Indeed, if these are actually “hot spots” for cancer justifying the scary coloration and risk factor #’s, it shouldn’t be beyond the investigative skills of Propublica to assess the epidemiological data, where surely these locations also stick out like sore thumbs?
> estimate something that you can absolutely just DIRECTLY measure.
Sure, you can track people over 70 years, follow up to see if they die from cancer, and then record the result. But then, everyone affected is already dead.
We already know how certain chemicals affect people, and because of that, we can protect people before they die of environmental issues. That's the point of the EPA. Not simply to measure problems after they happen.
These models certainly do not assume the only measurable effects will occur after 70 years. Most of these facilities have been emitting at or above their current levels for decades. If there’s no measurable effect on population health, that suggests the EPA is overestimating risk.
In any event, I’m surprised/not-surprised that PP doesn’t take a pass at explaining why they’re not even looking at actual disease data.
I think the scary thing is that we can measure these health outcomes and probably connect to a source like a chemical plant but we still don't understand what exactly is causing the cancer.
For example there are more than 10.000 VOCs in the air. Some are harmless but many are not. It's extremely difficult to measure them and categorize them and nearly impossible to do so in real time.
So even though the EPA measures air quality continuously, they probably only cover a fraction of the harmful substances in the air.
I literally don't know anybody else who would read this feature and also has Signal. ProPublica said they added a signal contact number just for this feature -- I couldn't seem to find that number in Signal. I was wondering if it my issue or theirs. I figured reporting it here on the site might be useful. Apparently I was wrong.
Just this very day... Google added... AI, and the signal lights on streets still do not work, and an Android phone still cannot sort links in reverse chronicle order.
I am going on faith that other people will see that this was NOT an advance.
I grew up not far from Port Arthur TX. I am not surprised it is listed as a pollution hot spot. When I was there the beaches were always covered in oil and the air was thick with whatever the refineries released at night. I only knew it smelled awful and I later developed asthma. If it wasn’t for the refineries, there would be no jobs and no reason for my parents to have moved there. I mostly fault the bean counters. I know they can operate safely. They are just saving a few pennies.
Of the two of these I inspected so far (the Parrish, Florida powerplant[0] and the Holdingford, Minnesota trailer manufacturer[1]) they both seem to be located way out in the boonies with only a low double-digit amount of either residential or farming structures observed around them once I brought up the locations in satellite view. I don't like how they are intentionally obscuring the population density and scale of these structures with the greyscale mapping they're using; on both of the ones I looked at the big scary red blob didn't even reach out of the property of the targeted industries once you match the map scales up.
How did you conclude they were intentionally obscuring population density? How did you conclude population density, for that matter? Is it your opinion that we shouldn't be concerned about industrial polluters giving cancer to people because those people live in low population-density areas or because they report their cancer at the industrial sites where they work?
Having spent the last four-ish years living in "the boonies", I am generally unimpressed by how people from urban areas talk and think about rural areas and the people that live here. City folks don't know what's happening out here, and it's often because they don't care to, and it shows.
Parrish was definitely “the boonies” till probably 2021 when all the covid refugees started moving in. Now it’s probably one of the top areas where new master planned communities are sprouting up in west central fl. My wife and are considering building down there in a new one that has just started development.
As luck (and hard work) would have it, Propublica just give you a better idea of where _not_ to build..
Increase the distance safety margin by an arbitrary 1000%, take into account the dominant wind direction, and, fingers crossed, you'll find a safe place. Godspeed.
I am not that worried about it. One article and one power plant that is miles away (and already factored in to our decision) is not going to change my mind. It’s Florida—I am more likely to get melanoma from the sun, attacked by wildlife/sealife, leprosy from an armadillo, or killed in a car accident than anything that plant is going to do to me.
I used to live near Longview TX, and it was fairly well known that people living near Eastman Chemical got cancer at higher rates. The issue is TX politicians just don't care. Which if you think if it, is really sadistic. To have a big company that is factually poisoning your population, but no one does anything about it.
One of the things I took away from the "Tom's River" book was that the difference between a cancer cluster that everyone knows exists, and one that doesn't exist at all, may be just one case. It is hard to gauge such things from folk wisdom.
A substantial faction of Texas tout their state as “pro-business” and “anti-regulation.” Half the time it’s just letting the companies do whatever damage they please that other states wouldn’t allow happen to their residents. It’s easy to see why it persists when attempting to tackle it would be hounded by people and politicians making it seem like you’re being anti-business.
Nobody would allow it if they had the power. Nobody (individually) has the power, and collective "bargaining" with large corporations via elected officials that don't make it their platform is just hopeless.
Nobody has to even be malicious. There are millions of problems every day, so you can get caught up in the "fix this first" cycles.
Just a reminder that ProPublica is primarily by donations from individuals[1]. They do run ads and I wish they didn't, but for now at least, they receive more money from donations and I'd like to keep it that way. With any organization that strives to do good it's important to align the funding incentives with the mission. I think ProPublica is the closest investigative journalist organization to doing that.
This map is one of a bunch of information presentation tools[2] which are extremely useful. In particular, I use their Nonprofit Explorer[3] all the time.
I just watched Dark Waters on Netflix last night. Really good movie about DuPont and teflon. In the movie, people near the plant suffer disproportionally.
In the movie it's downplayed how much harm actually occurred. C8 poisoning still affects huge amount of the Mid Ohio Valley to this very day, and despite what the map says the area from Marietta to Ravenswood along the river still has a disproportionately high number of non-natural illnesses. As far as I know they were still doing active testing for blood C8 levels in 2008. My family members who worked at the Washington Works plant have had persisting health issues ranging from neurodegenerative diseases to bone marrow collapse that wouldn't show up on the ProPublica map because they aren't strictly cancers.
I'm surprised that Denver's Elyria-Swansea and Globeville neighborhoods were not highlighted as hotspots. I lived in Denver for many years, and these neighborhoods were commonly known to locals as some of the most polluted zip codes in the US.
'The data in this map covers emissions from 2014 to 2018, and was last updated in August 2023 to update corrected Form R submissions. We are no longer making updates.'
Is there a way to get updates outside of this website?
46 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 94.3 ms ] threadSure, you can track people over 70 years, follow up to see if they die from cancer, and then record the result. But then, everyone affected is already dead.
We already know how certain chemicals affect people, and because of that, we can protect people before they die of environmental issues. That's the point of the EPA. Not simply to measure problems after they happen.
In any event, I’m surprised/not-surprised that PP doesn’t take a pass at explaining why they’re not even looking at actual disease data.
also would you point out an example of ProPublica being as grossly unscientific as you claim? i'll wait
For example there are more than 10.000 VOCs in the air. Some are harmless but many are not. It's extremely difficult to measure them and categorize them and nearly impossible to do so in real time.
So even though the EPA measures air quality continuously, they probably only cover a fraction of the harmful substances in the air.
https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2022-02/_epaoig_n...
https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/benzene/basics/facts.asp
"General Info and Inquiries · Mailing Address · Email · Phone · Midwest Office. 708-967-5720. Follow"
https://www.propublica.org/contact
Just this very day... Google added... AI, and the signal lights on streets still do not work, and an Android phone still cannot sort links in reverse chronicle order.
I am going on faith that other people will see that this was NOT an advance.
[0]https://maps.app.goo.gl/1JRTy4vHWirMNNuP8 [1]https://maps.app.goo.gl/NE3etStbsEF419ad7
Having spent the last four-ish years living in "the boonies", I am generally unimpressed by how people from urban areas talk and think about rural areas and the people that live here. City folks don't know what's happening out here, and it's often because they don't care to, and it shows.
As luck (and hard work) would have it, Propublica just give you a better idea of where _not_ to build..
Increase the distance safety margin by an arbitrary 1000%, take into account the dominant wind direction, and, fingers crossed, you'll find a safe place. Godspeed.
C’est la vie.
Enjoy Florida, et la belle vie!
Almost like they are bribed by Eastman.
Nobody has to even be malicious. There are millions of problems every day, so you can get caught up in the "fix this first" cycles.
This map is one of a bunch of information presentation tools[2] which are extremely useful. In particular, I use their Nonprofit Explorer[3] all the time.
[1] https://www.propublica.org/donate/
[2] https://www.propublica.org/newsapps/
[3] https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/
Is there a way to get updates outside of this website?