They're at work, they're supposed to be suffering from eye strain. Desks facing walls is bad, because you can't shift your view to something distant to rest your eyes without turning around. And I wouldn't even dream of working anywhere that had the mentality "you should be working all the time so it doesn't matter who is looking over your shoulder". If I need to spend 5 minutes talking to the wife on IM, I am going to. If you have a problem with that, you're going to have a hard time hiring good people.
They are professionals--they're supposed to be delivering value for the company. If watching netflix helps them think, let them watch some goddamn netflix. Butts-in-seats is a horrible metric; butts-in-seats-with-code-editor focused even moreso.
I hate people sneaking up behind me while I'm wearing headphones. Plus, some information is confidential even within a company (eg if an employee has an HR concern like feeling upset about another employee).
Meaning they decided to procrastinate instead of working on their product/service.
> we instead chose to purchase solid core doors from Home Depot (~$40 each)
Meaning they instead chose to spend more on something that wasn't designed to be a desk than an actual desk.
From [1]:
Ergonomically, door desks leave a lot to be desired. Keyboards were usually too high. Typing for hours could be uncomfortable. And those angle brackets have sharp edges; accidentally scrapping exposed flesh against those was a mistake that wouldn't be repeated.
> "Meaning they decided to procrastinate instead of working on their product/service."
If they were truly procrastinating, you've got a point. But that's hardly implicit in having spent time and energy on a desk. You can't work productively 24x7. You need downtime.
And those desks, not to minimize the effort they did put into them, don't look like a huge time investment to me.
As to the ergonomics, sure: ideally you want adjustable desk height and some way to get monitors to a comfortable height. But how often have you found those qualities in the sub-$40 desks you'd have them buy?
Protip: Buy office furniture second hand, especially in a downward market. The resale value of office furniture is atrocious. There's plenty of office clearance companies all over the place that will sell you high quality office furniture at low low prices.
And how much of that office furniture that makes it to the clearance companies matches the ergonomic preferences for a computing desk?
To put it bluntly: I don't think I've ever seen an adjustable height desk with a raised stand for a monitor in an office environment. Consumer home-office furniture are lousy with those features. But for most office furniture, you're lucky if they buy a $10 wooden monitor stand or if the desk's adjust more than they need to allow for leveling.
You'd have to haunt the clearance company to actually score a good desk and I still doubt you'd be walking away with one for $40.
Absolutely. It is so easy to poke holes in somebody project, blog post, etc, and takes some contrarian angle. I just don't quite understand why they get voted up to the top.
It might be because people on HN are beacons of productivity who find that these atrocious projects take away from the reams of value that could be created otherwise by working on the product.
This is why they don't read news sites during the work day. Oh wait ...
You're not wrong, but can I admit that I had the same feelings the top commenter had? I'll happily tack on the other admission that those feelings probably had a lot to do with jealousy.
I tried to edit after I made the comment as I read it and thought it was a bit harsh, but sadly couldn't for some reason.
My point was that all of this takes time, and doesn't sound like something a lean and mean startup would do. Buying doors at $40 doesn't sound lean, the time spent instead of working on the product/service doesn't sound lean. There's an opportunity cost that should be factored in and they could've saved a load of money and time by buying the furniture second hand.
Having said all that, it's their business and not mine, and if taking time out to build these desks won't disrupt their schedules or revenue stream then it's up to them if they want to do it. Personally I'd never allow it anywhere I work, but time's much more important (and billable) in my industry so their mileage may vary.
Of course, they now have something tangible with their time that reminds them of the day they built their own desks. If there's value in that then more power to them.
Setting up a good work environment is a worthwhile investment. When you're going to be working somewhere for 8+ hours a day for the foreseeable future, setting it up to maximize your productivity is not procrastination.
Actual desk tops are much more expensive, around 2x the price for an equivalent area: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/categories/departments/wor... I'm not sure about the whole rounding the legs off thing, but if you're going to make 20 desks it's probably not that big a deal, and it does make the legs a lot nicer.
And it's interesting that you're ignoring the Aeron chairs - or are they worth spending money on?
Update: My bad, they're actually Progrid chairs from Costco, not Aerons.
Thanks, the rounded/tapered legs are a surprisingly important addition. Staining them would be wonderful, but that's more time intensive than staining the doors.
We offer Aeron chairs if folks want them. I tried the ProGrid (~10 way adjustable) chairs from Costco Business on a whim (I was stocking up on water cooler, fridge, etc). Costco has a great return policy, so no pressure. I've found them very adjustable and comfortable, so far no complaints or requests for an Aeron here. I should note that we got the mid-back version and it's a bit short for our 6' 6" @chewbranca.
For your next lot of tables, you might want to consider rounding the table tops slightly too. That way they don't dig into your wrists quite so much - plus they'll match the legs.
Typically when I see door desks, the whole point is to be as cheap and as quick as possible (ie take a big, flat door and throw it on some cinder blocks or makeshift legs). In this case, it seems like those in charge of furnishing the office were more hung up on the novelty of a door desk than any possible cost savings, so they spent way too much time doing things like staining and varnishing, etc. when they could've just bought proper looking desks in the first place.
Well done! Wood is an amazing material. Don't not mind these comments about investing your time better. You did it right. A solid and comfortable environment is essential for a good product. Maybe good ideas were created at starbucks, but certainly not good products.
Hah, nice! Ironically, my mom is an interior designer. We're still working on what to hang on the wall, furniture and layout, but I have some ideas of how to make it personal/local, hopefully that'll take it a bit out of the Starbucks genre.
There's a team camaraderie benefit to building desks together, for sure, but if you just wanted desks you could get them on Craigslist for cheap. We got 3 extremely high quality desks for $100 total. (List price was $400 each).
I'm not sure if I'd be all that happy hacking away on a door desk. It's too rectangular and even with a good ergonomic chair I find my elbows aren't supported with my keyboard. I've worked on desks of similar size and shape and they just don't cut it.
I prefer a corner desk with a rounded, concave cutout. I can imagine with a bit of competitive pricing I could put one together for less than $100. I'd probably go with a birch or maple veneer plywood and stain it to the right color.
To be fair though, I'm a hobbyist woodworker and a lot of people don't have the inclination, patience, or skill to build a desk. There is also little point in DIY if what you can buy can be tax deducted as a business expense.
As the Cloudant Founder (YCS08) that opened the Seattle office, I really enjoy the diversity of this comment stream. I wrote this post because I thought it would provide some insight into our company, and because others may find it useful. We have been exceptionally busy building product, revenue and team. After fiddling with the prototype desk in my backyard, we ended up with something economical, fast, ergonomic and flexible. You may say we have a "scalable" desk design.
A bit more about the desks, to address some of the comments below. We can move the desks around easier than "L" shaped ikea frames and have tried multiple positions. I prefer to gaze at a brick wall for focus, others like to gaze out the window or into the room. The desks can be moved in the center of the room and "stacked" like a big lab bench for group hacking. They can also be assembled into mega "L" shaped desks if you need to, say, sort through 2 years of receipts. Getting the height right was a big challenge, and we didn't scrimp on chairs. We also have screws in the feet to adjust the height of the desks if needed. Laptop heat is a non-issue so far, and they don't require coasters.
Per the bigger picture, I'm glad to discuss/listen on the relative merits of team building, brand identity/pride, and balancing running a surprisingly large global data service if that's of interest. We did this for many reasons, but a major portion was to have some fun in the (exceptionally rare) off hours. I would say that building something mechanical and getting the chance to do manual labor is all too rare in my life, and something from which I derive deep satisfaction.
Also, I can't say this enough -- we got a huge assist from friends and family of Cloudant.
Kudos to you and the team for caring about the culture.
People tend to forget that the company culture - shared interests and activities being a big part of it - plays a huge part in shaping the quality of the product/service. In addition, it helps build a sense of identity and pride among employees, which is especially important for a fast growing company.
Taking some time off to work on a project like this might actually provide huge returns which are not immediately apparent.
I've always done the t leg ikea galant desks (glass, preferably), with aeron chairs ($300 used, $600 new, IMO worth it), and now, ergotron monitor arms. Generic but totally functional.
Cheap, relatively stable, strong, flat on top, somewhat rounded edge so you don't hurt your wrists, maximum free span width underneath. Adjustable height. Wheels would be cool, but I haven't tried that.
The glass IKEA Galant desks do make it really difficult to mount monitor arms (you can't bolt through tempered glass, and pressure clamps are risky on glass), so I ended up putting two oak boards on the top and bottom in the back (1" thick, 8" wide, width of the table + 2"), and clamping stuff to those.
Glass is nice because it's really easy to clean. I believe in keeping the desk basically empty when not in use, with all monitors/etc. supported by arms. I do leave 2 keyboards, a mouse, and a magictrackpad on the desk itself, since I don't have a good way to mount them to anything.
Ikea desks are not too expensive and will have a higher resell value than your door desks when your company goes under from spending too much time making desks.
I like those brick walls. Bricks on my country are generally clearer and color doesn't vary that much. Do you know if that is some treatment on the bricks so they look old, or perhaps they are really old?
If I could choose so, I rather have my screens facing a wall, or even better the front door. I just don't like the feeling that people might be monitoring what I'm doing. Anyone else notices that?
It says a lot about the work ethic of a company when they are willing to dedicate a weekend of their own time to build something with their own two hands. It shows that the team can problem solve together on many levels, has common sense, and that they enjoy working hard. As an outside member of this construction effort, I, the "fiancee LJ", appreciated being involved in the start-up process because it provided me a way to contribute and be part of the start-up spirit. Why should my fiancee get to have all the fun? In my opinion, the benefits of this project (team building, original furniture, bragging rights, significant money savings) far outweighed what would have been gained with the satisfaction of a trip to Ikea. Thanks Cloudant!
It's hard to see this as the YC way of running a business. The CEO can make desks from doors and his girlfriend can create a floor plan in sketchup, but neither scales. Establishing potentially ongoing relationships with a carpentry shop and with a team of design professionals does.
This is a kneepads v. packing table decision:
we were packing on our hands and knees on a hard concrete floor. I remember, just to show you how stupid I can be -- my only defense is that it was late. We were packing these things, everybody in the company and I had this brainstorm as I said to the person next to me, "This packing is killing me! My back hurts, this is killing my knees on this hard cement floor" and this person said, "Yeah, I know what you mean." And I said, "You know what we need?" my brilliant insight, "We need knee pads!'" I was very serious, and this person looked at me like I was the stupidest person they'd ever seen. I'm working for this person? This is great. "What we need is packing tables." -- Jeff Bezos
If it's not too rude to ask, what is your rent? I'm seeing $4.50-7 in Palo Alto for a range of spaces (it gets cheaper for huge space out of downtown); $1-2.50 for light industrial or office space in Mountain View, and $1.50-4 in SF.
I'd far prefer to be in Seattle (and love Pioneer Square), but I think I'm stuck down here.
56 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 114 ms ] threadTheir at work, they're suppose to be working on their work not watching netflix.
I think its a nice setup. My only concern would be my laptop overheating on those wooden desks.
Meaning they decided to procrastinate instead of working on their product/service.
> we instead chose to purchase solid core doors from Home Depot (~$40 each)
Meaning they instead chose to spend more on something that wasn't designed to be a desk than an actual desk.
From [1]:
Ergonomically, door desks leave a lot to be desired. Keyboards were usually too high. Typing for hours could be uncomfortable. And those angle brackets have sharp edges; accidentally scrapping exposed flesh against those was a mistake that wouldn't be repeated.
[1] - http://glinden.blogspot.co.uk/2006/01/early-amazon-door-desk...
If they were truly procrastinating, you've got a point. But that's hardly implicit in having spent time and energy on a desk. You can't work productively 24x7. You need downtime.
And those desks, not to minimize the effort they did put into them, don't look like a huge time investment to me.
As to the ergonomics, sure: ideally you want adjustable desk height and some way to get monitors to a comfortable height. But how often have you found those qualities in the sub-$40 desks you'd have them buy?
To put it bluntly: I don't think I've ever seen an adjustable height desk with a raised stand for a monitor in an office environment. Consumer home-office furniture are lousy with those features. But for most office furniture, you're lucky if they buy a $10 wooden monitor stand or if the desk's adjust more than they need to allow for leveling.
You'd have to haunt the clearance company to actually score a good desk and I still doubt you'd be walking away with one for $40.
Problem 1: no link to main Cloudant page from the blog post.
Problem 2: at least 2 broken links to their products at the bottom of the page: (Big Couch, Private Cloud both give 404s)
Slightly sloppy; not that big a deal. But people might see.
This is why they don't read news sites during the work day. Oh wait ...
My point was that all of this takes time, and doesn't sound like something a lean and mean startup would do. Buying doors at $40 doesn't sound lean, the time spent instead of working on the product/service doesn't sound lean. There's an opportunity cost that should be factored in and they could've saved a load of money and time by buying the furniture second hand.
Having said all that, it's their business and not mine, and if taking time out to build these desks won't disrupt their schedules or revenue stream then it's up to them if they want to do it. Personally I'd never allow it anywhere I work, but time's much more important (and billable) in my industry so their mileage may vary.
Of course, they now have something tangible with their time that reminds them of the day they built their own desks. If there's value in that then more power to them.
And it's interesting that you're ignoring the Aeron chairs - or are they worth spending money on?
Update: My bad, they're actually Progrid chairs from Costco, not Aerons.
We offer Aeron chairs if folks want them. I tried the ProGrid (~10 way adjustable) chairs from Costco Business on a whim (I was stocking up on water cooler, fridge, etc). Costco has a great return policy, so no pressure. I've found them very adjustable and comfortable, so far no complaints or requests for an Aeron here. I should note that we got the mid-back version and it's a bit short for our 6' 6" @chewbranca.
Anyways I am just happy to see something Seattle related.
I prefer a corner desk with a rounded, concave cutout. I can imagine with a bit of competitive pricing I could put one together for less than $100. I'd probably go with a birch or maple veneer plywood and stain it to the right color.
To be fair though, I'm a hobbyist woodworker and a lot of people don't have the inclination, patience, or skill to build a desk. There is also little point in DIY if what you can buy can be tax deducted as a business expense.
A bit more about the desks, to address some of the comments below. We can move the desks around easier than "L" shaped ikea frames and have tried multiple positions. I prefer to gaze at a brick wall for focus, others like to gaze out the window or into the room. The desks can be moved in the center of the room and "stacked" like a big lab bench for group hacking. They can also be assembled into mega "L" shaped desks if you need to, say, sort through 2 years of receipts. Getting the height right was a big challenge, and we didn't scrimp on chairs. We also have screws in the feet to adjust the height of the desks if needed. Laptop heat is a non-issue so far, and they don't require coasters.
Per the bigger picture, I'm glad to discuss/listen on the relative merits of team building, brand identity/pride, and balancing running a surprisingly large global data service if that's of interest. We did this for many reasons, but a major portion was to have some fun in the (exceptionally rare) off hours. I would say that building something mechanical and getting the chance to do manual labor is all too rare in my life, and something from which I derive deep satisfaction.
Also, I can't say this enough -- we got a huge assist from friends and family of Cloudant.
People tend to forget that the company culture - shared interests and activities being a big part of it - plays a huge part in shaping the quality of the product/service. In addition, it helps build a sense of identity and pride among employees, which is especially important for a fast growing company.
Taking some time off to work on a project like this might actually provide huge returns which are not immediately apparent.
Imagine my surprise when I read the name LJ, and Mike, and Physics @ MIT .. and put two and two together.
-Long Time friend of your neighbors, C&J. :)
The glass IKEA Galant desks do make it really difficult to mount monitor arms (you can't bolt through tempered glass, and pressure clamps are risky on glass), so I ended up putting two oak boards on the top and bottom in the back (1" thick, 8" wide, width of the table + 2"), and clamping stuff to those.
Glass is nice because it's really easy to clean. I believe in keeping the desk basically empty when not in use, with all monitors/etc. supported by arms. I do leave 2 keyboards, a mouse, and a magictrackpad on the desk itself, since I don't have a good way to mount them to anything.
The other nice thing is that Logitech "darkfield" laser mice work fine on even clear glass tables, somehow.
There's a link to blog.cloudent.com but not cloudent.com, which is where I actually wanted to go.
if you add up all the time it took to sand, varish, cut, drill etc it would have costs so much more. time is money man.
This is a kneepads v. packing table decision:
we were packing on our hands and knees on a hard concrete floor. I remember, just to show you how stupid I can be -- my only defense is that it was late. We were packing these things, everybody in the company and I had this brainstorm as I said to the person next to me, "This packing is killing me! My back hurts, this is killing my knees on this hard cement floor" and this person said, "Yeah, I know what you mean." And I said, "You know what we need?" my brilliant insight, "We need knee pads!'" I was very serious, and this person looked at me like I was the stupidest person they'd ever seen. I'm working for this person? This is great. "What we need is packing tables." -- Jeff Bezos
http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/bez0int-4
I'd far prefer to be in Seattle (and love Pioneer Square), but I think I'm stuck down here.