Ask HN: Is it wrong not wanting career progression beyond senior?

62 points by cloudedcordial ↗ HN
I pursued computer science because of the career prospect, the fact that the salary is not capped by regulators and I had the grades to get accepted in a program. I am not a senior developer, but am never out of work for more than 2 months in my entire 15+ years career with the up and down in tech. I live comfortably in a low-cost-of-living area. I am not looking for FIRE. I switched roles every few years so that I could learn new tech stacks and get perspective from different teams.

The increased responsibilities of senior+roles are daunting. I once had the energy in my younger days to jump into the challenges, but ended up jaded after not getting the results. People have been just looking out for themselves. (Not wrong!)

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nothing wrong, you do you and stick to what makes you happy :)
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No, there's nothing intrinsically wrong about not progressing past senior. Most companies see that as a terminal level because staff+ is such a shift in skillset.

It's fascinating to me that you've not attained the senior level after a 15+ year career, though. That's a lot of time to spend as a mid-level engineer. Out of curiosity, why aren't you a senior engineer?

OP here. I started out in a very niche small local software industry thinking they didn't do evil like the big corps did. The old guys who started the company were in great control. They just wanted to do the same stuff when they were new college grads (just minus the punch cards). Business growth was dead. Salary didn't even keep up with the inflation.

Then I took a QA position in a big corp after spending my 20s not saving any money. Even this manual/automated testing role qualified me for a 50% pay increase from the old job without salary negotiation. No dev shop took me after seeing I was clueless in recent tech stacks. After a few years, I was tired of the manual testing part and looked for a new job.

Then I had automation roles in a few local companies with increasing DevOps components. The companies are progressively less rigid so they are good in letting us exploring and using new tech stacks.

My belief in not doing "evil" in my 20s has hurt me financially and career-wise in the long term. I didn't read industry news before I turned 30. The QA job, even if the company had some controversies, was a savior to stop beating a dead horse.

You are not wrong. Career isn't everything. A job is there to earn money first, fun second. Perpetual promotions aren't in that list at all.
From company pov, yes. Because they want people who are driven to get to next stage.

From individual pov, no. Because everyone a different priorities in life.

Goal is to find the company where their expectation meets your priorities.

Even for the company, having some team members that you know are happy to just sit where they are and get work done is a good thing. If everyone is gunning for promotions, some people are going to be disappointed, and retaining your team is a challenge.
That's pretty much why many places consider senior a terminal position. You're expected to progress from junior to midweight to senior, but after that it's fine to plateau.
Of course, it's not wrong. You do you man!

But if you are looking for general advice, I think it's important to want career progression. Generally speaking, for most people, bills go up as they age (kids, health, yada-yada). Unless you are sitting on inheritance money, you'll want to have a bigger pay-check to meet life's challenges.

> Generally speaking, for most people, bills go up as they age (kids, health, yada-yada).

To a point yes. There was a time when you could realistically pay off your mortgage before you were fifty, and for some people maybe this is still the case. College expenses are another consideration, just depends on how much you as a parent are going to shoulder those costs compared to grants/military/self earn.

For myself, costs have lowered and I'm able to donate more money to charity. So if you can swing a bigger paycheck and you're motivated help others I think it's worth doing so.

I'm in the same boat. I want to have a stake in what I'm working, on but the politics/meetings seem overwhelming. I want to do interesting work without the pressure of unrealistic management expectations hanging over my head
In uk you’re automatically senior after roughly 3 years.
You might consider hiring yourself out as a contractor. This is especially interesting if you're specialized in some vertical where you can bring consultancy skills to the table. Be the guy who's brought in when there's a problem, replace some proverbial screw, and then charge a week's salary for it. Because nobody else knew exactly which screw to replace.

Also, this path allows you to delegate work to other contractors that you have vetted. After all, your clients care about the results, not who does the actual job.

The thing I can't figure out is how to get a good pipeline of screws that need replacing. All of my previous roles have been full-time salaried staff, and my network is all people like that. Getting a new job of that type is the infamous hurdle of interview panels, which would mean getting the contract takes more time than executing it, if the model I knew applied.

So what model does apply? How do you find enough work efficiently enough with that kind of model? How do you make it sustainable and not run out of the screws that your professional network needs replacing?

Multi-decade permanent contractor here (software developer). Some of it is luck. Some of it depends on the nature of your industry. Also, OP seems to enjoy learning new tech stacks, which makes them attractive to more owners of screws that need replacing, thus increasing their marketability.

It doesn't hurt to occasionally beat the bushes and ask your friends if they need screws replaced, or if they know anybody who does.

Short answer: if you replace screws efficiently and communicate well, you will become the go-to person for replacing screws.

I can't speak for SWE, but in other industries a consultant is brought in with little formal process, as a one-time expense usually approved by somebody they knew already.
There are also brokers/agencies that match contractors with projects/jobs and take a percentage cut. Not ideal but better than nothing if you’re hopeless at networking like me
I've been very explicit with my manager about not wanting to be promoted. There's nothing wrong with saying "this is enough."

Also--your decision is a "for now" decision, not a "forever" decision.

No, you do whatever's best for you.
“Even if you win the rat race, you’re still a rat”.

I’m in this field because I like writing code. So many of my managers tried to push me to advance my career, and generally speaking, there is peer pressure. Don’t give in, if you’re having fun, and make enough for a dignified living, that’s what really matters, not the title.

I am in the same boat. It also feels like the more time I spend at one company in one role the more I gain crazy amounts of context over every aspect of our software, so the less effort it takes to do the same amount of work. I can do many tasks in < 30m that would take anyone else an entire day.

The old guys who have total ownership over some esoteric but irreplaceable part of the code really have it made. Especially if they are working remotely. At that point you almost are like a piece of B2B SaaS software. As long as you do your task tolerably well no one wants to go through the hassle of replacing you.

I keep getting pushed to move into a role that I know I will fail in. I don't get it. I'm happy where I am. Isn't that enough?
The managers above you are judged by them climbing higher. So if they can coach you into a larger role, they'll look better. There's no incentive from the manager side to leave you alone, unless you've made enemies.

As long as you work somewhere with ladder mobility and some churn, the opportunists will rise, and they'll want/need you to rise too.

I was a business developer for 20 years, and it was awesome. Mostly worked 40 hour days, my work load was predictable, I had time to constantly hone my skills, and the best of all, I was doing what I loved.

Five years ago I transitioned by accident to an executive position in cybersecurity, mostly because of my emphasis in secure development, and the recent creation of the area. IT security always has been my second love, but becoming a manager took a lot of the innocence that let me sleep like a baby every night.

I'm not complaining, I had to learn many skills, took very different challenges, and while I barely code anymore, I've both suffered and enjoyed the journey and the personal growth. Nevertheless, some days I still miss having way less responsibilities, and a more peaceful life.

I guess my point is, OP should do what he thinks is better for him while he can get away with it. If OP honestly believes his happiness is staying a senior forever, more power to him. In my case I wanted the challenge before the opportunity passed me.

I know people in their 60s who are senior engineers and are quite content with their career and where they are. I know people in their 30s who are directors. It really depends on the person and where your talents and strengths lie.

The key, though it's admittedly easier said than done, is for you to do you and not worry about what everyone else is doing.

It's fun until your boss makes you hire and lead a team, as well as be product manager, and head of QA (you are the QA), and basically become the director of a department, while still holding the title of "Sr. Engineer". I didn't really ask for any of this, and I'd be happy if I were still just doing "Sr. Engineer" work, but there's a lot on my shoulders. While this sounds shitty, I also have autonomy and job security.
For me, I have two competing worries in deciding what’s next after senior. I like to spend my days in code. I don’t enjoy time spent in meetings like some people seem to. I don’t enjoy managing other people. But I also don’t enjoy poorly planned work, which is problematic as I’m become more opinionated about over time.

Ultimately, I think you should feel ok rejecting a promotion if it forces you into responsibilities you don’t want to have. But you’re probably going to have to accept the consequences of that either way. And you might even be forced into doing some of those responsibilities and not get paid for it.

I work for a smaller company (~100 people) and took ownership of a new greenfield project. I have to wear all hats: hiring people, firing people, managing people (ensuring they're happy, salary adjustments), mentoring, project manager, architect, database design, mentoring other teams as SME (stayed at company too long), meeting with domain experts and creating requirements, UX design (amazing how few seem capable of this), reporting to leadership, meeting with clients, meeting with partners and their dev team, etc.

As you can imagine, some of these responsibilities can drive you mad. The domain experts may expect the product to do X, but they want it to work the same as their product made in the 90's and they start dictating how the UI should function. Since ultimately the success of the product is in my hands, communication ultimately is the most important thing. You have to push back against nonsense and suggest other ways of doing things to people who may be set in their ways (lots of yelling and you need to keep your calm). The endless meetings are another issue. And we don't have a strong company culture to set policies on meetings (like Amazon enforcing meetings must have a small 1 page writeup that everyone has to read). When you're hyper-focused on not wasting time and you join these meetings where half the time is spent talking about weekend plans it can drive you insane.

I got into software development because I enjoyed coding, problem solving, etc. I never signed up for this! I think after this, my next move will be able to step down into a role at another company with less responsibility. This is just too much pressure, especially with two young kids at home.

Was the pay rise commensurate? Or have you been tricked?
In general no, but as you age (and gain years of work experience), being "Senior" for e.g. 15 years will make some hiring people look down on you and try to skip you from someone "that can grow". So in combination with ageism in this industry, it might become a problem in the future, especially if the market doesn't recover and everyone else title inflates to Staff and other fancy titles.
That's when you become a contractor and work with recruiters or go into consulting.
Try contracting, then people won't care about your career progression.
I remember working as a student at a narrow magazine in Copenhagen when I started developing. Many of the old journalists there deliberately choose to continue writing articles and in depth stories as opposed to becoming editor or manager. They loved their craft and it fulfilled their aspirations. I find it admirable to follow your passion.

Additionally, you can continuously learn new skills independent of formal role.

My take might be a controversial take overall. Also note that I'm speaking as an American, in the "land of the free", which actually does apply in this case, I think:

First, if it's OK with you, then it's not wrong. Ignore the things society/advertisers tell you: "You need a boat! You need a nice car! You need a pool!" Do you want a boat? Do you want a nice car? Do you want a pool? You actually have complete control over these optional financial burdens.

OK, so if you've taken a step back and established what you actually want, (and this may change throughout your life), then you can set some goals around how to achieve that. People may judge you (fuck em, imo). You will get asked questions about what you do for a living all the time (probably), and maybe the status of a more prestigious role is important to you. It's all up to you (possibly with some input from loved ones if you value their opinions).

Personally, I'm kind of a minimalist. I have pretty much all the stuff that I want already. I actively fight against acquiring more stuff. If I had enough capital for my family to live off 10% per year, I would quit my job today, and offer my services for free to causes that I actually care about. Come to think of it, I guess that's one of my goals.

One thing I’ve learned is that you can never win status games. Not playing them is good for you ego and your savings rate
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Canada didn't spend that money, yet healthcare is arguably worse than in US.
Only if you have the best insurance. For most other people it sucks badly, software engineers have no idea how it is for most everyone else.
It sucks badly for everyone indiscriminately in Canada.
Once you plateau in your career, after a bit you realize this is it for the duration and you may want to do something radical/crazy - the famous mid-life crisis. After some wild and crazy times you may come back to earth and return to your tech career if you can reconnect to the current tech stack and then plodding on to retirement may seem like a blessing.
Doing what you enjoy and getting paid well for it is the American Dream, or at least one of them. To a lot of people, you probably won the lottery.

I got talked into management twice and I hated it both times.

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Yes it's wrong, you will be harshly judged in the afterlife