911 service will soon work in the most remote wilderness or even the middle of the ocean or potentially even at the poles. Likely even on a phone with no service plan at all. This will save countless lives.
GPS already works globally thanks to a very similar gift by the US government. Phones automatically send it to 911 when you call. So it's already paired. Starlink will additionally have some idea of a phone's location just due to how the phased arrays work, but not nearly as precise as GPS.
It's quite a stretch to call it a gift from the US government. The original GPS was opened up with horrible accuracy. Every superpower now operates their own positioning constellations free of charge. Thanks US, EU, Russia, India and China
>"The original GPS opened up with horrible accuracy"
When GPS launched more than thirty years ago, the accuracy for civilians was within 330 feet, made universally accessible at no additional cost to everyone in the world at a cost of 12 billion dollars. That's a pretty darn good gift if I've ever seen one. Also India does not have a global satellite navigation system, only a regional one.
Not only that, the US government stopped limiting accuracy in 2000. Long before any alternative was available publicly or globally. It's questionable whether other systems would have been made free if GPS hadn't set the example. It was absolutely a gift to the world and it's incredible the backflips people will turn to try to minimize it.
This is already done. "When the cellular phone detects that the user is placing an emergency call, it begins to transmit its location to a secure server, from which the PSAP can retrieve it. Cellphone manufacturers may program the phone to enable GPS function automatically (in case it has been turned off) when the user places an emergency call." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_911
Yeah, there are countless people dying in the middle of the ocean or at the poles...
There is also this little gem in his message "This applies worldwide, subject to approval by country governments.". In Elon's words, it means it's never happening.
There are lots of places in the US that don't have cellular service. There are lots of people who go hiking without PLB or satellite messenger cause they are expensive. They take their phones.
A month ago, a couple was found dead in life raft off Nova Scotia after abandoning their sailboat. No one knows what happened because they didn't activate their EPIRB. If it was quick evacuation, they could have ended up in life raft with just phones.
and now the phone will be able to physically communicate with satellites literally anywhere on the surface of the Earth. A huge improvement!
And while free emergency service has been the convention for terrestrial cell towers, SpaceX was under no obligation to extend the practice to satellite service. Existing satphone providers certainly did not.
It certainly is better to know that you can not actually rely on Starlink for emergency services access in the long-term vs discovering it the moment you actually need it.
You’re missing the point. Musk has a track record of offering services to remove competitors and then reneging on that once it’s no longer necessary. (Similar to the hyperloop: the whole purpose was to divert funding from public transit programs not produce anything actually useful)
Adopting a “free” starlink service that later becomes $$$ only once there’s no alternative is overtly worse than the current state.
The "free" Starlink service is calling 911. It is expected that mobile provider offers 911 service to everyone.
Starlink, in partnership with T-Mobile and others, will be offering service with messages and voice but no data. I don't think pricing has been announced, or if going to be add-on or free extra. My guess is that it will be cheap cause it isn't much demand, the emergency is the important part.
Also, there are multiple companies working on LTE from satellites. They are at disadvantage cause can't piggyback on lots of low satellite. But might be able to work with fewer, higher satellite. They might be able to partner with other providers.
> The "free" Starlink service is calling 911. It is expected that mobile provider offers 911 service to everyone
What?
No one is saying "they'll charge for 911" they're saying - the satellite connection is what costs money. The concern is that they're offering that connection for free now, because it means to be competitive, every other service must provide that service for free. How are they going to do that when the service costs money? They cannot - so spacex leverages its income from other industries (and government subsidies) to fund a service below operating costs until the competitors are gone. At that point they can introduce pricing, and there is no alternative or competition, so they can charge much more than the actual cost.
This is not a new or novel concept, and is a historically common anticompetitive practice.
Given Musk's prior behavior, it is sensible to assume any claims or promises are at best misleading, and it is not unreasonable to assume intentional malice.
"The world" didn't "rely" on SpaceX to build this. SpaceX built this service on their own initiative and with their own funding and now they're giving away its most life critical function for free (unlike incumbent satphone companies who have always charged for 911 service). Plenty of competitors are working to replicate Starlink, including private companies, governments, and militaries. SpaceX is even launching some of the satellites for them. It's hardly SpaceX's fault that everyone else is so far behind.
On Ukraine, SpaceX asked the US DoD to fund the substantial costs which is eminently reasonable given the criticality of Starlink to the war effort and the billions upon billions in contracts other US defense contractors were getting to support the war. SpaceX never shut off Ukraine's service despite misinformation to the contrary.
As for Elon, he canceled one customer's $100k car order 8 years ago and because of that you believe he would leave people to die when they need emergency help?
Once something "free" is offered, it often pushes out paid or costly options. And it's not uncommon that this leads to a severe decline in quality. We've seen it in print media, social networks, streaming services, and many other industries. For example, we no longer have popular high-quality almanacs, and high-quality magazines at a premium price are nearly extinct. We now have a lot of "free" garbage online instead. Similarly, social networks, which are free to use, have upset the social fabric and displaced genuine deep relationships which cost money and effort to maintain. And what percentage of movies these days release on high-bitrate media? Most of us don't have access to film without blocky compression.
It's pretty clear Elon didn't think this through. There are very large risks (on the scale of his AI fears). If this service becomes widespread, regional and national governments may no longer mandate that certain areas are provided cell services for by telecoms. Or if there are faults in that system, they may delay repairs. This is all well and good while SpaceX continues to operate, but what if it goes bankrupt and the world has moved on? How many will die?
Or what if Elon has another tech bro moment and decides some region doesn't deserve this service? We know he has sometimes acted very unjustly to others, including making a decision in the Ukrainian conflict to not provide service[0]. He may be right or wrong on that decision, I won't judge. But it is clear he is inserting himself into situations he has no expertise in, and is known for casting harsh rushed judgements[1].
I think he should do it — it's quite heroic what he wants to do, but he needs to think about the consequences. Maybe the calls should always be available, but there should be a fee associated with them later, so that a cheaper local option remains relevant? I don't have the answers but I think 15 minutes of thinking surfaces so many concerns that it really does demand an impact study rather than one man making a tweet/xit.
And we haven't even spoken about potential misuse.
> Once something "free" is offered, it often pushes out paid or costly options
You could say the exact same thing about the long-standing policy of providing free 911 service via terrestrial cell towers. And it still wouldn't make any sense because the revenue potential of 911 service is absolutely miniscule compared to the total size of the telecom market. Giving away 911 service isn't pushing anyone out of the telecom business. Despite being life critical, 911 service is incidental to a good overall telecom service and it makes perfect sense to make it free.
> This is all well and good while SpaceX continues to operate, but what if it goes bankrupt and the world has moved on?
There is zero chance that the Starlink network would be abandoned and stop working if SpaceX went bankrupt. Look up Iridium and Globalstar to see what would actually happen.
> Or what if Elon has another tech bro moment and decides some region doesn't deserve this service anymore?
Again, people are delusional to think that he would leave people to die on a whim. I get that he acts rashly and there's a real billionare=evil meme floating around out there right now, not to mention the politics stuff, but nothing he has ever done is even remotely close to the behavior people are postulating here.
Starlink Leo satellites are not the same as geosynchronous satellites. geosync satellites are very high up and will more or less stay there indefinitely. Starlink sats will decay from their orbit and burn up in the atmosphere after about 5 years. which means if you aren't constantly launching new sats all the time, the network will quickly degrade and completely fail within five years. in other words, there is way more than a zero percent chance that starlink is not a financially viable product long term.
> Giving away 911 service isn't pushing anyone out of the telecom business.
Irrelevant. My claim was about a free service replacing a paid one. 911 service in the US is paid for by states and local governments, and telecoms must provide it to operate. Having a free option would create a disincentive to keep the status quo, and the paid service may be less upkept.
> There is zero chance that the Starlink network would be abandoned and stop working if SpaceX went bankrupt
Seems exceptionally naive. “Zero chance” alone is naive, there is substantial probability. But even if the satellites were kept in orbit by another owner, why would they continue to provide a free service at a cost? Even that question may be irrelevant, because non-profitable efforts would be ended by most restructurings.
> Again, people are delusional to think that he would leave people to die on a whim
Tesla’s exaggerated FSD claims are directly responsible for people’s deaths, including the Walter Huang case, where this negligence was established as a cause by plaintiff’s lawyers.
You seem confused. SpaceX will provide the same free access to the same government 911 (or other local emergency system) that terrestrial carriers do. SpaceX incurs practically no incremental cost here. Starlink can't replace cell towers for normal phone coverage, so this is not replacing anything other than maybe Apple's far inferior SOS feature.
The Walter Huang case didn't "establish" anything because it didn't go to trial. It's a pretty wild stretch to blame his death on Musk. And even if one believed that they should still be able to see how making misleading statements that unintentionally contribute to one person's accident would not be remotely comparable to intentionally ignoring thousands upon thousands of people desperately calling for urgently needed help.
Apple is paying a pretty penny to GlobalStar for a similar service. Though the iPhone version (which works now in the iPhone 14 and 15, though is also country-dependent) is a very low bandwidth text-based option that can take a minute or more to send and require special pointing at satellites. Starlink is claiming to be able to deliver a limited number of voice streams direct to devices, even for non-emergency.. how the delivery of that goes in actual practice remains to be seen.
It totally makes sense as effectively a (fairly expensive) marketing expense to sell iPhones. But I have wondered how much of that limited time freebie is just legalese protection for the event they discontinue the service or something, versus some possible future where they actually tried to charge for it in some way. That seems like a PR nightmare.
The Starlink service is quite different that GlobalStar or Iridium. It is actual LTE with unmodified phones.
The new Starlink V2 satellites have direct-to-cell functionality with big antennas to pick up mobile phones. They have tested it, but rolling it out depends on getting enough V2 satellites launched. And that may depend on Starship working.
Personal Locator Beacons (PLBs) service is already free and doesn’t require relying on a shady company…. You cannot transmit a message, but the devices are compact, lightweight, and rugged. I always carry one hiking, boating, etc.
PLB is a dead market considering every iPhone does the same already. Sure it will survive, but will become super niche. Even rugged dumbphone will be cheaper and better.
Not at all- an iPhone isn’t even close to replacing a PLB or EPIRB. A PLB is much more rugged, powerful at transmitting, and reliable. It is engineered to transmit for very long periods of time in extreme environments- repeatedly immersed at sea in a storm, in extreme cold at high altitude, etc. It can auto activate with immersion or be activated easily by freezing cold hands that can’t grip. It floats and survives long falls.
The iphone has to be held in a certain orientation, with an unobstructed view of the sky for a long time to get a signal out and it uses a lot of battery in the attempt. It also does not have global coverage, or connect to nearly as many satellites as a PLB can.
As a person that does mountaineering and offshore sailing there is absolutely no way I’d carry an iPhone in place of a PLB (although I do carry both). The chances of successfully calling for help on an iphone in the conditions you’d need to - like swimming at sea after your vessel sinks are slim. The PLB stays inside my self inflating life jacket always ready.
Completely agreed. PLBs are on a whole other level of reliability. Not just physically, the signal itself is significantly more reliable.
They have three different ways of being located (digital GPS coordinates, measuring Doppler shift from satellites passing overhead, and radio direction finding from local SAR search planes), which practically guarantees that if you activate a PLB somebody will come.
Beyond that, the technology powering PLBs is also required for emergency beacons on aircraft and boats. It's not going away anytime soon. In fact, the technology is being upgraded right now to add return-link capability, plus an entire new satellite constellation (MEOSAR).
Is the market of people like you,
post iPhone and starlink 911 access, really that big? The addressable market for PLBs just shrank, noticably, because while yes, of course I'd rather a properly designed PLB, if the device I've already got will work, it's an extra hassle and expense that I don't see enough people going for to think that they'll survive in the PLB product companies will continue to exist in their current incarnation. They'll adapt, hopefully, for their employees, before having to close down shop.
The addressable market for PLBs is exactly the same size as it was. Urbanites were never in it.
Hunters, scientists, geologists, forestry workers, telco and power transmission workers, remote construction crew, farmers, ... People who still use dumbphones because smartphones go flat too quickly.
Not people with desk jobs.
I'm sure you think the market for two-way radios has long collapsed, too.
Even if these companies never sold another PLB, they'd be just fine. They make most of their money selling ELTs for aviation and EPIRBs for marine vessels. (It's all the same tech, just different form factors.)
Also, the people who paid the premium for a PLB over a Spot/InReach are likely to pay the premium for a PLB over an iPhone too. The fact that thes are dedicated, purpose-built devices that are guarenteed to always work, anywhere, in even the worst conditions is the entire selling point - and that hasn't changed.
Hey, can I ask what a good brand is these days? Just looking for one for occasional use while backpacking/kayaking/biking/etc., often in places with no cell signal.
The OceanSignal RescueME PLB1 is a good unit and affordable for a PLB. Your comment sounds like you might be looking for a satellite communicator like a SPOT or inReach, which are a different thing.
The PLB is much more reliable and redundant, and the signal directly reaches official rescue authorities much quicker- but it is a rescue beacon only, with no 'tracking' or messaging abilities.
A communicator can send your location and status- and newer more expensive ones can even do two way texting, and can call for help, but it is not as much of a serious emergency rescue device.
In the USA boats over 55 feet are required by law to carry a PLB or EPIRB (e.g. a large PLB that is attached to the boat rather than a person) that is registered with NOAA with the vessel details.
I'm a 'belt and suspenders' type person and on very remote wilderness or sailing trips I carry a PLB, a SPOT tracker (a communicator brand), and an iPhone in a rugged waterproof case with a waterproof wireless backup battery and solar charger.
There is no technical issue; Starlink works great in international waters today. As for who will answer your call, that's an interesting question. What do existing satphones do if you call 911 in international waters? As a US citizen I would hope to be connected to the Coast Guard.
I'm guessing the phone reaching satellite operates similarly to a phone reaching cell networks. It attaches GPS coordinates and then the 911 system does the rest.
Just hope if I'm in this situation I'm not actually in the water and not having to fight my screen while it's getting wet. And that I kept my battery charged.
What if you make call from north korean eez? Or some contested border? Or even international waters - there is cost attached to it (monitoring, translation, coordination, etc) - by buying PLB you are supporting the operation around it.
Wonder if that means they'll be pulled into court cases world wide for triangulation data of specific mobile devices?
Because with the capability to provide emergency service globally, it sure sounds like they now have the capability to track individual phones globally.
I often find the man strange, but this time, really gotta applaud Musk for a decision like this. Kudos.
How will it work with regular phones? Do you need a Starlink receiver (wifi calling?) or a certain type of phone (iPhone with the satellite modem?) or are the Starlink sats capable of speaking regular 4G/5G with any phone?
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[ 4.5 ms ] story [ 138 ms ] threadWhen GPS launched more than thirty years ago, the accuracy for civilians was within 330 feet, made universally accessible at no additional cost to everyone in the world at a cost of 12 billion dollars. That's a pretty darn good gift if I've ever seen one. Also India does not have a global satellite navigation system, only a regional one.
There is also this little gem in his message "This applies worldwide, subject to approval by country governments.". In Elon's words, it means it's never happening.
A month ago, a couple was found dead in life raft off Nova Scotia after abandoning their sailboat. No one knows what happened because they didn't activate their EPIRB. If it was quick evacuation, they could have ended up in life raft with just phones.
And while free emergency service has been the convention for terrestrial cell towers, SpaceX was under no obligation to extend the practice to satellite service. Existing satphone providers certainly did not.
Elon has a history of cancelling orders for Teslas if people criticise him.
I feel like Starlink isn't the sort of company the world should rely on for a safety critical service, free or not.
Adopting a “free” starlink service that later becomes $$$ only once there’s no alternative is overtly worse than the current state.
Starlink, in partnership with T-Mobile and others, will be offering service with messages and voice but no data. I don't think pricing has been announced, or if going to be add-on or free extra. My guess is that it will be cheap cause it isn't much demand, the emergency is the important part.
Also, there are multiple companies working on LTE from satellites. They are at disadvantage cause can't piggyback on lots of low satellite. But might be able to work with fewer, higher satellite. They might be able to partner with other providers.
What?
No one is saying "they'll charge for 911" they're saying - the satellite connection is what costs money. The concern is that they're offering that connection for free now, because it means to be competitive, every other service must provide that service for free. How are they going to do that when the service costs money? They cannot - so spacex leverages its income from other industries (and government subsidies) to fund a service below operating costs until the competitors are gone. At that point they can introduce pricing, and there is no alternative or competition, so they can charge much more than the actual cost.
This is not a new or novel concept, and is a historically common anticompetitive practice.
Given Musk's prior behavior, it is sensible to assume any claims or promises are at best misleading, and it is not unreasonable to assume intentional malice.
On Ukraine, SpaceX asked the US DoD to fund the substantial costs which is eminently reasonable given the criticality of Starlink to the war effort and the billions upon billions in contracts other US defense contractors were getting to support the war. SpaceX never shut off Ukraine's service despite misinformation to the contrary.
As for Elon, he canceled one customer's $100k car order 8 years ago and because of that you believe he would leave people to die when they need emergency help?
It's pretty clear Elon didn't think this through. There are very large risks (on the scale of his AI fears). If this service becomes widespread, regional and national governments may no longer mandate that certain areas are provided cell services for by telecoms. Or if there are faults in that system, they may delay repairs. This is all well and good while SpaceX continues to operate, but what if it goes bankrupt and the world has moved on? How many will die?
Or what if Elon has another tech bro moment and decides some region doesn't deserve this service? We know he has sometimes acted very unjustly to others, including making a decision in the Ukrainian conflict to not provide service[0]. He may be right or wrong on that decision, I won't judge. But it is clear he is inserting himself into situations he has no expertise in, and is known for casting harsh rushed judgements[1].
I think he should do it — it's quite heroic what he wants to do, but he needs to think about the consequences. Maybe the calls should always be available, but there should be a fee associated with them later, so that a cheaper local option remains relevant? I don't have the answers but I think 15 minutes of thinking surfaces so many concerns that it really does demand an impact study rather than one man making a tweet/xit.
And we haven't even spoken about potential misuse.
[0] https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/09/14/musk-internet-access-... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/15/elon-musk...
You could say the exact same thing about the long-standing policy of providing free 911 service via terrestrial cell towers. And it still wouldn't make any sense because the revenue potential of 911 service is absolutely miniscule compared to the total size of the telecom market. Giving away 911 service isn't pushing anyone out of the telecom business. Despite being life critical, 911 service is incidental to a good overall telecom service and it makes perfect sense to make it free.
> This is all well and good while SpaceX continues to operate, but what if it goes bankrupt and the world has moved on?
There is zero chance that the Starlink network would be abandoned and stop working if SpaceX went bankrupt. Look up Iridium and Globalstar to see what would actually happen.
> Or what if Elon has another tech bro moment and decides some region doesn't deserve this service anymore?
Again, people are delusional to think that he would leave people to die on a whim. I get that he acts rashly and there's a real billionare=evil meme floating around out there right now, not to mention the politics stuff, but nothing he has ever done is even remotely close to the behavior people are postulating here.
Irrelevant. My claim was about a free service replacing a paid one. 911 service in the US is paid for by states and local governments, and telecoms must provide it to operate. Having a free option would create a disincentive to keep the status quo, and the paid service may be less upkept.
> There is zero chance that the Starlink network would be abandoned and stop working if SpaceX went bankrupt
Seems exceptionally naive. “Zero chance” alone is naive, there is substantial probability. But even if the satellites were kept in orbit by another owner, why would they continue to provide a free service at a cost? Even that question may be irrelevant, because non-profitable efforts would be ended by most restructurings.
> Again, people are delusional to think that he would leave people to die on a whim
Tesla’s exaggerated FSD claims are directly responsible for people’s deaths, including the Walter Huang case, where this negligence was established as a cause by plaintiff’s lawyers.
You should double-check your arguments.
The Walter Huang case didn't "establish" anything because it didn't go to trial. It's a pretty wild stretch to blame his death on Musk. And even if one believed that they should still be able to see how making misleading statements that unintentionally contribute to one person's accident would not be remotely comparable to intentionally ignoring thousands upon thousands of people desperately calling for urgently needed help.
Apple have basically said its free with any supporting iPhone for "the first 2 years" and then extended it a year so far (https://www.apple.com/au/newsroom/2023/11/apple-extends-emer...)
It totally makes sense as effectively a (fairly expensive) marketing expense to sell iPhones. But I have wondered how much of that limited time freebie is just legalese protection for the event they discontinue the service or something, versus some possible future where they actually tried to charge for it in some way. That seems like a PR nightmare.
I'm curious to see how that goes long term.
The cost seems to have been in the $200-$500m range, source: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/11/emergency-sos-via-sat...
The new Starlink V2 satellites have direct-to-cell functionality with big antennas to pick up mobile phones. They have tested it, but rolling it out depends on getting enough V2 satellites launched. And that may depend on Starship working.
The iphone has to be held in a certain orientation, with an unobstructed view of the sky for a long time to get a signal out and it uses a lot of battery in the attempt. It also does not have global coverage, or connect to nearly as many satellites as a PLB can.
As a person that does mountaineering and offshore sailing there is absolutely no way I’d carry an iPhone in place of a PLB (although I do carry both). The chances of successfully calling for help on an iphone in the conditions you’d need to - like swimming at sea after your vessel sinks are slim. The PLB stays inside my self inflating life jacket always ready.
They have three different ways of being located (digital GPS coordinates, measuring Doppler shift from satellites passing overhead, and radio direction finding from local SAR search planes), which practically guarantees that if you activate a PLB somebody will come.
Beyond that, the technology powering PLBs is also required for emergency beacons on aircraft and boats. It's not going away anytime soon. In fact, the technology is being upgraded right now to add return-link capability, plus an entire new satellite constellation (MEOSAR).
We are approaching when sats can get live view of any place, any weather, any time of day.
Hunters, scientists, geologists, forestry workers, telco and power transmission workers, remote construction crew, farmers, ... People who still use dumbphones because smartphones go flat too quickly.
Not people with desk jobs.
I'm sure you think the market for two-way radios has long collapsed, too.
Also, the people who paid the premium for a PLB over a Spot/InReach are likely to pay the premium for a PLB over an iPhone too. The fact that thes are dedicated, purpose-built devices that are guarenteed to always work, anywhere, in even the worst conditions is the entire selling point - and that hasn't changed.
Just got myself an ACR ResqLink, for what it's worth. Brand availability depends on country of purchase and expected use.
A communicator can send your location and status- and newer more expensive ones can even do two way texting, and can call for help, but it is not as much of a serious emergency rescue device.
In the USA boats over 55 feet are required by law to carry a PLB or EPIRB (e.g. a large PLB that is attached to the boat rather than a person) that is registered with NOAA with the vessel details.
I'm a 'belt and suspenders' type person and on very remote wilderness or sailing trips I carry a PLB, a SPOT tracker (a communicator brand), and an iPhone in a rugged waterproof case with a waterproof wireless backup battery and solar charger.
You heard it here
Seriously tho, how it's going to work on international waters if at all?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_911
I'm guessing the phone reaching satellite operates similarly to a phone reaching cell networks. It attaches GPS coordinates and then the 911 system does the rest.
Just hope if I'm in this situation I'm not actually in the water and not having to fight my screen while it's getting wet. And that I kept my battery charged.
That’s why I’m asking. Technical issues are easy.
What if you make call from north korean eez? Or some contested border? Or even international waters - there is cost attached to it (monitoring, translation, coordination, etc) - by buying PLB you are supporting the operation around it.
Because with the capability to provide emergency service globally, it sure sounds like they now have the capability to track individual phones globally.
How will it work with regular phones? Do you need a Starlink receiver (wifi calling?) or a certain type of phone (iPhone with the satellite modem?) or are the Starlink sats capable of speaking regular 4G/5G with any phone?