiple fuel tanks, check the oil, sump the fuel tanks, etc. Electronic sensors for oil and water in the fuel, a simpler fuel system, and a built-in electric motor for getting out of the hangar might save 20+ minutes per flight, which would actually be better than even a faster plane because these tasks are annoying and dirty.

Another thing that would be great is a bigger baggage compartment with electric power for folding e-bikes or scooters. America is amazing in the number of small airports we have, but most of them have no rental cars and are outside of town.

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Wondering what you think about this video[0], which (if one ignores the clickbaity and colourful language and focuses on the substance of the argument) frames problems with mass adoption of "flying cars" as fundamental and idea-killing non-starters, rather than hurdles to work hard on, and overcome.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fcWOivJ6bs

I love this guy. trains solve all the worlds problems :)

His discussion is focused a bit more on europe which I think is a very different environment than the US. We don't have trains and want to go larger distances more regularly. We also have a much larger airport infrastructure and a complex airspace system that handles the issue of flying over populated areas and flying approaches safely quite well. So as long as things aren't falling of the plane over someone house (which really isn't a problem even with todays airplanes) I think until we get high speed rail, small airplanes are the next best thing

>We don't have trains

If you take optimizing transportation options as a holistic problem, rather than focusing on any individual user who needs to travel those 50-500 km distances, more trains is a far more straightforward and efficient investment than flying cars, no?

>We also have a much larger airport infrastructure and a complex airspace system that handles the issue of flying over populated areas and flying approaches safely quite well.

Well, yes, at the scale of our current number of commercial aviation flights and a very small number of private planes. You're proposing to kick it up how many orders of magnitude, if we're talking number of air vehicles simultaneously in the air? You need to build an entirely different traffic control system for that, and noise pollution becomes a far more vexing problem. That last one, I'm guessing, is the idea killer if we're talking more than a small number of flying cars. If you ever get to a point where this is an actual concern, i.e. there are actually a lot of them in the air, wait until those rural voters get their hands on you and start contacting their state lawmakers, and until those representatives start law-making.

> So as long as things aren't falling of the plane over someone house (which really isn't a problem even with todays airplanes)

But it is a problem that increases with the number of vehicles in the air.

>I think until we get high speed rail, small airplanes are the next best thing

Is it though? Building good passenger rail (no need for actual HSR) is a solved problem with proven solutions, tested for decades all over the world. How many decades will it take to actually develop a "production-ready" small airplane operable by very quickly trained sorta-pilots, and then deploy the infrastructure needed for N of them to safely operate in an M-kilometer radius? I don't have a good feel for what you think N and M will be, so it's hard to tell. But I'm gonna go ahead and guess it's a far less well-defined question than "how long will it take to connect two cities with 200 kmh rail link".

edit: yes, I'm nay-saying, playing devil's advocate while rooting for the devil just a tiny bit, but I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I am open minded and looking forward to your responses.

> If you take optimizing transportation options as a holistic problem, rather than focusing on any individual user who needs to travel those 50-500 km distances, more trains is a far more straightforward and efficient investment than flying cars, no?

maybe. But people are still tied to the trains schedule and don't have the "get in a go" freedom that they do with a car. I don't know the details of what it actually takes to build a train network but my intuition is telling that it's fundamentally more investment because of the land requirements.

> You need to build an entirely different traffic control system for that

probably true. but I think it'll take some time to get there and that gives us the opportunity to invest in that. The more modernized airplanes we have, the more opportunity we have to start creating a more automated ATC system that uses digital communication between the airplane and ATC, rather than the voice system we use today.

> But it is a problem that increases with the number of vehicles in the air.

We (as an industry) have gotten pretty good at knowing how to build an airplane so that parts don't fall off (this is a facetious example, I'm really referring to general system reliability) that revolves around rigorous production standard, and those we definitely must continue to follow.

> Building good passenger rail (no need for actual HSR) is a solved problem with proven solutions

True, but even those solutions are starting to become outdated. Rail also has a very high safety bar because of the consequence of failure, so developing a new rail network is really hard too.

> How many decades will it take to actually develop a "production-ready"...

We expect that we will 10x the number of vehicles flying over the next 10 years, so N is ~10k, and M is 500km. In the US, we already have that infrastructure, and I suspect (based on not much but my own intuition) is that it'll take another 10 years to get that infrastructure updated to support every 3x (sqrt(10)) increase in N

I don't feel tied to train schedules when they go between cities every 15 minutes and between countries every two hours or so. That's the situation near me currently and that's sufficient to not look at a schedule for short trips but just show up, and for the holiday-distanced trips you need to plan it anyway and leaving an hour later is not going to make any difference
I love the concept, as an aviation nerd (and hopefully future GA pilot). However I'm a little cautious - understanding weather particularly is massively different from moving in 2 dimensions and you can't land "anywhere", unlike how you can pull over. And the average person who doesn't know much about the weather isn't likely to know what a microburst is or why it's dangerous.

I'd recommend pitching this to (new) pilots instead at least for starters.

Thanks! Our early adopters are a combination of new pilots, those that have already begun the training process, and even some experienced ones that want a better, safer flying experience
Howdy! FI(H) here. Looks very cool, I watched the video too.

Many students get the hang of hovering within 10 hours - "learning to fly" really isn't that hard? I see the rest of the course as "learning to become a pilot." That means the background knowledge and practice to allow decision making & dealing with emergencies etc.

I think if you could improve just a single one of the problems you touch on (difficult controls, navigation, mass and balance, fly by wire etc) you could make a lot of money...

... But improving all of them in one shot... that sounds unreasonable to me? Are they really connected?

> Our system makes it impossible to lose control of the airplane, potentially solving 80% of today’s fatal accidents in general aviation.

I'd love to see details on how you achieved this... or at least your definition of "impossible"...

You are definitely correct that "learning to become a pilot" is the meat of training. Our belief is that we want to make the continued act of "aviating" as easy as possible so that pilots can focus on the decision making aspect of being a pilot, and when doing so, not let the airplane get ahead of them and cause an accident.

Basically, you can't command the plane to do anything it can't safely do. If you pull the stick full back, you'll just climb at your maximum safe angle of attack. Hold the stick full right, you'll be turning at a 45 degree bank. Compared to todays planes, which you have to actively be on top of and "ahead of" the entire them they are being flown.

I get the idea... but what happens when a pitot tube is blocked or an aoa sensor gets stuck or ... ?

With "traditional" controls and an autopilot failure, you still have control over all the control surfaces.

With your solution, you don't have enough hand axis to fall back to manual flying? How can the computer possibly guarantee safe flight in all conditions?

In the case of an e.g. air speed sensor failure, how do you get on the ground safely? Is the answer "Just BRS"? Or multiple sensors etc. ?

Multiple sensors, actively modeling the flight dynamics to detect anomalous sensors/behaviors (i.e. is what we are measuring what we expect to measure), and BRS as a final backup.
Exciting project, good luck!
So basically a GA Airbus. I think this is a pretty cool project, and while it may not achieve the lofty goals you’ve set forth, any improvement in safety is worthwhile.

As other commenters have point out though, where this stuff falls short is ultimately still the human. Ok, great… your aircraft won’t stall in Normal Law. However you’ve now lost a generator and a whole FCC and you’re in direct law. The 400 hr pilot hasn’t actually flown a plane with direct input since their primary training 5 years ago. They also don’t remember what the different flight envelopes do and do not provide. Essentially the system is more complex but normally it works so the complexity is hidden. They’re not equipped to handle flying the airplane anymore.

This is where GA really ultimately falls short IMHO, proficiency. Airlines are the safest they’ve ever been because the pilots make an entire career out of being prepared for every contingency. People using airplanes as a personal travel tool can be trained and proficient to the same degree but often they are not because flying an aircraft is ancillary to their primary mission.

Thanks!

you're totally correct that emergencies are where the real issues lie. That's why we've built in multiple layers of fault tolerance so that a generator failure or a flight computer failure doesn't immediately revert you to a direct law control scheme (I'm assuming you're familiar with Airbus control laws given that you're using those phrases)

On top of everything, small GA aircraft have the luxury of being to use a ballistic parachute (which we will have) to bring the entire airframe to the ground in the event of a complete system failure. Which is always better than just letting the airplane crash into the ground.

I agree that proficiency is a fundamental issue. We want to make it easy to be and stay proficient. If flying becomes part of the primary mission, you do it more often and as a result stay proficient. The most dangerous pilots are the ones who haven't flown in 3 years and jump into a plane for an IFR cross country to an airport they've never been to before. We don't want that to happen either.

What are you trying that other companies have not tried? Ballistic parachutes are available on several aircraft.

If you load up on redundancy - well, electronics redundancy it seems, since the rest of the aircraft seems to be a Sling TSi - you increase cost and weight, decrease speed and useable load, and so on, and now your aircraft costs $800k-1m and $100-150/hr to operate. How many new clients that would not otherwise have gone into GA will you attract? Dual navigation is already commonly available. So what are you doing different that YC was interested in paying for?

The core innovation here is the fly-by-wire/simplified control scheme. This doesn't exist in any GA aircraft.

As our system has been developed so far, it has negligible impact on the speed and usable load of a base TSi, costing $500k for everything.

How do you deal with failures of the control scheme?

You mentioned elsewhere that redundancy means this is unlikely, but is there ever a reversion to "direct law"? Does the plane still have manual trim/rudder/throttle to deal with this, and are the pilots expected to periodically practice using the controls in "direct law"?

Do you have a working plane available for a test flight? :)

You can revert to a "direct law" in an emergency should multiple faults occur that reduce the capability of the flight controller. However, there's a question of is that the right move--if a pilot isn't regularly practiced in flying in a direct control, its probably more dangerous to revert to direct law than to say, pull the parachute, so it would be up to the pilot to determine the best course of action. The system would still be fully "by wire" though, there isn't a mechanical link between the pilot and surfaces/throttle. But, in such a mode, the flight controller is bypassed and the yoke directly commands the actuators, reducing the number of fault points between the pilot's input and the actuator.

We've flown early versions in an test aircraft that we have and are currently integrating the latest version of Airhart Assist (seen in the video) into the Airhart Sling prototype to be flying and giving demos by the end of the year.

Thanks for the reply. I'd love to try out the different modes at some point.
How do you make it easy to stay proficient? For example you say your plane will never stall, will your pilots train stall recognition and recovery regularly? How will prevent something like what happened to AF447?
We'll still encourage and require the same proficiency checks that pilots do today.

Our hope is that GA pilots will no longer need to do things like train stall recovery. We are moving into an era of aviation where aircraft (not just airplanes) will be complicated enough that computers have to be in the loop to handle things like that, because it allows us to create more interesting aerodynamic aircraft that are more efficient and have better performance.

regarding something like AF447, the immediate answer is we have the ballistic parachute as a final backup in case the pilot is unable to land the plane, for whatever reason. Realistically, it would depend entirely on the exact situation our plane was in, what systems have failed vs which haven't, and the pilots actual skill level

My point about AF447 was:

  - even with redundancy, there can be enough failures that the computer no longer has enough information to make the right decision, one thing humans seem to be good at.

  - people who had been trained in stall recognition and recovery, but probably had not kept proficient at it (unlike pilot of slow airplanes like GA and glider pilots) failed to recognize it (only 1 of the 3 pilot did) and did not recover from it.
> Our hope is that GA pilots will no longer need to do things like train stall recovery.

I hate everything about this thought process. Every pilot should know how to handle stall recovery, for the same reason that every driver should know how to handle loss of traction whether they have traction control or not. Driving the skill bar to the bottom intentionally will just result in more and more people flying without a clue what they're doing, just like we have on the roads today.

> proficiency is a fundamental issue

Have y'all considered that a fully digitized, fly-by-wire aircraft, of the type that you're proposing to build, would also essentially be a ridiculously high-fidelity flight simulator whenever and wherever it is sitting still with the engine off?

This could be part of your pitch—the pilot could program in a flight plan and then fly it in simulation, practice all the radio work etc., using the actual physical controls they would use to do it for real, then go do it for real all in the same chair.

we've definitely thought about that! the force-feedback fly by wire makes it really easy to replicate the feel of flying the real thing very well. What you see outside though will be fixed, so maybe for instrument training it would be good, though I'm not sure about using the actual plane vs recreating the cockpit in an indoor simulator
My aviation major roommates in college drilled for their upcoming flights with, I kid you not, a large poster depicting their instrument panel taped to the wall of our quad and a folding chair. Training does not require VR-like immersion to be supremely valuable. :)

Especially when it comes to practicing radio calls, it's the repetition that breeds competence and therefore confidence.

> ones who haven't flown in 3 years and jump into a plane for an IFR cross country to an airport they've never been to before

So, pilots who aren't legal to fly?

This. I liken it to the flawed approaches associated with self driving cars... software handles everything up until the point it can't then asks the user to take over in the last second. Not a great strategy.

As a software engineer and private pilot, I'll take mechanical controls connected to the flight surfaces and my competency as a pilot to risk my own life, rather than turn it over to other software engineers, hoping they get everything right, leaving me with no real connection to the flight control surfaces when the shit hits the fan.

I'd at least have to know what kind of engineering process and change management practices or functional safety procedures are being followed by the company developing this stuff before I'd even consider going for a ride in such a plane.

> In the US, trips that are 50-300 miles are almost all done by car because that distance is too short for commercial airlines and too far for public transportation.

A bit off-topic but this is a political problem, not a technical one. Trips of 50-300 miles are certainly within the operating range of fast and efficient rail travel as demonstrated in multiple places around the world outside of the US.

100% agreed. I'd love a high speed rail system in the US. but we're engineers not politicians :)
Sending more travelers into the sky in personal aircraft will also be a political issue.

I definitely applaud the goal of improving GA safety, there is certainly a lot to improve in that regard even if the end result isn't a huge increase in the number of family roadtrips taken in personal aircraft.

> there is certainly a lot to improve in that regard even if the end result isn't a huge increase in the number of family roadtrips taken in personal aircraft.

that's kind of how I see it too, the failed version of this is that GA is safer than it is today.

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Even just analyzing it on a person-mile-efficiency basis, moving from personal cars to personal aircraft is the wrong direction.

Trains obviously do well at that metric, but I'm not opposed to exploring other options on that side of the spectrum.

Pitching a market move towards smaller, less-efficient vehicles is anti-sustainable.

The better pitch for this kind of technology is probably on the order of modernizing flight training to improve safety and relevance of the pipeline that creates commercial aircraft pilots, rather than significantly expanding personal travel by personal aircraft.

Growing GA should also create a pipeline for commercial pilots which we desperately need. But let's be honest, flying commercial is a pretty poor experience. Getting to a major airport, getting through security, waiting to board, and then deplaning and waiting for bags at your destination adds hours to travel time. Door to door, I can get from LA to SF in the small plane faster than commercial even though I fly at ~1/3 the speed.

We want our airplanes to be more efficient than cars, but to get there we need to first scale the market.

> We want our airplanes to be more efficient than cars, but to get there we need to first scale the market.

Why is it that you think it's feasible to put all this effort to "scale the market", but getting to something like "building efficient passenger rail" or even "offer a comfortable, fast intercity bus" is out of your reach?

The US doesn't "need" flying. It needs a more efficient way to move passengers. To suggest that small planes are ever going to be more efficient than mass transit is delusional. The US needs to move away from "personal" transportation and invest in multi-modal, public mass-transit. And yes, there are still plenty of opportunities for engineers to do that.

> Why is it that you think it's feasible to put all this effort to "scale the market", but getting to something like "building efficient passenger rail" or even "offer a comfortable, fast intercity bus" is out of your reach?

Because personal planes will get them the attention and support (and more importantly, money) of wealthy customers and investors, and building rail gets you none of that because you're just suggesting using known technology and resources to solve problems, and that's boooooooring.

Why solve the actual transportation needs of a populace that cannot move efficiently when you can build yet another stupid toy for the rich?

I don't think that's fair. While I don't think personal aircraft is a net good, both things can be worked on at the same time.
It's not just a political problem. It's also a legal one due to the property rights involved.
In this case, as in many others, political problems are just legal problems at scale.
Can't the US govt buy back any land they want for infrastructure? I mean forcibly buy back.
Yes, it's called eminent domain. But if the government attempts to do so you can file a lawsuit and argue that they don't have a right to purchase your property from you. These lawsuits are expensive and take a lot of time/effort, which makes building a railway impractical by this method. To "solve" this politically would require a constitutional amendment, which is obviously not going to happen for this issue.
But, as a previous poster said, these problems always seem solveable when building a freeway.
I think it's a question of public support, political will, and stamina.

People think of freeways as vital, so it's ok if I-69 through southern Indiana takes over 30 years from initial studies to completion.

If a train route took 30 years to build, it would be lambasted as a boondoggle and abandoned.

Eminent domain means property rights issues for public infrastructure are also political issues.
They become legal issues when those cases go to court (which is what frequently occurs)
i don't understand why the government doesn't do stealth land acquisition more, with shell companies like denver airport
Interestingly I'm hosting my dad near Amsterdam for the week and to get from Sacramento to SFO (from where he flew to AMS) he... flew. Which I guess is logical, but seems insane to me when he lives close to Sacramento Amtrak which actually HAS good, regular service to SFO (via Bart, connecting at Richmond).

Even if you build the train some people won't give it a try, sadly. A lot of carbon was spewed in to the air to fly him and his suitcase over the capitol corridor tracks.

> Even if you build the train some people won't give it a try, sadly. A lot of carbon was spewed in to the air to fly him and his suitcase over the capitol corridor tracks.

They might be more willing to try if the service prices included the cost of the associated emissions.

Certainly!

It would also help if there were integrated ticketing the way there is in, say, Germany. If you buy a plane and a train ticket and miss a connection then you eat the cost of the ticket. Even better would be if luggage were integrated, but that would be asking for a lot more annoying security on trains I think.

I bet if you and he were travelling together he would do it. I've gotten people to join me on train trips when the option was something different - flying or taking a one hour taxi ride.
Yeah, a lot of the issue is familiarity. He's a pretty standard suburbanite and the train confuses him.
I really want to try Amtrak. I've looked at it a few times. But the only train line near me only has a train at it 2 or 3 times a week, at some crazy hour like 2:30am. If I'm taking a Monday-Thursday business trip, I'd have to arrive at my destination the Friday before and return home late night on Sunday. It's just not a realistic choice, unless you're really excited about trains.

It doesn't help that the website is terrible at helping you plan a trip, if you say "I want to leave on Monday" but there are no trains at the station on Monday, it just takes you to a page saying "there are no routes, sorry" instead of suggesting the next day a train is available. I found a download link for the train schedule, and it took me a solid 10 minutes to figure out what I was looking at. (If you're following along at home: the big bold date at the top of the page is completely irrelevant. It's just today's date, so you know when you downloaded the PDF. Because of course that's why you downloaded the PDF in the first place.)

I have a friend who is really excited about trains, and he wanted to take a weekend Amtrak trip. The only way he could make it work was to ride the train up and have someone at his destination who was willing to drive him back. And even then, most of the trip was plodding along in the darkness, because the train only stops at our city in the dead of night.

They're supposed to be putting in some new lines in the coming years, one of which will stop by our city. I'm cautiously optimistic, though I'm not sure how useful those lines will be if there's no trains rolling on them at reasonable hours.

This is also ignoring that it’s entirely possible for Amtrak to miss the schedule by literal days.
Most of the issues above are due to Amtrak running trains on tracks owned by freight railroads. By law those railroads are supposed to prioritize Amtrak traffic, but they often block or delay Amtrak with their operations and there’s no real penalty for doing so.

In places where Amtrak owns most of the track (ie the Northeast Corridor) service is much more frequent and reliable.

That’s a problem that is solvable by public investment in infrastructure.

I saw a cargo flight going from LAX to Ontario, California which looks like ~80km/50mi distance, which seems crazy to me.

I don't live in Europe, but I was there earlier this year going from Amsterdam to Paris. That's 430km/260mi direct from what I can find. I took the train, it took 3.5 hours, direct from central Amsterdam to central Paris, and no security theatre. And I had leg room!

It's a lovely ride. Even longer distances aren't too bad - to get to the alps, we take the night train from Amsterdam to Zurich. https://rail.cc/night-train/zurich-amsterdam-oebb-nightjet-n...

The train is a superior experience to flying in pretty much every way, the challenge is often cost - trains can be more expensive. And, of course, this is really only possible because flying doesn't have its externalities priced in.

A million times this. Modern and efficient train networks are the best way to travel, even for longer distances of a few thousand kilometers (night trains). Sure, there are still use cases for flying, but the dismissiveness of people who have never experienced great train travel against it just shocks me.
Hmmm I just flew from Bergamo, Italy to Liverpool, UK and it was basically four hours door to door from where I was staying to where I was going in Liverpool, and for less than €100. The train can’t do this.
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Bergamo to Liverpool is over 1700 km by road as per Google Maps.

The company is trying to solve transportation for the 50 to 300 mile range (around 80 to 500 km). Trains can easily do this.

Anyway, in China the Beijing to Guangzhou high-speed rail covers the 2200 km distance in 8 hours. Costs $120.

-----

Do note that — while I do understand there's an environmental impact (and I hope technology improves to eliminate this impact) — I'm not against flying. I love flying. In fact I wanted to become a commercial pilot myself.

Yeah by the same token I love trains too. I’d happily get the train between Bergamo and Liverpool but as it stands we’d probably be talking €500 and 12-24 hours with multiple changes. Flights can be had from €20.
Airplanes can't do this either. The reason you paid 100€ is that your ticket did not include paying for cleaning up the mess the plane has left behind

I'm happy for everyone to fly to and from work if they'd also pay for cleaning up the pollution it causes. We have several options, carbfix and olivine weathering come to mind but there's also at least one company who turns atmospheric CO2 back into fuel, we just need to start doing it after realising that what we're doing is only possible because the climate hasn't caught up with current habits yet

Yet despite airlines not being able to do it, it happened.
I think you understand the nonliteral meaning here
But also train tracks and infrastructure aren’t exactly free of mess all across the landscape. Flights can be had for as low as €20, which yeah, makes no sense at all.
Was about to post the same. Passing no judgement on this particular project, which must have been the result of honest hard work and dedication, but it's truly bizarre that people in the US would rather double down on the failed personal vehicle concept rather than embracing public transit, as more developed countries have.
Most people in the USA are too shy/prudish to say it but I think this is a conversation that needs to be opened:

Americans are so resistant to public transportation because the public seriously sucks to deal with. There will be no popular utilization of public transit until we implement strong economic safety nets and extensive support/mandatory detention of people that are mentally ill. Those problems are much harder to overcome while maintaining an American standard of personal liberty than even the complications surrounding building rail. As a native of San Francisco and the surrounding area I have tried for decades to utilize public transit. The infrastructure isn’t great, but it’s also not terrible or anything. But in years where my job/living situation have me using public transit every day, my rate of exposure to human excrement or someone who wouldn’t even be aware that they physically harmed me was greater than once a week. In phases of my life where I’m driving everywhere that rate is practically zero. That stress takes a toll on my health that I have a natural instinct to avoid.

You aren't wrong, although your comfortable car ride also includes huge amounts of risk of personal injury, we just tend to not think about that until it happens.

The lack of other places for people to go often leaves public transit facilities as a place for homeless people to congregate or seek shelter.

The US also tends to treat public transit as welfare transit in general. A transportation option of last resort for those who can't afford a car, where the primary goal is being inexpensive, instead of being the best and most efficient way to move around a city for all citizens.

Transit stations in the US also generally don't have revenue-generating amenities like food, coffee, or shopping. This makes them money sinks instead of revenue sources that pay for their own cleaning and security etc.

“A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It's where the rich use public transportation.”

Public transit exists in the US. I take a train to work.

But the problem you're not understanding is that we're not Europe. We don't all live in cities within a couple of miles of our workplaces. Even me, I've got a sixty mile commute, I'm fortunate that there is a commuter train -- but I still have to drive five miles to get to the station. There's no other way, it's not even safe to walk if I felt like walking five miles. I can't live where I work, it would triple my mortgage.

I can't go anywhere else on a train. I can't go to the grocery store on a train, there aren't any.

The US is big. It's just the way it is, and it's not going to change.

The US used to have dirt roads and no highway system.

It also used to have streetcar networks in most major cities and suburbs. And shops you could walk to from your house.

Amsterdam used to have a city center full of cars, parking lots, and no bike paths.

Things can change. It’s harder for them to change when we sit around and say “It’s just the way it is, it’s not going to change”

I think you're not really understanding the scope of the problem.

We have a train network. Amtrak is barely used, costs more than flying, and you still have to rent a car at the end of your multi-day trip on the train. The US is HUGE.

I lived in a mass transit society (Japan) for years. It's fundamentally different, in ways that aren't changeable.

I understand the scope of the problem. Saying nothing can change is also wrong.

We literally built a nationwide interstate highway system in this country which included bulldozing downtowns and spending the equivalent of hundreds of billions of dollars to do it. That wasn't that long ago, we're the same country in most ways.

It's a political problem at all levels. Not a technology or physics problem.

Looking at the full scope of the country and saying because the overall problem is large we can't take any steps to improve it is defeatist.

The interstate highway network is a problem at least two orders of magnitude smaller than what you want.
I’m not sure you understand what I want then. I never said I want the US to have the same level of public transit ridership as the Japan, or replace all car journeys with trains.

I was specifically responding to a quote that trips of 50-300 miles are too long for public transit. That is demonstrably untrue around the world.

And using that as a justification to try to solve the problem using personal airplanes instead of real working solutions that scale to high capacity at low emissions seems silly to me.

I’m begging for trains in the Texas triangle. It’s such a perfect use case. It’s ~3 hours between any of San Antonio-Austin, Houston, and Dallas-Fort Worth. Long enough to be a horrible drive, short enough to be a waste of a flight. There’s also not much density in between to contend with.
Always happy to see new GA aircraft, and the tech here looks very cool. The emergency autoland and chute will definitely be lifesavers. If your system can reliably prevent base-final stall spins then that would clearly be awesome.

One thing that jumped out at me is what are you trading to get that protection? While I have no issues with fly by wire, I'd be nervous about a GA aircraft that's overly opinionated about what it should be doing vs how to do it.

* Can I put it into a forward slip, or will it refuse or return to coordinated flight? This could be critical in an engine related emergency where you're too high and can't or don't want to risk getting farther from the airport.

* If I need to make a steep turn to avoid someone heading the wrong way on base is it going to let me?

I see the value in stall prevention but, outside of stall spin on final, that's largely been solved in GA via passive aero design characteristics making it tough to stall and harder to stay stalled.

> If your system can reliably prevent base-final stall spins then that would clearly be awesome.

This was actually a core inspiration for this project. A student on his first solo at an airport north of me crashed on his base to final turn.

> Can I put it into a forward slip, or will it refuse or return to coordinated flight?

Yes, you can make if forward slip. It's a bit clever imo--you just "ask" for low speed and a high descent rate and the energy controllers in the flight computer will figure out that a forward slip is the best way to achieve that. We also have independent ailerons that can be used as spoilers for an even faster descent.

> If I need to make a steep turn to avoid someone heading the wrong way on base is it going to let me?

yep! just push the stick full deflection. you'll feel the active stick fight back because it doesn't want to bank that steeply in normal flight, but you are in control of the plane and it will do anything you command up to it's aerodynamic and structural limits.

>> If your system can reliably prevent base-final stall spins then that would clearly be awesome.

I keep thinking we need more canard aircraft - they don't stall. Most of them are designed with laminar flow wings and no flaps, so landing speeds are higher which makes them less safe and not good for grass strips. I'd like to see a stall-free aircraft without those drawbacks of canards.

Look up the Vashon Ranger, the Kitfox, and the Foxbat. You really cannot stall them by accident and they're conventional layouts. The Ranger/Foxes will just nosedown if you even manage to get them into a stall. We could also bring back biplanes and make some AN-2 derivatives.

I think a cheaper approach to what Airhart is trying to accomplish (from a don't kill pilots perspective) would be to make an aftermarket smart stall horn that could warn earlier and maybe gives some audio/visual feedback if you're getting uncoordinated at a certain angle of attack.

First of all: great that you’re working on bringing innovation to general aviation! During training I also wondered about some technical aspects, as a lot of the tech in an airplane is from almost 60-70 years ago.

However, as a PPL holder myself I think that understanding weight and balance, aerodynamics, flight planning, ATC, airlaw, principles of flight etc. is paramount to keep yourself and others safe.

In the air you cannot simply drive to the side of the road and have a look at what’s going on. As a pilot you must be able to make decisions on the spot. To be able to make those properly, you have to understand what’s going on from first principles. In aviation safety is the primary goal. Statistically more than 80% of aviation accidents can be traced back to human error. Anything that facilitates bringing people in the pilot seat suggesting they need less training is something i strictly oppose.

Despite, anything that helps to simplify aircraft operations may decrease cognitive load and is therefore welcome.

I guess you're aware of the ICAO/FAA hoops you have to jump through to get anything of what you're developing beyond experimental certificate but having seen how long it took e.g. Volocopter to gain their (still incomplete) type certificate it is a long road.

If you'd be able to simplify avionics and create an affordable standardized fly-by-wire kit that alone would be a great innovation for GA especially in the ultralight and light sport aircraft category.

I wish you all the best!

thanks! I 100% agree with your comments.

> anything that helps to simplify aircraft operations may decrease cognitive load and is therefore welcome.

exactly. decreasing cognitive load is very important and I think we as existing pilots tend to forget how much of their cognitive load goes to just aviating. But the students who drop out certainly don't.

This is fascinating.

Other, smarter commenters will undoubtedly point out potential issues…but since I am a decidedly uninformed groundling, I hope you succeed.

Ambitious, complicated, probably-impossible challenges create space for the kind of projects which could actually change the world.

Sounds tough…good luck!

thanks! my hope is to eventually make you a well informed airling!
Really cool to see people working on tough problems.

Are you building your own FADEC system, or working with existing engine control systems?

thanks!

initially we'll be working with existing systems (specifically, a Rotax 916iS) which has an almost-FADEC, but we're adding our own systems on top of it to add push to start, full control of the throttle, automated restart in the case of an engine failure in flight, and full data collection to better predict when maintenance is going to be needed.

Presumably anyone who wants to fly this would still have to go through a traditional pilot qualification with an old-school plane? So this is actually targeting people who do fly airplanes, but want to be more comfortable and more able to focus on the navigation and general enjoyment of the air while reducing the actual risk of flying, rather than having to, as you put it, micromanage the aircraft. As someone who likes nothing better than to look out of the window of a passenger jet with the GPS and map on my phone in my hand to see where I am, and to know which geographical features are unravelling below, I kinda get it.
They don't necessarily have to learn in an old school plane. In fact, our early adopters who aren't pilots will be getting their flight training through us in an Airhart airplane (included in the purchase of the airplane)

In the near future, a new set of regulations is coming out called MOSAIC, which will allow pilots to learn how to fly purely in simplified control aircraft. This is expected to come roughly at the same time as when we begin production, so we hope that new pilots will be able to learn under these new regulations and not have to learn the old-school way of flying at all.

From a marketing and pitch perspective, I’m imagining the “shake up” potential of your plane being much more ala iPhone or Tesla. Hard to describe but once you experience it you get a diehard fan that won’t go back to whatever else is on the market.

Is your first plane more of a roadster or a model 3, and what does your path look like to getting to a plane that has a cult following?

this is definitely more of the "roadster". we will be building a limited number to get it into peoples hands as quickly as possible, with future models being lower cost, more efficient, and hopefully even better in terms of control systems, avionics, and autonomy
First of, so nice to see someone solving hard problem. Best of luck to you and your team.

Do you see the overcrowding of airspace as a concern at all?

Eventually, it might be. Currently, the US airspace system could handle ~10x the GA traffic we have today (I'm basing this on the fact that when we were building it up in the 70s, we were selling and flying ~10x more airplanes than we do today).

However, as we get to much larger scales, we can start using our aircraft to actually augment ATC to help handle the traffic. the airplanes can have more intelligent communication systems to coordinate with each other and the pilots and automatically send and receive data to/from ATC with digital comms rather than voice radio. That's an entirely separate project and company though when Airhart is a huge success and we hit this problem :)

I got my PPL a while ago, and I'm super excited about this! Though, I'm mostly a renter, so I may not be of much support to purchase at $500,000.

This would be quite the upgrade from a 1980's Cessna.

I guess we'll have to wait for the new standards, but things like learning about the engine, stall recovery and crosswinds are a pretty major part of aviation training. Though the plane can do these things, I'm not sure how much training will be abstracted away (since it's a generic curriculum and we can fly most ASEL).

Few questions:

1. Does the flight controller have a back-up?

2. What does the override for controlling rudder and aileron look like. How about spin recovery or taxing with headwinds?

3. Would you sell your avionics set-up so I can retrofit and replace a Garmin System. I've always found Garmin's to be tricky and hard to read. Yours looks waay better

4. Love the Live ATC transcriptions

Best of luck! Hoping I get to fly one of these some day.

congrats on the PPL! we understand that 500k is a high price point for a lot of people (but still cheaper than a new SR20 and we have the same performance and better fuel economy), but our goal is to get to a scale where our 3rd model costs <$100k.

1. the flight controller is triply redundant, so it's basically 3 flight controllers and any 2 can fail and the system will still function (though with a greater risk posture as you now don't know if that 3rd one is giving correct information. There's also an emergency reversionary mode to fly the airplane directly without the flight controller in the loop

2. We don't think that a direct override is necessary or even recommended. We're relying on the fact that we have multiple sensors, flight computers, and servos to make sure that the probability of being wrong is < 1e-7. You can't force a spin in the system and the system will always leave enough buffer so that external factors can't initiate a spin. but if one happens, spin recovery is automatic.

3. We are exploring this possibility. If you are genuinely interested, fill out the contact form on our website and we'll talk.

4. Thanks! we are actively debating making this a standalone radio product for any airplane to replace an existing comm radio

First, Soylent names their company after a famous product made out of humans.

Then iRobot and now an aviation company named after the most famous dead aviator.

Seems... not ideal.

Could this enable a cheaper flight as a service? Short hops from city to city or the cottage, with cheaper pilots it could be lower cost.
I hope so! That's definitely a use case we want to see happen, but when you start charging people for flights things get... complicated
These are the kinds of problems, when I was younger, I always imagined the tech industry would be solving. This is just so cool. Congratulations to you and your team and I really hope a future of small, safe, and affordable personal aircrafts becomes a reality!
While I think the project is pretty cool, I can't shake the pollution side of things out of my mind.

Air transport is one of the most polluting ways to travel, and I would expect a single person airplane is even worse than a full A380.

Is there anything you're doing to alleviate this issue ?

Our early model you see here will use unleaded fuel rather than traditional low-lead fuel used in aviation today. The master plan is to use the scale we will create in this new market and invest it into green propulsion tech for our future aircraft. A lot is going to change in that space over the next 5 years so I'm very interested to see where things go, but I suspect hybrid-electric will be the move for the first generation of green aircraft.
How does further reducing lead in the fuel compare to all the other emissions' impact?

I would imagine that lead is dangerous for a long as it's being used, whereas CO2 has an annoyingly long half life that we need to actively remove in (currently) time- or energy-intensive processes, while it's reducing healthy years of life for millions of people —speaking of air pollution from combustion in general here, I don't have specific numbers for airplanes but as an airplane company you are surely better aware of this than me

> green propulsion tech

Fact of the lead content, the wishes and the promises of your post have a place here.

However "Green" only sounds good in a marketing pitches. While it might resonate with potential customers who are already sold on the idea, it can come across as vague and insubstantial to those trying to understand your response.

It sounds misleading and deceptive for the individuals who are skeptical of the environmental impact.

fair criticism--I should be more specific than just "green".

our first model will still be a gasoline ICE airplane, but we are building a limited number of them to get our tech out there and get a new wave of people excited about GA. out future aircraft will be able to utilize our fly-by-wire/simplified controls to fly more aerodynamically efficient airframes that will use less energy, whatever that source is. We can do this because these airframes would be too unstable for a human to fly by hand, hence the need for fly-by-wire/simplified controls in the loop.

today, we don't have a good alternative to ICE for airplanes that also meets the mission profile of the vehicle. I personally think hybrid electric is at least the next step, with hydrogen (though that has it's own challenges) coming after.

Take a look at the more economical modern GA aircraft. A Cirrus SR22 can run at 10 gallons per hour, with a ground speed of 160+ mph.

Yes, it’s more total fuel consumption than a car (but in an hour covering 2x the distance, and allowing to travel more directly) but not at all close to turbine or turboprops. At the extremely cheap (accessible to more pilots) side for pressurized planes, fuel burn is going to be 40gph and it just goes up from there.

There are many variables, and winds work for or against—but by doing good flight planning you use the winds to your advantage.

There is also a lot of research on better aviation fuels (100ll :(((). I’m excited about that part of it, more so than the current electric planes (although electric self-launching gliders are pretty neat)

MOSIAC is going to make light sport aircraft more useful, which will also help in this area.

Tons of interesting stuff happening here!

yep! lots of interesting stuff indeed!

Our plane will be ~7 gph at cruise burning unleaded fuels and fly ~170mph over the ground (with no wind)

For my part, I find it questionable to invest in and develop a transport technology that consumes seven times as much fossil fuel as a car.

You give consumption of 7 gallons in cruise mode. I don't want to know what is burnt during take-off or landing.

How do you get seven times?

Takeoff constitutes a negligible part of the total fuel consumption. Climb to altitude uses more, but you get that back when landing since you're then using your stored potential energy.

Small-aircraft GA is a vanishingly small fraction of total fossil fuel use, and it will be quite easy to replace that with some renewable fuel solution (compared with the huge amounts of fuel consumed by transport aircraft). For my part, I think it would be a shame to kill GA because of a temporary and relatively unimportant concern.

> Small-aircraft GA is a vanishingly small fraction of total fossil fuel use

OP wrote: "We want people who don’t think about airplanes as a mode of transportation to start flying"

They're meaning for this to become a larger fraction, besides that the relevant measure is pollution per benefit or per capita or something rather than absolute amount of pollution

So you're concluding that there is no benefit to general aviation because, presumably, you don't fly?

I think we should absolutely keep airplanes as a mode of transportation, because the alternative is that all small airports go away and then it won't matter when renewable fuels become a reality because there will be no longer be anywhere to land and take off. Those airports would not come back.

> because, presumably, you don't fly?

First off, you've got this backwards. One doesn't have an opinion because one flies or not; conversely, one flies or not because one concludes their situation does or does not warrant the pollution for a particular destination

But equally weird, why are you making this about me personally? If I say I don't fly, that's probably unusual where you're from so I'll be the environmentalist out-group whose opinion is too extreme and can be dismissed. If I do I'll be considered a hypocrite (like what you called someone in the other thread). I can tell you the answer is a middle ground but I don't think it helps anyone here to make this about me. I'd much rather make this about facts and science rather than opinions and feelings

> I think we should absolutely keep airplanes as a mode of transportation

I agree, but since nobody said anything to the contrary, that seems like a given

> How do you get seven times?

I asked chatgpt what the average consumption of a car is; the answer was 0.5-1 gallon on a highway.

Don't confuse gallons per hour with gallons per mile.
True. Next, don't forget that airplanes cover about 3x the distance as cars per hour. So, per mile they are on par with bad cars, and about 2x normal cars.
> Cruise Speed 148 KTAS is equivalent to approximately 170 mph or 275 km/h.

if the consumption is 7 times as high (very conservative calculation) and the speed is about twice as high, we are still at a modifier of 3.5. right?

Too much for me. We should be aiming for the absolute minimisation of fossil fuels.

Speed is thrice, thus modifier = 2, or so.

Look, this is peanuts compared to everyday consumption by the world.

> We should be aiming for the absolute minimisation of fossil fuels.

Should we? We could easily do that. Just stop cars and busses and trains and planes and heating and the production of medicine and everything else.

Oh, our life would be much worse.

As a matter of fact, we should not aim for "the absolute minimisation of fossil fuels". Not at all. It is dispiriting for me to learn that you believe such primitive nonsense.

Seriously, you need to learn the basics of economics and trade-offs and all that.

That’s only 25 mpg which is widely considered to be unacceptably unsustainable even in the short term.
A Quick Look at FuelEconomy.gov shows many modern cars for sale with highway efficiency of 25mpg or less. Some (many?) people may judge it unconscionable, but it’s clearly acceptable to the broader market and current regulations.

These models seem to be big (Volkswagen Atlas, Subaru Ascent, Ford F150) or fast (Audi RS5, Porche 911, Kia Stinger). If you can get similar mpg from an airplane that carries four people and their luggage at 100+ mph ground speed on a more direct (shorter) route… that’s very compelling to me.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=noform...

So, reducing car emissions by a just 1% would be way better for the environment than entirely removing all piston engine aviation.

There are about 15m cars sold in the US every year, but around 1500 piston engine planes. That's a factor of 10,000. There are some 210m cars in use in the USA, but around 150k piston engine planes. That's a factor of 1400 (reflecting the fact that planes have a much longer life than cars, further contributing to their lower environmental impact).

Every day, cars burn more fuel than light airplanes burn in a year.

This project is a minuscule rounding error in climate change drivers.

You can argue for its convenience/speed/fun, but fuel efficiency does not look good for GA aircraft. Even for your modern GA aircraft example, it literally comes to 16 mpg. This is as bad as worst of the trucks out there. While it's great if existing use cases of GA aircrafts would become more efficient, adding demand in this area (more hobbyists, more rich people shuttling use, encouraging people to live in very remote areas, etc.) and using it as transportation-mode will unlikely ever become environmentally reasonable.
All that is true, but it’s also getting better. And 16mpg over shorter routes (a 100nm flight vs 200 mile drive is not unusual) makes it harder to compare apples to oranges.

We don’t really have hybrid planes yet, which will likely help in the most inefficient parts of flying (climb).

My comment is to add more information to the discussion to consider many aspects, not to make claims that it’s a fuel-sensible method of travel. I am excited for innovation here, just like I am excited for the continued improvements in hybrid and electric cars.

Some of the LSAs I've flown are not actually that bad pollution/climate wise. Slightly less green per mile than my mini cooper, way more green than basically any common American pickup truck.
MPG-wise sure. Emissions-wise almost certainly not. Airplanes don't have catalytic converters, exhaust recirculation, etc.
Does this include the emissions portal-to-portal? Airports tend to be nowhere near destinations because people don’t like living near all the pollution airplanes spew.
Most of my trips in small planes are pretty point to point. The airports I've used have been between 1 and 5 miles from my house and most of my destinations were similarly close (I just checked one destination and it was 200 meters).

Not sure where you're from but airport density in the US is incredibly high thanks to WWII and Cold War leftover infrastructure (and a fairly robust GA culture up through the 80s). People just don't notice their little local airports unless they fly.

This looks really cool! I'm curious if you're able to share any details on how you plan to manage autonomous landing. There are obviously a lot of moving parts there from communicating with ATC, finding a safe landing zone, actually bringing the plane down, and I'm sure many other things I haven't thought of as a non-pilot.
our system has a complete picture of what airports exist in the vicinity and can plan a path to get their fairly trivially. ATC communication can be done by the system automatically as a "broadcast only" emergency message with it's intentions and rely on ATC to give the airplane priority (though we'll have obstacle avoidance as well to avoid other traffic that ATC can't get out of the way). There are other systems on board that let ATC know that your airplane is in an emergency and needs to full priority.
As someone who lives very near to a small airport with many small planes taking off and landing every day, and also has a young child, I have grown increasingly concerned with the use of lead in the fuel of these planes.

Do these planes you are building burn fuel containing lead? If so, how can you justify a 10x increase in small plane traffic, as you have stated is the goal or at least the potential capacity elsewhere in this thread?

We are concerned about that too. Our first airplane, the Airhart Sling uses unleaded fuel. In future models, we will be investing into greener propulsion tech.