My equity stake and the small size of our team means my work directly contributes to the value of the company, which in turn contributes to my own personal net worth.
Only going off of anecdotes here, but doesn't it take being a very early or significant employee plus a big dollop of luck to get enough equity to make it "interesting" in net worth terms? (The author seems to be an early employee, but from employees of startups I know, being employee 43 or whatever gets quite boring equity wise..)
True - it seems though that she is in it for much more than the $$ which is great. Anyone joining a start up for the money does not have statistics on their side.
And maybe it's just me, but I almost stop thinking of startups as 'startups' when you're at 40+ employees. I don't know if that's fair, or even rational, but it's much harder to be the same plucky young company with 40 employees that you were with three to five.
Probably I'm just being obnoxious though, because clearly there are cases where it's still 'obviously' a startup, but I'm having a hard time thinking of any that don't involve VC.
In my mind, startup-ness is not about size, but about culture. You've got invaders and you've got occupiers. Invaders have to improvise, have to be agile, have to seek out a better way because they have no incentive to uphold the status quo. Occupiers just keep doing what they already do, optimizing it perhaps, but never truly innovating. There are 40-person companies out there who've already become occupiers, and there is one 400 billion dollar giant who is arguably still in invasion mode.
I also like Eric Ries' definition: a group of people operating under conditions of extreme uncertainty.
I also like Eric Ries' definition: a group of people operating under conditions of extreme uncertainty.
Would you say by that definition, GitHub isn't a startup? (Since they're well established in their niche, despite being young, and have a huge subscriber base forking over wads of cash every month?)
Perhaps I'm reading that statement wrong... what does equity stake and team size have to do with your work producing value for the company? Maybe you're less motivated, but your work is either producing value or not -- regardless of equity stake. Awkward wording, I suppose...?
The role of money is implied a few times in the post (salary, net worth, etc.) While "producing value for the company" will have an effect on your continued employment and equity stake over the long term, if you only own 0.1% of the company, it's potentially not an "interesting" amount in terms of affecting your net worth (e.g. $200k at a $200M acquisition - not chump change, but your salary drop may already have swallowed that potential gain). Of course, 0.1% might be totally unrealistic, I'm just throwing a number in the air :-)
You're right, Peter. I am a very early employee, but even considering my equity stake, this was not a good move if the only measurement is personal net worth.
What I failed to convey is the feeling of accomplishment from personally contributing to the company, and the notion of ownership in the company. In a huge consultancy, you never really feel like you're personally moving the needle of the enterprise. You're paid for your work and you get bonuses based on company performance, but that's just one form of compensation.
I like that in a small startup, salary & equity compensation is just one piece of the picture. I like that I can increase the value of the company itself, and the company itself is important to me personally. I'm compensated tangibly in the form of salary & equity and intangibly in the form of pride.
I did the opposite. I had a modest exit on my startup, and worked for the acquirer until my time was up. Then, instead of just taking a dang break, I was wooed by a Random Giant Agency with more than I'll ever make as straight salary in my life probably.
Despite how well I was treated in general, it was the most angst-inducing and soul-draining experience of my life. I left after only a few months and felt incredibly spoiled for doing so. Now I'm a smelly startup hippy again.
Like Michelle points out - once you make above a certain amount, money doesn't really move the happiness meter much. At least for certain people! You and I seem like we're among that bunch.
I like that "rested racehorses" metaphor: have the ability to run fast when required, but not all the time to the point where you break down. Let's hope that doesn't turn into a cliche someplace!
Agreed. We stole it from Jim Franklin (TechStars mentor and SendGrid CEO), who gave a great talk at TechStars Cloud on leadership and company culture. This is just one of the many concepts he covered that we've since internalized :)
"Mostly, I was growing tired of implementing <some old-school technology> to solve <some generic enterprise problem>. I’m a builder at heart, and I wanted to contribute to Creating a Thing"
Consulting offers a great balance between personal freedom, and cash flow, and that to me is one of its greatest strengths. You get the small team comraderie too, as you mentioned. With a startup, if you can build that product, yes, then a startup is ideal. But that's extremely tough.
For me, I'm willing to sacrifice a small piece of my freedom in exchange for that cash flow.
Everybody's different on that front. We all have to figure out how much we're willing to sacrifice something, be it "freedom", interest in work, happiness, time, etc. for our paycheck. I think the interesting thing is that people's view here definitely changes over time.
My corporate job for five and a half years after college offered amazing cash flow and other perks and I didn't feel like I was sacrificing anything. But eventually I felt like the pace at which I was learning slowed down too much and I knew I needed to make a change. With the nest egg I had built up over the years, I knew I could quit without sacrificing a ton.
Starting Keen was one of the best decisions I've ever made. Do you think your opinion will change in the next five years?
At my last job I was making way more money than I could realistically spend, but there was no way I could go half-time and get those precious hours back for other things.
Consulting gives me that freedom, which I appreciate more and more as the years go by.
That is awesome that you made the jump from enterprise to working for yourself (or at least being able to set your own work pace). Are you independent or do you work with a firm? I think my consulting firm had some flexible work options. I know one person who worked only 4 days per week. But I don't think I ever saw anyone go half-time. That's a great option you have.
I'm indie right now. I spent the last year trying to make a living selling my own iOS apps and not making much money. But it looks like the freelance iOS market is pretty good so I'm shifting my focus to contracting.
As much as I've enjoyed working in several start-ups, I've been looking to go to consulting for more than a year and finding it tough.
In part its the level I'm "expected" to go into at (Manager), when I don't have consulting experience and the reluctance for firms to let me willingly start at a lower level to learn those internal skills and knowledge. I also doubt start-up experience is valued as much in the countries I'm most likely to work in, as it is in the US.
I think you have the right idea about going in at a lower level first. I saw managers hired from outside of the consulting world get crushed. Even after climbing my way up the ladder, I sometimes felt a bit in over my head as a manager. They really expect you to have a lot of things polished - understanding project financials/contracts, presenting to client execs, negotiating with other vendors, managing your team, the firm's project methodology, etc. That last one would be especially challenging for someone new to the company. Is there a way to tailor your resume/experience so that it looks more natural for you to be started as an experienced consultant rather than a manager?
Yes, that's what I've been doing (aiming for Consultant instead of manager).
Another issue which is largely unsaid, but was in one interview when I made final round interview with the Partner, was that I was possibly "too old" for Consultant level for most of the larger firms doing the international work I'm most interested in. I was older than all of their managers and he had concerns they wouldn't be able to give me instructions. My reply was that I was willingly going in at that level to learn and if feel intimidated to give me instructions, that says more about their own potential and level of confidence.
Wow. Age discrimination is illegal here in the US. I was a young manager and all of my direct reports were older, some of them over a decade older. Not a problem. Sounds like a place I wouldn't want to work anyway!!
I've just started doing consulting for the first time in my life, but it's all remote work which lets me spend all my free time here in lovely Nha Trang, Vietnam. It would appeal much less if I had to travel to client offices all the time.
It's too early to tell if this approach really has legs but if I can keep it up it's hard to imagine what would entice me back into a salaried job again.
That sounds great! I think I should have clarified in my post that I worked for one of the big 5 consulting firms here in the US. It was a salaried job. Independent consulting is much more entrepreneurial and I imagine you have quite a bit more freedom that way.
Of course on the other hand there's a lot more uncertainty and you have to hustle all your own clients and deal with billing etc. But the payoffs are substantial if you can make it work.
I think the only thing that would make me consider a full-time salaried job again is a family to support.
This is why I'm interested in starting freelancing/consulting. I think I'd enjoy being location independent more than I'd enjoy working at someone else's startup. Living somewhere cheap and only working part time while spending the rest of my time focusing on my own stuff really appeals to me. I haven't really figured out how to go about starting yet though.
Yeah exactly. If you're not too materialistic you don't have too work too many hours to pay the bills and that leaves you with a lot of time to work on your own ideas and/or just enjoy life.
Vietnam is very cheap. I can live quite comfortably here for about $1000/month and I could squeeze it down to about $600 if necessary. I'm currently renting a big, comfortable house within walking distance of the beach for about $350 a month. If you're at all interested in the hacker commune idea you could easily fit four people in a house this big and basically live for peanuts.
U.S. passport, currently just on tourist visa. You can stay for up to three months on a single visa before you either have to extend it or leave the country and come back.
Ah, cool. So what are you planning to do when your visa expires?
(I'm in a fairly similar situation, spent a few weeks in Vietnam this April, currently spending 3 months in Thailand, and then headed off to Japan - pretty much planning on bouncing around from country to country over the next few years.)
Not sure yet. Probably travel like you. One of the best perks of living in this area is that travel is very cheap and nothing is very far away. I'd like to spend more time in the Mekong delta and maybe also a few months in Cambodia and Laos.
Japan would be fun too but you burn cash a lot faster there.
I actually very recently searched HN for "hacker commune", I'm definitely open to it. Unfortunately I don't have many friends who I think would be interested, though it sounds pretty affordable even alone.
One of my major concerns is finding apartments. How do you manage to find short term leases, especially when you don't speak the language? I'm also curious about how you handle health insurance and cell phone usage. Could you point me in the right direction with these things? Any links would be great, my email is in my profile if you don't want to keep going on this thread.
The best thing is to make some local friends that will help you out with this kind of thing, but there are also rental agencies etc that can help you. Cell phone usage is simple. Just buy a SIM card in any shop and pop it in your phone.
For insurance I've used World Nomad's travel insurance.
47 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 114 ms ] threadOnly going off of anecdotes here, but doesn't it take being a very early or significant employee plus a big dollop of luck to get enough equity to make it "interesting" in net worth terms? (The author seems to be an early employee, but from employees of startups I know, being employee 43 or whatever gets quite boring equity wise..)
Here is Joe Spolky's on how equity ought to be divided: http://answers.onstartups.com/questions/6949/forming-a-new-s...
It gives you an idea of reasonable percentages.
edit: changed he to she
And maybe it's just me, but I almost stop thinking of startups as 'startups' when you're at 40+ employees. I don't know if that's fair, or even rational, but it's much harder to be the same plucky young company with 40 employees that you were with three to five.
Probably I'm just being obnoxious though, because clearly there are cases where it's still 'obviously' a startup, but I'm having a hard time thinking of any that don't involve VC.
In my mind, startup-ness is not about size, but about culture. You've got invaders and you've got occupiers. Invaders have to improvise, have to be agile, have to seek out a better way because they have no incentive to uphold the status quo. Occupiers just keep doing what they already do, optimizing it perhaps, but never truly innovating. There are 40-person companies out there who've already become occupiers, and there is one 400 billion dollar giant who is arguably still in invasion mode.
I also like Eric Ries' definition: a group of people operating under conditions of extreme uncertainty.
Would you say by that definition, GitHub isn't a startup? (Since they're well established in their niche, despite being young, and have a huge subscriber base forking over wads of cash every month?)
What I failed to convey is the feeling of accomplishment from personally contributing to the company, and the notion of ownership in the company. In a huge consultancy, you never really feel like you're personally moving the needle of the enterprise. You're paid for your work and you get bonuses based on company performance, but that's just one form of compensation.
I like that in a small startup, salary & equity compensation is just one piece of the picture. I like that I can increase the value of the company itself, and the company itself is important to me personally. I'm compensated tangibly in the form of salary & equity and intangibly in the form of pride.
Despite how well I was treated in general, it was the most angst-inducing and soul-draining experience of my life. I left after only a few months and felt incredibly spoiled for doing so. Now I'm a smelly startup hippy again.
Consulting offers a great balance between personal freedom, and cash flow, and that to me is one of its greatest strengths. You get the small team comraderie too, as you mentioned. With a startup, if you can build that product, yes, then a startup is ideal. But that's extremely tough.
For me, I'm willing to sacrifice a small piece of my freedom in exchange for that cash flow.
My corporate job for five and a half years after college offered amazing cash flow and other perks and I didn't feel like I was sacrificing anything. But eventually I felt like the pace at which I was learning slowed down too much and I knew I needed to make a change. With the nest egg I had built up over the years, I knew I could quit without sacrificing a ton.
Starting Keen was one of the best decisions I've ever made. Do you think your opinion will change in the next five years?
Consulting gives me that freedom, which I appreciate more and more as the years go by.
In part its the level I'm "expected" to go into at (Manager), when I don't have consulting experience and the reluctance for firms to let me willingly start at a lower level to learn those internal skills and knowledge. I also doubt start-up experience is valued as much in the countries I'm most likely to work in, as it is in the US.
Another issue which is largely unsaid, but was in one interview when I made final round interview with the Partner, was that I was possibly "too old" for Consultant level for most of the larger firms doing the international work I'm most interested in. I was older than all of their managers and he had concerns they wouldn't be able to give me instructions. My reply was that I was willingly going in at that level to learn and if feel intimidated to give me instructions, that says more about their own potential and level of confidence.
It's too early to tell if this approach really has legs but if I can keep it up it's hard to imagine what would entice me back into a salaried job again.
I think the only thing that would make me consider a full-time salaried job again is a family to support.
What's your cost of living like in Nha Trang?
Vietnam is very cheap. I can live quite comfortably here for about $1000/month and I could squeeze it down to about $600 if necessary. I'm currently renting a big, comfortable house within walking distance of the beach for about $350 a month. If you're at all interested in the hacker commune idea you could easily fit four people in a house this big and basically live for peanuts.
(I'm in a fairly similar situation, spent a few weeks in Vietnam this April, currently spending 3 months in Thailand, and then headed off to Japan - pretty much planning on bouncing around from country to country over the next few years.)
Japan would be fun too but you burn cash a lot faster there.
One of my major concerns is finding apartments. How do you manage to find short term leases, especially when you don't speak the language? I'm also curious about how you handle health insurance and cell phone usage. Could you point me in the right direction with these things? Any links would be great, my email is in my profile if you don't want to keep going on this thread.
For insurance I've used World Nomad's travel insurance.
You'll find that a lot of startups will be very flexible to your needs, the worst you can do is ask and see.