Feel like I want to say tu coque. Fallacy or not, one would surely recognise that it is a tango where both dancers are walking, not just the libs. But this authors goal is to say, imply it's a story of failure to mature by SJW and not somehow, actually "both sides" but I am afraid snot is pretty evenly spread about here.
Never thought I'd miss William Buckley but at least he was a literate intellect, capable of discerning the beams in his own eyes as he battered the motes of the left.
> ...such men, being unable to carry their prosperity, and thinking themselves superior to the rest of mankind, despise other people, although their own conduct is no better than another's. The fact is that they try to imitate the great-souled man without being really like him, and only copy him in what they can, reproducing his contempt for others but not his virtuous conduct.
Yes. Well said. Apposite. But we should also remember the Greeks and Roamans excelled in extreme acts of libel against their opposition, it was normalised for them to allege acts which even Trump can only dream of committing. Pussy grabbing would be the least of if.
Assuming everyone gets full marks except for necessary* dings:
foxes 15 A
lions 22 B
leonine foxes 15 AB +haughty +at will
vulpine lions 18 AB ++ambition +at will
* Those in skins are get dings from both sides (AB) but in order to play their public persona must have some desiderata added back. (they are also not living at someone else's will, or they wouldn't be wearing the skin)
A: It is also characteristic of the great-souled man never to ask help from others
and to be haughty towards men of position and fortune,
He must be open both in love and in hate
and care more for the truth than for what people will think;
and speak and act openly
He will be incapable of living at the will of another, unless a friend,
He is not prone to admiration, since nothing is great to him.
He is no gossip,
B: He will not compete for the common objects of ambition,
or go where other people take the first place
He will be incapable of living at the will of another, unless a friend,
EDIT: Rikki, the valiant, the true, Tikki, with eyeballs of flame: pure lion (22); vs Nag & Nagaina: pure fox (15)
Note that as a good Victorian, Rikki goes where other people take the first place: ...he sat on all their laps one after the other, because every well-brought-up mongoose always hopes to be a house-mongoose some day and have rooms to run about in, and Rikki-tikki's mother (she used to live in the General's house at Segowlee) had carefully told Rikki what to do if ever he came across white men.
I spoke too soon; been thinking about RTT and it is subtler (and I have more appreciation for Kipling's crafting)...
- (at the bush) RTT lion, Nagaina lion, Nag vulpine lion (...he wanted to get Rikki-tikki off his guard. So he dropped his head a little ... "Let us talk,"...)
- (bath-room) RTT lion, Nag lion
- (melon patch) RTT lion, Darzee's wife fox
- (verandah) RTT lion, Nagaina vulpine lion (I will go away and never come back; He had forgotten the egg. ... and Nagaina came nearer and nearer to it...)
- (rat-hole) RTT lion, Nagaina lion
I guess most likely in real life would've been the negative-sum end of a chess game: RTT and Nagaina would've killed each other's family before meeting, but Kipling does anticipate this, and has Darzee's wife report that Nagaina didn't follow her to the bush (maybe having been vulpine enough to be suspicious of Darzee's wife's "broken" wing; maybe just having seen the humans on the verandah?)
For someone whose current reputation is jingoistic, Kipling's female characters (pace Teddy's mother) here are more formidable than their mates.
Thanks! Much to mull over! Concede that im most sympathetic to leonine foxes (post-philodemus-patch though?). “Effective” leaders, in my book, have to give the people (先-後-不） what they want emotionally, and yet go against their will rather openly (risking assasination)
Young Pioneers certainly offered the drums and flags, and even bugles, as a bonus.
It depends how openly: leonine foxes when less; vulpine lions when more. (if the 不 or even 後 don't notice words and deeds don't match, that's their problem) Note that Kipling, in trying to keep his protagonist heroic, fobbed off all the fraud on a henchbird. [when Rikki puts Nagaina in a fork with the last egg, (a) he had not planned to do so, and (b) his threat is forceful, not fraudulent]
while I continue to underrate the emotional appeal of offering struggle:
— Isn't there something in living dangerously?
— There's a great deal in it. Men and women must have their adrenals stimulated from time to time.
— What?
— It's one of the conditions of perfect health. That's why we've made the V.P.S. treatments compulsory.
— V.P.S.?
— Violent Passion Surrogate. Regularly once a month. We flood the whole system with adrenin. It's the complete physiological equivalent of fear and rage. All the tonic effects of murdering Desdemona and being murdered by Othello, without any of the inconvenience.
2 things (in addition to your above VPS) that i urgently need to pay attention to [im procrastinating! Thanks to lizard brain survivalism? Was deluged by the not-meh HN graviton thread; i dont even know if any logician (what about Krivine/Koerner, you think?) knows the name of the county— the country* is “quantum gravity”.]:
- What did “the moral of equivalent of war” mean [WJ, but also JEC,J]. is it related to VPS
- Instinctive reverence is it nonsense, or something to practise over a lifetime?
*of which nothing is known but the name, pace PC
Ps: went looking here on HN histories also for the ideological arrows (via Marion Milner) between Montaigne & Montesquieu*. similar to Borodin & Linebarger iyho? Alert me to de Maistre if necessary
I doubt the logicians do; the most applied of the bunch I can think of is Büchi, who proved the equivalence between finite automata and monadic second-order logic.
(I've written elsewhere than people can cue off of context-dependent grammars, but other mammals are limited to regexps; now that I think about it more, they may even mostly operate in the star-free first-order regime... [but thinking about that a bit more, I'd say most people also prefer limited logic cues])
In PC's reminiscence, I only make it up to ~1955 (where at least I can identify a capital city and currency) before I also am reduced to knowing little of the countries but their names. (am I understanding properly that a Nuclear Operator is one which, despite operating on infinite dimensions, still has a finite trace? Or have I lost the trail, following false spoor?)
EDIT: although I am interested in the idea of Fourier-like analyses for noncommutative semigroups? Also, zeta functions have something of the folding/unfolding origami nature to them, going between bulk and individual data?
Can you expand upon PC's commutative triangle by any chance?
π_T = φ; π_X
(written here algebraically because HN* is a little unsupportive of the geometric.)
* like the soldier who supposedly heard "Nōlī turbāre circulōs meōs"?
> "Dogs, would you live forever?" shouted Frederick the Great. "Yes," say our utopians, "let us live forever, and raise our level gradually."
he's within epsilon of Orwell's Tin Pacifists. But without both Bildung and VPS (I get my adrenalin dumps from sport*, and note that since I stopped fencing I suffer in winter from lack of regular VPS) there is very little attractive to:
— What do we want?
— Gradual change!
— When do we want it?
— In due course!
* there is a lot to be said for the kind of tournament weekend where during the days everyone tries to kill each other, and then in the evenings everyone parties together — almost like a "pie in the sky when you die" the vikings would've wished for?
EDIT: note that WJ channels Plato's Guardians. I don't know what metaphor JEC used but suspect he would've reached for a christian metaphor. JFK went for the pseudo-martial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwPnJXXX5Ic
Lagniappe: (PH)
The road to wisdom? -- Well, it's plain
and simple to express:
Err
and err
and err again
but less
and less
and less.
EDIT2:
向前一小步
文明一大步
EDIT3: TK, UKlG in Dispossessed on youth being as suited for anarchy as they are for military service...
I feel (we're talking about instinct here) it's both: nonsense, to be practised over a lifetime. Apollo/the Emperor says nonsense, Dionysus/Slaanesh says "yes".
There's probably a lot to be said for more education in partial orders: Saturnalia / Carnaval / Cabaret all invert some things but leave other [eigen?]things invariant: mirror Cartman is kind and helpful, but mirror Spock and Spock are the same (up to facial hair).
In https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tUctFu46_c , is the singer promising the middlebrow, den sogenannten Gebildeten, den Gläubigen der „modernen Ideen“, that they have nothing to lose but their antichains?
Those who force total order (the high and the low in FWN's model) are as mistaken as those who force total noncomparability (the mid, in whose worst instincts, total equality « différence engendre haine » is forced)?
Interesting that FWN uses the metaphor of dirty water when extolling biblical reverence; in the buddhist (and materialist, via hydrophobic surfaces) tradition the lotus has nothing to fear from muddy water, it just rolls off "like water off a duck's back". Maybe that's a way to test ideals? PKD said reality is that which doesn't go away when you stop believing in it; a respectable ideal should still seem worthwhile even when you're making fun of it?
* Pope "Paco" probably worries less about Madonna/whore dichotomies than that Princess Peach gets way more pixels.
23 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 61.5 ms ] threadNever thought I'd miss William Buckley but at least he was a literate intellect, capable of discerning the beams in his own eyes as he battered the motes of the left.
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext...
> ...such men, being unable to carry their prosperity, and thinking themselves superior to the rest of mankind, despise other people, although their own conduct is no better than another's. The fact is that they try to imitate the great-souled man without being really like him, and only copy him in what they can, reproducing his contempt for others but not his virtuous conduct.
Exercise: score Trump against Aristotle's desiderata for the "great-souled man" in the Nichomachean Ethics
[EDIT: I get ~1/25, giving full marks for "He must be open both in love and in hate"]
Great souled foxes, great souled lions, great souled foxes with lion skin, great souled lions with fox-skins? Mongoose (“RL” examples allowed) ?)
[subsequente exercise would be applying scoring to Philodemus’ (note: fully cosmopolitan) patches]
Assuming everyone gets full marks except for necessary* dings:
* Those in skins are get dings from both sides (AB) but in order to play their public persona must have some desiderata added back. (they are also not living at someone else's will, or they wouldn't be wearing the skin)A: It is also characteristic of the great-souled man never to ask help from others
and to be haughty towards men of position and fortune,
He must be open both in love and in hate
and care more for the truth than for what people will think;
and speak and act openly
He will be incapable of living at the will of another, unless a friend,
He is not prone to admiration, since nothing is great to him.
He is no gossip,
B: He will not compete for the common objects of ambition,
or go where other people take the first place
He will be incapable of living at the will of another, unless a friend,
EDIT: Rikki, the valiant, the true, Tikki, with eyeballs of flame: pure lion (22); vs Nag & Nagaina: pure fox (15)
Note that as a good Victorian, Rikki goes where other people take the first place: ...he sat on all their laps one after the other, because every well-brought-up mongoose always hopes to be a house-mongoose some day and have rooms to run about in, and Rikki-tikki's mother (she used to live in the General's house at Segowlee) had carefully told Rikki what to do if ever he came across white men.
- (at the bush) RTT lion, Nagaina lion, Nag vulpine lion (...he wanted to get Rikki-tikki off his guard. So he dropped his head a little ... "Let us talk,"...)
- (bath-room) RTT lion, Nag lion
- (melon patch) RTT lion, Darzee's wife fox
- (verandah) RTT lion, Nagaina vulpine lion (I will go away and never come back; He had forgotten the egg. ... and Nagaina came nearer and nearer to it...)
- (rat-hole) RTT lion, Nagaina lion
I guess most likely in real life would've been the negative-sum end of a chess game: RTT and Nagaina would've killed each other's family before meeting, but Kipling does anticipate this, and has Darzee's wife report that Nagaina didn't follow her to the bush (maybe having been vulpine enough to be suspicious of Darzee's wife's "broken" wing; maybe just having seen the humans on the verandah?)
For someone whose current reputation is jingoistic, Kipling's female characters (pace Teddy's mother) here are more formidable than their mates.
Or maybe thats vulpine lions in your book?
(Compare orwell “offering struggle”)
It depends how openly: leonine foxes when less; vulpine lions when more. (if the 不 or even 後 don't notice words and deeds don't match, that's their problem) Note that Kipling, in trying to keep his protagonist heroic, fobbed off all the fraud on a henchbird. [when Rikki puts Nagaina in a fork with the last egg, (a) he had not planned to do so, and (b) his threat is forceful, not fraudulent]
more tk on offering struggle
— Isn't there something in living dangerously?
— There's a great deal in it. Men and women must have their adrenals stimulated from time to time.
— What?
— It's one of the conditions of perfect health. That's why we've made the V.P.S. treatments compulsory.
— V.P.S.?
— Violent Passion Surrogate. Regularly once a month. We flood the whole system with adrenin. It's the complete physiological equivalent of fear and rage. All the tonic effects of murdering Desdemona and being murdered by Othello, without any of the inconvenience.
Ps: went looking here on HN histories also for the ideological arrows (via Marion Milner) between Montaigne & Montesquieu*. similar to Borodin & Linebarger iyho? Alert me to de Maistre if necessary
*direct ideological ancestor of Jane Jacobs?
(I've written elsewhere than people can cue off of context-dependent grammars, but other mammals are limited to regexps; now that I think about it more, they may even mostly operate in the star-free first-order regime... [but thinking about that a bit more, I'd say most people also prefer limited logic cues])
Lagniappe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OEron4rXfk
EDIT: although I am interested in the idea of Fourier-like analyses for noncommutative semigroups? Also, zeta functions have something of the folding/unfolding origami nature to them, going between bulk and individual data?
Can you expand upon PC's commutative triangle by any chance?
(written here algebraically because HN* is a little unsupportive of the geometric.)* like the soldier who supposedly heard "Nōlī turbāre circulōs meōs"?
> "Dogs, would you live forever?" shouted Frederick the Great. "Yes," say our utopians, "let us live forever, and raise our level gradually."
he's within epsilon of Orwell's Tin Pacifists. But without both Bildung and VPS (I get my adrenalin dumps from sport*, and note that since I stopped fencing I suffer in winter from lack of regular VPS) there is very little attractive to:
— What do we want?
— Gradual change!
— When do we want it?
— In due course!
* there is a lot to be said for the kind of tournament weekend where during the days everyone tries to kill each other, and then in the evenings everyone parties together — almost like a "pie in the sky when you die" the vikings would've wished for?
EDIT: note that WJ channels Plato's Guardians. I don't know what metaphor JEC used but suspect he would've reached for a christian metaphor. JFK went for the pseudo-martial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwPnJXXX5Ic
Lagniappe: (PH)
EDIT2: EDIT3: TK, UKlG in Dispossessed on youth being as suited for anarchy as they are for military service...TIGR: Heinlein (inadvertently, via the old man of USMC?) channelled FdG!
“>Come on you apes! Do you wanta live forever?”
(Seems to me everyone we cited above were fully or almost fully vulpine? Bringing us back to the Wielandt convo..)
This reminds me to check whether the founders of Zen were warriors before they were monks..
I feel (we're talking about instinct here) it's both: nonsense, to be practised over a lifetime. Apollo/the Emperor says nonsense, Dionysus/Slaanesh says "yes".
We ought to both revere, and R34*, our ideals: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmbdsfaU8AA0lrY.jpg
There's probably a lot to be said for more education in partial orders: Saturnalia / Carnaval / Cabaret all invert some things but leave other [eigen?]things invariant: mirror Cartman is kind and helpful, but mirror Spock and Spock are the same (up to facial hair).
In https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tUctFu46_c , is the singer promising the middlebrow, den sogenannten Gebildeten, den Gläubigen der „modernen Ideen“, that they have nothing to lose but their antichains?
Those who force total order (the high and the low in FWN's model) are as mistaken as those who force total noncomparability (the mid, in whose worst instincts, total equality « différence engendre haine » is forced)?
Interesting that FWN uses the metaphor of dirty water when extolling biblical reverence; in the buddhist (and materialist, via hydrophobic surfaces) tradition the lotus has nothing to fear from muddy water, it just rolls off "like water off a duck's back". Maybe that's a way to test ideals? PKD said reality is that which doesn't go away when you stop believing in it; a respectable ideal should still seem worthwhile even when you're making fun of it?
* Pope "Paco" probably worries less about Madonna/whore dichotomies than that Princess Peach gets way more pixels.
Nietzsche has been castigated as the master of casual contempt
https://archive.is/Fg5Hi
(and thx for GCL [not Dijkstra's guarded command language!]; yet another example of pre-internet going for the vibe?)