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(For those unfamiliar - the article's authors are a current Supreme Court judge and a former Supreme Court law clerk.)
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I didn't see mention of copyright, which is by far the most contradictory and complicated set of laws we as middle class citizens run a foul of on an everyday basis.

Why is that?

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It gets a passing mention:

> A 24-year-old who downloads academic articles that don’t belong to him isn’t just reprimanded; now we threaten him with decades in federal prison.

Well, the whole thing is less about general categories of law and more about specific examples - and one of those specific examples is the Aaron Swartz case, with a link to The Atlantic article about that and everything.

I would say that he, at least, covers it.

I'm probably a little older than the average HN commenter. I've heard these "ha ha here's a dumb law about sounding a car's horn around horses" my entire life.

Specific examples of bizarre, or outdated laws serve no one, and do not reveal an underlying problem other than some legislature hasn't gotten around to dumping outdated, or bizarre laws.

Yeah, agreed. Obviously I have no doubt that the rule book is currently bigger than it has been in the past, but I also know that the Cuyahoga River used to catch on fire and the ozone layer was disappearing.

There's a good case to be made for rationalizing the number of laws, but merely focusing on the sheer size of the federal code and pulling out a few silly examples doesn't even come close to having a serious discussion on the topic.

Copyright serves the elite. The things those in power want to deregulate are always things that protect the public like worker and environmental laws. There was a reason that buildings went up faster in the 1930s - (poor) people died and the materials were dangerous.
I struggle with taking anything Gorsuch writes seriously. He seems to dream of a world where federal agencies have no power to regulate things but instead all disputes are decided by courts (or Congress needs to write laws that cover all cases). Going to court usually favors the party that can afford lawyers and expert witnesses. I agree that it would be good to clean up a lot of laws and rule. But considering that this criticism is coming from a person who claims to be able to divine what people had in their minds 250 years ago when they wrote a constitution makes it pretty dishonest in my view.
That's not a bug, that's a feature.

The school of thought that Gorsuch and others subscribe to is one where the US was basically supposed to be an extension of 18th-century England, just without the Crown. This was more-or-less how the antebellum south was set up. You had peasants living in housing provided by the landed gentry in exchange for the outputs of their labor at enterprises that are held by the landed gentry. The landed gentry is the landed gentry because a higher power anointed them to be so, or because social Darwinism simply selected them as such. Those who oppose this are thus opposed to nature and cannot be entertained, much less allowed to wield the power of the state to protect what they see to be their rights.

Now replace "peasant" with "working class" and "landed gentry" with "investors". Ta-da. You have the ideal system in these people's minds for the modern world.

I wish there were a solution to managing whatever the equivalent of software-creep (law-creep?) in this space. Are there any examples of countries/governments that have successfully implemented such systems.

Either way, I don't like how things (hot takes from people, journalists, politicians businesses, whatever) are constantly framed as being pro/anti laws (or regulation). This seems to always at the end of the day serve "the elites" in one way or another: whether it's adding regulations to keep out competition from the little upstarts or getting rid of it to expand marketshare at the expense of consumer-harm.

Question should always be pointedly reframed as: do we have the "right" laws. Not as: do we have too many or too little. This ultimately means nothing and feels like a distraction from the bigger issues.

/end arm chair rant.

That's the idea behind a constitution of enumerated powers, but those appear to lose their restraining force over a few generations.

I'd favor an amendment placing a sunset clause on every statute, and no omnibuses, such that the legislature only has enough time in session to keep a finite set of laws in effect.

> placing a sunset clause on every statute, and no omnibuses

Watch out, murder statute sunsets tomorrow and the Congress is gridlocked! Why are they gridlocked? They can’t string together broad compromises without everyone suing over what constitutes an omnibus.

Fair, but...

You get the Congress you vote for. If you need Congress to work together instead of acting like idiots, vote for people who will work together instead of acting like idiots. If you won't, this is the kind of Congress you get.

We haven't been feeling the pain because of the executive branch. But now Chevron is overturned...

(Also, murder is going to be against state laws even without federal ones, so this won't turn into the murder crisis that you suggest.)

> You get the Congress you vote for

You also get the people your country comes with ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

> murder is going to be against state laws even without federal ones, so this won't turn into the murder crisis

Fair enough. There might be truth to bills passed without a supermajority having an automatic sunset. The benefit there being it could be rolled back retroactively.

That said, Congress loves a crisis. Having the existence of every Department, agency and court subject up for grabs if the Congress (or any legislative body) falls into temporary paralysis sounds like a good way to justify a coup.

The US voting system doesn't give you the Congress you vote for. We saw that with Ross Perot in the 90s. 19% of votes and zero representation.
> US voting system doesn't give you the Congress you vote for. We saw that with Ross Perot in the 90s. 19% of votes and zero representation.

The President and Congress are separate things.

The same thing would happen with a party that receives 20% of the vote. No representation
Not very likely. Even "gridlocked" Congresses pass a lot of legislation, it just doesn't attract much attention.
Sounds like a fun idea. I think we should elect and hire a committee to delete laws. Make it a fork of the law making formula.
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Let's get concrete here on the BS laws.

Does the law hope to prevent people from causing harm, physical, financial, etc, to others or their property? Keep it.

Does the law aim to prevent people from harming themselves, excluding suicide? Toss it out, freedom. [i.e. heavy taxes on soda; mandatory helmets]. Some jurisdictions try to enumerate every little possible way a bad thing could happen and make it a fineable offense, and it comes off as very much "invasive HOA" energy

Does the law aim to indirectly incentivize particular behaviors for political goals? Toss it [i.e. some parts of California have fully failed permitting systems which prevent any new houses from being built whatsoever, which is great for the environment since all development has been permanently halted. the faulted law is gladly allowed to persist with the hidden political reason behind it]

Now as for monopolies I think we have entered a bizarre system of mostly duopolies. The OS duopoly. the cell phone duopoly. search engine duopoly. Streaming duopoly. Social media duopoly. the stock markets is a duopoly. our political system is a duopoly. coke and pepsi. and so on. what we do need on the point of looking out for the "little upstarts" is a very careful investigation of these duopolies to see if they are truly competing for all their worth, or if there's a backroom agreement on things. I believe tech is a little thicker on the backroom agreements

The irony to me is that he just voted to overturn the Chevron doctrine. There's no way that doesn't lead to a huge increase in the number of laws.
> irony to me is that he just voted to overturn the Chevron doctrine. There's no way that doesn't lead to a huge increase in the number of laws

In only the most technical sense. Practically speaking, reducing the set of restrictions from laws, narrowly-constructed rules and broadly-constructed rules to just the first two will reduce restrictions. (I personally believe most of those restrictions are valid. But there are good arguments for and against Chevron.)

Read the article, it also calls out regulations, and the growth of guidance documents.
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I'm always skeptical of calls like this.

It's an easy argument to make for sure, and likely true-ish. It's fun to come up with examples of providing paper copies to each individual. But I don't need a paper copy, and I can't remember the last time I felt compelled to read a law, maybe never?

Does it matter that it's "it’s a federal crime to enter a post office while intoxicated"? Are these examples really what the author is concerned about?

"By federal decree, macaroni must have a diameter between 0.11 and 0.27 inches, while vermicelli must not be more than 0.06 inches in diameter."

That's fine with me, that just means there's consistency across a product... that seems almost absurd to take issue with.

There are some examples later on of abuses, but those strike me as abuses that if it wasn't one misapplied law, it would be another. The existence of law when someone makes a poor choice doesn't make the law the problem.

I feel like a lot of these calls are really just appeals for "reforms" that aren't there for me, they're there for those who already have an advantage over me in the legal process...

> "By federal decree, macaroni must have a diameter between 0.11 and 0.27 inches, while vermicelli must not be more than 0.06 inches in diameter." That's fine with me, that just means there's consistency across a product... that seems almost absurd to take issue with.

The point is this adds a burden to small producers, particularly upstarts, while giving anti-competitive avenues of action to incumbents. Even if you’re complying with the rule, there is a cost to proving compliance and dealing with regulators.

Why shouldn’t you be able to sell macaroni if your machinery isn’t precise enough to meet those tolerances every time? (And why is that the federal government’s business.)

>Why shouldn’t you be able to sell macaroni

Because there is a standard to what "macaroni" is?

Otherwise call it something else. You can still sell pasta.

Having standards for food is very nice for citizens. For me it makes cooking far easier knowing if something actually is what it says it is. It actually matters.

> there is a standard to what "macaroni" is?

Do you really think the American public is better served by being protected from extra-thick or thin macaroni? What fraction of Americans know the difference between regulation-standard macaroni and other pasta?

> call it something else. You can still sell pasta

Sure. Too bad if you didn’t hire a lawyer before you started selling macaroni.

Yes I think being able to know what a product is by its name is very valuable, and it's obvious why.

I have no idea what your other statement means.

> being able to know what a product is by its name is very valuable

Sure. But this is arbitrary.

The vermicelli definition doesn’t match Italy’s, for instance. So you’ve “protected” Americans from the competition of Italian producers who can’t pay to repackage.

> no idea what your other statement means

Point is I would love to have obscure definitions around what my product should be that arbitrarily match my current offerings. If anyone tries to compete I can put them out of business for making an honest mistake, or force them to have to market convolutedly. (Can’t be mac ‘n’ cheese if it isn’t made in a factory!)

There's an easy and widely exploited loophole. Your competitor can just call their product "makaroni" or "compares to macaroni" or something.

I quite like this setup. It's nice to know the difference between cheese and "cheese product".

> competitor can just call their product "makaroni" or "compares to macaroni" or something

If you know. If you’re Kraft, you do this. If you’re making homemade mac ‘n’ cheese, you get a cease and desist from Kraft. (Or god forbid trying to sell Italian vermicelli.)

Let’s say your small producer can afford to hire a macaroni lawyer to figure out what’s going on. Who do you think is their regular client? How many could even pass conflicts? You may very well have no practicing macaroni lawyers in your state, which means you’re now getting someone reading the rules for the first time versus a team with warm contacts at the FDA and USDA.

reductio ad absurdum. There are no macaroni lawyers.
> There are no macaroni lawyers

Why would you believe this?

There is macaroni law [1]. (With a paywalled reference [2].) There is a macaroni trade association [3]. There are macaroni lawsuits [4].

It would be absurd for there not be lawyers who specialise in pasta/macaroni. (They're the same thing under federal law [5].) What would be less surprising is if they all work for the trade body and its members.

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/21/139.110

[2] https://www.aoac.org/official-methods-of-analysis/

[3] https://ilovepasta.org

[4] https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/345...

[5] https://fdastorytime.com/2018/10/10/name-that-food-macaroni-...

The solution is already provided for you, call your product something else.
Everything is arbitrary if you look at it hard enough. Why do we have to drive on the right side of the road? Arbitrary.

> So you’ve “protected” Americans from the competition of Italian producers who can’t pay to repackage.

Any food producer who wants to export to the US already has to pay for a US-specific label, including ingredient list and nutritional info. In fact, that would be true for almost any other country as well.

And that's a good thing. If you can't even bother to print a label that tells the buyers what it's made of, in a language they can read, forget about it.

> Why do we have to drive on the right side of the road?

Nobody dies if someone's macaroni is thicker or thinner than another's.

> Any food producer who wants to export to the US already has to pay for a US-specific label

Plenty of imported foods don't do this. They're supposed to [1]. But as long as you stick to specialty stores, the trade association [2] is unlikely to go after you.

[1] https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidan...

[2] https://ilovepasta.org

You should be able to sell what you like as macaroni.

Look I fully agree we need oversight for things like supplements and chemicals.

But macaroni?

I should be able to buy what I like, and know what it is going to be based on the name.

Standards do that.

If you want to sell something like macaroni but doesn't fit the standard, you can, just call it something else.

> know what it is going to be based on the name

How often do you switch macaroni brands?

Does it matter?

The standard would apply to all, including whatever I buy.

> Does it matter?

Of course. You’re using consumer search costs as your argument for regulation. If you don’t switch brands, that cost is incurred less frequently. You’re using the brand, not the rule, as your filter.

That's not my argument.

I don't even have to search, that's the point. I know what the thing is based on the name, done. I cook, I know what the results are.

> I don't even have to search, that's the point. I know what the thing is based on the name, done

Yes, you're avoiding a search cost. That's your argument for standardising the name. You're choosing a measure of standardisation in exchange for restricted variety and a marginally-higher price. (Even if you don't perceive either.) The utility of standardised labelling is reduced consumer search costs.

If you aren't changing brands frequently, you aren't choosing based on the word "macaroni." You're choosing based on the brand. You now what Kraft macaroni (or whatever) tastes like. You don't know what any macaroni tastes like, because they all taste very different, because the thickness of a pasta is one among many variables in play.

But in common parlance, macaroni is a curved noodle. No one really cares. Plus, many people mean completely different things when they say macaroni. Who is the government to decide what people should call what? Again, where safety is involved (supplements, medicine, nutrition)... fine, but common pasta names?
> But macaroni?

And the thickness of it, no less. Not the ingredients. Not the nutritional content. The thickness.

The opposite from the Italians.
> opposite from the Italians

This is almost certainly intentional. It reduces competition from imports since anyone who wants to distribute in America has to pay to repackage.

But the flip side is that it removes burden from consumers. That’s almost always good.
Or, more to the point: why should I have to hire an expensive lawyer who's an expert on macaroni law to make sure I'm not going to potentially land myself in federal prison (or at least be subject to fines) when I start my new macaroni business blissfully unaware of said law? Why should the federal government spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars hosting a trial in front of a jury of a dozen people who all had to take time out of their day to decide beyond a reasonable doubt whether the macaroni I sold was, in fact 0.28 inches in diameter, and that I deserve to be punished for this horrible oversight? Why should I have to hire someone to regularly take a sample of the macaroni coming off my line and inspect it to check that it's less than 0.27 inches in diameter, and file a 5 page annual report on the thickness of my macaroni with the federal Office of Noodle Protection to ensure I'm in compliance with the updated 2024 Guidelines for the Measurement of Pasta and Pasta-like Products? (Okay, obviously I'm just making things up at this point but you get the picture.)

Like, sure, in theory it seems nice to have some limits on what sellers are allowed to call macaroni. But there's a huge cost to these laws/regulations that goes beyond just the actual cost of adhering to the law. In my opinion any time the government does anything to intervene in private affairs it ought to have much stronger justification than just "wouldn't it be nice if..."

> why should I have to hire an expensive lawyer who's an expert on macaroni law

And who do you think are the macaroni lawyers’ largest clients?

The purpose of this rule is to ensure only certain people can produce macaroni.

>The purpose of this rule is to ensure only certain people can produce macaroni.

You keep saying that, is it true?

I have a huge variety of macaroni and pasta options at my local store, made by all sorts of different suppliers, including small local businesses...

> keep saying that, is it true?

Yes. Specifically for Italian pastas. There is an import/export lobby that benefits from disparate labelling requirements. It came up during the pandemic around bucatini, which the FDA considers a macaroni product [1].

Of course, none of this matters if you can afford it. Plenty of Italian producers will ship you food labelled as furniture. But that is expensive since to set up.

Every supermarket food has layers of these compliance costs built into the price.

[1] https://www.grubstreet.com/2020/12/2020-bucatini-shortage-in...

I had trouble finishing (I didn't) that article, it was a little too long winded and a little hysterical for me.

Oddly enough, there's a ton of De Cecco and Bucatini at my local grocery store.... conspiracy over?

> there's a ton of De Cecco and Bucatini at my local grocery store.... conspiracy over?

You asked for a source, couldn't manage to read it, couldn't manage to have it even summarised for you into simpler English and concluded conspiracy.

And yes, the shortage is over. But the article goes into why there was a shortage in America. And it had to do with requirements around macaroni products.

On a certain level, the current system works. Supermarkets serve industrial food that can be sold at a solid profit. Those profits pay some people more who can then buy a greater variety of food for cheaper than is broadly available. Win win.

I'm not even sure I'd consider that story the way its told as a source but I'll take your word for it.

De Cecco is not an unknown brand fighting against some massive conspiracy. They've been in the US for a long time ... I really don't think it supports your theory. De Cecco has been one of the brands I buy often for, I honestly don't even know how long, seems like forever.

>> a diameter between 0.11 and 0.27 inches

> Why shouldn’t you be able to sell macaroni if your machinery isn’t precise enough to meet those tolerances every time?

The level of precision needed to consistently meet those tolerances is less than the precision of the extruders in a Play-Doh Fun Factory that you might find in a typical preschool.

To quote a manager when I was starting out: "Don't bring me problems -- bring me problems and solutions".

Maybe the book delves into that, but I saw nothing of that in the article.

Probably one of the biggest impediments to addressing this is that Congress is horribly broken, (not by accident). I'd go further there but it's inherently political and I don't want to risk the wrath of @dang.

Being ruled by law is a good thing, and many regulations are written in blood. We need to find ways to hold on to the "good parts" and trim away the rest. My techie take would be that using AI to analyze/summarize the legal code, case history of the application of same, and game theory to evaluate the efficacy and "justness" of the codes. Easy peasy, right?

"The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state".

That's thousands of years old wisdom. The government should serve the people, not the other way around.

You know there's a problem when even your lawyers friend complain about the state of things.

> In the 1930s, the Empire State Building—the tallest in the world at the time—took a little more than 13 months to build.

It cost at least 5 lives from easily preventable accidents and is filled with asbestos (which likely killed many many more from lung cancer). is this the state people want to return to?

>is this the state people want to return to?

Sadly, some of them do. Some of them are even in government and their whole aim is to unravel all the standards and protections we've built up for good reason.

> cost at least 5 lives from easily preventable accidents and is filled with asbestos (which likely killed many many more from lung cancer). is this the state people want to return to?

There is a lot of middle ground between these extremes [1].

Manhattan’s current zoning rules, for example, almost require luxury housing only.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/05/19/upshot/forty-...

There is a difference between laws and regulations. Law determine what is legal. Regulations dictate HOW to act/behave to be within the government's interpretation of the law. Courts determine whether the government's interpretation of the law is fair or not to those who bring suit. Every court decision is, to a certain extent, also a regulation.
I remember when the Trump team was claiming that they wanted to simplify the tax code. They held up a postcard and said that you'd file your taxes on this.

Then they passed the tax bill. My taxes went up, Trump's went down, and everyone forgot about the postcard. Go figure.

What actually happened is that Form 1040 got sliced into multiple pages. Going from 2017 to 2018, the 1040 went from 79 lines [1] to 23 lines [2]. The remaining 50 or so lines? Moved to Schedules 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. So if your return had any amount of complexity, you probably needed more pages that year.

Today's Form 1040 [3] is somewhere in the middle. The form itself has 38 lines, and the numbered schedules have been consolidated from 6 to 3.

[1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/f1040--2017.pdf

[2] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/f1040--2018.pdf

[3] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/f1040--2023.pdf

Your federal taxes went down but your state charges you a lot and the feds aren't going to let that mean they get less.

You should probably elect lower tax candidates to your state office so you can deduct more of your state taxes.

He also quipped that the officials would have “multiplied at the same rate had there been no actual seamen at all.”

Was that an artificial insemination joke?