And thats why I recommend anybody to never ever connect your new TV to the internet. Just buy an Apple TV. No ads, fast ui, regular updates and overall great experience. I have tried 3 different android tv alternatives with the NV Shield and mibox but the all suffered the same laggy ui, crashes and ads.
Note: You do _need_ an iPad or an iPhone to accept the terms and condition to download apps. I had to go through the trouble to logout my iPad account and then to login my uncles new apple account on my iPad, just so he could use his new Apple TV.
I don't know what Jellyfin or SmartTube is.. but I do watch videos from other sources such as Samba shares, and for that I use Infuse. The Apple TV app is really good and there's a client for macOS and iOS as well.
Has it stopped crashing yet? Honest question, I try it every few months and it always spontaneously combusts in between playbacks (browsing media, when finishing playing, etc.)
I do not remember the time it has ever crashed - and I am quite sensitive to software not working well. I can complain about the strange UI choices but not about the stability. Running this on latest Apple TV 4K
You could try Chromecast. I've used it occasionally, never had any issues with UI, pretty smooth with no lags or crashes. It does have the Jellyfin app on it too.
>Note: You do _need_ an iPad or an iPhone to accept the terms and condition to download apps.
I... don't think that's correct. I bought and set up an Apple TV less than a year ago, and I've never owned an iPhone or iPad. I don't remember having to do anything unusual to download apps.
(I did happen to have a pre-existing Apple account from back when I owned a click-wheel iPod, and I used that during set-up. Maybe that's the difference?)
> I did happen to have a pre-existing Apple account
Yes, this is the difference. I was only able to accept the terms and conditions after we got the popup on the iPad. Until then tvOS Apps just did not download without any error message.
You can get same result by just blocking DNS lookups for everything except the sites you want to access. You can go a step forward and only allow traffic to looked up hosts.
One way to look at this is this: unless you bought a very high-end model, the TV you bought was very likely "subsidized" by ad vendors: instead of the TV maker getting all their revenue from your purchase of the TV, they got part of it from advertisers, Nielsen, etc. It's the same way with pre-installed Windows on computers, where Microsoft gets paid by the crapware companies to pre-install their crapware ("trial versions") on new computers hoping buyers will purchase the full versions. Anyway, if your TV purchase was partially subsidized by the ad vendors, then the price for having a TV that works the way you want it to could be said to be that you need to spend extra time and energy to do these workarounds.
Perhaps, though the suggestion of using an Apple TV or equivalent and never connecting the TV to the Internet at all is a far easier thing to manage.
Trying to block things in this way ends up being a whack-a-mole situation, and you're also suck monitoring it forever as the vendor deploys things to bypass any blocks, or adds/changes things.
I've done it in the past though it really is an annoying thing to monitor and keep up with. I guess you can use public block lists that can take care of some of it for you.
Certainly, there's different workarounds that can be used to solve this problem, and they all have their advantages and disadvantages. Buying an AppleTV or equivalent will cost more money and may have its own drawbacks (can't install SmartTube on AppleTV for instance), whereas for instance setting up a PiHole server to filter traffic to your TV is probably more work but for less money (assuming you already have something to run it on).
The way I see it, there really isn't a perfect solution for any of this: you can't just go out and buy devices that do exactly what you want them to, because vendors don't want to sell those to you (unless you're a billionaire perhaps, and willing to pay truly absurd prices for bespoke custom solutions): vendors want to make a profit, and they've found they can do that more easily these days by selling stuff to consumers at razor-thin (or below-cost even) margins, and then making money after the sale with advertising and spying. It's like the Gillette razor-and-blade model. So it's up to us (consumers, collectively) to come up with workarounds and modifications and other technological solutions and share them with each other.
> Trying to block things in this way ends up being a whack-a-mole situation, and you're also suck monitoring it forever as the vendor deploys things to bypass any blocks, or adds/changes things.
Just a note, for the linked item I haven't change anything in 2 years and it's still working fine.
That's because it's an allow list, nothing gets through unless it's specifically towards netflix domains and addresses.
It's much easier to manage then the reverse as you noted.
Sure, it could be defeated with effort but it would be visible (updates available or ads or similar), and at that point you start investigating.
It also requires some initial effort to set up if you want anything else from the TV (say youtube or amazon prime and so on)
> Note: You do _need_ an iPad or an iPhone to accept the terms and condition to download apps. I had to go through the trouble to logout my iPad account and then to login my uncles new apple account on my iPad, just so he could use his new Apple TV.
Classic Apple. "Don't you dare buy our hardware unless you're ready to go all in and buy all of our ecosystem!". Does the Apple TV have similarly bad UX as an iPad, in that if for some reason it can't install an app it just spins a wheel forever, without any feedback about what's wrong? I had that when trying to install Apple TV+ (yes, they suck at naming things) on an iPad, it was failing because I had no payment method set up, but graciously refused to tell me why. Similarly, Apple TV+ has a fun bug that if you try to download too many things at the same time (say, you're at the airport and want to download a season of a series before a flight), after 2-3 it fails with "download failed" and the only solution is a full restart of the iPad.
For all of those, there were years' old forum posts describing the bugs and the "solutions".
I've been using NV Shield Pro for 3 years, streaming from a self hosted Jellyfin collection. Unless I'm compelled to, I will never buy anything from Apple in the future.
I bought an NVIDIA Shield at a nice discount during a sale, but unfortunately ended up taking it back to the store - it was not mentioned anywhere on the packaging that you cannot use the device without signing into a Google account. Wasn't too happy to discover this!
I was a loyal Shield Pro user for years until they started throwing ads on the home screen. Sure you can tinker with it, use a piHole or a custom homescreen. I ended up giving it to a friend and buying an Apple TV
No thanks, the last thing I want is having multiple remotes for my TV experience. My LG CX is ad free, smooth, and has all the apps I need - I'll keep it for as long as it works.
The only time I use the actual remote for my TV is when I want to fiddle with the TV color & brightness settings, or switch to an HDMI input with my laptop (but actually usually I just press the input button on the TV itself in that case), both scenarios are very infrequent; otherwise I basically exclusively use the Apple TV remote, it can turn on and off my TV and otherwise everything just happens inside the Apple TV UI.
Yeah, it's kind of mind-boggling. I constantly get "here's your 2FA code" to my email, despite using an ultra-long obfuscated email address -- meaning attackers have found some auth endpoint that doesn't require entering the 2FA email address to have the code sent (normally I have to type out the actual destination address before it will send the code). I do what I can to keep my stuff secure, but man, idunno. Systems are only as secure as the weakest link and thus far that's always been the vendor, not me.
I wonder if, when Google was trying to make a free OS so it could ensure its services were preinstalled and nagging while avoiding being totally beholden to Apple, it realised that the big appeal to hardware manufacturers who adopted it was that it helped them enshitten things for their users?
My next TV will likely be an LG because I generally like the price/performance ratio, but it will never be allowed to access the Internet (my current one has LAN à access for HomeKit automation but is blocked at the router).
Yep, after the stories about what TVs were doing with the microphones, I have never put my wifi password in any of my TVs. Yes, that means you need to get a separate streaming box... amazon sticks are cheap and pretty good, apple tv is expensive and great.
I have an LG - 2012ish - and still receiving software updates from LG. I let it connect to the internet, and with the right TV settings, I’ve never seen it show me ads
I have a 2022 LGTV that asks for spooky permissions. One permission is is ad telemetry. I had it connected through a PiHole for ad blocking my network and noticed it contacting an ad-telemetry endpoint, even though I have that permission denied. I don't remember the name of the company, but they do AI recognition of imagery from your TV to determine ads.
It's also so easy to accept those permissions. Every time an update occurred, it would re-prompt to accept the permission. One false click and you're opt-in.
Which sucks, because if a guest or a kid is forced to go through that workflow, they may not know to decline the permissions.
Total dark pattern. Let me opt-out and then stop nagging me for the permission over and over.
Since then, the TV has been banned from the internet. Problem solved.
No that I know, but not insulting people just because you feel "edgy" doesn't mean you're making people "revered and protected" either. It's called decency.
I have exactly that in two rooms and it has some issues. I cannot turn off either display with the remote and I cannot change the volume with the remote in one room.
The experience seems way different on Euro LGs, at least for me. My 2020~ C9 hasn't shown any ads at all ever. Youtube App's own recommendations in the app menu are awful though and to be avoided.
My c. 2022 LG in the UK had something I would describe as ads - don't remember what exactly, but it was the tipping point that got me to get install a pihole
the starkest part of this sort of thing is just how there is no shame instinct at the upper levels of Big Company management. you need to internalise that any system that you imagine might be bound by embarrassment or shame at the top is not and won't be.
Double dipping with adverts is the way. Amazon, Spotify, dropped them all after they started pushing adverts as well as getting their monthly cost. It's not new -- cable/sky TV was exactly the same (although sky one was the other way round - started with adverts, then added a subscription fee in 1993 [0])
The far bigger problem is that the majority of people accept adverts. They don't consider them a cost. Last time I got a yellow cab in New York it was adverts on a TV screen in the back. I get ubers if I need a cab now.
The future of adverts was accurately predicted in idiocracy [1], and of course Futurama had comentary on this a quarter of a century ago [2]
I'm just waiting for the "TV" that doesn't work until you activate it online. I fully expect this is coming, though I'd be glad to be wrong about this. First, normalize everyone giving their wifi credentials to the TV upon buying it, for important/useful functionality. Less and less functionality available prior to "activating", until eventually you can't even use it as a display until activating.
Simultaneously I'm not looking forward to replacing my current TV due to its increasingly-prevalent horizontal black lines (as mentioned at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41655660 )... :(
This is what's happening with Philips Hue light bulbs, switches, etc. First, you could do what you want. Then you needed their stuff to activate all features. In a couple of months, you'll have no choice but to use an account.
Luckily, they still use the Zigbee protocol, so you can set up a Zigbee USB dongle with mosquitto and zigbee2mqtt or Home Assistant and do whatever you want.
I think TV's should be completely dumb just a monitor in fact with maybe a lot more HDMI ports. I can attach my own media device, Apple TV, Roku etc no need to paying extra for poor version of these built into the TV.
I've got a Samsung smart TV I purchased a couple of years ago. I've never seen a single ad on it (the drawback is that the TV's app store doesn't work either as it belongs to a domain also used for ads).
When I tried to disable the PiHole for a couple of minutes, I couldn't recognize my TV anymore. Ads in the menu, ads popping up in the corners of the TV, ads everywhere.
It's no coincidence I guess that my smart TV is the main offender when it comes to requests to blocked domains on my PiHole.
Just get a PiHole, and, unless the TV manufacturer refuses to pick the DNS server used in your network, or they've found ways to inject ads without hosting them on blocked domains, you won't get a single second of harassment.
>I've got a Samsung smart TV I purchased a couple of years ago. ... When I tried to disable the PiHole for a couple of minutes, I couldn't recognize my TV anymore. Ads in the menu, ads popping up in the corners of the TV, ads everywhere.
I recommend TCL TVs running GoogleOS (aka Android). I got one a couple of years ago, and honestly it's fine, even without any ad-blocking. The only ads I see are a still ad on the main screen for some new local TV show, and this ad (just a still picture) changes every 5 seconds or so to another one in sequence). It's not even annoying really, and it's the only one. Under this picture is a bar with all the installed apps, so I just hit down-arrow twice to go to there and select either SmartTube or Jellyfin and run that.
Of course, they could send an update later that adds a bunch of really annoying ads, but I haven't seen it yet. It's also possible there's spyware on there capturing my viewing habits, but I'm not sure what it's going to see when all I do on it is use the two apps above.
Anyway, the other nice thing about Android on your TV is that since it's Android, you can pretty easily side-load apps of your choice, including alternative YouTube clients like SmartTube, ReVanced, etc., instead of being limited to apps from the manufacturer's store.
88 comments
[ 2.5 ms ] story [ 88.8 ms ] threadNote: You do _need_ an iPad or an iPhone to accept the terms and condition to download apps. I had to go through the trouble to logout my iPad account and then to login my uncles new apple account on my iPad, just so he could use his new Apple TV.
But OP's advice still stands: don't connect your TV to the internet.
I... don't think that's correct. I bought and set up an Apple TV less than a year ago, and I've never owned an iPhone or iPad. I don't remember having to do anything unusual to download apps.
(I did happen to have a pre-existing Apple account from back when I owned a click-wheel iPod, and I used that during set-up. Maybe that's the difference?)
Yes, this is the difference. I was only able to accept the terms and conditions after we got the popup on the iPad. Until then tvOS Apps just did not download without any error message.
Example: https://github.com/AdrianCX/pico_hole
That way you can still use the TV and not have it spy on you, that part is more worrying then the ads:
> It has a partnership with Nielsen that sends automatic content-recognition data gathered from LG TVs to Nielsen
Unfortunately, if I were to replace I'm not even sure I can find something that doesn't or won't do this in the future.
So perhaps we'll start seeing consumer routers with this blocking built in. (would be a nice logical add on to help sell them)
Trying to block things in this way ends up being a whack-a-mole situation, and you're also suck monitoring it forever as the vendor deploys things to bypass any blocks, or adds/changes things.
I've done it in the past though it really is an annoying thing to monitor and keep up with. I guess you can use public block lists that can take care of some of it for you.
The way I see it, there really isn't a perfect solution for any of this: you can't just go out and buy devices that do exactly what you want them to, because vendors don't want to sell those to you (unless you're a billionaire perhaps, and willing to pay truly absurd prices for bespoke custom solutions): vendors want to make a profit, and they've found they can do that more easily these days by selling stuff to consumers at razor-thin (or below-cost even) margins, and then making money after the sale with advertising and spying. It's like the Gillette razor-and-blade model. So it's up to us (consumers, collectively) to come up with workarounds and modifications and other technological solutions and share them with each other.
Just a note, for the linked item I haven't change anything in 2 years and it's still working fine.
That's because it's an allow list, nothing gets through unless it's specifically towards netflix domains and addresses.
It's much easier to manage then the reverse as you noted.
Sure, it could be defeated with effort but it would be visible (updates available or ads or similar), and at that point you start investigating.
It also requires some initial effort to set up if you want anything else from the TV (say youtube or amazon prime and so on)
"Just."
Are you willing to configure such a setup for my mom and Aunt Millie? And provide ongoing technical support?
Steps are pretty simple:
- build and dump image on a 7$ raspberry pi pico, put that on the network.
- Configure TV DNS server to point to the pico.
- Configure router to block DNS traffic entirely from TV.
- Test
If it works, then it should work a long time. TV won't get any updates, netflix doesn't seem to cycle or add new domains.
Classic Apple. "Don't you dare buy our hardware unless you're ready to go all in and buy all of our ecosystem!". Does the Apple TV have similarly bad UX as an iPad, in that if for some reason it can't install an app it just spins a wheel forever, without any feedback about what's wrong? I had that when trying to install Apple TV+ (yes, they suck at naming things) on an iPad, it was failing because I had no payment method set up, but graciously refused to tell me why. Similarly, Apple TV+ has a fun bug that if you try to download too many things at the same time (say, you're at the airport and want to download a season of a series before a flight), after 2-3 it fails with "download failed" and the only solution is a full restart of the iPad.
For all of those, there were years' old forum posts describing the bugs and the "solutions".
Need to register an already bought Mac to your MDM? Have to buy an iPhone to install Apple Configurator for that.
Need to register an already bought iPhone/iPad to your MDM? Have to buy a Mac to install Apple Configurator for that.
Eww
I would rather deal with the LG ads.
I needed a small HDMI monitor so bought a small Samsung TV at Big Box Store.
It would not function without an Internet connection, could not get past the first power up screen. I returned it to the store.
Probably thinks your broke, ha! I joke.
It's also so easy to accept those permissions. Every time an update occurred, it would re-prompt to accept the permission. One false click and you're opt-in.
Which sucks, because if a guest or a kid is forced to go through that workflow, they may not know to decline the permissions.
Total dark pattern. Let me opt-out and then stop nagging me for the permission over and over.
Since then, the TV has been banned from the internet. Problem solved.
> Is a personal attack on any group really needed, especially here on HN?
“Dumb fucks”, while certainly not a compliment, is what Zuck called Facebook users who trusted the company and shared personal details of their lives.
I hate smart TVs getting enshittified, but it seems the alternative is expensive dumb TVs + external stuff with its own problems.
If I buy an ad-laden device for $500 I should be able to buy a non-ad-laden device for $550.
[0] https://investors.vizio.com/news/news-details/2021/VIZIO-HOL...
The far bigger problem is that the majority of people accept adverts. They don't consider them a cost. Last time I got a yellow cab in New York it was adverts on a TV screen in the back. I get ubers if I need a cab now.
The future of adverts was accurately predicted in idiocracy [1], and of course Futurama had comentary on this a quarter of a century ago [2]
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e6XNcDu5fM
[1] https://youtu.be/hj7c0J_V1L8?si=exc_Zsgx07psBMS1&t=5
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPGgTy5YJ-g
Simultaneously I'm not looking forward to replacing my current TV due to its increasingly-prevalent horizontal black lines (as mentioned at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41655660 )... :(
Luckily, they still use the Zigbee protocol, so you can set up a Zigbee USB dongle with mosquitto and zigbee2mqtt or Home Assistant and do whatever you want.
I've got a Samsung smart TV I purchased a couple of years ago. I've never seen a single ad on it (the drawback is that the TV's app store doesn't work either as it belongs to a domain also used for ads).
When I tried to disable the PiHole for a couple of minutes, I couldn't recognize my TV anymore. Ads in the menu, ads popping up in the corners of the TV, ads everywhere.
It's no coincidence I guess that my smart TV is the main offender when it comes to requests to blocked domains on my PiHole.
Just get a PiHole, and, unless the TV manufacturer refuses to pick the DNS server used in your network, or they've found ways to inject ads without hosting them on blocked domains, you won't get a single second of harassment.
I recommend TCL TVs running GoogleOS (aka Android). I got one a couple of years ago, and honestly it's fine, even without any ad-blocking. The only ads I see are a still ad on the main screen for some new local TV show, and this ad (just a still picture) changes every 5 seconds or so to another one in sequence). It's not even annoying really, and it's the only one. Under this picture is a bar with all the installed apps, so I just hit down-arrow twice to go to there and select either SmartTube or Jellyfin and run that.
Of course, they could send an update later that adds a bunch of really annoying ads, but I haven't seen it yet. It's also possible there's spyware on there capturing my viewing habits, but I'm not sure what it's going to see when all I do on it is use the two apps above.
Anyway, the other nice thing about Android on your TV is that since it's Android, you can pretty easily side-load apps of your choice, including alternative YouTube clients like SmartTube, ReVanced, etc., instead of being limited to apps from the manufacturer's store.
Likely they will tunnel all WiFi traffic to avoid pi holes and use their own hard coded DNS.
The clever tricks many people here suggest won’t likely work the next time they need to buy a tv.